Nidoking needs Earthquake. Clefable needs Body Slam. Squirtle needs Bubblebeam and some kind of Ice move. The rest can be shared out.
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Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow In-Game Tiers - Reboot
- Thread starter DrumstickGaming
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I think Jynx could definitely do with more testing. While I could do so for my Japanese Blue run, purely to see what a non-outsider is like, my team is already packed with things that I want to test as is.
Maybe don't use Clefable in the run, since it pretty much wants the same tms as Nidoking and Squirtle (Thunderbolt, Ice Move, Mega Punch...). I think running Alakazam alongside them could have value as a means of comparison, but it's just an idea (it doesn't take away any valuable tms either, since all it wants is maybe Seismic Toss).
Nidoking should get Earthquake for sure. Other than that, Water Gun is probably better used on it as well (Squirtle should be close to learning it by that point anyway) to deal with the Geodudes. One of the Ice tms should go to it, but I'm not sure which one would be more efficient. If no one needs Thunderbolt you can teach it, but it is worth remembering that it's arguably the most valuable tm in the game (besides maybe Body Slam). Other than that, Surf should be used, eventually.
Mega Punch is probably more useful for Squirtle, since Horn Attack is still good enough until you get Thrash at level 23 (this is a tm Clefable would also want as well). Dig can get used, but only if there's nothing better to learn it (it's more of an icing on the cake for Squirtle, as I explained before). Bubblebeam is the only "mandatory" tm I would say. Other than that, teach it one of the Ice moves.
I know I initially said Squirtle A, but the more I think about it the more I think S is more appropriate, but I need to test it myself to make sure. I think Clefable, Nidoking and especially Alakazam are clearly S though.
Thank you all very much for the responses. I think I’m gonna go with Squirtle, Nidoking, Alakazam, and Dodrio for now, and save Clefairy for a future run.
To elaborate a bit on Jynx: yes, it comes after Super Rod. Yes, it requires a tiny bit of a detour (catching a Poliwhirl, most conveniently at Celadon in Red and Blue or Routes 22 and 23 in Yellow). Yes, it comes at level 23 in RB (catch it at Celadon).
On the other hand, if you catch Poliwhirl at Route 23 in Yellow, it can come at level 30 or 40! So assuming Jynx still obeys you at level 30 thanks to the Cascade Badge, you could even use it to sweep Erika with Ice Punch. Or if you catch it after Erika, you could go ahead and catch it at level 40, and after Sabrina obedience stops being an issue entirely. I think my Jynx was in the mid-high 50s when I used it during the League in Red and Blue.
TLDR:
-Jynx has an insane offensive type of Ice/Psychic that sweeps pretty much everyone but Blaine and Lorelei (and some of final rival due to PP issues). Sabrina is mostly a war of attrition though Lovely Kiss can help, and you resist her offense.
-Trade EXP or high level in Yellow makes somewhat late arrival trivial.
-Lovely Kiss can even help it cheese stuff like Lorelei and Blaine.
-Only really requires the Psychic TM, and why would you not do this when it sweeps 1 Gym Leader and 2 Elite Four members easily with it? Heck, you could probably even Ice Punch your way through Bruno.
Jynx could be A, but really, it just shreds the mid and lategame.
Edit: I have been informed that Jynx actually isn't in Yellow and is only in Red and Blue. Still though, I remember mine putting in work pretty much everywhere in Red and Blue.
To elaborate a bit on Jynx: yes, it comes after Super Rod. Yes, it requires a tiny bit of a detour (catching a Poliwhirl, most conveniently at Celadon in Red and Blue or Routes 22 and 23 in Yellow). Yes, it comes at level 23 in RB (catch it at Celadon).
On the other hand, if you catch Poliwhirl at Route 23 in Yellow, it can come at level 30 or 40! So assuming Jynx still obeys you at level 30 thanks to the Cascade Badge, you could even use it to sweep Erika with Ice Punch. Or if you catch it after Erika, you could go ahead and catch it at level 40, and after Sabrina obedience stops being an issue entirely. I think my Jynx was in the mid-high 50s when I used it during the League in Red and Blue.
TLDR:
-Jynx has an insane offensive type of Ice/Psychic that sweeps pretty much everyone but Blaine and Lorelei (and some of final rival due to PP issues). Sabrina is mostly a war of attrition though Lovely Kiss can help, and you resist her offense.
-Trade EXP or high level in Yellow makes somewhat late arrival trivial.
-Lovely Kiss can even help it cheese stuff like Lorelei and Blaine.
-Only really requires the Psychic TM, and why would you not do this when it sweeps 1 Gym Leader and 2 Elite Four members easily with it? Heck, you could probably even Ice Punch your way through Bruno.
Jynx could be A, but really, it just shreds the mid and lategame.
Edit: I have been informed that Jynx actually isn't in Yellow and is only in Red and Blue. Still though, I remember mine putting in work pretty much everywhere in Red and Blue.
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Bulbasaur: Even without Vine Whip, Leech Seed and Growl can do the job just as effectively.
Ivysaur: Even though the Charmander has Ember, this will still be a sweep. Although it may need some Leech Seed support to secure the victory.
Sandshrew: As this will be freshly caught, it won't have anything that can allow it to help on the fight.
Sandshrew: As this will be freshly caught, it won't have anything that can allow it to help on the fight.
Ivysaur: Yeah, this thing is considered Misty's best counter for a reason. No trouble what so ever.
Sandshrew: Even with insta-crit Slash, even the Staryu can make short work of it.
Sandshrew: Even with insta-crit Slash, even the Staryu can make short work of it.
Ivysaur: If you have Body Slam at this point, then is a very safe sweep.
Sandslash: Insta-crit Slash will take care of the entire roster. Starting Bulbasaur or Squirtle will net you with the most reliable sweep though.
Poliwag: It can get as far as Kadabra, who can outspeed and finish what Pidgeotto and Raticate started with Psybeam.
Sandslash: Insta-crit Slash will take care of the entire roster. Starting Bulbasaur or Squirtle will net you with the most reliable sweep though.
Poliwag: It can get as far as Kadabra, who can outspeed and finish what Pidgeotto and Raticate started with Psybeam.
Ivysaur: It can sweep the fight thanks to the Electric resistance. Although Body Slam will make the fight much faster.
Sandslash: Even without Dig, it can 1-2HKO everything with Slash.
Poliwag: Hypnosis will allow it to take on Voltorb and Pikachu. It will never beat Raichu on its own.
Sandslash: Even without Dig, it can 1-2HKO everything with Slash.
Poliwag: Hypnosis will allow it to take on Voltorb and Pikachu. It will never beat Raichu on its own.
RBY High Tier Run
High Tiers - Silph Co. to Pre-League
High Tiers - League Finale
Nidoran Male is looking like S. Great performance on routes with Horn Attack and Thrash. Misses OHKOs with Thrash sometimes but EQ soon should make up for this. A little inconsistent in bosses because of Thrash reliance, but the route power is so good otherwise.
Abra is looking like S. It's annoying to catch, it needs is some switch training until about Cerulean Gym, and it struggles with Starmie. If you can look past these minor issues though, it excels everywhere else. No mooks take Psychic STAB well at all, especially since the game throws Poison types and Rock/Grounds at you with low Special Defense all the time. I'm about to get Alakazam at level 37 and Psychic very soon. I doubt it's slowing down after taht.
Doduo starts off pretty good once it gets a tiny bit of babying (Celadon Gym is annoying with status if you aren't OHKOing with Fly) and it seems to be an A, though I haven't seen it in bosses too much yet. Once it's evolved with Drill Peck, everything pretty much dies. I just got Hyper Beam for it but I'm gonna try not to spam it. Hyper Beam is hilarious though, even mook Weezing die to it!
Oh yeah, Squirtle exists too. I'm sorry guys but this is definitely a clear step down from S tier, though being in A seems fine. You almost never OHKO mooks with BubbleBeam unless striking a weakness (or unless they are fodder). It's boss performance is pretty good, but a little shaky (takes forever to beat Starmie 6HKOing with Mega Punch, beats Lt. Surge's small stuff but hard loses to Raichu, hard loses to all of Erika save Tangela if you have Ice Beam). It's been fine enough, but I think the power level just isn't good enough for S tier.
Wartortle needing TMs to perform optimally against some Gym mons doesn't help its case (even if it only helps with one threat in each, those being Lt. Surge's Raichu if it lets you get a Dig off, and Erika's Tangela. I don't consider the TMs worth wasting on these threats, either). So yeah, I don't see this as S.
High Tiers - Silph Co. to Pre-League
High Tiers - League Finale
Squirtle (8): Unfortunately, unless you’ve only got Squirtle, it kinda lacks the power to muscle through here, and Sand-Attack is just insult to injury.
Nidoran Male (I think I was level 11): Seems to 2HKO Pidgey fine and does pretty well against Bulbasaur (though I did land a critical hit).
Nidoran Male (I think I was level 11): Seems to 2HKO Pidgey fine and does pretty well against Bulbasaur (though I did land a critical hit).
Squirtle (11): You have to be trying to lose to Brock with Squirtle. You 2HKO both mons and they do nothing.
Nidoran Male (12): Useless due to both mons resisting Horn Attack. This matchup would be significantly better in Yellow thanks to Double Kick.
Nidoran Male (12): Useless due to both mons resisting Horn Attack. This matchup would be significantly better in Yellow thanks to Double Kick.
Wartortle (19): Pidgeotto is meh due to you being slower and Sand-Attack can hamper Mega Punch. You 3HKO with Mega Punch, though two Mega Punches and a Water Gun should pick up the kill if you get favorable enough damage rolls. Mega Punch OHKOs Abra, but Rattata is a range to OHKO. Bulbasaur is 2HKOed by Mega Punch. So really, this matchup is dependent on accuracy and Pidgeotto if you sweep or not.
Nidoking (19): Horn Attack 3HKOs Pidgeotto, but considering Nidoking has a 16.60% chance to crit, you have a decent chance of 2HKOing (I crit on the first move in at least two separate attempts). Horn Attack OHKOs Abra and Rattata and 2HKOs Bulbasaur. Also they do nothing back.
Nidoking (19): Horn Attack 3HKOs Pidgeotto, but considering Nidoking has a 16.60% chance to crit, you have a decent chance of 2HKOing (I crit on the first move in at least two separate attempts). Horn Attack OHKOs Abra and Rattata and 2HKOs Bulbasaur. Also they do nothing back.
Kadabra (19): I initially fell just short of 2HKOing Staryu at level 17 (I caught a level 10 Abra, the median level). After battling the nearby Rocket Grunt and a couple wilds, I got to level 19 to make Kadabra closer to Misty’s levels.
Anyway, Kadabra should easily 2HKO Staryu if you are about level 18 it seems, and it does nothing back. Starmie however is probably not going to be beat by a Kadabra, it crits with BubbleBeam all the time (a crit and a normal BubbleBeam 2HKO you) and Confusion barely scratches Starmie unless you land a critical hit with Kadabra’s roughly 20% chance. Outside of crits, BubbleBeam is a 3HKO. This matchup is probably a lot better for Alakazam, but I don’t have one because my emulator settings only allow trade evolutions to be obtained at level 37 onward.
One other thing…you can give the Thunder Wave TM to Kadabra to help here. It helps with another member taking out Starmie, but I was only able to get Starmie to 2/3 HP before Kadabra fainted. So decent with Thunder Wave support.
Wartortle (22): If Misty uses X Defend on Staryu, Mega Punch turns into a 3HKO, and like with the rival Water Gun potentially prevents you having to risk another Mega Punch.
I was able to beat Starmie with Misty using an X Defend turn 1 on it. It took 6 Mega Punches to do so and I whiffed one in the 7 I used on Starmie. Starmie does almost nothing with Tackle, but the chip damage will add up (does 6 per hit when you have roughly 60 HP at this point). Good, but it takes longer than you’d think it’d would. I was able to solo again without healing in another attempt (she used X Defend turn one on both mons once more), but I was also in red health.
Nidoking (23): It’s a range to OHKO Staryu with Thrash, albeit what looks like a favorable one. Starmie outspeeds you and 2HKOs with BubbleBeam, while Thrash does almost half its HP. Good. Hilariously, I think I soloed once due to a critical on Starmie. If she spams Water Gun it’s only a 3HKO and you can get Starmie down to red health, but then Confusion likely kicks in. Good.
Anyway, Kadabra should easily 2HKO Staryu if you are about level 18 it seems, and it does nothing back. Starmie however is probably not going to be beat by a Kadabra, it crits with BubbleBeam all the time (a crit and a normal BubbleBeam 2HKO you) and Confusion barely scratches Starmie unless you land a critical hit with Kadabra’s roughly 20% chance. Outside of crits, BubbleBeam is a 3HKO. This matchup is probably a lot better for Alakazam, but I don’t have one because my emulator settings only allow trade evolutions to be obtained at level 37 onward.
One other thing…you can give the Thunder Wave TM to Kadabra to help here. It helps with another member taking out Starmie, but I was only able to get Starmie to 2/3 HP before Kadabra fainted. So decent with Thunder Wave support.
Wartortle (22): If Misty uses X Defend on Staryu, Mega Punch turns into a 3HKO, and like with the rival Water Gun potentially prevents you having to risk another Mega Punch.
I was able to beat Starmie with Misty using an X Defend turn 1 on it. It took 6 Mega Punches to do so and I whiffed one in the 7 I used on Starmie. Starmie does almost nothing with Tackle, but the chip damage will add up (does 6 per hit when you have roughly 60 HP at this point). Good, but it takes longer than you’d think it’d would. I was able to solo again without healing in another attempt (she used X Defend turn one on both mons once more), but I was also in red health.
Nidoking (23): It’s a range to OHKO Staryu with Thrash, albeit what looks like a favorable one. Starmie outspeeds you and 2HKOs with BubbleBeam, while Thrash does almost half its HP. Good. Hilariously, I think I soloed once due to a critical on Starmie. If she spams Water Gun it’s only a 3HKO and you can get Starmie down to red health, but then Confusion likely kicks in. Good.
Nidoking (25): Thrash knocks Pidgeotto to red, and it does nothing. Thrash even OHKOs Kadabra and Raticate, outspeeding both. Thrash 2HKOs Ivysaur. Confusion can be annoying, but when you easily chew through half a team at the minimum, who cares. Also, they do so little damage Nidoking can easily afford to hit itself in confusion a few times. Easy sweep.
Kadabra (25): Confusion almost OHKOs Pidgeotto, though Quick Attack can do a chunk. On the other hand, You outspeed and OHKO Raticate with Confusion, which is notable as it’s probably one of his toughest members. You can 4HKO his Kadabra easily between Blue being a moron with Teleport or Disable or using Potions (his Confusion does scratch damage to you). Also, Ivysaur is OHKOed. Great matchup! I was even able to solo it getting confused from Blue’s Kadabra. Even with two Quick Attacks from Pidgeotto I was able to solo.
Wartortle (25): BubbleBeam 2HKOs Pidgeotto and 2HKOs Raticate, and notably, not even Hyper Fang dents Wartortle much. Confusion from Kadabra does a decent amount, but Mega Punch OHKOs. Mega Punch 2HKOs Ivysaur. I was able to sweep here but was in red HP, you need everything to go right to do so. In another attempt I got to Ivysaur before Mega Punch screwed me over.
Kadabra (25): Confusion almost OHKOs Pidgeotto, though Quick Attack can do a chunk. On the other hand, You outspeed and OHKO Raticate with Confusion, which is notable as it’s probably one of his toughest members. You can 4HKO his Kadabra easily between Blue being a moron with Teleport or Disable or using Potions (his Confusion does scratch damage to you). Also, Ivysaur is OHKOed. Great matchup! I was even able to solo it getting confused from Blue’s Kadabra. Even with two Quick Attacks from Pidgeotto I was able to solo.
Wartortle (25): BubbleBeam 2HKOs Pidgeotto and 2HKOs Raticate, and notably, not even Hyper Fang dents Wartortle much. Confusion from Kadabra does a decent amount, but Mega Punch OHKOs. Mega Punch 2HKOs Ivysaur. I was able to sweep here but was in red HP, you need everything to go right to do so. In another attempt I got to Ivysaur before Mega Punch screwed me over.
Nidoking (26): Thrash barely does not OHKO Voltorb, but it does OHKO Pikachu. You 2HKO Raichu with Thrash and it literally can’t damage you at all, spamming Growl.
Kadabra (26): 2HKOs Voltorb with Confusion (which can actually kind of sting with SonicBoom), and OHKOs Pikachu. Surprisingly good for Raichu, I outsped and Confusion 3HKOs and Raichu’s Thunderbolt only 3HKOs (dealing 20 damage) so you should actually sweep. Easy solo.
Wartortle (26): If you have it, Dig OHKOs everything save Raichu which is a range. Dig can be hampered if Pikachu goes for Thunder Wave though. Even with a lot of paralysis, it took me a while for Raichu to land a Thunderbolt which OHKOed.
Otherwise, BubbleBeam 2HKOs Voltorb, and Pikachu (knocks the latter to red), and 4HKOs Raichu. Note Raichu’s Thundershock 2HKOs you. Good even without Dig, but the lack of OHKOs shows.
