Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow In-Game Tiers - Reboot

Of course, if we wanted to restandardize our tests to be at lower levels (closer to 45-50 than to 50-60), I'd be happy to, and that would certainly bring my tests/observations closer to yours.
The Clefairy data is very helpful!

That being said, if it's possible, can you try and get your levels to 45-50 in future runs? While you aren't breaking the rules by going above 50 or so, In two of my runs I was generally 50-52 throughout the League, and nowhere close to 55 or even 60. Usually, my 8 Rare Candies (yeah, I usually only pick up the ones I see naturally rather than hunting every last one) close the gap from my team roughly being at level 48.

Additionally, I don't think we should be fighting every trainer, even though I said we need to in the OP. Really, you can skip the Seafoam - Cinnabar ones (though.I fight a couple if I need filler EXP at the very end) AND the Lavender - Fuschia ones, though I have done the latter in my first run - it was probably helped with my Pokemon in the Slow EXP group (Snorlax, Gyarados). Generally, I fight about 80% of them, including everyone in Silph Co. I think I also skipped some Mansion ones in my first run?

As for wild grinding - I think it's only really a thing you should need to do pre-Rival 2 (you have no Repel for Mt. Moon, some mons you catch pre-Cerulean need levels for Rival 2) but other than that it is likely only an occasional thing to top levels off, as the midgame has plenty of mooks for a reasonable team.

TLDR: don't feel the need to hunt every mook down, and let's try to have level 50s around the Elite Four if possible.
 
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Something worth considering if you want to conserve your Thunderbolt TM in Red or Blue is to trade your Pikachu to Yellow, level it to 26 in that game, then trade it back and evolve it into Raichu. Not sure whether that's worth raising it a tier since it requires a specific game plus trading, but it's definitely an interesting option.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Something worth considering if you want to conserve your Thunderbolt TM in Red or Blue is to trade your Pikachu to Yellow, level it to 26 in that game, then trade it back and evolve it into Raichu. Not sure whether that's worth raising it a tier since it requires a specific game plus trading, but it's definitely an interesting option.
Trading in in-game tier lists is generally considered only for the purposes of evolving trade evos and not for outside help (as this case can be considered). Staying within the game as much as possible in the games is preferable, imo, since it doesn't open gray areas when it comes to policymaking.
 
Trading in in-game tier lists is generally considered only for the purposes of evolving trade evos and not for outside help (as this case can be considered). Staying within the game as much as possible in the games is preferable, imo, since it doesn't open gray areas when it comes to policymaking.
Couldn’t you trade your Yellow Pikachu to R/B after learning Thunderbolt and evolve it there, then trade it back?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Couldn’t you trade your Yellow Pikachu to R/B after learning Thunderbolt and evolve it there, then trade it back?
Trade evolution refers to evolving something through the trade itself, aka Kadabra, Haunter, Graveler, and Machoke. Evolving Pikachu there (with some Thunderstone you got at later point) is still outside help and so is transferring TMs from there, which, again, is not generally considered in most lists.
 
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Long overdue update to my run. Sorry for the wait, but I didn't have much time lately due to RL constraints.

HP/Atk/Def/Spe/Spc
Spearow: 15/9/15/11/5 Peck/Fury Attack/Leer/Growl->Swift (Lavender)
Oddish: 9/5/6/2/13 Absorb/Poisonpowder->Acid(late Rock Tunnel)/Stun Spore/Sleep Powder
Mr. Mime: 9/1/12/2/5 Confusion/Barrier->Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave/Seismic Toss
(calculated with https://tewky.github.io/dvcalculator/)

Both Fearow and Mr. Mime started the fight one level lower, but leveled up after Pidgeotto. A retry with a Rare Candy for both showed little difference in their performance in the Pidgeotto match-up, hence I used the higher level for reference.

Fearow(25): Clean sweep. Fury Attack 4-5HKOs Pidgeotto, 3HKOs Raticate and Kadabra and 5HKOs Ivysaur; so everything is 2HKOd with a chance to be OHKOed, and nothing deals significant damage.

Gloom(23): Horrendous match-up because Absorb is resisted by Pidgeotto and Ivysaur. Raticate is beatable and funnily enough one can attempt to cheese Kadabra with Sleep Powder (Confusion fails to 2HKO thanks to the Absorb heals, and Absorb KOs in a reasonable-ish amount of time (5-6HKO) )

Mr. Mime(22): Clean sweep. Confusion 2HKOs everything bar Kadabra, which gets 3HKOed by Seismic Toss. Raticates Hyper Fang barely misses the 3HKO.

A very high-variance match-up for basically all of my pokés due to Raichu's randomness and high crit rate.

Fearow(26): Fury Attack 4HKOs Voltorb and 3HKOs Pikachu.
Fearow outspeeds and takes 7 Fury Attack hits to KO Raichu. Raichu OHKOs with Thunderbolt and just Thunderbolt: Thundershock barely fails to 2HKO unless it criticals (~75%).
Note that a lv. 24 Fearow likely needs more Fury Attack hits to KO Raichu, resulting in a significantly worse match-up.

Gloom(24): Absorb 4HKOs Voltorb, but Voltorb outspeeds and can 4HKO with Sonicboom after Absorb regen. Sleep Powder can make this MU safe though.
Pikachu is 3HKOd by Absorb and probably heals Gloom to near full.
Raichu is dealt with the fastest via Poisonpowder+Absorb since its attacks are resisted (Critical Thunderbolt barely 2HKOs, Thunderbolt itself is a 5HKO after Absorb regen). Given how Poisopowder is the best strat here, you probably guessed right that this takes forever, though.

Mr. Mime(23): Confusion 2HKOs both Voltorb and Pikachu.
Seismic Toss is a 3HKO on Raichu (Confusion deals a lot less), but Raichu 2HKOs with Thunderbolt and OHKOs with a crit. Mr.Mime does live Sonicboom + Thunderbolt though.

I regret that in a moment of clumsiness I didn't teach Light Screen (which Mr. Mime learned at lv. 23) even if I would've replaced it with Thunderbolt immediately after Surge anyway. This leaves me with the open question whether it'd be worth it to spend a turn setting up Light Screen (probably on Pikachu). Pro: Thunderbolt deals less damage and Pikachu ideally doesn't do much to you. Con: Pikachu may paralyze you and Light Screen does not help against crits.

Fearow(29): A Swift battle: 2HKO on Pidgeotto, 2-3HKO on Gyarados (range), 2HKO (almost OHKO) on Growlithe, OHKO on Kadabra, 2HKO on Ivysaur.

Gloom(29): Winnable match-ups across the board, but a clean sweep probably is not happening because it gets outsped by every ´mon Red has and would take too much damage overall.
Pidgeotto gets barely 3HKOd by Acid (probably a range), Gust/Quick Attack are an 8HKO, Sand Attack is as annoying as ever.
Gyarados avoids being 4HKOd by Acid unless Gloom gets a defense drop. Dragon Rage (in my run) did not 2HKO, Bite without Leer ora critical is a 6HKO.
Growlithe gets 2HKOd by Acid, Ember barely fails to 6HKO. Probably the best ´mon to heal on if necessary, despite Ember's burn chance.
Kadabra gets 2HKOed by Acid while barely 3HKOing back with Confusion.
Ivysaur is 3HKOed by Acid and has no means to do any damage back to Gloom.

Mr. Mime(28, ->29 after Gyarados): Outspeeds and OHKOs Pidgeotto and Gyarados with Thunderbolt. TBolt also almost OHKOs Growlithe (might be a range) and 2HKOs Kadabra (mostly due to level difference). Confusion 2HKOs Ivysaur.

Current impressions:
-Fearow's high stats for this point in the game really carry its stagnant movepool, even though towards the end of this part its lacking moves become apparent by missing some KOs on route mooks (specifically Peck OHKOs on Grass-types, but also mediocre Fury Attack damage sometimes leading to Fearow taking more damage than you would like). Swift came at just the right time to pick up the slack, and with Double-Edge and Fly I am in good spirits for what there is to come. My estimation of B still stands.

-Gloom has been a much needed upgrade over Oddish to somehow keep pace. I still had to hand-pick opponents for it to grind on instead of it actively being able to contribute in route fights. The recently learned Acid has been a very welcome relief for it in that regard, and has me being hopeful for the matchups to come, but for the performance in the earlier part of the update I have to stick with D at the moment.

-Mr. Mime has been performing admirably so far. STAB Confusion allowed it to contribute from the get-go, and Outsider EXP means that not only did it catch up in no time, but I currently have to be careful not to overlevel it, which is a Good Thing. Its contributions in major battles have been very good so far as well, though a lot of that is to be attributed to TMs Thunderbolt and Seismic Toss. Overall, Mr. Mime feels like an A to me so far.
 
Just stopping by to say that Yellow Pikachu is much, much worse than I gave it credit for a few posts ago and there is no way it is going in B alongside the RB version of Pikachu. I can't recall when I used RB Pikachu last (if at all much) but regardless Yellow Pikachu is honestly at home with gutter trash, and is maybbbbbbbbbbbbe only C if you're really, really into spamming Seismic Toss for decades.

Seriously, I'm halfway through the game and unless Gen 1 Ai is funky, Pikachu falls flat in like almost every remotely serious battle outside of the rival stuff just about. I'm honestly thinking D because of how much it just...fails as an Electric type due to the terrible stats that fall off FAST. It can MAYBE be C but...when Seismic Toss is your consistent damage for like...forever in major fights (3HKOing stuff btw), it's just not good.

Thundershock is nice for all of two seconds until you slowly start 3HKOing all but the lamest mooks (or Waters) with it, and really, not a whole lot is weak to it until the S.S. Anne from memory. Rock/Grounds, Grasses, and Electric types constantly pester Pikachu throughout the mook base too. if you want an idea of just how weak Pikachu is...it leaves Raticate ten levels lower alive with Thunderbolt. Yeah.

Also when you get Thunderbolt at level 26...Rock Tunnel happens so...yeah you can't even use it well. And when the major battles finally let you Thunderbolt spam...Pikachu has awful bulk anyway so I doubt it's sweeping.

As for updates on my run, RB is still on hold atm, and I might just update at the end of both runs for convenience sake. Nidoqueen feels like an A but honestly, aside from the meh Scratch period, it generally performs about as well as King does. Clefable just owns with Mega Punch and everything pokes it for like nothing, similar to Queen. Granted higher encounter rate in Yellow. Hitmonlee I don't have much of an opinion on yet (swept Giovanni and Rival, flopped to Erika) and I'm not sure how the next few fights will go.

Oh, and Squirtle might drop a tier in Yellow as well - you get it after Lt. Surge at level 10, it's just gonna suck to train even with Rock Tunnel coming up.
 
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Oh, and Squirtle might drop a tier in Yellow as well - you get it after Lt. Surge at level 10, it's just gonna suck to train even with Rock Tunnel coming up.
I'm kinda mixed on Yellow Squirtle in B. Aside from the first few levels of switch training it, it's pretty easy to train with Bubble Beam. And you can probably get a few levels naturally without going out of your way if you save the trainers east of Vermillion until after you get it. Not against the move either since RB Squirtle is certainly smoother to use. But I also noticed Magikarp is also A. Not denying Gyarados is a beast, but you have to sink more time into it and I would only start leveling it once I had access to the day care. Getting the levels Squirtle needs to get prepped for Rock Tunnel isn't that bad; it pretty much closes the level gap from there.
 
I'm kinda mixed on Yellow Squirtle in B. Aside from the first few levels of switch training it, it's pretty easy to train with Bubble Beam. And you can probably get a few levels naturally without going out of your way if you save the trainers east of Vermillion until after you get it. Not against the move either since RB Squirtle is certainly smoother to use. But I also noticed Magikarp is also A. Not denying Gyarados is a beast, but you have to sink more time into it and I would only start leveling it once I had access to the day care. Getting the levels Squirtle needs to get prepped for Rock Tunnel isn't that bad; it pretty much closes the level gap from there.
That is true.

But it should be known I actually wasn’t sold on A Gyarados myself. I thought it was in limbo between A and B due to the Magikarp period, the TMs Gyarados wants, and the fact you just don’t quite OHKO much toward endgame. So I’m not necessarily opposed to seeing Magikarp in B either. We need more opinions on Magikarp if possible.

Squirtle...it could maybe go in A in Yellow. I’m not quite sure though. It’s a notable availability loss and missing out on Misty really sucks considering Wartortle is one of the better choices for her.
 
I'd like to start a discussion again on Charmander to B. I'm going to compare it to squirtle, the posterboy of A rank now that it has been rejected to be S.
(1) Gym matchups: Other than sabrina, charmander performs worse in every major matchup compared to squirtle.