Kadabra (26): 2HKOs Voltorb with Confusion (which can actually kind of sting with SonicBoom), and OHKOs Pikachu. Surprisingly good for Raichu, I outsped and Confusion 3HKOs and Raichu’s Thunderbolt only 3HKOs (dealing 20 damage) so you should actually sweep. Easy solo.
Wartortle (26): If you have it, Dig OHKOs everything save Raichu which is a range. Dig can be hampered if Pikachu goes for Thunder Wave though. Even with a lot of paralysis, it took me a while for Raichu to land a Thunderbolt which OHKOed.
Otherwise, BubbleBeam 2HKOs Voltorb, and Pikachu (knocks the latter to red), and 4HKOs Raichu. Note Raichu’s Thundershock 2HKOs you. Good even without Dig, but the lack of OHKOs shows.
Doduo (29): You can sweep just fine with Fly but every member will barely survive one Fly. If you are level 30, they can still barely survive Drill Peck.
Kadabra (30): Kadabra knocks Victrebel to red with Psybeam while Razor Leaf is a 3HKO. Tangela is 2HKOed by Psybeam. Vileplume is knocked to red by Psybeam and you tank its moves with your high Special. So really, this matchup depends on Sleep Powder RNG. Also, with Psychic, Victrebel and Tangela can still live, and Vileplume still presumable can as well (only tested this once by rewinding time, not doing so for Lavender Blue as he was inconsequential).
Wartortle (30): Victrebel is unbeatable regardless if you have Ice Beam. Every move is bad for Wartortle and Razor Leaf always OHKOs you. Also hard loses to Vileplume, Ice Beam is a 3HKO and both Mega Drain and Petal Dance 2HKO you, not to mention Sleep Powder. Only mon you are beating with Ice Beam is Tangela who you 2HKO. Don’t bother without Ice Beam, I tried and Mega Punch did laughable damage on Victrebell.
Nidoking (31): Rather iffy against Victrebell, Ice Beam looks like it can miss the 2HKO and Razor Leaf comes very close to a 2HKO (just barely a 3HKO). Vileplume is also weird as Mega Drain can prevent the Ice Beam 2HKO. You tank Vileplume’s Petal Dance easily though. So mostly an easy sweep with Ice Beam.
Without Ice Beam it’s a lot more iffy because Thrash can miss the 2HKO on Victrebel and Sleep Powder sucks. Tangela looks to be a 2HKO with Thrash. Thrash is a rough 3HKO on Vileplume but confusion, Sleep Powder and Mega Drain healing can be annoying. If you start Thrashing cleanly on Vileplume, it looks to be much better.
Kadabra (30): Kadabra knocks Victrebel to red with Psybeam while Razor Leaf is a 3HKO. Tangela is 2HKOed by Psybeam. Vileplume is knocked to red by Psybeam and you tank its moves with your high Special. So really, this matchup depends on Sleep Powder RNG. Also, with Psychic, Victrebel and Tangela can still live, and Vileplume still presumable can as well (only tested this once by rewinding time, not doing so for Lavender Blue as he was inconsequential).
Wartortle (30): Victrebel is unbeatable regardless if you have Ice Beam. Every move is bad for Wartortle and Razor Leaf always OHKOs you. Also hard loses to Vileplume, Ice Beam is a 3HKO and both Mega Drain and Petal Dance 2HKO you, not to mention Sleep Powder. Only mon you are beating with Ice Beam is Tangela who you 2HKO. Don’t bother without Ice Beam, I tried and Mega Punch did laughable damage on Victrebell.
Nidoking (31): Rather iffy against Victrebell, Ice Beam looks like it can miss the 2HKO and Razor Leaf comes very close to a 2HKO (just barely a 3HKO). Vileplume is also weird as Mega Drain can prevent the Ice Beam 2HKO. You tank Vileplume’s Petal Dance easily though. So mostly an easy sweep with Ice Beam.
Without Ice Beam it’s a lot more iffy because Thrash can miss the 2HKO on Victrebel and Sleep Powder sucks. Tangela looks to be a 2HKO with Thrash. Thrash is a rough 3HKO on Vileplume but confusion, Sleep Powder and Mega Drain healing can be annoying. If you start Thrashing cleanly on Vileplume, it looks to be much better.
Kadabra (32): OHKO on Rock/Grounds, 2HKO on Khan. Easy sweep.
Wartortle (32): OHKOs Rock/Grounds and 3HKOs Kangaskhan with BubbleBeam. Should be an easy sweep.
Nidoking (32): OHKOs Rock/Grounds with Water Gun. 3HKOs Kangaskhan with Thrash but it’s not doing much to you.
Dodrio (32): 4HKO on Onix and 3HKO on Rhyhorn with Drill Peck. Better than you’d expect because of Giovanni using Guard Spec and your high crit rate. Kangaskhan looks like a rough 2HKO with Drill Peck, but as long as it doesn’t crit with Comet Punch you should win easily. Probably not a sweep because you get worn down.
Wartortle (32): OHKOs Rock/Grounds and 3HKOs Kangaskhan with BubbleBeam. Should be an easy sweep.
Nidoking (32): OHKOs Rock/Grounds with Water Gun. 3HKOs Kangaskhan with Thrash but it’s not doing much to you.
Dodrio (32): 4HKO on Onix and 3HKO on Rhyhorn with Drill Peck. Better than you’d expect because of Giovanni using Guard Spec and your high crit rate. Kangaskhan looks like a rough 2HKO with Drill Peck, but as long as it doesn’t crit with Comet Punch you should win easily. Probably not a sweep because you get worn down.
Wartortle (32): Ice Beam OHKOs Pidgeotto while BubbleBeam 2HKOs. You and Gyarados 3HKO each other with Dragon Rage and Mega Punch respectively. BubbleBeam OHKOs Growlithe. Bite OHKOs Kadabra (likely due to sheer level advantage). Ice Beam knocks Ivysaur to red. Mega Punch is a 3HKO on Ivysaur but it can’t really threaten you with Vine Whip as it seems to be a 4HKO.
Kadabra (32): Psybeam OHKOs Pidgeotto and 2HKOs Gyrados. Dragon Rage can suck, but you can easily Recover on Growlithe who you OHKO. You 3HKO Kadabra and overpower it easily due to its lack of Psybeam. You OHKO Ivysaur with Psybeam. You can probably sweep without Recover if you’re lucky (he can miss Hydro Pump with Gyarados or not go for Quick Attack on Pidgeotto, etc).
Nidoking (33): Thunderbolt OHKOs Gyarados and Pidgeotto (Thrash 2HKOs both). Thrash OHKOs Growlithe and Kadabra and 2HKOs Ivysaur.
Dodrio (33): Drill Peck OHKOs everything save Gyarados who gets knocked to red. Easy sweep.
Kadabra (32): Psybeam OHKOs Pidgeotto and 2HKOs Gyrados. Dragon Rage can suck, but you can easily Recover on Growlithe who you OHKO. You 3HKO Kadabra and overpower it easily due to its lack of Psybeam. You OHKO Ivysaur with Psybeam. You can probably sweep without Recover if you’re lucky (he can miss Hydro Pump with Gyarados or not go for Quick Attack on Pidgeotto, etc).
Nidoking (33): Thunderbolt OHKOs Gyarados and Pidgeotto (Thrash 2HKOs both). Thrash OHKOs Growlithe and Kadabra and 2HKOs Ivysaur.
Dodrio (33): Drill Peck OHKOs everything save Gyarados who gets knocked to red. Easy sweep.
Nidoran Male is looking like S. Great performance on routes with Horn Attack and Thrash. Misses OHKOs with Thrash sometimes but EQ soon should make up for this. A little inconsistent in bosses because of Thrash reliance, but the route power is so good otherwise.
Abra is looking like S. It's annoying to catch, it needs is some switch training until about Cerulean Gym, and it struggles with Starmie. If you can look past these minor issues though, it excels everywhere else. No mooks take Psychic STAB well at all, especially since the game throws Poison types and Rock/Grounds at you with low Special Defense all the time. I'm about to get Alakazam at level 37 and Psychic very soon. I doubt it's slowing down after taht.
Doduo starts off pretty good once it gets a tiny bit of babying (Celadon Gym is annoying with status if you aren't OHKOing with Fly) and it seems to be an A, though I haven't seen it in bosses too much yet. Once it's evolved with Drill Peck, everything pretty much dies. I just got Hyper Beam for it but I'm gonna try not to spam it. Hyper Beam is hilarious though, even mook Weezing die to it!
Oh yeah, Squirtle exists too. I'm sorry guys but this is definitely a clear step down from S tier, though being in A seems fine. You almost never OHKO mooks with BubbleBeam unless striking a weakness (or unless they are fodder). It's boss performance is pretty good, but a little shaky (takes forever to beat Starmie 6HKOing with Mega Punch, beats Lt. Surge's small stuff but hard loses to Raichu, hard loses to all of Erika save Tangela if you have Ice Beam). It's been fine enough, but I think the power level just isn't good enough for S tier.
Wartortle needing TMs to perform optimally against some Gym mons doesn't help its case (even if it only helps with one threat in each, those being Lt. Surge's Raichu if it lets you get a Dig off, and Erika's Tangela. I don't consider the TMs worth wasting on these threats, either). So yeah, I don't see this as S.
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Mmm, seems like Seismic Toss makes a bigger difference in Misty than I though. Both Kadabra/Alakazam and Wartortle can 3hko Starmie at level 20 with it. That way there's no chance to get cheesed by X Defend for Squirtle and Kadabra has an easier time, (Seismic Toss is in the route before Bill's house). Oh, and yes, thunder wave can make the matchup against Misty more consistent for Abra.
So, I did a run in Red with Bulbasaur, Nidoran-Male, Farfetch'd, Staryu and Articuno. The Articuno got effectively 0 exp from fights since I just reset after testing it in boss fights (I did feed it 1 rare candy to learn Blizzard however), which means this was pretty much a 4 member playthrough, with some Articuno tests sprinkled in there. Since I was using Farfetch'd and wanted to test Body Slam on it, that meant Bulbasaur was stuck with Cut as its best normal type move. I also decided to test Leech Seed+Toxic to see if it has any real merit (no point in using Swords Dance without Body Slam anyway).
I'll only go into detail over the more notable fights, to demonstrate some points.
I'll only go into detail over the more notable fights, to demonstrate some points.
Yeah, I'm going to have to side with the people saying B, it's honestly just too slow at beating things that it technically has no issues with. Toxic+Leech Seed, while neat, is not all that efficient, as shown below. This run also showed its over-reliance on the Body Slam tm.
vs Brock (lvl 12): Leech Seed+Tackle took down the Geodude in 12 turns, which is very slow. However, I did fight every trainer in Viridian Forest and the trainer in Brock's gym. When considering how long it would take to walk back for the optional rival fight or how long it would take to get to 13 against wild enemies, it does seem like this is still the faster method. Vine Whip is learned after beating the Geodude and takes down Onix in 1 hit. An easy fight, but also a very slow one.
vs Misty (lvl 21): Vine Whip is a 4 hit ko against Starmie. Easy fight and also Bulbasaur's biggest feat.
vs Surge (lvl 22): 4hkos the Voltorb. Used a potion for safety since it was at pretty low health. 3hkos the Pikachu. Vine Whip did very little damage to the Raichu, so I decided to go for Poisonpowder turn 2. It took 7 turns to ko it, including a turn of using another safety potion. Overall pretty slow, but it can get the job done with some help.
vs Blaine (lvl41): Growlithe: Toxic->Leech Seed->Cut->Cut->Dead (even with Blaine using 2 super potions). Ponyta: Toxic->(got Fire Spined for 2 turns)->Leech Seed->Died to Toxic+Leech Seed next turn. Rapidash: Toxic->(Fire Spinned for 5 turns...)->Super Potion->Dead by poison. Arcanine: Toxic (got hit by crit Ember)->Max Potion(hit by Fire Blast)->Max Potion->Leech Seed->Cut->Win.
So yeah, Toxic+Leech Seed can work in otherwise problematic matchups, but a) it's still quite slow, b)it requires quite a bit of Luck between the 90% chances and hoping for the opponent to not spam their strongest move and (c) it may still require potion support on top of that.
vs Brock (lvl 12): Leech Seed+Tackle took down the Geodude in 12 turns, which is very slow. However, I did fight every trainer in Viridian Forest and the trainer in Brock's gym. When considering how long it would take to walk back for the optional rival fight or how long it would take to get to 13 against wild enemies, it does seem like this is still the faster method. Vine Whip is learned after beating the Geodude and takes down Onix in 1 hit. An easy fight, but also a very slow one.
vs Misty (lvl 21): Vine Whip is a 4 hit ko against Starmie. Easy fight and also Bulbasaur's biggest feat.
vs Surge (lvl 22): 4hkos the Voltorb. Used a potion for safety since it was at pretty low health. 3hkos the Pikachu. Vine Whip did very little damage to the Raichu, so I decided to go for Poisonpowder turn 2. It took 7 turns to ko it, including a turn of using another safety potion. Overall pretty slow, but it can get the job done with some help.
vs Blaine (lvl41): Growlithe: Toxic->Leech Seed->Cut->Cut->Dead (even with Blaine using 2 super potions). Ponyta: Toxic->(got Fire Spined for 2 turns)->Leech Seed->Died to Toxic+Leech Seed next turn. Rapidash: Toxic->(Fire Spinned for 5 turns...)->Super Potion->Dead by poison. Arcanine: Toxic (got hit by crit Ember)->Max Potion(hit by Fire Blast)->Max Potion->Leech Seed->Cut->Win.
So yeah, Toxic+Leech Seed can work in otherwise problematic matchups, but a) it's still quite slow, b)it requires quite a bit of Luck between the 90% chances and hoping for the opponent to not spam their strongest move and (c) it may still require potion support on top of that.
Absolutely S tier. Had to save Thunderbolt for Staryu, but it didn't make much of a difference. It does great as soon as it gets Horn Attack, with Mega Punch and Thrash just making it even better. The early evolution, access to Water and Ice tms, great matchups through and through make it easily one of the best Pokemon in the game. Probably the next best thing to Alakazam.
B tier I guess? It performs admirably as soon as you get it (mine was level 15 at first), with Body Slam Ohking things it has no right to Ohko. It levels up super fast with the trade exp, which means that Swords Dance (lvl23) is learned very soon. It smashes Erika's gym and does well against pretty much every other gym leader... But man, that elite 4 performance is horrendous. There wasn't a single fight were it had a clean, useful contribution. It has no time to setup since everything hits it too hard, and without setup its damage is pathetic. It was completely dead weight due to its subpar stats there. That being said, between its performance everywhere else and the unique access to Cut+Fly, it's probably enough for B tier.
A tier. No questions asked. It stomped harder than Articuno did. And I do mean stomped. There were like, 2 whole pokemon it struggled with the whole run, even though it came somewhat under-leveled at level 30. Now, I did give it everything it could ever want (Surf/Psychic/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt was the moveset), but even dropping one of those would only affect one Elite 4 fight performance at most. What stops it from being S tier is obviously the late availability and the tm reliance.
A tier. Now, it's very, very slow at beating Lorelei, but it absolutely smashes every gym leader (as in Ohkos literally everything they have) and its performance against the Elite 4 is otherwise insane. It's also the most tm efficient pokemon in the game, since it comes with Ice Beam, Blizzard is learned at 51(use a Rare Candy) and Fly is an Hm. Like Staryu, the late availability stops it from being S tier.
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I have tested some Water mons.