Brock: I didn't use a potion but charmander at lvl 12 has a good chance to lose the matchup between geodude's tackle and onix's bide chip. Squirtle meanwhile solos at lvl 8 meaning you can train your normal types n nidoran on the routes without issue. I won't call this a bad matchup for mander but squirtle is obviously far better here.

Misty: Pretty obvious how wartortle is much better here.

I'd like to state that beating these two gyms r pretty important due to being unskippable unlike later guys like erika and surge.

Lt surge: Both charmeleon and wart loses to raichu but beats the electric. Dig meleon fares better here but dig is a super contested tm. Slight edge given to charmeleon due to the possibility though considering meleon lives a tbolt

Erika: Even with ice beam, wart seems to be a no according to other runmers. But Charmeleon isn't good either due to ember being dog shit. Equal matchup.

Koga: Zard has slash now but due to the poison types' high level and defense, blastoise is better here with surf giving you less opportunities to get exploded by weezing. You can go and fetch fire blast from cinnabar but the route is filled with waters, the levels r high and you need to get surf in fuchsia first so quite the detour to my eyes.

Sabrina: Wow zard is better here for once! I can't remember blastoise's progress but i imagine zard's ability to outspeed and slash past zam gives the dragon an edge here.

Blaine: blastoise is much better but the fire types do not attack zard with normal moves so zard does well too. If the ai can attack, it cannot sweep without a potion due to the damage racking up.

Giovanni: Sweep for blastoise but zard is actually pretty good here due to fire blast's sheer power. Cannot ko anything other than duggy tho so you can't sweep.

Lorelei: zard is terrible here, only beating jynx. I know ppl have said otherwise but i cannot get how blastoise will fail to beat at least slowbro, cloyster and jynx. Dewgong perhaps the ai can go wrong with growl and rest but slowbro has water gun, jynx has thrash and cloyster has supersonic as their best chances when blastoise at least 4koes back. Tedious perhaps but not more tedious as charmander's matchup against brock for sure.

Bruno: Both r equal cuz onix suck. Hell, i even want to give zard an edge here due to being immune to machamp's fissure.

Agatha: Similar matchup but zard has the slight edge due to being faster than haunter, giving it a less chance to get haxed.

Lance: Obviously, blastoise is a lot better here with an ice move, zard can beat the dragonairs and thats it.

Blue: Similar matchup but zard no longer outspeeds zam this time making it an even matchups for both starters. Zard doesn't like rhydon, eggy is more annoying than arcanine and blastoise is annoying to teammates with blizzard but gyarados' threat equalizes the balance enough that blastoise only has a slight edge.

Considering that blastoise has six clearly better boss matchups out of thirteen (brock, misty, blaine, giovanni, lorelei and lance) compared to zard's sabrina, i'd say its fair to differentiate their ranks. But what about route cleaning? Surely, slash will favor charmeleon right? Well,

Early game to brock:Charmander has a clear edge here due to ember meaning it can't get poisoned by pesky weedles.

To misty: Wartortles improved power has made bugs trivial so the matchup is roughly equal except for the rock and grass trainers. Do note that unlike mander, wartortle has mega punch to overpower the grasses.

To surge: wartortle got bubblebeam here making it clearly the better choice in the routes. Mander on the other hand struggles with the fire and water types in S.S. anne. Ember has also start to become an abysmal move, making me recall about a moment when ember failed to 2hko an oddish forcing me to return to the pokemon center to heal the status. This is also why manders advantage over grass types is far less useful than wartortle's edge over rock and ground types, they don't ko and the statuses are nasty.

To erika: Both are mediocre in this period but meleon is far worse due to embers shittiniess, the rock tunnel and the water trainers below lavender town.

To koga: Charmeleon finally gets slash at lvl 33. The things is it doesn't quite hit hard due to charmeleon's low attack and depending on route, it can turn out that you're supposed to hit koffings with slash, leading only to 2koes. But of cuz,slash >>>> bubblebeam so charmeleon finally becomes clearly better. For three levels at least, blastoise instantly gets surf in fuchsia, giving it an equally powerful attack that isn't resisted by rock types and has super effective coverage.

To sabrina: Zard should be overleveled enough that surf being a special move doesn't matter.

To blaine: Same with sabrina,zard too high leveled to matter. If you're passing here early to get the fire blast tm, keep in mind zard doesn't like the abundance of swimmers in both routes to cinnabar. Slash only koes the mooks, not the fully evolved mons (even at like lvl 42) and the routes are filled with these boys.

To elite four: Zard finally gains flamethrower around here and thus becomes slightly better in this period. Though blastoise with blizzard /ice bwam and surf should be roughly equal

So according to the logs, from about lvl 20 to 33, meleon has a dead period terrible enough to mandate dig (which i used btw, i just kept spamming embers to check if digless meleon could survive in this period). Meleons slash advantage is trivial since its only for around three levels and even with slash, its not a route killer, being roughly as strong as kingler's strength. So, you're not killing anything other than mooks and bulkier stuff like marowak can even take two. Compared to squirtle, i'd say charmanders route cleaning is clearly worse with the only superior instances being the brief viridian forest and pre surf period.

Tldr: For a pokemon with six clearly better gym matchups and better route performance, blastoise to me clearly should be a tier above zard.
 
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Koga: Zard has slash now but due to the poison types' high level and defense, blastoise is better here with surf giving you less opportunities to get exploded by weezing. You can go and fetch fire blast from cinnabar but the route is filled with waters, the levels r high and you need to get surf in fuchsia first so quite the detour to my eyes.
Regarding the Koga match-up, you need to defeat Koga in order to get Fire Blast, since the Soul Badge enables the usage of Surf, and you get Fire Blast at the Cinnabar Gym. However, Charizard should do fine with Dig. The Earthquake TM is also available at this point in case the player didn't give them Dig (or wants another Ground-type move for some reason)

Hada Yaba said:
To blaine: Same with sabrina,zard too high leveled to matter. If you're passing here early to get the fire blast tm, keep in mind zard doesn't like the abundance of swimmers in both routes to cinnabar. Slash only koes the mooks, not the fully evolved mons (even at like lvl 42) and the routes are filled with these boys.
You can get from Pallet Town to Cinnabar without facing a single battle. If you're sequence breaking, I don't see why a player wouldn't choose to do this, or why it should be a negative against Charizard.
 
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Regarding the Koga match-up, you need to defeat Koga in order to get Fire Blast, since the Soul Badge enables the usage of Surf, and you get Fire Blast at the Cinnabar Gym. However, Charizard should do fine with Dig. The Earthquake TM is also available at this point in case the player didn't give them Dig (or wants another Ground-type move for some reason)

You can get from Pallet Town to Cinnabar without facing a single battle. If you're sequence breaking, I don't see why a player wouldn't choose to do this, or why it should be a negative against Charizard.
You are correct, i forgot surf is only after koga. But this only proves my point imo, considering that both dig and earthquake are contested tms, i'd still give the edge to blastoise here.

It has to be my habit of fighting everyone that made me not realize you can skip everyone before blaine. But now that fire blast is unavailable before koga, i don't find a reason to sequence break because there r no relevant targets i can think of to warrant going out of your way to get fire blast.
I wasn't necessarily holding this as a negative from the start, just as a sidenote in case you're sequence breaking so i believe my general consenus still stands.
 
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I'll agree on the Charmander to B move if Squirtle is in A. The performance vs the early gyms plus being stuck with Ember for STAB for a long time makes it a notch below A in my opinion. Because of the lack of fire power, it commonly misses out on one shotting grass types and gets hit with status moves.

It can use Slash and Dig / Earthquake to compensate, but everything else in A seem to have good-great STAB options for when they need them throughout the game. Minus Gengar, which has the TMs for its complete moveset available upon getting it.
 
Bulbasaur not being S is pretty shameful. 165 no razor leafs starting at level 30 is ridic, not to mention it solos the first three gyms with ease.
 
Bulbasaur not being S is pretty shameful. 165 no razor leafs starting at level 30 is ridic, not to mention it solos the first three gyms with ease.
S-ranks basically smash through the entire game with minimal support. Bulbasaur is awesome in early boss fights, but its sweeping ability drops dramatically after Surge and it doesn’t clear routes well in general. 100%-crit Razor Leaf is great against Pokémon that don’t resist it, but the midgame is full of opponents that tank it comfortably. Bulbasaur can also outlast lots of opponents with Leech Seed (+ Toxic), but this takes way longer than just blasting through with the coverage or raw power of Nidoking/Clefable/Alakazam.

From my experience, the only lategame opponents that Bulbasaur handles pretty comfortably on its own, without grinding for Sleep Powder or spamming items, are Giovanni and Bruno, neither of whom are particularly threatening in general.
 

Plague von Karma

Diolch am eich amser!
is a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
Mechanic Glitches Mechanic glitches are being considered for this list, though overworld glitches (such as MissingNo.) are not. The main mechanic glitches worth noting are the following:
  • All 100% accuracy moves have a 1/256 chance of missing in RBY without additional modifiers. Swift in Japanese versions also can miss.
  • Hyper Beam won't recharge if it KOs an opponent.
  • Leech Seed and Toxic both use the same damage algorithm. If the target of Leech Seed is also under the effect of Toxic (or was under that effect and healed itself with Rest), Leech Seed damage and healing increase each turn.
  • Pokemon with high base Speed land critical hits more often. If a Pokemon uses a high-critical hit move, it is almost guaranteed to critical hit since the critical hit ratio is multiplied by eight.
  • Related to the above, critical hits ignore your stat boosts. For example, a +2 Attack critical hit Slash deals the same as Slash landing a critical hit without Attack boosts.
  • Counter works only when hit by Normal and Fighting-type moves (and is triggered by healing items).
  • Body Slam cannot paralyze Normal types.
  • Seismic Toss hits Ghost-types. Similarly, Night Shade hits Normal and Psychic types.
  • Freeze is permanent and is only removed with Haze or being hit by a Fire-type move that can cause a burn (or use a healing item)
  • The game will misinform you about type matchups. For example, Fighting moves hit Pidgey neutrally, but the game will tell you it was not very effective. This is cause the game doesn't see the second type that makes it neutral
  • Psychic-types are immune to Ghost-type moves.
  • Wrap, Fire Spin, and co. will prevent a Pokemon from using moves till it frees itself from the effects.
  • Waking up from sleep is counted as full turn, thus a Pokemon does not use a move when it wakes up.
  • Sleep lasts 1-7 turns in RBY and this counter is not reset upon switching out, However, once you get the Poke Flute, Sleep mostly becomes a non-issue as it can be reused infinitely in battle.
  • Focus Energy actually decreases the chance of landing critical hits.
For more information, see: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_glitches_in_Generation_I. The above list is simply the ones most people should know.
Thought I would improve the Mechanics Glitches with some more clarity. I left some comments in purple.
Mechanic glitches are being considered for this list, though overworld glitches (such as MissingNo.) are not. The main mechanic glitches worth noting are the following:
  • All moves in RBY are calculated with accuracy out of 256, but the numbers do not consider this. This gives a roughly .2 to .4% universal reduction in accuracy. As such, moves with "100%" accuracy become 99.6%, making it a 1/256 chance of missing. Thunder, a move with 178/256 accuracy, effectively has 69.5% accuracy. For more information, a Japanese page has a good list here. (need to find an English site)
  • Hyper Beam won't recharge if it KOs an opponent or breaks a Substitute.
  • Leech Seed and Toxic both use the same damage algorithm. If the target of Leech Seed is also under the effect of Toxic (or was under that effect and healed itself with Rest), Leech Seed damage and healing increase each turn.
  • Pokemon with high base Speed land critical hits more often. If a Pokemon uses a high-critical hit move, it is almost guaranteed to critical hit since the critical hit ratio is multiplied by eight.
  • Related to the above, critical hits ignore you and your opponent's stat boosts. For example, a +2 Attack critical hit Slash deals the same as Slash landing a critical hit without Attack boosts. In addition, the critical hit damage multiplier caps out at just a bit before 2x, making it effectively worse than a Swords Dance boost.
  • Counter works only when hit by Normal and Fighting-type moves (and is triggered by healing items). The damage stored also doesn't reset upon an opponent switching out or experiencing full paralysis, leading to some pretty wacky interactions.
  • Pokemon with the same type as a move with an additional effect cannot be affected by it. For example, Body Slam cannot paralyze Normal types, and Blizzard cannot freeze Ice-types.
  • Seismic Toss hits Ghost-types. Similarly, Night Shade hits Normal and Psychic-types.
  • Freeze is permanent and is only removed with Haze, being hit by a Fire-type move that can cause a burn, or using a healing item.
  • The game will misinform you about type matchups. For example, Fighting moves hit Pidgey neutrally, but the game will tell you it was not very effective. This is cause the game doesn't see the second type that makes it neutral.
  • Psychic-types are immune to Lick (it's the only offensive Ghost-type move other than Night Shade)
  • Bug-types are hit super effectively by Poison-type moves and vice versa. As such, Poison Sting from Weedle will hit another for 4x effectiveness, and a Twineedle from Beedrill will hit Muk for 2x damage.
  • Wrap, Fire Spin, and co. will prevent a Pokemon from using moves till it frees itself from the effects.
  • Waking up from sleep is counted as full turn, thus a Pokemon does not use a move when it wakes up.
  • Sleep lasts 1-7 turns in RBY and this counter is not reset upon switching out. However, once you get the Poke Flute, Sleep mostly becomes a non-issue as it can be reused infinitely in battle. It also takes an entire turn for a Pokemon to wake up.
  • Focus Energy actually quarters the chance of landing critical hits.
  • Struggle can't affect Normal-types.
  • Substitute only blocks moves that cause Confusion; Confuse Ray and Supersonic for example. In addition, confusion damage applies to the opponent's Substitute, and you can counter damage taken by your own. Pokemon using Self-Destruct or Explosion on a Substitute will not be KOed.
For more information, see: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_glitches_in_Generation_I. The above list is simply the ones most people should know.
Feel free to criticise.
 