Tentative rankings: Blastoise A, Gyarados A, Vaporeon A or B, Dewgong B, Starmie B, Kingler B
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_000.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_000-png.262377/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_000.png")
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_001.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_001-png.262378/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_001.png")
Pros:
- Excellent join level (Lv5 at the start of the game)
- Optimal Brock match-up
- Access to Mega Punch early
- Good Misty match-up early
- Access to Bubble Beam early
- Learns Bite and Water Gun through level-up for neutral coverage
- Really bulky (it eventually matters when it comes down to facing Hyper Beams)
- Access to Dig and Earthquake for Poison and Electric enemies
- Access to Strength for neutral coverage
Cons:
- Negative Surge match-up without Dig
- Negative Erika match-up without Ice Beam and a level advantage
- Reaches Tier 3 a bit late, making an awkward mid-game
- Average Tier 3 stats outside of defense
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_002.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_002-png.262380/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_002.png")
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_003.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_003-png.262381/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_003.png")
Pros:
- Tier 3 stats in the early-game
- Trivial Misty match-up
- Excellent stats all around, especially Attack
- Learns Bite and Dragon Rage through level-up
- Early access to the Water Gun and Bubble Beam TM
- Electric and Fire coverage against other Water and Grass-type mons
- Neutral match-up against Erika due to secondary Flying-type
- Earliest Hydro Pump
Cons:
- Needs fifteen levels of babying in the Slow experience group due to the Magikarp phase
- Cuadruple electric weakness
- Abysmal Surge match-up
- Doesn't learn a STAB move until Lv41 through level-up
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_004.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_004-png.262382/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_004.png")
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_005.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_005-png.262383/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_005.png")
Pros:
- Tier 3 stats in the mid-game
- Excellent Special, giving it a lot of power in its STAB attacks and Ice Beam
- Excellent HP, making it an excellent special wall and a good physical wall (it can withstand Victreebel's Razor Leaf)
- Acid Armor improves its physical sturdiness
Cons:
- A bit underleveled (Lv25 in Celadon when your party is in the 30s)
- It needs the Bubble Beam TM to start being useful because it doesn't come with a STAB move
- Needs Ice Beam for the match-up against Erika
- Its physical attack is rather poor, making it slow against other Water-type enemies
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_006.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_006-png.262384/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_006.png")
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_007.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_007-png.262385/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_007.png")
Pros:
- Decent join level (Lv36 after getting Surf)
- Decent Special
- Trade experience, making it level-up extremely quickly
- Ice secondary STAB
- Comes with Aurora Beam, doesn't need an Ice TM
- Learns Strength
Cons:
- Average stats all around, although this is compensated by overleveling due to the trade exp
- Late join time
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_010.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_010-png.262386/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_010.png")
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_011.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_011-png.262387/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_011.png")
Pros:
- Excellent speed, it can attack before enemies multiple levels ahead of it
- Good special
- Psychic secondary STAB
- Access to excellent coverage with electric and psychic-type attacks
- Access to Thunder Wave to cripple fast enemies and help allies in case Starmie can't defeat the enemy
Cons:
- Join level slightly under average (Lv33 after getting Surf)
- It has no level-up movepool, TM reliant
- Late join time
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_008.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_008-png.262388/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_008.png")
![Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_009.png](https://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/pokemon-blue-version-ue-s-water_009-png.262389/ "Pokemon - Blue Version (UE) [S][!] - Water_009.png")
Pros:
- Excellent join level (Lv39 after getting Surf)
- Excellent physical attack, it can OHKO generics with neutral coverage without STAB
- Excellent defense, it can take on physical attacks
- Access to Swords Dance to boost its physical attack further
- Learns Crabhammer, the strongest Water-type attack in the game, through level-up
- Access to Strength
Cons:
- Low special makes it vulnerable to special attacks
- Doesn't join with STAB, and it's a poor user of Surf due to its low Special
- It's not a good user of Ice TMs (only against Lance, and even that's questionable)
- Late join time
Tentative rankings: Blastoise A, Gyarados A, Vaporeon A or B, Dewgong B, Starmie B, Kingler B
Pros:
- Excellent join level (Lv5 at the start of the game)
- Optimal Brock match-up
- Access to Mega Punch early
- Good Misty match-up early
- Access to Bubble Beam early
- Learns Bite and Water Gun through level-up for neutral coverage
- Really bulky (it eventually matters when it comes down to facing Hyper Beams)
- Access to Dig and Earthquake for Poison and Electric enemies
- Access to Strength for neutral coverage
Cons:
- Negative Surge match-up without Dig
- Negative Erika match-up without Ice Beam and a level advantage
- Reaches Tier 3 a bit late, making an awkward mid-game
- Average Tier 3 stats outside of defense
Pros:
- Tier 3 stats in the early-game
- Trivial Misty match-up
- Excellent stats all around, especially Attack
- Learns Bite and Dragon Rage through level-up
- Early access to the Water Gun and Bubble Beam TM
- Electric and Fire coverage against other Water and Grass-type mons
- Neutral match-up against Erika due to secondary Flying-type
- Earliest Hydro Pump
Cons:
- Needs fifteen levels of babying in the Slow experience group due to the Magikarp phase
- Cuadruple electric weakness
- Abysmal Surge match-up
- Doesn't learn a STAB move until Lv41 through level-up
Pros:
- Tier 3 stats in the mid-game
- Excellent Special, giving it a lot of power in its STAB attacks and Ice Beam
- Excellent HP, making it an excellent special wall and a good physical wall (it can withstand Victreebel's Razor Leaf)
- Acid Armor improves its physical sturdiness
Cons:
- A bit underleveled (Lv25 in Celadon when your party is in the 30s)
- It needs the Bubble Beam TM to start being useful because it doesn't come with a STAB move
- Needs Ice Beam for the match-up against Erika
- Its physical attack is rather poor, making it slow against other Water-type enemies
Pros:
- Decent join level (Lv36 after getting Surf)
- Decent Special
- Trade experience, making it level-up extremely quickly
- Ice secondary STAB
- Comes with Aurora Beam, doesn't need an Ice TM
- Learns Strength
Cons:
- Average stats all around, although this is compensated by overleveling due to the trade exp
- Late join time
Pros:
- Excellent speed, it can attack before enemies multiple levels ahead of it
- Good special
- Psychic secondary STAB
- Access to excellent coverage with electric and psychic-type attacks
- Access to Thunder Wave to cripple fast enemies and help allies in case Starmie can't defeat the enemy
Cons:
- Join level slightly under average (Lv33 after getting Surf)
- It has no level-up movepool, TM reliant
- Late join time
Pros:
- Excellent join level (Lv39 after getting Surf)
- Excellent physical attack, it can OHKO generics with neutral coverage without STAB
- Excellent defense, it can take on physical attacks
- Access to Swords Dance to boost its physical attack further
- Learns Crabhammer, the strongest Water-type attack in the game, through level-up
- Access to Strength
Cons:
- Low special makes it vulnerable to special attacks
- Doesn't join with STAB, and it's a poor user of Surf due to its low Special
- It's not a good user of Ice TMs (only against Lance, and even that's questionable)
- Late join time
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Reminder that I am going to be likely moving some recently nominated Pokemon in two days to their new tiers if applicable. If you want Bulbasaur and Snorlax to be in a tier higher than B, speak up now before they move. Though I will probably be moving more than those two-I'll be considering my last votes post and some of the recaps of Pokemon above.
Did another run. This time with Charmander, Clefairy, Jynx(RB trade) and Tentacool.
tms used: Dig, Body Slam, Swords Dance, Earthquake, Fire Blast
Wow, I'm very surprised by its performance. I went into this remembering it being about as good as Bulbasaur (from playthroughs around 2 years earlier or something), but that is not true at all. I think it absolutely deserves A tier. Early game it stomps all the route trainers with bugs, and while it's slow against Brock, it's quite frankly not that much slower at the same level as Bulbasaur (lvl12), while being equally as safe. Now, it's match up against Misty stings, and you really want to give it Dig, a wanted tm, but it really comes into its own afterwards. It was sweeping a lot of things very easily and by the time Ember started feeling weak, it learned Slash, which nullified that issue as well. Swords Dance + Dig/Earthquake, Fire Blast and potentially Flamethrower (I got it at 46 literally before starting the elite 4) can make it even better. Now, it clearly has very real issues that stop it from being S, such as that weaker portion while it's waiting for Slash or the Misty match up, but I can say I was pleasantly surprised by its performance.
Wow, I'm very surprised by its performance. I went into this remembering it being about as good as Bulbasaur (from playthroughs around 2 years earlier or something), but that is not true at all. I think it absolutely deserves A tier. Early game it stomps all the route trainers with bugs, and while it's slow against Brock, it's quite frankly not that much slower at the same level as Bulbasaur (lvl12), while being equally as safe. Now, it's match up against Misty stings, and you really want to give it Dig, a wanted tm, but it really comes into its own afterwards. It was sweeping a lot of things very easily and by the time Ember started feeling weak, it learned Slash, which nullified that issue as well. Swords Dance + Dig/Earthquake, Fire Blast and potentially Flamethrower (I got it at 46 literally before starting the elite 4) can make it even better. Now, it clearly has very real issues that stop it from being S, such as that weaker portion while it's waiting for Slash or the Misty match up, but I can say I was pleasantly surprised by its performance.
tms used: Water Gun, Mega Punch, Thunder Wave, Bubblebeam, Thunderbolt
Yeah, this is an S tier. While not quite on the level of Alakazam and Nidoking, it is a big step above your average A tier. When you obtain it, Pound+Water Gun take care of enemies rather easily. A few minutes later you teach it Mega Punch and it starts 2hkoing everything. A few more minutes and you feed it the Moon Stone, watching everything die in 1 hit. That Ohking goes on for a pretty long stretch too, like, until the midgame (85BP Normal STAB+Final evo at that point of the game is ridiculous). It also has one of the best match ups against Misty (3hkoed Starmie through the X Defend) and does well against pretty much every gym leader. I do find that occasionally (ie againts Koga if you give something else the Psychic tm), it 3hkoes instead of the 2hko you would get from other S tiers, but it's pretty rare.
Yeah, this is an S tier. While not quite on the level of Alakazam and Nidoking, it is a big step above your average A tier. When you obtain it, Pound+Water Gun take care of enemies rather easily. A few minutes later you teach it Mega Punch and it starts 2hkoing everything. A few more minutes and you feed it the Moon Stone, watching everything die in 1 hit. That Ohking goes on for a pretty long stretch too, like, until the midgame (85BP Normal STAB+Final evo at that point of the game is ridiculous). It also has one of the best match ups against Misty (3hkoed Starmie through the X Defend) and does well against pretty much every gym leader. I do find that occasionally (ie againts Koga if you give something else the Psychic tm), it 3hkoes instead of the 2hko you would get from other S tiers, but it's pretty rare.
tms used: Psychic, Ice Beam
First time using this. I'm not entirely sure about it being S tier, but I would lean towards that more than A. Mind you, the doubts have nothing to do with power, as this thing is just insane. You get it at level 23, but after 1 optional battle in Erika's gym + 2 forced ones it managed to not only sweep Erika, but to do it far better and faster than Charmeleon or Clefable (who were both level 31, significantly higher than 25). After that, I would say it was the most reliable team member for most of the game, as Psychic+Ice STAB is just silly in gen 1, not to mention the boosted xp. Lovely Kiss is also some nice cheese against those Recover Spamming Alakazams. However, I do think it might rely a bit too much on those tms. I noticed that had I only given it one of the 2 tms above, it would have easily ran into some pp issues, as it has no useful moves from the get go and Ice Punch is locked at level 31. I'm still going with S tier, but I would understand if someone disagreed.
First time using this. I'm not entirely sure about it being S tier, but I would lean towards that more than A. Mind you, the doubts have nothing to do with power, as this thing is just insane. You get it at level 23, but after 1 optional battle in Erika's gym + 2 forced ones it managed to not only sweep Erika, but to do it far better and faster than Charmeleon or Clefable (who were both level 31, significantly higher than 25). After that, I would say it was the most reliable team member for most of the game, as Psychic+Ice STAB is just silly in gen 1, not to mention the boosted xp. Lovely Kiss is also some nice cheese against those Recover Spamming Alakazams. However, I do think it might rely a bit too much on those tms. I noticed that had I only given it one of the 2 tms above, it would have easily ran into some pp issues, as it has no useful moves from the get go and Ice Punch is locked at level 31. I'm still going with S tier, but I would understand if someone disagreed.
tms used: Blizzard, Mega Drain
I'm very disappointed. The last playthough I used it in must have had some insane luck, since I found a level 40 Tentacool by using a Max Repel in probably less than a minute. This time however, I led with a level 38 pokemon and after 10 Max Repels found 0 Tentacools. After that, I decided to catch some level 30 mon in Cinnabar Mansion to increase my odds and 2 Max Repels later I got a level 35 Tentacool. I even thought that maybe I had used some weaker repels last time and that could have mattered (I'm pretty sure it makes 0 difference for this), so I went back and tested with regular Repels, but still no Tentacool. Now, you could just try to catch one normally, but that just seems to run into never-ending level 5 Tentacool swarms. Honestly, with the added annoyance of catching it, C tier seems pretty fitting and much more accurate than my initial B tier impression. Yes, if you have a lowered leveled Pokemon the odds of finding a decent one are not bad at all, but the fact you even need that in the first place is an annoyance something like a Vaporeon, Omastar or Seel (all probably B tier) simply don't have.
Now, it is a very speedy Pokemon with the highest special stat of all the water types in gen 1 (120), which let's it outspeed and nab some kills its competitors wouldn't, not to mention that its ice type moves really sting. I found Mega Drain to be pretty underwhelming honestly. It just didn't do enough damage any of the times I used it, especially against Lorelei.
I'm very disappointed. The last playthough I used it in must have had some insane luck, since I found a level 40 Tentacool by using a Max Repel in probably less than a minute. This time however, I led with a level 38 pokemon and after 10 Max Repels found 0 Tentacools. After that, I decided to catch some level 30 mon in Cinnabar Mansion to increase my odds and 2 Max Repels later I got a level 35 Tentacool. I even thought that maybe I had used some weaker repels last time and that could have mattered (I'm pretty sure it makes 0 difference for this), so I went back and tested with regular Repels, but still no Tentacool. Now, you could just try to catch one normally, but that just seems to run into never-ending level 5 Tentacool swarms. Honestly, with the added annoyance of catching it, C tier seems pretty fitting and much more accurate than my initial B tier impression. Yes, if you have a lowered leveled Pokemon the odds of finding a decent one are not bad at all, but the fact you even need that in the first place is an annoyance something like a Vaporeon, Omastar or Seel (all probably B tier) simply don't have.
Now, it is a very speedy Pokemon with the highest special stat of all the water types in gen 1 (120), which let's it outspeed and nab some kills its competitors wouldn't, not to mention that its ice type moves really sting. I found Mega Drain to be pretty underwhelming honestly. It just didn't do enough damage any of the times I used it, especially against Lorelei.
I'm just reading up on the runs you did, and it's been very insightful! Good job guys, keep it up!
Seeing how all of its learners fill a similar niche and often overlap on more contested resources than the Psychic TM, it is a surprisingly uncontested TM. This is one of the reasons why Starmie and Jynx are so good; they basically destroy the lategame off their primary STAB and the Psychic TM.
Regarding Tentacool, I just looked up the encounter tables (here) and the level 40 Tentacool is indeed the 1% encounter on these routes (thus, quite rare). I'd assume you're looking for anything lv. 30 or higher (cumulated ~10% encounter rate, which is acceptable), which should be easy to do with Repels and most catches from the Safari Zone.
Level 30 Tentacool still immediately evolves into Tentacruel and is basically the same level as any other of the Seafoam Islands water type (with the difference being that you don't actually have to go to Seafoam for Tentacool).
Seeing how all of its learners fill a similar niche and often overlap on more contested resources than the Psychic TM, it is a surprisingly uncontested TM. This is one of the reasons why Starmie and Jynx are so good; they basically destroy the lategame off their primary STAB and the Psychic TM.
Regarding Tentacool, I just looked up the encounter tables (here) and the level 40 Tentacool is indeed the 1% encounter on these routes (thus, quite rare). I'd assume you're looking for anything lv. 30 or higher (cumulated ~10% encounter rate, which is acceptable), which should be easy to do with Repels and most catches from the Safari Zone.
Level 30 Tentacool still immediately evolves into Tentacruel and is basically the same level as any other of the Seafoam Islands water type (with the difference being that you don't actually have to go to Seafoam for Tentacool).
Moved Bulbasaur and Snorlax to B!
Squirtle is staying in A for now. My run will help dictate Squirtle's tiering as I finish it. I do know some people want it in S, though I'm not so sure. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I just don't see it as a "game-breaker" per se. But maybe some of you can convince me otherwise.
It seems we are seeing some dispute on both Gyarados and Starmie, and whether or not they deserve A or B. I haven't used Starmie yet, so I can't really speak for it. It seems to come down to how much one weighs TM usage on both of them, and to an extent the Magikarp period on the former.
What do you all think in terms of TMs for both? Personally, when I used Gyarados I felt like it suffered from a lack of power lategame to my memory-for example, I remember Gyarados couldn't OHKO Lance's Dragonair without Blizzard. I wouldn't have minded this if I hadn't already taught it Ice Beam.
That being said, Gyarados is definitely one of the better mons you can use - it's bulky and hits pretty hard. But it does require a good deal of investment. It could go either way, but I see Gyarados as a mon you have to invest in a good bit, as opposed to something like Diglett or Sandshrew in A which you can mostly pull out and use right away. That's just me though.
Squirtle is staying in A for now. My run will help dictate Squirtle's tiering as I finish it. I do know some people want it in S, though I'm not so sure. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I just don't see it as a "game-breaker" per se. But maybe some of you can convince me otherwise.
It seems we are seeing some dispute on both Gyarados and Starmie, and whether or not they deserve A or B. I haven't used Starmie yet, so I can't really speak for it. It seems to come down to how much one weighs TM usage on both of them, and to an extent the Magikarp period on the former.
What do you all think in terms of TMs for both? Personally, when I used Gyarados I felt like it suffered from a lack of power lategame to my memory-for example, I remember Gyarados couldn't OHKO Lance's Dragonair without Blizzard. I wouldn't have minded this if I hadn't already taught it Ice Beam.
That being said, Gyarados is definitely one of the better mons you can use - it's bulky and hits pretty hard. But it does require a good deal of investment. It could go either way, but I see Gyarados as a mon you have to invest in a good bit, as opposed to something like Diglett or Sandshrew in A which you can mostly pull out and use right away. That's just me though.
More Japanese Blue writeups:
Venusaur: If it has Body Slam, then this will be a safe matchups. Even without it, Double Edge from the Rocket Game Corner can always be used.
Sandslash: Won't be able to OHKO Victreebel, and it can make short work of it with Razor Leaf. Tangela is the main member which it can sport a chance against.
Poliwrath: Ice Beam can't beat Victreebel or Vileplume, and they can fight back with STAB Razor Leaf and Petal Dance.
Gengar: It's highly likely that the one you can get from the Cerulean trade will be unruly. Even then though, it can still struggle through nicely.
Sandslash: Won't be able to OHKO Victreebel, and it can make short work of it with Razor Leaf. Tangela is the main member which it can sport a chance against.
Poliwrath: Ice Beam can't beat Victreebel or Vileplume, and they can fight back with STAB Razor Leaf and Petal Dance.
Gengar: It's highly likely that the one you can get from the Cerulean trade will be unruly. Even then though, it can still struggle through nicely.
Venusaur: If it has good Normal-type moves, then it will have a good sweep against him. Especially considering how his Charmeleon will still be depending on the rather weak Ember.
Sandslash: It will be able to survive a Hydro Pump from Gyarados and sweep everything else. Although a Celadon visit may be required first.
Poliwrath: Easy sweep even if he has two Psychic-type Pokemon. Giving Poliwrath Hypnosis is ideal here.
Gengar: Like Poliwrath, Hypnosis spam will allow it to win the match.
Sandslash: It will be able to survive a Hydro Pump from Gyarados and sweep everything else. Although a Celadon visit may be required first.
Poliwrath: Easy sweep even if he has two Psychic-type Pokemon. Giving Poliwrath Hypnosis is ideal here.
Gengar: Like Poliwrath, Hypnosis spam will allow it to win the match.
Venusaur: Should be possible with Body Slam or Double Edge, but Koga's Weezing can wall it, set up X Attacks, and eventually outdamage it.
Sandslash: Very good sweep if given STAB moves.
Poliwrath: If you got Surf from the Safari Zone, or gave it Earthquake or Psychic, then this should be a safe sweep.
Gengar: Comfortably walls out and can fight back even without the Psychic TM.
Sandslash: Very good sweep if given STAB moves.
Poliwrath: If you got Surf from the Safari Zone, or gave it Earthquake or Psychic, then this should be a safe sweep.
Gengar: Comfortably walls out and can fight back even without the Psychic TM.
Venusaur: If given Swords Dance, then it can do a sweep with a strong Normal-type move.
Sandslash: Exeggcute will wear it down for Gyarados to finish off.
Poliwrath: Similar to Sandslash, only Charizard's Slash will be the one to defeat rather than Gyarados.
Gengar: It may need to depend on Hypnosis luck to get past the Alakazam, otherwise the fight is possible.
Sandslash: Exeggcute will wear it down for Gyarados to finish off.
Poliwrath: Similar to Sandslash, only Charizard's Slash will be the one to defeat rather than Gyarados.
Gengar: It may need to depend on Hypnosis luck to get past the Alakazam, otherwise the fight is possible.
Venusaur: Even with Swords Dance, it can't beat her Alakazam. The latter will be able to outspeed it and use Psybeam for an easy kill.
Sandslash: Most of her team will be able to outspeed and gradually KO it with their STAB moves.
Poliwrath: With Hypnosis, it can get as far as Alakazam. Like with Venusaur, Alakazam can outspeed and KO it with Psybeam.
Gengar: It will need to rely on TM support and Hypnosis to get a sweep.
Sandslash: Most of her team will be able to outspeed and gradually KO it with their STAB moves.
Poliwrath: With Hypnosis, it can get as far as Alakazam. Like with Venusaur, Alakazam can outspeed and KO it with Psybeam.
Gengar: It will need to rely on TM support and Hypnosis to get a sweep.
Venusaur: Possible sweep with Swords Dance and a strong Normal-type move.
Sandslash: Very easy sweep; especially with STAB.
Poliwrath: Since you'll have the Surf HM, this will be an extremely simple sweep.
Gengar: Arcanine and Rapidash can be troublesome either if you don't give it strong TMs, like Thunderbolt and Psychic, or if you get several Hypnosis misses.
Sandslash: Very easy sweep; especially with STAB.
Poliwrath: Since you'll have the Surf HM, this will be an extremely simple sweep.
Gengar: Arcanine and Rapidash can be troublesome either if you don't give it strong TMs, like Thunderbolt and Psychic, or if you get several Hypnosis misses.
Dropping by this thread after a pause. It's cool to see so many people involved!
Here are some random mini-thoughts about some of the things we've talked about.
- "Pokémon should be tested on their own merits" has come up a few times and is one of those sayings that dates back to the previous list. But I always thought it meant "A Pokémon that's better/worse than another can still be in the same tier" (e.g. NidoranF isn't automatically in a lower tier than NidoranM just because NidoranM is better), not that comparisons are all bad
- Bulbasaur in B tier makes sense to me, it's pretty bad in the constraints given.
- re: Spearow vs. Doduo vs. Farfetch'd, I always gave Spearow (and by extension, Farfetch'd) the benefit of the doubt because they contribute early and Doduo doesn't. Spearow is pretty good at Route 3 and Mt. Moon, for instance. That's why I can see them all being in the same tier even though Doduo's faster/stronger/better once you get it. But I can see the argument both ways.
- I ran Diglett recently and it was worse than I remembered. Didn't feel like S-tier to me, especially given how useless it is against the Elite Four.
- I ran some of the Japanese Blue traded mons a few years ago (posted in the last thread). My general vague impressions: Poliwag is really good, Tauros is fine but training Meowth is annoying, Gengar is nice but suffers from the same problems as Haunter (kinda bottlenecked into Psychic/Thunderbolt TMs) and also training Machop is annoying, Golem has different Elite 4 matchups than Kadabra but is probably equally good (and getting to use a Kadabra for most of the midgame is great!)
- I agree with Hada Yaba that Nidos and Clef don't need Bubblebeam if they already have Water Gun (and even if they have neither, it's not a deal-breaker). I think we sometimes perceive of Nidos/Clef as special attackers when really for 50% of the game at least they're physical attackers due to learning Bslam/Thrash (in the Nidos' case) or having Normal STAB (in Clef's case). It's only by the Elite Four where having special moves becomes really important for them (though obviously e.g. Psychic TM is great for Clef in the midgame if it can get it, but I don't usually feel like Clefable is missing out if I let something else get Psychic, nor Ice Beam for Clef/Nidos, etc. until the E4)
- I'm intrigued by the level/rarity argument about Tentacool since iirc it's 10% to get one level 30 or above, which I have to imagine is comparable to a lot of the Seafoam pokes (as well as other pokes; Abra is 15%). My impressioin has always been that Tentacool is one of the better late-game Water Pokémon (and arguably the best) but it's also true that I usually splurge for a level 35 or 40 when I can
Are there any Pokémon we'd like to see run? I'm busy these days but could probably get a run in
Here are some random mini-thoughts about some of the things we've talked about.
- "Pokémon should be tested on their own merits" has come up a few times and is one of those sayings that dates back to the previous list. But I always thought it meant "A Pokémon that's better/worse than another can still be in the same tier" (e.g. NidoranF isn't automatically in a lower tier than NidoranM just because NidoranM is better), not that comparisons are all bad
- Bulbasaur in B tier makes sense to me, it's pretty bad in the constraints given.
- re: Spearow vs. Doduo vs. Farfetch'd, I always gave Spearow (and by extension, Farfetch'd) the benefit of the doubt because they contribute early and Doduo doesn't. Spearow is pretty good at Route 3 and Mt. Moon, for instance. That's why I can see them all being in the same tier even though Doduo's faster/stronger/better once you get it. But I can see the argument both ways.
- I ran Diglett recently and it was worse than I remembered. Didn't feel like S-tier to me, especially given how useless it is against the Elite Four.
- I ran some of the Japanese Blue traded mons a few years ago (posted in the last thread). My general vague impressions: Poliwag is really good, Tauros is fine but training Meowth is annoying, Gengar is nice but suffers from the same problems as Haunter (kinda bottlenecked into Psychic/Thunderbolt TMs) and also training Machop is annoying, Golem has different Elite 4 matchups than Kadabra but is probably equally good (and getting to use a Kadabra for most of the midgame is great!)
- I agree with Hada Yaba that Nidos and Clef don't need Bubblebeam if they already have Water Gun (and even if they have neither, it's not a deal-breaker). I think we sometimes perceive of Nidos/Clef as special attackers when really for 50% of the game at least they're physical attackers due to learning Bslam/Thrash (in the Nidos' case) or having Normal STAB (in Clef's case). It's only by the Elite Four where having special moves becomes really important for them (though obviously e.g. Psychic TM is great for Clef in the midgame if it can get it, but I don't usually feel like Clefable is missing out if I let something else get Psychic, nor Ice Beam for Clef/Nidos, etc. until the E4)
- I'm intrigued by the level/rarity argument about Tentacool since iirc it's 10% to get one level 30 or above, which I have to imagine is comparable to a lot of the Seafoam pokes (as well as other pokes; Abra is 15%). My impressioin has always been that Tentacool is one of the better late-game Water Pokémon (and arguably the best) but it's also true that I usually splurge for a level 35 or 40 when I can
Are there any Pokémon we'd like to see run? I'm busy these days but could probably get a run in
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Hmm.
-I guess we could maybe see some opinions on RB Pikachu? While Pikachu isn't much to write home about, a Raichu's STAB Thunderbolt is gonna hurt quite a few things. I don't see it being like A or anything, but it should be fairly good.
-We haven't seen many opinions on the fossils. Try sequence breaking to get Omanyte ASAP post-Surf (it can level up in Silph Co or on the routes to Fuschia. Alternatively, you could try Tentacool or Staryu.
-What about Vulpix? Saw some opinions on it in the previous thread. Level 35 Flamethrower is pretty okay, problem is getting there. That being said, Ninetales does have the benefit of having high Special in Gen 1.
-Maybe Bellsprout/Oddish could be your fourth member. You need another early thing and we haven't had a ton of opinions on the grasses yet. If you need something else early, maybe give Drowzee a shot.
Those sound good, or do you want to run something else as an alternative to those? Whatever works for you is fine with me.
Also, as for Dodrio - it's pretty good rn for me in Silph Co., but I'm noticing it doesn't quite KO everything it encounters, particularly evolved mons (unless I go for Hyper Beam).
Those sound good to me, thanks! Pikachu, Omanyte, Vulpix and I guess Bellsprout since Vulpix requires Blue version. I'm most curious about Vulpix which I probably would have pegged as a D tier but maybe has more potential than that.
Early Flamethrower sounds nice, but from my experience with Charizard, there isn't a whole lot of calling for Fire moves in generation 1 even in-game. Dig and Slash are why it's as high as it is. I still believe Vulpix is worth a try though.
I think initially trying to go for the 1% encounter may have skewed my perception of how easy it is to find a nicely leveled one (30+), since I didn't realize the level 40 Tentacool had such low odds of showing up (oh, and thanks to the person who posted the encounter slots here, that's very useful). After all, 10% doesn't sound bad in any way. If finding it isn't as annoying as I made it seem like than I think it deserves B and I would agree that it's one of the best late-game water types, around the same level as Omastar, probably just a little bit worse.
High Tiers - Start to Lavender Tower
Probably redundant with the League so close, but here are my thoughts right now:
Blastoise-still does Blastoise things by 2HKOing stuff, but the added bulk is helpful. I think I'm gonna say A tier as while it does have some failings, I don't think it's like Bulbasaur bad where it's just invalidated by everything and its mother midgame. As for a potential S tier - yeah, seems kinda unlikely. It's good, but even in the bosses it is okay for (Koga, Sabrina) it still rarely OHKOs anything but the small stuff. Blaine and Giovanni are obviously good for it, but anybody reading these lists should never lose to either of them like ever as literally all members of my team ran roughshod over them.
Dodrio is...weird in terms of viability. Against mooks, I notice you miss KOs if you use regular STABS when not hitting SE sometimes.
Hyper Beam in bosses is pretty good though - aside from Rhyhorn and super bulky stuff like Nidoqueen, everything else seems to fall, even Blue's Gyarados. it's a case where I'm not sure how I'd judge it right. I am thinking A, but B wouldn't be completely out of the question depending on how it performs at the League. Judging by Blue Pre-League, it seems like it needs to match levels-wise if it doesn't hit super-effectively. It does take a little to get off the ground level wise, and the strange issues I just mentioned are also a thing. It still is a great Pokemon though. I definitely want someone else to test Doduo in the future to see if A or B is better for it.
Nidoking seems like an S. While it does want quite a few TMS (Earthquake and Thunderbolt) it only really needs Earthquake, and Surf makes for excellent filler. Given how my Nidoking was able to sweep Gyms 5-8 on its own basically, I think that makes up for any minor hiccups it may have (Misty, Erika, slight TM reliance). It's also one of the best earlygame mons too - Horn Attack hits hard.
Kadabra is in a league all in its own. Seriously. You don't even need Alakazam. It needs virtually NO TMs AT ALL which is frankly amazing (save for maybe Thunder Wave), and literally everything in RBY is in Kadabra's favor (high crit rate, Psychic Special drops 30% of the time, Psychic type, no TMs). It gets all it needs leveling up which is exceptional for this list. Sure, Abra is annoying to get and level for a bit, but after Misty and especially by the time of Psybeam, it just destroys literally everything, even taking on 3/4 of Sabrina! S tier, S tier, S TIER! It deserves to stand proud alongside Alakazam!
Edit regarding money (I have reached the League with level 50s, using 8 Rare Candies and a couple random mooks to get Blastoise to 48 before using them): IIRC I bought my first Hyper Beam TM after Pokemon Tower. Now at the League, I have roughly $150,000. Also, after purchasing like 15 Revives, 15 Hyper Potions and a few Full Restores, I have roughly $96,000.
Thanks to some math help with Xator_Nova and some of my own, Hyper Beam's 5,500 coins cost 110,000, discounting the free 280 Coins hidden and given in the Celadon Game Corner. So even with a reasonable amount of spending, you could feasibly get two Hyper Beam TMs. Buying those 50 coins repeatedly is an exercise in carpal tunnel syndrome though!
Blastoise (41): Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot. Gyrados is average; it chips you down with Dragon Rage and Ice Beam seems like a rough 4HKO. Surf destroys Growlithe.
Pretty good for Alakazam; Confusion is like not even a 4HKO while you 2HKO with Strength (Surf is a 3HKO). Believe it or not, Blastoise is pretty great for Venusaur; Vine Whip does little damage and you can 4HKO with Strength (also it wastes a turn to use Leech Seed). Ice Beam 2HKOs Venusaur, but be warned that a Razor Leaf will take you to red HP.
Nidoking (41): Surf roughly 3HKOs Pidgeot and Thrash seems to 3HKO Gyrados. Sadly, Gyarados nukes you with Hydro Pump. One reset later I tried with Thunderbolt for good. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Pidgeot easily. Gyarados is the stumbling block; Thunderbolt leaves it in red and Hydro Pump comes very close to OHKOing Nidoking (I was left at 3 HP after a Quick Attack from Pidgeot). EQ or Surf destroy Growlithe.
Alakazam comes and uses…Confusion to 2HKO me. I fire back with EQ for the OHKO. EQ 2HKOs Venusaur who wasted a turn with Leech Seed.
Kadabra (40): Psychic 2HKOs Pidgeot, though Quick Attack does a chunk. I was at half HP when Gyrados came out, so I used Recover. I crit Gyarados with a Psychic and fell just shy of OHKOing it (implying a 3HKO is normal) while Gyarados used Leer and then missed Hydro Pump. I crit Growlithe out with a Psychic.
Next came Alakazam, which I outsped and stunned with Thunder Wave. I got a full para and then a Special drop next turn (Psychic is a 4HKO). Next turn I crit AND got another Special drop, taking Zam to half. Due to it’s Special being neutered Zam did nothing with Psybeam and I finished it off. Venusaur came out and was promptly outsped and destroyed by Psychic. I swept first try.
Dodrio (40): Hyper Beam OHKOs Pidgeot and even Gyarados (!) while Drill Peck OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam (even outspeeding the latter!) Drill Peck OHKOs Venusaur. Easy sweep. Even with just Drill Peck, it still 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados.
Pretty good for Alakazam; Confusion is like not even a 4HKO while you 2HKO with Strength (Surf is a 3HKO). Believe it or not, Blastoise is pretty great for Venusaur; Vine Whip does little damage and you can 4HKO with Strength (also it wastes a turn to use Leech Seed). Ice Beam 2HKOs Venusaur, but be warned that a Razor Leaf will take you to red HP.
Nidoking (41): Surf roughly 3HKOs Pidgeot and Thrash seems to 3HKO Gyrados. Sadly, Gyarados nukes you with Hydro Pump. One reset later I tried with Thunderbolt for good. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Pidgeot easily. Gyarados is the stumbling block; Thunderbolt leaves it in red and Hydro Pump comes very close to OHKOing Nidoking (I was left at 3 HP after a Quick Attack from Pidgeot). EQ or Surf destroy Growlithe.