S-ranks basically smash through the entire game with minimal support. Bulbasaur is awesome in early boss fights, but its sweeping ability drops dramatically after Surge and it doesn’t clear routes well in general. 100%-crit Razor Leaf is great against Pokémon that don’t resist it, but the midgame is full of opponents that tank it comfortably. Bulbasaur can also outlast lots of opponents with Leech Seed (+ Toxic), but this takes way longer than just blasting through with the coverage or raw power of Nidoking/Clefable/Alakazam.

From my experience, the only lategame opponents that Bulbasaur handles pretty comfortably on its own, without grinding for Sleep Powder or spamming items, are Giovanni and Bruno, neither of whom are particularly threatening in general.
That's not my experience. I know Body Slam is a highly contested TM but Double Edge isn't so Bulba gets at least one. That's perfect neutral coverage right there, outside of the ghosts I guess. Then take your pick of Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Toxic, and Swords Dance and you have an unkillable beast that does plenty of his own damage.

Doesn't have very hot performances against Sabrina and Blaine, I suppose, though the latter is a joke that gets blasted by any underleveled water type as is.

As soon as level 32 you're firing off 165-bp Razor Leafs with 25 pp off a whopping 100 special. Even resisted, it hits hard.
 
That's not my experience. I know Body Slam is a highly contested TM but Double Edge isn't so Bulba gets at least one. That's perfect neutral coverage right there, outside of the ghosts I guess. Then take your pick of Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Toxic, and Swords Dance and you have an unkillable beast that does plenty of his own damage.

Doesn't have very hot performances against Sabrina and Blaine, I suppose, though the latter is a joke that gets blasted by any underleveled water type as is.

As soon as level 32 you're firing off 165-bp Razor Leafs with 25 pp off a whopping 100 special. Even resisted, it hits hard.
Venusaur learns Sleep Powder so late that we shouldn't really factor that at all. You should be able to take on the Elite Four with a team of Lv 50 mons just fine.

What knocks Bulbasaur down in ranking is its poor route clearing potential in the Early-mid game. Most every trainer resists its low PP Vine Whip, leaving it with only Tackle up until the SS Anne. Save for Brock, Poison Powder and Leech Seed may as well be non-moves since they sap such a pathetic amount of health such that Tackling repeatedly is the better option. Its Quad weakness to Leech Life also puts it in a ton of trouble vs Zubats. Trainers and Rocket members using one can actually kick Bulba's ass, whereas most other mons (starter or not) don't even break a sweat to them. Giving Bulba Body Slam remedies all this, though it is a highly contested TM. Other factors against Bulba are its poor performance vs Sabrina, Agatha, and Lance, and giving your Rival a Gyarados for his team.

Bulbasaur has too big of a wind-up time to be considered S-Tier. Even when it does climb up its early game hurdle, its late game performance is great but not dominating. Sword Dance + Body Slam/Double-Edge/Hyper Beam is also not unique to Venusaur, and other mons like Victreebel and Vileplume can do the same thing (if not much better since they get Sleep Powder way earlier). B-Tier is a fitting, if not slightly generous placement for Venusaur.
 
Glanced at mechanics stuff. Changed the Lick thing. Maybe I'll find an English site soon.

I hate getting involved with Bulbasaur again, but...

As for Bulbasaur, the posts above affirming its B-tier placement are correct. Almost everyone in this thread who has used Bulbasaur agrees it is a B-tier Pokemon. Razor Leaf crits mean nothing when Venusaur is resisted practically everywhere. Really, aside from Misty and Lorelei, I struggle to find a concrete reason why I should pick Bulbasaur as a Grass-type.

If you are going to nominate something to a rank, you need more than a few sentences; please give some major battle logs or at least a few paragraphs. A lot of users in this thread have done this well. Stating facts most people already know (Bulbasaur beats the first three gyms, which imo is not notable besides Misty, Lt. Surge is a joke unless in Yellow) isn't adding anything productive to the discussion. Logs give concrete support for an argument and thus, a more valid nomination. I'm not trying to attack anyone, but rather steer people in the right direction in regard to testing and nominations.

Here were my logs for Bulbasaur earlier in the thread, for reference.

Logs also don't necessarily have to be as in-depth as mine either, even a paragraph or so for each major battle can work, like LordDirtyO does. The more detailed the better of course, but RBY Ai is about as smart as a box of hammers so I can understand the brief summaries.
 
Old response but
Pokemon with the same type as a move with an additional effect cannot be affected by it. For example, Body Slam cannot paralyze Normal types, and Blizzard cannot freeze Ice-types.
This is only true for status infliction like Paralysis and Freezing. Moves like Psychic still have a chance to drop Special when used on a Psychic-type.
The game will misinform you about type matchups. For example, Fighting moves hit Pidgey neutrally, but the game will tell you it was not very effective. This is cause the game doesn't see the second type that makes it neutral.
I would elaborate further on this since this isn't only regarding falsely stating not very effective. I don't know the best way to word this, but info can be found here.
Struggle can't affect Normal-types.
*Ghost-types.