Alakazam comes and uses…Confusion to 2HKO me. I fire back with EQ for the OHKO. EQ 2HKOs Venusaur who wasted a turn with Leech Seed.
Kadabra (40): Psychic 2HKOs Pidgeot, though Quick Attack does a chunk. I was at half HP when Gyrados came out, so I used Recover. I crit Gyarados with a Psychic and fell just shy of OHKOing it (implying a 3HKO is normal) while Gyarados used Leer and then missed Hydro Pump. I crit Growlithe out with a Psychic.
Next came Alakazam, which I outsped and stunned with Thunder Wave. I got a full para and then a Special drop next turn (Psychic is a 4HKO). Next turn I crit AND got another Special drop, taking Zam to half. Due to it’s Special being neutered Zam did nothing with Psybeam and I finished it off. Venusaur came out and was promptly outsped and destroyed by Psychic. I swept first try.
Dodrio (40): Hyper Beam OHKOs Pidgeot and even Gyarados (!) while Drill Peck OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam (even outspeeding the latter!) Drill Peck OHKOs Venusaur. Easy sweep. Even with just Drill Peck, it still 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados.
Giovanni 2:
Kadabra (41): Psychic OHKOs everything. Kadabra too strong.
Dodrio (41): Drill Peck leaves Nidorino alive in red and 2HKOs Kangaskhan. If you can crit Rhyhorn twice you 3HKO with Drill Peck. Drill Peck 3HKOs Nidoqueen.
Hyper Beam OHKOs Nidorino and Kangaskhan and comes VERY close to 2HKOing Rhyhorn. Hyper Beam leaves Nidoqueen in red. So Drill Peck, then Hyper Beam Nidoqueen.
Blastoise (41): Surf knocks Nidorino and Kangaskhan to red, 2HKOing them. Rhyhorn is OHKOed by Surf. Nidoqueen is knocked roughly to red by Surf.
Nidoking (41): Earthquake OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs Kangaskhan. Surf or Earthquake OHKOs Rhyhorn, and Earthquake even OHKOs Nidoqueen. Easy sweep.
Kadabra (41): Psychic OHKOs everything. Kadabra too strong.
Dodrio (41): Drill Peck leaves Nidorino alive in red and 2HKOs Kangaskhan. If you can crit Rhyhorn twice you 3HKO with Drill Peck. Drill Peck 3HKOs Nidoqueen.
Hyper Beam OHKOs Nidorino and Kangaskhan and comes VERY close to 2HKOing Rhyhorn. Hyper Beam leaves Nidoqueen in red. So Drill Peck, then Hyper Beam Nidoqueen.
Blastoise (41): Surf knocks Nidorino and Kangaskhan to red, 2HKOing them. Rhyhorn is OHKOed by Surf. Nidoqueen is knocked roughly to red by Surf.
Nidoking (41): Earthquake OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs Kangaskhan. Surf or Earthquake OHKOs Rhyhorn, and Earthquake even OHKOs Nidoqueen. Easy sweep.
Blastoise (42): Surf does not OHKO either Koffing, unfortunately knocking them to red (it looks like a range I might hit if I was a couple levels higher). Surf does 2HKO Muk though, albeit barely. Weezing is 3HKOed by Surf. Finished first in red with first turn Poison and X Attack on Muk.
Given how I was still able to basically take 3/4 of Koga’s team in an attempt with 2 Smokescreen uses and a Poison from Sludge, I’d say this matchup is mostly favorable. Really, this matchup is just gonna chip you down, but can’t outright threaten you.
Kadabra (41): It’s worth noting that if you somehow do this gym without Psychic by some possibility, both Muk and Weezing barely live Psybeam (Koffing are OHKOed).If you do have Psychic? Everything DIES. Sludge does hurt from Weezing (doing over half of Kadabra’s HP) but it should never live under normal circumstances.
Dodrio (41): Either STAB 2HKOs both Koffing and Muk while Weezing is 3HKOed. Believe it or not, Dodrio can actually live Weezing’s Selfdestruct if near full HP, though only barely.
Hyper Beam OHKOs both Koffing but leaves Muk in red and Weezing in yellow. So Hyper Beam on Koffing, Drill Peck Muk twice, then Drill Peck / Hyper Beam Weezing. Even just spamming Drill Peck works fine here due to Koga’s tendency to waste turns with X Attack.
Nidoking (41): Weezing is the only one left alive by Earthquake, living in about red HP. Weezing’s Self-destruct only does like half your HP anyway. Easy sweep.
Given how I was still able to basically take 3/4 of Koga’s team in an attempt with 2 Smokescreen uses and a Poison from Sludge, I’d say this matchup is mostly favorable. Really, this matchup is just gonna chip you down, but can’t outright threaten you.
Kadabra (41): It’s worth noting that if you somehow do this gym without Psychic by some possibility, both Muk and Weezing barely live Psybeam (Koffing are OHKOed).If you do have Psychic? Everything DIES. Sludge does hurt from Weezing (doing over half of Kadabra’s HP) but it should never live under normal circumstances.
Dodrio (41): Either STAB 2HKOs both Koffing and Muk while Weezing is 3HKOed. Believe it or not, Dodrio can actually live Weezing’s Selfdestruct if near full HP, though only barely.
Hyper Beam OHKOs both Koffing but leaves Muk in red and Weezing in yellow. So Hyper Beam on Koffing, Drill Peck Muk twice, then Drill Peck / Hyper Beam Weezing. Even just spamming Drill Peck works fine here due to Koga’s tendency to waste turns with X Attack.
Nidoking (41): Weezing is the only one left alive by Earthquake, living in about red HP. Weezing’s Self-destruct only does like half your HP anyway. Easy sweep.
Blastoise (43): Blastoise outspeeds and OHKOs Kadabra with Strength (Surf 2HKOs). Blastoise 2HKOs Mr. Mime with either Strength or Surf. Even with Light Screen up, it looks like you 4HKO Mime with Surf. Venomoth is just barely 2HKOed by Surf (to the point where Leech Life’s tiny healing denied my KO once).
Alakazam is annoying because of Reflect and Recover, and if it crits Psybeam you will be taking hefty damage (though not OHKOed, I lived with some prior chip). A regular Psybeam 3HKOs, but if Reflect isn’t up, you seem to 2HKO Alakazam with Strength. Just don’t get paralyzed from Venomoth and you have a decent shot at beating Alakazam. Even when I was paralyzed, Zam derped with Psybeam and I got one Strength off. Pretty great.
Kadabra (42): Psychic roughly 3HKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime, though it does OHKO Venomoth.
Like with Blue, you can outspeed and paralyze Alakazam. Alakazam is annoying with Recover and is pretty much the only one you can’t brute force past - Psychic’s PP is mostly drained by the time it comes out and Special drops won’t mean much with how little damage you do. This matchup is mostly saved by your critical hit rate and their inability to threaten you.
Dodrio (42): Drill Peck OHKOs Kadabra and Venomoth, though Mr. Mime and Mr. Mime are damage range to OHKO (particularly the latter). Still a pretty easy sweep regardless. You can Hyper Beam to assure the range KOs.
Nidoking (42) Outspeeds and OHKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime with Earthquake, though Venomoth is a range to OHKO. Alakazam outspeeds, and if it goes for Reflect, Earthquake will only be a 2HKO. Surprisingly, you can live Alakazam’s Psybeam in low yellow HP and OHKO it with Earthquake. Pretty easy sweep.
Alakazam is annoying because of Reflect and Recover, and if it crits Psybeam you will be taking hefty damage (though not OHKOed, I lived with some prior chip). A regular Psybeam 3HKOs, but if Reflect isn’t up, you seem to 2HKO Alakazam with Strength. Just don’t get paralyzed from Venomoth and you have a decent shot at beating Alakazam. Even when I was paralyzed, Zam derped with Psybeam and I got one Strength off. Pretty great.
Kadabra (42): Psychic roughly 3HKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime, though it does OHKO Venomoth.
Like with Blue, you can outspeed and paralyze Alakazam. Alakazam is annoying with Recover and is pretty much the only one you can’t brute force past - Psychic’s PP is mostly drained by the time it comes out and Special drops won’t mean much with how little damage you do. This matchup is mostly saved by your critical hit rate and their inability to threaten you.
Dodrio (42): Drill Peck OHKOs Kadabra and Venomoth, though Mr. Mime and Mr. Mime are damage range to OHKO (particularly the latter). Still a pretty easy sweep regardless. You can Hyper Beam to assure the range KOs.
Nidoking (42) Outspeeds and OHKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime with Earthquake, though Venomoth is a range to OHKO. Alakazam outspeeds, and if it goes for Reflect, Earthquake will only be a 2HKO. Surprisingly, you can live Alakazam’s Psybeam in low yellow HP and OHKO it with Earthquake. Pretty easy sweep.
Dodrio (44): Drill Peck OHKOs Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOs Rapidash. If Blaine Super Potions Rapidash it will take two more Drill Peck uses to beat it. Hyper Beam OHKOs Rapidash but leaves Arcanine alive in red.
It is a range to 2HKO Arcanine with Drill Peck, but Dodrio can easily take only about half from Fire Blast, so this is pretty safe. So Drill Peck on the small stuff, Beam Rapidash, then Drill Peck + Beam Arcanine (it might be a little close if Blaine Super Potions Arcanine, but it can’t threaten you).
Nidoking (44): Nidoking used Earthquake! Everything is outsped and OHKOed, though Arcanine seems to be a range.
Blastoise (44): Everything is OHKOed by Surf save for Arcanine who is 2HKOed. I even outsped Arcanine (Rapidash outspeeds though). Extremely easy sweep.
Kadabra (45): Psychic OHKOs Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOs Rapidash, leaving the latter close to red. Arcanine seems like a ronge to 2HKO (judging by how it lived a crit Psychic once IIRC), but honestly you should be fine given their tendency to derp. Easy sweep.
It is a range to 2HKO Arcanine with Drill Peck, but Dodrio can easily take only about half from Fire Blast, so this is pretty safe. So Drill Peck on the small stuff, Beam Rapidash, then Drill Peck + Beam Arcanine (it might be a little close if Blaine Super Potions Arcanine, but it can’t threaten you).
Nidoking (44): Nidoking used Earthquake! Everything is outsped and OHKOed, though Arcanine seems to be a range.
Blastoise (44): Everything is OHKOed by Surf save for Arcanine who is 2HKOed. I even outsped Arcanine (Rapidash outspeeds though). Extremely easy sweep.
Kadabra (45): Psychic OHKOs Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOs Rapidash, leaving the latter close to red. Arcanine seems like a ronge to 2HKO (judging by how it lived a crit Psychic once IIRC), but honestly you should be fine given their tendency to derp. Easy sweep.
Dodrio (45): I’m avoiding Rhyhorn and Rhydon. You OHKO Dugtrio with Drill Peck, but it seems to be damage ranges to 2HKO Nidoqueen and Nidoking with Drill Peck. You can probably Hyper Beam for the second hit if you want.
Hyper Beam probably doesn’t make much difference here. Mine OHKOed Nidoking but left Nidoqueen in red.
Nidoking (45): Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and Rhydon are OHKOed by Surf (and the former two by Earthquake). Earthquake also OHKOs both Nidoqueen and Nidoking. The only one remotely threatening you here is Dugtrio, but even its Dig does less than half (you outspeed everything else, and even then Giovanni can derp with Guard Spec.) Easy sweep.
Even if you just have Surf, the only things you 2HKO are Nidoqueen and Nidoking. Everything else is OHKOed.
Blastoise (46): Blastoise used Surf! Everything dies save Nidoqueen and Nidoking which seems to be damage ranges (they can’t threaten you anyway). Easy sweep.
Kadabra (45): Outspeeds and OHKOs everything save Rhydon with Psychic who lives in red. Easy sweep.
Hyper Beam probably doesn’t make much difference here. Mine OHKOed Nidoking but left Nidoqueen in red.
Nidoking (45): Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and Rhydon are OHKOed by Surf (and the former two by Earthquake). Earthquake also OHKOs both Nidoqueen and Nidoking. The only one remotely threatening you here is Dugtrio, but even its Dig does less than half (you outspeed everything else, and even then Giovanni can derp with Guard Spec.) Easy sweep.
Even if you just have Surf, the only things you 2HKO are Nidoqueen and Nidoking. Everything else is OHKOed.
Blastoise (46): Blastoise used Surf! Everything dies save Nidoqueen and Nidoking which seems to be damage ranges (they can’t threaten you anyway). Easy sweep.
Kadabra (45): Outspeeds and OHKOs everything save Rhydon with Psychic who lives in red. Easy sweep.
Rival 7:
Dodrio (45): Drill Peck 2HKOs Pidgeot (Hyper Beam is a range to OHKO). Avoid Rhyhorn, though you can muscle past it with Drill Peck if you want. Drill Peck 2HKOs Gyarados is a range to OHKO Growlithe. Alakazam does unfortunately outspeed this time and goes for Reflect, killing you next turn with Psychic. Drill Peck almost knocks Venusaur to red (Hyper Beam does similar damage).
Nidoking (46): Pidgeot is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt while it spams Agility. Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn. Thunderbolt is a range to OHKO Gyarados. Growlithe is OHKOed by Earthquake. Alakazam is shaky - Reflect turns Earthquake into a rough 2HKO and Psychic OHKOs you. Earthquake falls just shy of a 2HKO on Venusaur, unfortunately, and Razor Leaf 2HKOs you. Ice Beam seems to do about the same damage as Earthquake on Venusaur, judging by a crit I got once.
Blastoise (46): Ice Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot (Surf looks like a rough 2HKO) and Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn. Gyarados is again kind of a slog and looks to be a 4HKO with Strength. Surf OHKOs Growlithe. Zam is annoying with Reflect and Recover. Venusaur once again can’t threaten you with Vine Whip but Razor Leaf hurts (you 3HKO with Ice Beam).
Kadabra (45): Pidgeot is 2HKOed by Psychic, though Wing Attack can do 2/3 of your HP. Rhyhorn is OHKOed by Psychic, and you can Recover on it if you want. I got a Special drop on Gyarados but it looked like a rough 2HKO anyway. Psychic OHKOs Growlithe. Like with the previous Alakazam fights, you can get by this one with Special drops if you’re lucky. Venusaur does live Psychic this time due to level advantage, but it’s not killing you.
Dodrio (45): Drill Peck 2HKOs Pidgeot (Hyper Beam is a range to OHKO). Avoid Rhyhorn, though you can muscle past it with Drill Peck if you want. Drill Peck 2HKOs Gyarados is a range to OHKO Growlithe. Alakazam does unfortunately outspeed this time and goes for Reflect, killing you next turn with Psychic. Drill Peck almost knocks Venusaur to red (Hyper Beam does similar damage).
Nidoking (46): Pidgeot is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt while it spams Agility. Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn. Thunderbolt is a range to OHKO Gyarados. Growlithe is OHKOed by Earthquake. Alakazam is shaky - Reflect turns Earthquake into a rough 2HKO and Psychic OHKOs you. Earthquake falls just shy of a 2HKO on Venusaur, unfortunately, and Razor Leaf 2HKOs you. Ice Beam seems to do about the same damage as Earthquake on Venusaur, judging by a crit I got once.
Blastoise (46): Ice Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot (Surf looks like a rough 2HKO) and Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn. Gyarados is again kind of a slog and looks to be a 4HKO with Strength. Surf OHKOs Growlithe. Zam is annoying with Reflect and Recover. Venusaur once again can’t threaten you with Vine Whip but Razor Leaf hurts (you 3HKO with Ice Beam).
Kadabra (45): Pidgeot is 2HKOed by Psychic, though Wing Attack can do 2/3 of your HP. Rhyhorn is OHKOed by Psychic, and you can Recover on it if you want. I got a Special drop on Gyarados but it looked like a rough 2HKO anyway. Psychic OHKOs Growlithe. Like with the previous Alakazam fights, you can get by this one with Special drops if you’re lucky. Venusaur does live Psychic this time due to level advantage, but it’s not killing you.
Blastoise-still does Blastoise things by 2HKOing stuff, but the added bulk is helpful. I think I'm gonna say A tier as while it does have some failings, I don't think it's like Bulbasaur bad where it's just invalidated by everything and its mother midgame. As for a potential S tier - yeah, seems kinda unlikely. It's good, but even in the bosses it is okay for (Koga, Sabrina) it still rarely OHKOs anything but the small stuff. Blaine and Giovanni are obviously good for it, but anybody reading these lists should never lose to either of them like ever as literally all members of my team ran roughshod over them.
Dodrio is...weird in terms of viability. Against mooks, I notice you miss KOs if you use regular STABS when not hitting SE sometimes.
Hyper Beam in bosses is pretty good though - aside from Rhyhorn and super bulky stuff like Nidoqueen, everything else seems to fall, even Blue's Gyarados. it's a case where I'm not sure how I'd judge it right. I am thinking A, but B wouldn't be completely out of the question depending on how it performs at the League. Judging by Blue Pre-League, it seems like it needs to match levels-wise if it doesn't hit super-effectively. It does take a little to get off the ground level wise, and the strange issues I just mentioned are also a thing. It still is a great Pokemon though. I definitely want someone else to test Doduo in the future to see if A or B is better for it.