Honestly, I would feel like this list should be split between "different mechanics" and "glitches" because some of these don't actually appear to be glitches.
 
Everyone, while I certainly appreciate the advice on my opening post, ultimately, most of that stuff likely won't be in the final version of the article, so it's not all that important to really talk about. The crit rates, the Rock Tunnel map, the glitches and mechanics - that's more for convenience rather than something that will be in the article proper.

Ultimately, this list is to tier the Pokemon in Red, Blue, and Yellow. I simply put that stuff in to avoid a lot of potentially unnecessary questions by people who may not know a whole lot about the original games (they are old, archaic and quirky in mechanics, after all). Let's try and keep the discussion focused on the actual Pokemon.

I will continue my Yellow run (and hopefully the RB run I'm doing) eventually. I kinda just have burnout at the moment, but they are still on my radar.

I guess for a discussion point - what are everyone's thoughts on Magikarp? I thought it was borderline A / B when I used it.
 
After thinking it more throughly, I think that Magikarp should be in B Tier now that Squirtle has been firmly established in A. If we make a direct comparison between both of them, we realize that at similar investment both of them don't really perform all that different from each other, especially against bosses, with Squirtle contributing more against Surge (if given Dig) in exchange of Magikarp being better against Erika. There's a particular disadvantage of belonging to the Slow experience group that should probably be reflected in the tiering system, and that's that it takes a lot of experience (especially in later levels) to grow up. If we look at the experience chart and see how they perform at levels with equivalent experience points:

Lvl 20 Gyarados Bite vs. Lvl 21 Starmie: 14-17 (19.4 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 24 Wartortle Bite vs. Lvl 21 Starmie: 12-15 (16.6 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 24 Wartortle Mega Punch vs. Lvl 21 Starmie: 16-19 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 3% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 24 Wartortle Dig vs. Lvl 21 Starmie: 20-24 (27.7 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 21 Starmie Bubble Beam vs. Lvl 20 Gyarados: 9-11 (10.4 - 12.7%) -- possible 8HKO
Lvl 21 Starmie Bubble Beam vs. Lvl 24 Wartortle: 10-12 (11.9 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO

Lvl 22 Gyarados Bite vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 17-21 (20.9 - 25.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 22 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 24-29 (29.6 - 35.8%) -- 26.1% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 26 Wartortle Bite vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 16-19 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 26 Wartortle Mega Punch vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 21-25 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 26 Wartortle Body Slam vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 22-26 (27.1 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 26 Wartortle Dig vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 52-62 (64.1 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 24 Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 22 Gyarados: 112-132 (119.1 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 24 Raichu Thunder Shock vs. Lvl 22 Gyarados: 51-60 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 24 Raichu Thunder Shock vs. Lvl 26 Wartortle: 27-32 (30 - 35.5%) -- 18.8% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 24 Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 26 Wartortle: 61-72 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 26 Gyarados Bite vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 24-29 (29.6 - 35.8%) -- 26.1% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 26 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 34-40 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 30 Wartortle Bite vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 21-25 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 30 Wartortle Mega Punch vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 28-33 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 30 Wartortle Body Slam vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 29-35 (35.8 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 30 Wartortle Dig vs. Lvl 24 Raichu: 69-82 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 10.3% chance to OHKO

Lvl 24 Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 26 Gyarados: 95-112 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 17.9% chance to OHKO
Lvl 24 Raichu Thunder Shock vs. Lvl 26 Gyarados: 44-52 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 24 Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 30 Wartortle: 52-62 (50.4 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 24 Raichu Thunder Shock vs. Lvl 30 Wartortle: 25-30 (24.2 - 29.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO

Lvl 27 Gyarados Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Victreebel: 40-48 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 27 Gyarados Ice Beam vs. Lvl 24 Tangela: 45-54 (51.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 27 Gyarados Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Vileplume: 39-46 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 31 Wartortle Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Victreebel: 42-50 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 31 Wartortle Ice Beam vs. Lvl 24 Tangela: 49-58 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 31 Wartortle Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Vileplume: 42-50 (40 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 29 Victreebel Razor Leaf vs. Lvl 27 Gyarados on a critical hit: 36-43 (31.8 - 38%) -- 94.1% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Petal Dance vs. Lvl 27 Gyarados: 26-31 (23 - 27.4%) -- 53% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Mega Drain vs. Lvl 27 Gyarados: 16-19 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

Lvl 29 Victreebel Razor Leaf vs. Lvl 31 Wartortle on a critical hit: 83-98 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Petal Dance vs. Lvl 31 Wartortle: 56-66 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Mega Drain vs. Lvl 31 Wartortle: 32-38 (30.1 - 35.8%) -- 31.4% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 31 Gyarados Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Victreebel: 52-62 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- 94% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 31 Gyarados Ice Beam vs. Lvl 24 Tangela: 62-74 (73.8 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 31 Gyarados Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Vileplume: 52-62 (49.5 - 59%) -- 99.9% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 35 Wartortle Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Victreebel: 52-62 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- 94% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 35 Wartortle Ice Beam vs. Lvl 24 Tangela: 62-74 (73.8 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 35 Wartortle Ice Beam vs. Lvl 29 Vileplume: 52-62 (49.5 - 59%) -- 99.9% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 29 Victreebel Razor Leaf vs. Lvl 31 Gyarados on a critical hit: 33-39 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Petal Dance vs. Lvl 31 Gyarados: 23-28 (17.9 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Mega Drain vs. Lvl 31 Gyarados: 13-16 (10.1 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO

Lvl 29 Victreebel Razor Leaf vs. Lvl 35 Wartortle on a critical hit: 76-90 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Petal Dance vs. Lvl 35 Wartortle: 52-62 (44 - 52.5%) -- 19% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 29 Vileplume Mega Drain vs. Lvl 35 Wartortle: 32-38 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