Nidoking seems like an S. While it does want quite a few TMS (Earthquake and Thunderbolt) it only really needs Earthquake, and Surf makes for excellent filler. Given how my Nidoking was able to sweep Gyms 5-8 on its own basically, I think that makes up for any minor hiccups it may have (Misty, Erika, slight TM reliance). It's also one of the best earlygame mons too - Horn Attack hits hard.
Kadabra is in a league all in its own. Seriously. You don't even need Alakazam. It needs virtually NO TMs AT ALL which is frankly amazing (save for maybe Thunder Wave), and literally everything in RBY is in Kadabra's favor (high crit rate, Psychic Special drops 30% of the time, Psychic type, no TMs). It gets all it needs leveling up which is exceptional for this list. Sure, Abra is annoying to get and level for a bit, but after Misty and especially by the time of Psybeam, it just destroys literally everything, even taking on 3/4 of Sabrina! S tier, S tier, S TIER! It deserves to stand proud alongside Alakazam!
Edit regarding money (I have reached the League with level 50s, using 8 Rare Candies and a couple random mooks to get Blastoise to 48 before using them): IIRC I bought my first Hyper Beam TM after Pokemon Tower. Now at the League, I have roughly $150,000. Also, after purchasing like 15 Revives, 15 Hyper Potions and a few Full Restores, I have roughly $96,000.
Thanks to some math help with Xator_Nova and some of my own, Hyper Beam's 5,500 coins cost 110,000, discounting the free 280 Coins hidden and given in the Celadon Game Corner. So even with a reasonable amount of spending, you could feasibly get two Hyper Beam TMs. Buying those 50 coins repeatedly is an exercise in carpal tunnel syndrome though!
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I'm still fairly early in my run, but figured it would be appropriate to post my progress so far.
My team will most likely be Spearow/Oddish/Mr.Mime/Horsea.
Current impressions:
-Spearow has been really good. Its early-route trainer match-ups are favourable enough to just throw it into the midst of things without any prior training and have it perform. Once it gets Fury Attack, it's powerful enough to 2HKO or even OHKO most of the generic mooks and even have a good (albeit shaky) match-up against Misty. Its frailty sometimes prevents it from cleanly sweeping; while it can beat most 'mons 1v1 it often takes a decent chunk of damage in return and may be too injured at times to fight another 'mon it usually could. We'll see how it holds up, but for now I'd say B is justified.
-Oddish had a very rocky start. Absorb just does not deal good damage unless it's super effective, and even then the damage output stays rather disappointing (my lv. 14 Oddish failed to OHKO a lv. 13 Geodude, for instance). There have been some positives, such as a very safe (albeit slow) Misty match-up, but it really needs better moves to make its future look less gloomy. I do have some hopes for it down the line, but so far D feels like the most appropriate tier.
My team will most likely be Spearow/Oddish/Mr.Mime/Horsea.
HP/Atk/Def/Spe/Spc
Spearow: 15/9/15/11/5
Oddish: 9/5/6/2/13
(calculated with https://tewky.github.io/dvcalculator/)
Spearow: 15/9/15/11/5
Oddish: 9/5/6/2/13
(calculated with https://tewky.github.io/dvcalculator/)
Spearow(18):
Pidgeotto is 3RKOd on average (8-9 Fury Attack hits depending on damage rolls, Leer lowers this to 6), but Gust/Quick Attack is a 3HKO on Spearow as well, and Sand Attack is very annoying as always; especially given Fury Attack's imperfect accuracy.
You'll probably have to spend a turn to heal/switch against Abra, which otherwise is a non-issue (3 Fury Attack hits).
Rattata is always 2RKOd with a decent chance of an ORKO (4 Fury Attack hits or 3 on a critical).
Bulbasaur gets cleanly 2HKOd by Peck; I'd assume Charmander/Squirtle would take ~8 Fury Attacks
Pidgeotto is 3RKOd on average (8-9 Fury Attack hits depending on damage rolls, Leer lowers this to 6), but Gust/Quick Attack is a 3HKO on Spearow as well, and Sand Attack is very annoying as always; especially given Fury Attack's imperfect accuracy.
You'll probably have to spend a turn to heal/switch against Abra, which otherwise is a non-issue (3 Fury Attack hits).
Rattata is always 2RKOd with a decent chance of an ORKO (4 Fury Attack hits or 3 on a critical).
Bulbasaur gets cleanly 2HKOd by Peck; I'd assume Charmander/Squirtle would take ~8 Fury Attacks
My team at this point was Fearow(22) and Oddish(19), but to compare performances, I also did the fight for Gloom(21) and Fearow(23)
(using Rare Candies after loading the save).
Fearow(23) I did because it outsped Misty's Starmie (while Fearow(22) merely speed-tied) and because the jump in damage output is significant (due to the way rounding works in gen 1 damage calculation)
Fearow(22)/Fearow(23): Staryu is a non-issue, being potentially ORKOd by Fury Attack (4 hits) and dealing minimal damage in return.
The Starmie fight is a tad unreliable since Bubblebeam 3HKOs, Starmie has a high crit rate and Fury Attack's accuracy is not great.
Fearow(22) needs ~10 Fury Attack hits to KO Starmie (not a 3HKO on average) or 6 Fury Attack hits after a Leer (3HKO unless Misty uses X-Defend). Fearow(23) only needs ~8 Fury Attack hits, meaning it can skip the Leer for a small 2HKO chance.
Oddish(19): Staryu is 3HKOd while Absorb heals off any damage done by it.
Absorb is a 6HKO on Starmie and heals Oddish by ~10% everytime it hits, meaning Starmie's Tackle, which would normally be a 5HKO, instead takes 9 hits. Starmie's high crit rate makes it very desirable for Oddish to have Sleep Powder at its disposal to make the fight safer, though.
Gloom(21): Absorb barely fails to 2HKO Staryu and 5HKOs Starmie, while healing off basically all of the damage dealt.
(using Rare Candies after loading the save).
Fearow(23) I did because it outsped Misty's Starmie (while Fearow(22) merely speed-tied) and because the jump in damage output is significant (due to the way rounding works in gen 1 damage calculation)
Fearow(22)/Fearow(23): Staryu is a non-issue, being potentially ORKOd by Fury Attack (4 hits) and dealing minimal damage in return.
The Starmie fight is a tad unreliable since Bubblebeam 3HKOs, Starmie has a high crit rate and Fury Attack's accuracy is not great.
Fearow(22) needs ~10 Fury Attack hits to KO Starmie (not a 3HKO on average) or 6 Fury Attack hits after a Leer (3HKO unless Misty uses X-Defend). Fearow(23) only needs ~8 Fury Attack hits, meaning it can skip the Leer for a small 2HKO chance.
Oddish(19): Staryu is 3HKOd while Absorb heals off any damage done by it.
Absorb is a 6HKO on Starmie and heals Oddish by ~10% everytime it hits, meaning Starmie's Tackle, which would normally be a 5HKO, instead takes 9 hits. Starmie's high crit rate makes it very desirable for Oddish to have Sleep Powder at its disposal to make the fight safer, though.
Gloom(21): Absorb barely fails to 2HKO Staryu and 5HKOs Starmie, while healing off basically all of the damage dealt.
Current impressions:
-Spearow has been really good. Its early-route trainer match-ups are favourable enough to just throw it into the midst of things without any prior training and have it perform. Once it gets Fury Attack, it's powerful enough to 2HKO or even OHKO most of the generic mooks and even have a good (albeit shaky) match-up against Misty. Its frailty sometimes prevents it from cleanly sweeping; while it can beat most 'mons 1v1 it often takes a decent chunk of damage in return and may be too injured at times to fight another 'mon it usually could. We'll see how it holds up, but for now I'd say B is justified.
-Oddish had a very rocky start. Absorb just does not deal good damage unless it's super effective, and even then the damage output stays rather disappointing (my lv. 14 Oddish failed to OHKO a lv. 13 Geodude, for instance). There have been some positives, such as a very safe (albeit slow) Misty match-up, but it really needs better moves to make its future look less gloomy. I do have some hopes for it down the line, but so far D feels like the most appropriate tier.
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Previous posts for my high tier run:
High Tiers - Start to Lavender Tower
High Tiers - Silph Co. to Pre-League
And now, the rankings!
Broken Psychic is broken. While it may have some small struggles (switch training until Bill, having some trouble with Misty/Sabrina/Lance, possibly needing a PP restoration in the Elite Four) this Pokemon is just a beast. Even with those downsides, it's constantly having Poison types to prey on in the mook base, most notably S.S. Anne and a lot of midgame. It gets virtually every move it needs leveling up, too. I could've maybe used Sesmic Toss against fellow Zam, but it doesn't NEED it (only needs Thunder Wave).
I see no reason why Abra in general shouldn't just be treated as one Pokemon in S. I'll probably default to using this thing or Nidoking if I need some low-tier squads carried.
Yeah, S tier. While Nidoran Male may not be on the level of "wow you have to try to not win with this thing" like Abra, it is still fantastic. Let's review:
-Horn Attack is one of the best options for earlygame (resisting Poison Sting is a nice bonus).
-Thrash early makes it steamroll the mook base, delivering OHKOs to most targets.
-Just as Thrash starts falling off (read: when Trainers midgame use bulky mons that can take at least one Thrash, making confusion annoying) you get Surf and Earthquake, immediately pulling up the punch.
-Sweeps most gyms from Lt. Surge onward, bar Erika.
-Pretty great at the League overall (most notably sweeping Agatha and Bruno, the former of which is generally difficult to sweep), being solid everywhere but Lorelei and some parts of the Champion.
-It does want some TMs, especially Thunderbolt, but they aren't necessarily required as the things you want Thunderbolt for (Gyarados, Lorelei) kinda threaten you anyway. Ice Beam/Blizzard can help as Lance can derp, but even THEN, it's still only him and Erika mostly. It's very unlikely Nidoking wouldn't get at least one of Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Blizzard.
Water Gun / (presumably) BubbleBeam are borderline superfluous as that's only really relevant at Rock Tunnel and you will be using Horn Attack / Thrash most of the time. You only want Surf as your Water move and Nidoking could likely be just fine without Water Gun / BubbleBeam until then.
-As for the Earthquake TM...I honestly don't consider that too much of an issue considering if you need another Ground move on your team, you can simply give something else Dig (which Nidoking/Queen bizarrely don't learn).
-Any minor failings it may have would be petty to penalize this thing for, and just can't offset its sheer dominance. It's to the point where you can sweep some scrubs with non-STAB Surf, for crying out loud.
Leaning toward B tier on Doduo/Dodrio, though if some people want to argue A, I'll hear them out. Dodrio is a good Pokemon, but as you get further in the game, it has a nasty tendency to rely on Hyper Beam to finish some things off after a Drill Peck, which definitely becomes apparent at the Pokemon League, some of which (Lorelei, Lance) can really damage it back if it fails to KO. Another problem with it is that if it doesn't land a critical hit (slim, but possible) it can often struggle to OHKO some of the mook base with regular STAB moves, as it seldom hits super effectively.
Combine these problems with some grinding needed to get off the ground (granted, Sandshrew, a fellow A tier, also needed this) and I'm not quite sold of its placement in A. If it was a little more consistent killing mooks, I think I'd be for A, but I'm not so sure. It also will likely need a PP item for Hyper Beam in the Elite Four.It's definitely the best Flying type in the game (I'd wager it's more useful than Farfetch'd at the League) but whether it's an A tier remains to be seen. Again, Doduo / Dodrio likely need some more tests to determine its placing.
I'm putting Squirtle in its own spoiler folder as my summary is substantially longer for it. TLDR: It's lack of power and only good matchups keep it in A tier instead of S.
I'm going to be comparing this to some of the S tiers in my assessment. I generally compare S tiers more than most as they really need to be a clear stage above most other things and a power level
Positives:
-By far the best starter for Brock, soloing at an early level (despite all starters beating him).
-Pretty good for Misty, though 6HKOing Starmie with Mega Punch is really a drag.
-Despite the negative Lt. Surge matchup, you can still take out everything but Raichu as Voltorb and Pikachu can't threaten you.
-Fairly self-sufficient movewise, only really needing BubbleBeam and Mega Punch, which are fairly uncontested.
-Fantastic for all Giiovanni battles, Blaine and Bruno. Pretty good for Lance too, though a sweep may be shaky due to Hyper Beam spam.
Negatives;
-Has some power issues pre-BubbleBeam, as Mega Punch is generally better than Water Gun to achieve 2HKOs. Even with BubbleBeam, unlike Kadabra's Confusion and Nidoking's Thrash, Wartortle is likely to be barely 2HKOing most things compared to the other two who generally knock their targets to red if not outright OHKO them.
-Water is a pretty popular type on the mook base, and Squirtle generally doesn't like them and the occasional Grass types. Right after you get BubbleBeam on S.S. Anne, you are forced right back into missing Mega Punch again for a bit, and you also have some Swimmers/Fisherman near Cinnabar that will force you to spam non-STAB Strength. This sort of mediocrity with the mooks isn't a one-time thing - it also doesn't like the Gastly line in Pokemon Tower / Agatha with their high Special and the Abra line (most notably Alakazam) can be annoying to kill reliably because of Reflect and Recover.
Midgame is fairly better mook wise as you can spam Surf after you get it, but then Blastoise has some issues with the Psychic types in the Fuschia and Saffron Gyms. Granted, Psychic is broken and causes issues for almost everything. Against almost everything else? Yeah it generally 2HKOs with Surf, which is fine, but it almost never OHKOs - for example, even something like a Viridian Gym mook with Machoke lived Surf in red IIRC.
-I could overlook the meh mook base if Blastoise was excellent in bosses. While Blastoise turns in a pretty good showing, I don't think it's S. As stated, it takes forever to kill Misty's Starmie (granted, even a slow but good matchup is kinda above average there). It's okay for Surge, dealing with the small stuff, but not the ace mon (turning in a similar performance for Sabrina, mostly due to her weak moves).
Wartortle outright folds to Erika more or less, even with Ice Beam (she deals too much damage). Blastoise sweeps Koga but Smokescreen can cause issues and it doesn't even OHKO his Koffing with Surf, again accentuating the lack of power. It sweeps Blaine and all of Giovanni's battles with virtually no issues...
...but then it runs into some issues at the League with both Agatha (I'm gonna assume you don't give this thing Dig, as that's the most contested physical TM in the game and all uses of it for Wartortle are too niche to really justify the cost in my opinion) and especially Lorelei. It sweeps Bruno, but so does literally anything else just about, and its performance against Lance isn't as watertight as the Ice Beam access may suggest due to level disparity and Hyper Beam spam wearing it down.
Champion Blue also leans slightly average for Blastoise, as Venusaur, Alakazam and (usually) Gyarados can easily overpower it, though it beats Pidgeot, Arcanine and Venusaur fine.
Overall assessment:
Squirtle is a great starter, but I don't feel like it's on the level of Abra and Nidoran Male (I still need to test Nidoran Female) and is a good fit for A tier. It's a clear step behind both in the mook base and Squirtle generally doesn't sweep as many bosses as quickly as the other two do (despite Nidoking sharing meh matchups for Misty and Erika, it makes up for this by sweeping the second half of Gyms pretty reliably). The Squirtle line 2HKOing things in general is fine, but a S tier generally needs to be scoring a lot more OHKOs, which the line fails to do most of the time unless it's hitting super effectively with BubbleBeam/Surf. While Squirtle's TM dependency is better than Nidoking's but behind Abra, which is pretty good, it still fails to make up for the lack of power Squirtle generally has throughout its life.
Whew, that was pretty long. It's worth noting my work schedule IRL has picked up substantially, so I won't have as much time to test as usual, but it also depends on how I feel (I'll be most busy on Thursdays/Fridays + Mondays, so I may have a lull in progress those days). Next run, I'm probably going to be testing Charmander, Niodran Female, Clefairy, and either Tentacool / Omanyte / Cloyster perhaps.
Also, do you guys read my tests? Are they helpful for supporting my arguments or are they TOO long-winded and specific? I wouldn't mind some feedback, and I can definitely understand if people think they are too long.
Keep up the great work everyone!
High Tiers - Start to Lavender Tower
High Tiers - Silph Co. to Pre-League
Blastoise (50): Strength seems to be a 4HKO on Dewgong (though I crit one). Strength 2HKOs Jynx whose Thrash does nothing. Surf and Strength seem to be 5HKOs on Cloyster and apparently for Slowbro. I wouldn’t advise fighting Slowbro though, as it can Withdraw and Amnesia - you need to take it out quickly. Lapras is also something Blastoise should not fight - Confuse Ray and Body Slam paralysis simply make what looks to be a 6HKO a slog.
Overall, I disagree with Haba Yaba here: almost every single member have something that sucks for Blastoise: Dewgong has the 33.2% chance to lower Attack with Aurora Beam along with Growl and Rest, Cloyster has Clamp, Supersonic (Full Restores do NOT heal confusion status in Gen 1) and Spike Cannon (if it rolls the 13.67 crit chance on first hit, it will likely do a good chunk). Slowbro as stated is a pain to kill with Growl/Withdraw and Amnesia, and Lapras has both Body Slam and Confuse Ray and takes like six hits to kill. Only Jynx is something that’s relatively easy for Blastoise to kill.