Lvl 40 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 69-82 (65.7 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hydro Pump vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 87-103 (82.8 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 63-75 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hydro Pump vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 79-94 (49 - 58.3%) -- 99% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 49-58 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hydro Pump vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 62-73 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 5.7% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 45 Blastoise Surf vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 77-91 (73.3 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 81-96 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Surf vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 71-84 (44 - 52.1%) -- 15.3% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 90-106 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Surf vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 54-64 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 61-72 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 37 Koffing Sludge vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 22-27 (13.4 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO
Lvl 39 Muk Sludge vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 33-39 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Sludge vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 36-43 (22 - 26.3%) -- 8% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Self-Destruct vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 96-113 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 37 Koffing Sludge vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 17-21 (10.1 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
Lvl 39 Muk Sludge vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 26-31 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Sludge vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 28-34 (16.7 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Self-Destruct vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 73-86 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 45 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 86-102 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hydro Pump vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 108-127 (102.8 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 79-93 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hydro Pump vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 97-115 (60.2 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Surf vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 61-72 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hydro Pump vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 76-90 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 49 Blastoise Surf vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 89-105 (84.7 - 100%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 37 Koffing: 91-108 (86.6 - 102.8%) -- 20.5% chance to OHKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Surf vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 79-94 (49 - 58.3%) -- 99% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 39 Muk: 102-120 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Surf vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 62-73 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 5.7% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 43 Weezing: 68-80 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 37 Koffing Sludge vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 20-24 (10.9 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
Lvl 39 Muk Sludge vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 30-36 (16.4 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Sludge vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 33-39 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Self-Destruct vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 85-101 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 74.7% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 37 Koffing Sludge vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 16-19 (8.8 - 10.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 39 Muk Sludge vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 23-28 (12.7 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Sludge vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 26-31 (14.3 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Lvl 43 Weezing Self-Destruct vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 68-80 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 40 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 66-78 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 115-136 (106.4 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 45-54 (42.8 - 51.4%) -- 5.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 80-95 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 47-56 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 82-97 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 49-58 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 25-30 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 85-101 (63.4 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 40 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 43-51 (32 - 38%) -- 95.9% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 45 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 62-74 (57.4 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 73-86 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 109-129 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 44-52 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 51-61 (48.5 - 58%) -- 97.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 76-90 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 45-53 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 52-62 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 78-92 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 46-55 (34.3 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 23-28 (17.1 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 54-64 (40.2 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 28-33 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 81-96 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 41-49 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 60.9% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 38 Kadabra Psychic vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 41-49 (25.1 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 37 Mr. Mime Confusion vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 20-24 (12.2 - 14.7%) -- possible 7HKO
Lvl 38 Venomoth Psybeam vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 17-20 (10.4 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 43 Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 40 Gyarados: 41-49 (25.1 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 38 Kadabra Psychic vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 41-49 (24.5 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 37 Mr. Mime Confusion vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 20-24 (11.9 - 14.3%) -- possible 7HKO
Lvl 38 Venomoth Psybeam vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 17-20 (10.1 - 11.9%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 43 Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 45 Blastoise: 41-49 (24.5 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

Lvl 45 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 81-96 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 143-169 (132.4 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 57-67 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 100-118 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 74.4% chance to OHKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 58-69 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 20.9% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 102-121 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 31-37 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 65.5% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 61-72 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 53-63 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 45 Gyarados Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 106-125 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 49 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 71-84 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 83-98 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Kadabra: 124-146 (114.8 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 50-59 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 58-69 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 37 Mr. Mime: 86-102 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 51-60 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 59-70 (45 - 53.4%) -- 33.7% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 38 Venomoth: 89-105 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 52-62 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Body Slam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 27-32 (20.1 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 62-73 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 54.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Earthquake vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 31-37 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 65.5% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam: 92-109 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 49 Blastoise Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 43 Alakazam through Reflect: 46-55 (34.3 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 38 Kadabra Psychic vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 38-45 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Lvl 37 Mr. Mime Confusion vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 17-21 (9.3 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 38 Venomoth Psybeam vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 15-18 (8.2 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 43 Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 45 Gyarados: 38-45 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Lvl 38 Kadabra Psychic vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 38-45 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Lvl 37 Mr. Mime Confusion vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 17-21 (9.3 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 38 Venomoth Psybeam vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 16-19 (8.8 - 10.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 43 Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 49 Blastoise: 38-45 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Some of the levels suggested here are ridiculously overleveled for Squirtle, but that probably goes to show how much preference the Slow experience group needs. What I'm getting at is that outside of access to Thunderbolt (which is relevant mostly against Lorelei and Lance), Magikarp doesn't seem to be much better than Squirtle through the game if not given constant preference, whereas Squirtle has an availability lead and two important matches where it is the best option available (Brock, and Misty pre-Rival), which is why I think is enough to have Squirtle a tier over Magikarp. The B-Tier says that Pokémon that claim a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs yet have difficulties contributing efficiently to major fights belong there, and needing an experience surplus over other members of the team is something that fits that description to me.
 
I've been told by Turdterra that I can progress on my Charmander run, and I also have a run going on Yellow at the moment. Both are again in "when I feel like it" mode so I can't say when the logs will be posted, but I am certainly interested in seeing my thoughts on Charmander mostly.

Also, Charmander should not be dependent on Squirtle's ranking. At all. Squirtle is a bulky Water type that uses Surf and Ice Beam. Charizard is a moreso mixed attacker. They share no similarities beyond being starters. They are completely different Pokemon and should be treated as such. It's like saying "Tangela is a terrible Pokemon and thus should be ranked lower than Gengar, because Gengar is more effective in battle with Mega Drain and other moves," it makes no sense.

I wasn't a fan of Charmander's early game, but it should never be dropped just because Squirtle is only slightly more solid. Starters being in the same rank is nothing new. Torchic and Mudkip shared a tier in S in RSE for a while before the former was dropped. HGSS have both Totodile and Cyndaquil in A. If Charmander has deficiencies, that should be based on Charmander's shortcomings rather than Squirtle's positives. If Charmander is B, it is B, but another Pokemon's performance should never be a factor unless it's a weird scenario where you have to get an obscure mon like Cubone for the Machamp trade in Yellow.
 
Also, Charmander should not be dependent on Squirtle's ranking. At all. Squirtle is a bulky Water type that uses Surf and Ice Beam. Charizard is a moreso mixed attacker. They share no similarities beyond being starters. They are completely different Pokemon and should be treated as such.
I won't say its invalid at all to compare pokemons depending on the context. As i stated in the post, i'm using blastoise as the standard A tier pokemon to draw lines to determie if blastoise and zard should be in the same tier, mostly basing on their performance.

Overall assessment:
Squirtle is a great starter, but I don't feel like it's on the level of Abra and Nidoran Male (I still need to test Nidoran Female) and is a good fit for A tier.
Hopefully, i'm not strawmanning here by quoting one of yr old posts but i wanted to clarify that yr overall assessment is the point i was trying to make. Does zard rly have what it takes to be A rank if it has this much gap between it and blastoise?

Now the term 'this much gap' is arguable of course. (Thats what needs to be debated here) But according to my experience and calculations, blastoise have both a clear route performance (except for the brief stink in viridian) and 6 bosses advantage against charmander.

It's like saying "Tangela is a terrible Pokemon and thus should be ranked lower than Gengar, because Gengar is more effective in battle with Mega Drain and other moves," it makes no sense.
Lets think about it a different way "Tangela shouldn't be in the same tier as gengar because gar trivializes routes unlike tangela who is atrocious due to the numerous poisons in addition to having loads of better matchups (erika, koga, blaine, lorelei, agatha, bruno, lance, champion, literally anything)" Thus, it seems entirely reasonable to drop tangela to a lower tier here because anyone can clearly understand tangela doesn't have what it takes to be in gengar's tier. The exact rank where tangela should fall will once again depend on pokemon having similar performance to it (sth like dratini i assume?) After all, if gengar and tangela are the only two pokemon in the game, one will be S and the other will be A.

Of course, the difference isn't as clear cut between blastoise and charizard so i was making an argument here that squirtle isn't just a 'slightly more solid' option, that it has a clear advantage against charmander to question if they really should be in the same rank. Sure, it's best for a pokemon to be ranked according to its shortcomings and general performance (basically logs) but it doesn't seem justified to dismiss my argument as just thoughtlessly comparing the pokemons.
 
I love these types of lists. If you don't mind, I'll chime in with a little.

Hitmonchan has a case for E-tier and possibly the worst Pokemon in the game.
You of course get Hitmonchan at a decent level for the location, level 30 isn't bad for potentially right after Rock Tunnel, plus having a nice 105 base attack paired with 76 base speed means it should hit hard and outspeed some of the game along with how early it is compared to some others. It does hit hard if everything goes in its favor, but that rarely happens with the boss battles in the game. Plus in the latter half of the game, trainer battles pack a Pokemon that usually has a special move, which if relying on accuracy of Mega Punch, leaves a person running to heal a lot. Once Strength is available, use that, unless of course, you have Body Slam for it.

The normal trainers can be won over by using the Mega Punch TM, the Strength HM or if possible, the Body Slam TM (Which isn't a hard thing for most Pokemon in this game...). It is the boss fights where this mon has little to any use besides fodder. Though of note, most routes after Koga can pretty easily kill it, gotta love that 35 base special mixed with a bad health stat.

Erika packs two grass/poison types that can easily kill it with their special moves in two turns, while you might be able to kill them in two turns if you are 5 or 6 levels higher. Koga will just annoy you with Smokescreen on the two Koffings while potentially killing it, Muk sets up and ignores its very existence, and Weezing has fun (this actually depends on a lot factors, mostly your patience or the AI killing itself and you.). Sabrina laughs in haiku. Blaine will more than likely burn it alive, but can go in your favor if Fire Blast pulls a miss, that's if you get past the Rapidash. Giovanni, actually has a even matchup until Hitmonchan has to tap out.

Lorelei loses Dewgong due to it spamming Rest. (might be able to kill Cloyster with some luck.). Bruno will lose his Onix(s) if he doesn't Harden his rock snakes, while everything else kicks the crap out of Hitmonchan. Yes, even another Hitmonchan will kill it, mostly due to Counter, though Thunder Punch/Fire Punch will do the same damage your Hitmonchans Strength will do if 5 levels lower, just as a note. Agatha laughs in Braille. Lance doesn't care about it (though it will kill the Dragonite due to it spamming Agility) . The Rival has one Pokemon that might not have a good time, that being the Rhydon.

With other Pokemon, you can usually think of some weird gimmick to use it for, but Hitmonchan has nothing besides its god awful sprite. I can honestly think of weird crap to do with Tangela, Parasect, and even Ditto, but Hitmonchan is ridiculous in the fact of how much it sucks. Medium Fast exp can't save it.


Drowzee has a case for A-tier and has some uses that are pretty nice.
Drowzee is a lot like Magikarp in this game, it starts off pretty weak, then powers up to pretty high heights as you go through the game. Catching it at Route 11 means the lowest level it can be is Level 9, which sucks for that point in the game. This is the only big negative, which it happens to share with Magikarp too. Drowzee will have to wait till Level 17 for Confusion, which isn't that bad due to Route 11 and the S.S Anne holding 20+ trainers to farm. Evolution at Level 26 is early enough to dumpster the mid game, while being a fantastic mon for the late game. Psychic at level 37 is pretty nice as well, along with a decent attack for the normal moves it can learn.

Hypno is a Psychic Pokemon with a decent attack, very few route trainers will cause trouble for it.

Against Surge as a Drowzee is fine until the Raichu, it is pretty much a for sure defeat unless hypnosis works. Erika will trade blows with you if you just evolved and didn't use the Psychic TM on it. Koga cries in sign language. Sabrina is actually easy due to access to a physical move and her Alakazam only having Psybeam, so you can just Psychic spam after she puts up a reflect to eventually lower her special. Blaine is pretty even overall, besides that Fire Spin problem. Giovanni loses while scoring some hits.

Lorelei is the biggest problem in the Elite Four, mostly due to freeze. Bruno dies. Agatha has that confusion hax, but otherwise it good for Hypno. Lance is kind of neutral, but with the level difference (most likely), it is in Lances favor. The Rival loses half of his team, though you can't really beat his Alakazam without Hypnosis.

This leads me into why I really think Drowzee should be A-tier. Hypnosis allows it to skate by where it struggles. It has a lot of winning match ups, but also some losing ones, which would normally put it in B-tier. The ability it has to bully a sleeping Pokemon is something that is super powerful, especially considering the defenses of Hypno. There are very few things that could one shot Hypno, allowing it to beat stuff down, or put them to sleep. An example is that both Lance's Dragonite and the Rival's Charizard/Blatoise/Venusaur can't one shot it (unless a crit), when Hypno is 12 levels lower than Lance and 15 levels lower than the Rival.

Honestly if Sandslash, a pokemon with similar problems, but no utility can sit in A-tier, so should Hypno.

I think I'll stop there, see if I'm overstepping or something before continuing.
 

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