Kadabra (50): Dewgong is roughly 2HKOed by Psychic while Cloyster is left in red HP (just use Psybeam to 2HKO here if you have it). Psychic seems to 4HKO Slowbro and Jynx and 3HKO Lapras. Decent, but you will probably want to conserve your STAB for the upcoming bosses instead.
Dodrio (50): Dewgong tanks Hyper Beam in red and does similar damage to you with Aurora Beam. Drill Peck is a 3HKO. Hyper Beam only knocks Cloyster and Slowbro to roughly half (Drill Peck roughly 4HKOs Cloyster and 3HKOs Slowbro on damage ranges) Drill Peck OHKOs Jynx and 4HKOs Lapras, and Hyper Beam does 2/3 to Lapras (whose Blizzard murders you). Meh, they mostly threaten you too much from what I remember.
Nidoking (50): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Dewgong whose Aurora Beam 2HKOs you. You knock Cloyster to low yellow with Thunderbolt, but be wary of Clamp. Thunderbolt 3HKOs Slowbro but Amnesia may prevent this. Jynx’s Ice Punch will outspeed and do 2/3 of your HP, but you murder it back with EQ. Thunderbolt looks like a 4HKO on Lapras.
Overall, I disagree with Haba Yaba here: almost every single member have something that sucks for Blastoise: Dewgong has the 33.2% chance to lower Attack with Aurora Beam along with Growl and Rest, Cloyster has Clamp, Supersonic (Full Restores do NOT heal confusion status in Gen 1) and Spike Cannon (if it rolls the 13.67 crit chance on first hit, it will likely do a good chunk). Slowbro as stated is a pain to kill with Growl/Withdraw and Amnesia, and Lapras has both Body Slam and Confuse Ray and takes like six hits to kill. Only Jynx is something that’s relatively easy for Blastoise to kill.
Kadabra (50): Dewgong is roughly 2HKOed by Psychic while Cloyster is left in red HP (just use Psybeam to 2HKO here if you have it). Psychic seems to 4HKO Slowbro and Jynx and 3HKO Lapras. Decent, but you will probably want to conserve your STAB for the upcoming bosses instead.
Dodrio (50): Dewgong tanks Hyper Beam in red and does similar damage to you with Aurora Beam. Drill Peck is a 3HKO. Hyper Beam only knocks Cloyster and Slowbro to roughly half (Drill Peck roughly 4HKOs Cloyster and 3HKOs Slowbro on damage ranges) Drill Peck OHKOs Jynx and 4HKOs Lapras, and Hyper Beam does 2/3 to Lapras (whose Blizzard murders you). Meh, they mostly threaten you too much from what I remember.
Nidoking (50): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Dewgong whose Aurora Beam 2HKOs you. You knock Cloyster to low yellow with Thunderbolt, but be wary of Clamp. Thunderbolt 3HKOs Slowbro but Amnesia may prevent this. Jynx’s Ice Punch will outspeed and do 2/3 of your HP, but you murder it back with EQ. Thunderbolt looks like a 4HKO on Lapras.
Blastoise (50): Outspeed and OHKO both Onix and with Surf. Machamp is 3HKOed by Surf. Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee looks like to be damage ranges to OHKO with Surf, but they do nothing. Easy sweep.
Kadabra (50): Good one. You OHKO everything save Machamp with just Psybeam (nice as it helps you conserve Psychic PP). Machamp is the only one you need to use Psychic to kill.
Dodrio (50): Can’t fight both Onix, but OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee with Drill Peck. Machamp lives a Drill Peck in low yellow but does nothing major (Submission does 2/3 of your HP but you’ll have no prior damage from the others).
Also, I had an attempt where I Hyper Beamed Machamp, and on the recharge turn Bruno used X Defend instead of killing me. Gen 1 Ai everyone. Anyway, easy “sweep.”
Nidoking (50): Outspeed and OHKO both Onix and with Surf (note they actually live EQ in red). Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are 2HKOed by Earthquake or Surf, but Chan does nothing (even a critical hit Ice Punch only does 1/3). To elaborate on Lee above, Lee looks like a range to OHKO with EQ, but only does like 30 with HJK. Machamp seems like a damage range you barely miss to 2HKO with EQ. You’ll might worn down some, but you should sweep fine.
Kadabra (50): Good one. You OHKO everything save Machamp with just Psybeam (nice as it helps you conserve Psychic PP). Machamp is the only one you need to use Psychic to kill.
Dodrio (50): Can’t fight both Onix, but OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee with Drill Peck. Machamp lives a Drill Peck in low yellow but does nothing major (Submission does 2/3 of your HP but you’ll have no prior damage from the others).
Also, I had an attempt where I Hyper Beamed Machamp, and on the recharge turn Bruno used X Defend instead of killing me. Gen 1 Ai everyone. Anyway, easy “sweep.”
Nidoking (50): Outspeed and OHKO both Onix and with Surf (note they actually live EQ in red). Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are 2HKOed by Earthquake or Surf, but Chan does nothing (even a critical hit Ice Punch only does 1/3). To elaborate on Lee above, Lee looks like a range to OHKO with EQ, but only does like 30 with HJK. Machamp seems like a damage range you barely miss to 2HKO with EQ. You’ll might worn down some, but you should sweep fine.
Blastoise (50): Gengar is 4HKOed by Surf. Golbat is 3HKOed by Surf and 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Haunter is 3HKOed by Surf. Arbok is barely 2HKOed by Surf. The last Gengar is 4HKOed by Surf. Blastoise’s lack of Speed is very annoying here, all the Ghosts and Golbat outpace it and can hax it out.
Sleep and confusion are just way too annoying here when you can’t KO things quickly. Also, Dig knocks both Gengar to red and OHKOs Haunter. Dig also roughly knocks Arbok to red. Mediocre with Surf, okay with Dig.
Kadabra (51): Unfortunately, Psychic only knocks Gengar to red, but you still outspeed, which is nice (Psybeam 2HKOs just as fine). Psychic is needed to OHKO Golbat and Haunter though. Psychic or Psybeam OHKOs Arbok.
The second Gengar outspeeds and can be annoying with Confuse Ray, but you still 2HKO with Psychic / Psybeam like the previous Gengar. Pretty easy sweep, even the Gengar mostly just spam status or Dream Eater and generally can’t kill you unless they spam Night Shade (3HKO).
Dodrio (50): Thankfully outpaces everything save for the second Gengar. 2HKOs both Gengar and Haunter with Drill Peck, though oddly Golbat and Arbok are damage ranges to 2HKO with Drill Peck. The second Gengar also seems to come close to avoiding a 2HKO. However, Hyper Beam does OHKO Golbat (on a range) and Arbok (doesn’t seem to be a range), so that is helpful.
Nidoking (51): Confuse Ray is annoying, but if you get Earthquake off, Gengar is OHKOed. Outspeed and 2HKO Golbat with Thunderbolt. Outspeed and OHKO Haunter and Arbok with EQ. Second Gengar is pretty much the same as the first. Easy sweep. Confuse Ray may be annoying, but this is still one of the best Agatha sweepers period.
Sleep and confusion are just way too annoying here when you can’t KO things quickly. Also, Dig knocks both Gengar to red and OHKOs Haunter. Dig also roughly knocks Arbok to red. Mediocre with Surf, okay with Dig.
Kadabra (51): Unfortunately, Psychic only knocks Gengar to red, but you still outspeed, which is nice (Psybeam 2HKOs just as fine). Psychic is needed to OHKO Golbat and Haunter though. Psychic or Psybeam OHKOs Arbok.
The second Gengar outspeeds and can be annoying with Confuse Ray, but you still 2HKO with Psychic / Psybeam like the previous Gengar. Pretty easy sweep, even the Gengar mostly just spam status or Dream Eater and generally can’t kill you unless they spam Night Shade (3HKO).
Dodrio (50): Thankfully outpaces everything save for the second Gengar. 2HKOs both Gengar and Haunter with Drill Peck, though oddly Golbat and Arbok are damage ranges to 2HKO with Drill Peck. The second Gengar also seems to come close to avoiding a 2HKO. However, Hyper Beam does OHKO Golbat (on a range) and Arbok (doesn’t seem to be a range), so that is helpful.
Nidoking (51): Confuse Ray is annoying, but if you get Earthquake off, Gengar is OHKOed. Outspeed and 2HKO Golbat with Thunderbolt. Outspeed and OHKO Haunter and Arbok with EQ. Second Gengar is pretty much the same as the first. Easy sweep. Confuse Ray may be annoying, but this is still one of the best Agatha sweepers period.
Blastoise (50): Gyarados is pretty bad - Leer can soften you up for a Hyper Beam KO easily and Blastoise only 5HKOs Gyrados with Strength. Without debuffs though, Hyper Beam is a rough 2HKO on Blastoise depending on level. Probably not a sweep, but solid.
Dragonair are outsped and knocked to low yellow by Ice Beam, while their Hyper Beam does about 1/3 of your HP. Dragonite is also knocked to low yellow by Ice Beam, but Slam can still sting being just shy of a 3HKO. Also, Dragonite’s Hyper Beam 2HKOs. Tanks Aerodactyl’s Hyper Beam like a champ (note it comes out before Dragonite IIRC), avoiding the 2HKO from Aerodactyl, but it lives Surf in red.
Kadabra (51): Perhaps Kadabra’s worst matchup. You only do 1/3 of Gyarados’s HP with Psychic and crit Hydro Pump OHKOs. However, if you are lucky enough to roll the 33.3% Special drop on Psychic’s first hit, you 2HKO Gyarados.
Dragonair seem to be knocked to low yellow from Psychic (also 2HKOed by Psybeam). Slam can hurt if it connects - it 2HKOs you and Hyper Beam can OHKO you with just a little prior chip damage.
Aerodactyl is unadvised - it outspeeds and OHKOs you with non-crit Hyper Beam. Dragonite is also unadvised - you barely 3HKO it with Psychic and Hyper Beam OHKOs you.
Dodrio (50): Drill Peck + Hyper Beam KOs Gyarados (note Gyarados’s Hyper Beam only does 2/3 of your HP, you comfortably live). Hyper Beam OHKOs both Dragonair, though Drill Peck 2HKOs them (their Hyper Beam is actually not a 2HKO, though it comes close).
Aerodactyl is a definite no - it takes like 4 hits of Drill Peck to kill (you outspeed) but a Hyper Beam from Aerodactyl does 2/3s of your HP even if it doesn’t land a critical hit.Dragonite is shaky - your Hyper Beam barely 2HKOs it while his leaves you in red, though you do outspeed. Drill Peck is a 4HKO. Solid overall.
Nidoking (52): Thunderbolt does 2/3s of Gyarados’s HP who OHKOs you right back with Hydro Pump. Ice Beam 2HKOs both Dragonair who spam Agility to no effect. Also, Earthquake does similar damage to Ice Beam on the Dragonair (both do 2/3s of their HP). Surf 2HKOs Aerodactyl, but watch out for Hyper Beam - if it crits, it’s gonna likely OHKO you (I survived at one HP once). Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragonite who also spams Agility. You also outspeed everyone but Aerodactyl, notably.
A sweep is very shaky here. Gyarados’s Hydro Pump needs to miss, and even if you get past that, even Take Down and Bite from Aerodactyl can do heavy damage to Nidoking if they land critical hits IIRC (I was left at like 3 HP). Still good for Dragonair and Dragonite regardless of moveset because of their stupidity, but optimal with an Ice move.
Dragonair are outsped and knocked to low yellow by Ice Beam, while their Hyper Beam does about 1/3 of your HP. Dragonite is also knocked to low yellow by Ice Beam, but Slam can still sting being just shy of a 3HKO. Also, Dragonite’s Hyper Beam 2HKOs. Tanks Aerodactyl’s Hyper Beam like a champ (note it comes out before Dragonite IIRC), avoiding the 2HKO from Aerodactyl, but it lives Surf in red.
Kadabra (51): Perhaps Kadabra’s worst matchup. You only do 1/3 of Gyarados’s HP with Psychic and crit Hydro Pump OHKOs. However, if you are lucky enough to roll the 33.3% Special drop on Psychic’s first hit, you 2HKO Gyarados.
Dragonair seem to be knocked to low yellow from Psychic (also 2HKOed by Psybeam). Slam can hurt if it connects - it 2HKOs you and Hyper Beam can OHKO you with just a little prior chip damage.
Aerodactyl is unadvised - it outspeeds and OHKOs you with non-crit Hyper Beam. Dragonite is also unadvised - you barely 3HKO it with Psychic and Hyper Beam OHKOs you.
Dodrio (50): Drill Peck + Hyper Beam KOs Gyarados (note Gyarados’s Hyper Beam only does 2/3 of your HP, you comfortably live). Hyper Beam OHKOs both Dragonair, though Drill Peck 2HKOs them (their Hyper Beam is actually not a 2HKO, though it comes close).
Aerodactyl is a definite no - it takes like 4 hits of Drill Peck to kill (you outspeed) but a Hyper Beam from Aerodactyl does 2/3s of your HP even if it doesn’t land a critical hit.Dragonite is shaky - your Hyper Beam barely 2HKOs it while his leaves you in red, though you do outspeed. Drill Peck is a 4HKO. Solid overall.
Nidoking (52): Thunderbolt does 2/3s of Gyarados’s HP who OHKOs you right back with Hydro Pump. Ice Beam 2HKOs both Dragonair who spam Agility to no effect. Also, Earthquake does similar damage to Ice Beam on the Dragonair (both do 2/3s of their HP). Surf 2HKOs Aerodactyl, but watch out for Hyper Beam - if it crits, it’s gonna likely OHKO you (I survived at one HP once). Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragonite who also spams Agility. You also outspeed everyone but Aerodactyl, notably.
A sweep is very shaky here. Gyarados’s Hydro Pump needs to miss, and even if you get past that, even Take Down and Bite from Aerodactyl can do heavy damage to Nidoking if they land critical hits IIRC (I was left at like 3 HP). Still good for Dragonair and Dragonite regardless of moveset because of their stupidity, but optimal with an Ice move.
Blastoise (50): Pidgeot is pretty safe here; even critical-hit Wing Attacks don’t even 3HKO you. Both Surf and Ice Beam seem to 3HKO Pidgeot. Alakazam is a losing battle, Surf 4HKOs it and Psychic easily 2HKOs you, and Zam tends to Recover off your damage. Strength can 3HKO, but if he uses Reflect, forget about it.
Rhydon is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, and Arcanine does nothing and is 2HKOed by Surf.
Gyarados is a loss for Blastoise generally - it roughly 2HKOs with Hyper Beam and you…6HKO it with Strength or Ice Beam, though you can beat it if you get a lucky freeze, as Blue doesn’t switch.
3HKOs Venusaur with Ice Beam, but both Razor Leaf and SolarBeam OHKO Blastoise, so you probably aren’t killing Venusaur.
Kadabra (51): Good for Pidgeot, you outspeed and Psychic 2HKOS. You can paralyze Alakazam and hopefully muscle past it with Special drops. I did it I think three times, but it’s not ideal as he’s clearly more powerful; I had one attempts where I used 8 Psychics and only one got a Special drop. Psychic does 2/3 to Rhydon 2HKOing it while it does nothing.
Psychic 3HKOs Gyarados who may be risky because of Hyper Beam in the background. Arcanine is 3HKOed by Psychic but watch out for Take Down. Excellent for Venusaur, you easily outspeed and do 2/3 with Psychic while Blue can’t really kill you at all.
Dodrio (51): Drill Peck 3HKOs Pidgeot who does minimal damage. Hyper Beam does 2/3’s to Pidgeot, so Drill Peck + Hyper Beam kills it.
Alakazam outspeeds you, but you do live Psychic. Drill Peck 3HKOs if it goes for Reflect. Anyway, Hyper Beam OHKOs if no Reflect is up. Avoid Rhydon.
Drill Peck seems to 3HKO Gyarados, but Drill Peck + Hyper Beam does while Hydro Pump looks like a range to OHKO you. Kinda eh as Drill Peck + Hyper Beam doesn’t seem to 2HKO Gyarados unless you land one critical hit.
Drill Peck + Hyper Beam 2HKOs Arcanine. Drill Peck does 2/3 of Venusaur’s HP and it’s not killing you.
Nidoking (52): Thunderbolt misses the 2HKO on Pidgeot, though Blizzard does 2/3 (watch out for Mirror Move, Blizzard does 2/3 your HP). Anyway, Thunderbolt, then Blizzard should beat Pidgeot. Sky Attack 2HKOs.
Don’t bother with Alakazam; Psychic OHKOs and it easily seems to go for it. Gyarados is shaky as Hydro Pump OHKOs, though you 2HKO it with Thunderbolt. Outspeed and OHKO Rhydon with Surf (FYI, even a crit EQ doesn’t OHKO Rhydon).
Arcanine outspeeds but you knock it to red with Earthquake. Venusaur seems to be 3HKOed by Blizzard, judging by the damage a critical hit did.
Rhydon is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, and Arcanine does nothing and is 2HKOed by Surf.
Gyarados is a loss for Blastoise generally - it roughly 2HKOs with Hyper Beam and you…6HKO it with Strength or Ice Beam, though you can beat it if you get a lucky freeze, as Blue doesn’t switch.
3HKOs Venusaur with Ice Beam, but both Razor Leaf and SolarBeam OHKO Blastoise, so you probably aren’t killing Venusaur.
Kadabra (51): Good for Pidgeot, you outspeed and Psychic 2HKOS. You can paralyze Alakazam and hopefully muscle past it with Special drops. I did it I think three times, but it’s not ideal as he’s clearly more powerful; I had one attempts where I used 8 Psychics and only one got a Special drop. Psychic does 2/3 to Rhydon 2HKOing it while it does nothing.
Psychic 3HKOs Gyarados who may be risky because of Hyper Beam in the background. Arcanine is 3HKOed by Psychic but watch out for Take Down. Excellent for Venusaur, you easily outspeed and do 2/3 with Psychic while Blue can’t really kill you at all.
Dodrio (51): Drill Peck 3HKOs Pidgeot who does minimal damage. Hyper Beam does 2/3’s to Pidgeot, so Drill Peck + Hyper Beam kills it.
Alakazam outspeeds you, but you do live Psychic. Drill Peck 3HKOs if it goes for Reflect. Anyway, Hyper Beam OHKOs if no Reflect is up. Avoid Rhydon.
Drill Peck seems to 3HKO Gyarados, but Drill Peck + Hyper Beam does while Hydro Pump looks like a range to OHKO you. Kinda eh as Drill Peck + Hyper Beam doesn’t seem to 2HKO Gyarados unless you land one critical hit.
Drill Peck + Hyper Beam 2HKOs Arcanine. Drill Peck does 2/3 of Venusaur’s HP and it’s not killing you.
Nidoking (52): Thunderbolt misses the 2HKO on Pidgeot, though Blizzard does 2/3 (watch out for Mirror Move, Blizzard does 2/3 your HP). Anyway, Thunderbolt, then Blizzard should beat Pidgeot. Sky Attack 2HKOs.
Don’t bother with Alakazam; Psychic OHKOs and it easily seems to go for it. Gyarados is shaky as Hydro Pump OHKOs, though you 2HKO it with Thunderbolt. Outspeed and OHKO Rhydon with Surf (FYI, even a crit EQ doesn’t OHKO Rhydon).
Arcanine outspeeds but you knock it to red with Earthquake. Venusaur seems to be 3HKOed by Blizzard, judging by the damage a critical hit did.
Broken Psychic is broken. While it may have some small struggles (switch training until Bill, having some trouble with Misty/Sabrina/Lance, possibly needing a PP restoration in the Elite Four) this Pokemon is just a beast. Even with those downsides, it's constantly having Poison types to prey on in the mook base, most notably S.S. Anne and a lot of midgame. It gets virtually every move it needs leveling up, too. I could've maybe used Sesmic Toss against fellow Zam, but it doesn't NEED it (only needs Thunder Wave).
I see no reason why Abra in general shouldn't just be treated as one Pokemon in S. I'll probably default to using this thing or Nidoking if I need some low-tier squads carried.
Yeah, S tier. While Nidoran Male may not be on the level of "wow you have to try to not win with this thing" like Abra, it is still fantastic. Let's review:
-Horn Attack is one of the best options for earlygame (resisting Poison Sting is a nice bonus).
-Thrash early makes it steamroll the mook base, delivering OHKOs to most targets.
-Just as Thrash starts falling off (read: when Trainers midgame use bulky mons that can take at least one Thrash, making confusion annoying) you get Surf and Earthquake, immediately pulling up the punch.
-Sweeps most gyms from Lt. Surge onward, bar Erika.
-Pretty great at the League overall (most notably sweeping Agatha and Bruno, the former of which is generally difficult to sweep), being solid everywhere but Lorelei and some parts of the Champion.
-It does want some TMs, especially Thunderbolt, but they aren't necessarily required as the things you want Thunderbolt for (Gyarados, Lorelei) kinda threaten you anyway. Ice Beam/Blizzard can help as Lance can derp, but even THEN, it's still only him and Erika mostly. It's very unlikely Nidoking wouldn't get at least one of Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Blizzard.
Water Gun / (presumably) BubbleBeam are borderline superfluous as that's only really relevant at Rock Tunnel and you will be using Horn Attack / Thrash most of the time. You only want Surf as your Water move and Nidoking could likely be just fine without Water Gun / BubbleBeam until then.
-As for the Earthquake TM...I honestly don't consider that too much of an issue considering if you need another Ground move on your team, you can simply give something else Dig (which Nidoking/Queen bizarrely don't learn).
-Any minor failings it may have would be petty to penalize this thing for, and just can't offset its sheer dominance. It's to the point where you can sweep some scrubs with non-STAB Surf, for crying out loud.
Leaning toward B tier on Doduo/Dodrio, though if some people want to argue A, I'll hear them out. Dodrio is a good Pokemon, but as you get further in the game, it has a nasty tendency to rely on Hyper Beam to finish some things off after a Drill Peck, which definitely becomes apparent at the Pokemon League, some of which (Lorelei, Lance) can really damage it back if it fails to KO. Another problem with it is that if it doesn't land a critical hit (slim, but possible) it can often struggle to OHKO some of the mook base with regular STAB moves, as it seldom hits super effectively.
Combine these problems with some grinding needed to get off the ground (granted, Sandshrew, a fellow A tier, also needed this) and I'm not quite sold of its placement in A. If it was a little more consistent killing mooks, I think I'd be for A, but I'm not so sure. It also will likely need a PP item for Hyper Beam in the Elite Four.It's definitely the best Flying type in the game (I'd wager it's more useful than Farfetch'd at the League) but whether it's an A tier remains to be seen. Again, Doduo / Dodrio likely need some more tests to determine its placing.
I'm putting Squirtle in its own spoiler folder as my summary is substantially longer for it. TLDR: It's lack of power and only good matchups keep it in A tier instead of S.
I'm going to be comparing this to some of the S tiers in my assessment. I generally compare S tiers more than most as they really need to be a clear stage above most other things and a power level
Positives:
-By far the best starter for Brock, soloing at an early level (despite all starters beating him).
-Pretty good for Misty, though 6HKOing Starmie with Mega Punch is really a drag.
-Despite the negative Lt. Surge matchup, you can still take out everything but Raichu as Voltorb and Pikachu can't threaten you.
-Fairly self-sufficient movewise, only really needing BubbleBeam and Mega Punch, which are fairly uncontested.
-Fantastic for all Giiovanni battles, Blaine and Bruno. Pretty good for Lance too, though a sweep may be shaky due to Hyper Beam spam.
Negatives;
-Has some power issues pre-BubbleBeam, as Mega Punch is generally better than Water Gun to achieve 2HKOs. Even with BubbleBeam, unlike Kadabra's Confusion and Nidoking's Thrash, Wartortle is likely to be barely 2HKOing most things compared to the other two who generally knock their targets to red if not outright OHKO them.
-Water is a pretty popular type on the mook base, and Squirtle generally doesn't like them and the occasional Grass types. Right after you get BubbleBeam on S.S. Anne, you are forced right back into missing Mega Punch again for a bit, and you also have some Swimmers/Fisherman near Cinnabar that will force you to spam non-STAB Strength. This sort of mediocrity with the mooks isn't a one-time thing - it also doesn't like the Gastly line in Pokemon Tower / Agatha with their high Special and the Abra line (most notably Alakazam) can be annoying to kill reliably because of Reflect and Recover.
Midgame is fairly better mook wise as you can spam Surf after you get it, but then Blastoise has some issues with the Psychic types in the Fuschia and Saffron Gyms. Granted, Psychic is broken and causes issues for almost everything. Against almost everything else? Yeah it generally 2HKOs with Surf, which is fine, but it almost never OHKOs - for example, even something like a Viridian Gym mook with Machoke lived Surf in red IIRC.
-I could overlook the meh mook base if Blastoise was excellent in bosses. While Blastoise turns in a pretty good showing, I don't think it's S. As stated, it takes forever to kill Misty's Starmie (granted, even a slow but good matchup is kinda above average there). It's okay for Surge, dealing with the small stuff, but not the ace mon (turning in a similar performance for Sabrina, mostly due to her weak moves).
Wartortle outright folds to Erika more or less, even with Ice Beam (she deals too much damage). Blastoise sweeps Koga but Smokescreen can cause issues and it doesn't even OHKO his Koffing with Surf, again accentuating the lack of power. It sweeps Blaine and all of Giovanni's battles with virtually no issues...
...but then it runs into some issues at the League with both Agatha (I'm gonna assume you don't give this thing Dig, as that's the most contested physical TM in the game and all uses of it for Wartortle are too niche to really justify the cost in my opinion) and especially Lorelei. It sweeps Bruno, but so does literally anything else just about, and its performance against Lance isn't as watertight as the Ice Beam access may suggest due to level disparity and Hyper Beam spam wearing it down.
Champion Blue also leans slightly average for Blastoise, as Venusaur, Alakazam and (usually) Gyarados can easily overpower it, though it beats Pidgeot, Arcanine and Venusaur fine.
Overall assessment:
Squirtle is a great starter, but I don't feel like it's on the level of Abra and Nidoran Male (I still need to test Nidoran Female) and is a good fit for A tier. It's a clear step behind both in the mook base and Squirtle generally doesn't sweep as many bosses as quickly as the other two do (despite Nidoking sharing meh matchups for Misty and Erika, it makes up for this by sweeping the second half of Gyms pretty reliably). The Squirtle line 2HKOing things in general is fine, but a S tier generally needs to be scoring a lot more OHKOs, which the line fails to do most of the time unless it's hitting super effectively with BubbleBeam/Surf. While Squirtle's TM dependency is better than Nidoking's but behind Abra, which is pretty good, it still fails to make up for the lack of power Squirtle generally has throughout its life.
Whew, that was pretty long. It's worth noting my work schedule IRL has picked up substantially, so I won't have as much time to test as usual, but it also depends on how I feel (I'll be most busy on Thursdays/Fridays + Mondays, so I may have a lull in progress those days). Next run, I'm probably going to be testing Charmander, Niodran Female, Clefairy, and either Tentacool / Omanyte / Cloyster perhaps.
Also, do you guys read my tests? Are they helpful for supporting my arguments or are they TOO long-winded and specific? I wouldn't mind some feedback, and I can definitely understand if people think they are too long.
Keep up the great work everyone!
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Final Japanese Blue writeups:
Venusaur: I'm late to the change, but I'm going to have to go with a B tier here. There were points where I thought this thing may have been A instead, such as the Misty fight and the SS Anne-Rock Tunnel performance, but overall the run is too inconsistent. Its run on maps is rather poor until either when Razor Leaf comes, or when the player is willing to give it Body Slam. The combination of Body Slam and Swords Dance can make a difference on potentially troublesome fights, but there are also times where it just isn't enough; like with Sabrina, Lance, and the Champion battle. Had Sleep Powder come any earlier, then I'm certain that the Bulbasaur line would indeed be an A-tier Pokemon overall. Sadly, considering its inconsistencies, it's highly unlikely that the player will have Sleep Powder by the Elite Four. Unless of course, your team mainly consisted of late-game mons like the Articuno and Zapdos. I don't want to undersell this too much, as it's worthy of recognition for its ability to beat Misty without the need of the trip to Bill's House. It just doesn't that great enough of a run to be deemed anything higher than the "above average" tier.
Sandslash: I don't think I see some of the S hype going around. I think it's a very comfortable A though. It has enough bulk to take physical hits when it can't OHKO, and a combination of STAB and insta-crit Slash allows maps to go extremely smoothly. Being able to learn Slash at Level 17 means that it's set even without a Ground-type move of choice in most circumstances. Obviously it will want the Dig TM so as to give some staying power in the Pokemon Tower. Thankfully, this isn't too big of a deal-breaker as anyone else wanting a Ground-type move can just wait for Earthquake. Its performance on major fights has problems though. The middling speed means that those who use special attackers can easily wear it down. This will become particularly noticeable on the Elite Four, where one member focuses on Water-type moves, another likes spamming Confuse Ray, and two of them have strong Water-types in Gyarados and Blastoise. It can take care of a good chunk of the mid-game gyms, even though this still could've been a more consistent record. I think that on the whole, this is a great Pokemon and it's worth playing the Blue version(s) to use. If it wasn't limited to the stats of a typical physical tank, then I think that it would've been even better though.
Poliwrath: For the purpose of Japanese Blue, I believe that it's in the B tier. The outsider bonus really helps it here, as does Hypnosis. However, the Poliwag phase is iffy for the most part, and there are some fights where the middling stats can't save the day even if with Hypnosis; Erika comes to mind here. The Fighting-type can also cause problems for it in the mid-game. Mainly because there's an influx of Psychic-types being used at these points. It really shines in the late-game though. Surf is a thing, there's a choice of Ice- and Ground-type moves, and the boosted experience will mean that it will be at a level where it can outspeed opponents and shut them down with Hypnosis. In one sense, it's a Blastoise+ by the Elite Four. Although its run is a tad too rocky during the Poliwag and Poliwhirl stages, even with boosted experience, to earn a placement in the A tier.
Gengar: Even with the trade you can get in this version of the game, I still think that it's still in the A tier. If you combine boosted experience with the signature in-game setup of Thunderbolt, Hypnosis, Mega Drain and Psychic, then it may well be better than Alakazam and Nidoking by the end. However, the hefty amount of TM support, as well as the Machop babying period required for the trade prevent this from being an instant "win button". It's more or less brought down to the same quality as it is if one were to catch in the Pokemon Tower. Either way, I don't have any arguments with its current placement. It has the potential to steamroll a majority of the game, but there's some needed by the player in order for this to be possible.
Venusaur: Very comfortable sweep. The Nidos aren't OHKO'd, by they can't do much to it.
Sandslash: While it might not OHKO everything, it can still survive any hits and outdamage his team with any given STAB.
Poliwrath: With Surf, this will be an incredibly easy sweep.
Gengar: Manageable with the right TMs. Chiefly, Psychic and Mega Drain. It should have the EVs to outspeed the Dugtrio by this point.
Sandslash: While it might not OHKO everything, it can still survive any hits and outdamage his team with any given STAB.
Poliwrath: With Surf, this will be an incredibly easy sweep.
Gengar: Manageable with the right TMs. Chiefly, Psychic and Mega Drain. It should have the EVs to outspeed the Dugtrio by this point.
Venusaur: If you fight everything up to Exeggcute, then perform a Swords Dance sweep, then this will be a good matchup.
Sandslash: It won't be able to beat the Exeggcute, where it can use Stun Spore, then use Solarbeam to finish it off. If you picked Squirtle, then it won't be able to beat Gyarados.
Poliwrath: Even with Hypnosis luck, the Alakazam can make extremely short work of it with the right STAB.
Gengar: Again, Hypnosis luck and a complete set of TMs will allow this match to go smoothly; even when it's against the Alakazam.
Sandslash: It won't be able to beat the Exeggcute, where it can use Stun Spore, then use Solarbeam to finish it off. If you picked Squirtle, then it won't be able to beat Gyarados.
Poliwrath: Even with Hypnosis luck, the Alakazam can make extremely short work of it with the right STAB.
Gengar: Again, Hypnosis luck and a complete set of TMs will allow this match to go smoothly; even when it's against the Alakazam.
Venusaur: Will be able to survive a Blizzard from Lapras and fight back with Razor Leaf. Everything else is simple enough to take care of.
Sandslash: Even the Dewgong can just survive attacks and finish it off with two Aurora Beams.
Poliwrath: Most of the team can wall it if it doesn't reserve a slot for Submission. If given Hypnosis though, it can brute force her team without it.
Gengar: If it has Thunderbolt, then this will be a comfortable fight. Especially if you use Hypnosis for those who could potentially be troublesome.
Sandslash: Even the Dewgong can just survive attacks and finish it off with two Aurora Beams.
Poliwrath: Most of the team can wall it if it doesn't reserve a slot for Submission. If given Hypnosis though, it can brute force her team without it.
Gengar: If it has Thunderbolt, then this will be a comfortable fight. Especially if you use Hypnosis for those who could potentially be troublesome.
Venusaur: It won't have any trouble against any of the team members.
Sandslash: It can sweep everything up to the Machamp which can outdamage it with Submission.
Poliwrath: Another fight where Surf can allow the fight to go smoothly. Teaching it Psychic will make the fight even easier.
Gengar: Highly possible even without the Psychic TM.
Sandslash: It can sweep everything up to the Machamp which can outdamage it with Submission.
Poliwrath: Another fight where Surf can allow the fight to go smoothly. Teaching it Psychic will make the fight even easier.
Gengar: Highly possible even without the Psychic TM.
Venusaur: Can't do anything to her Ghosts. Leech Seed will be futile considering how often she likes to withdraw her Pokemon.
Sandslash: The only team member which it's consistent against is Arbok. Everything else can outspeed and confuse it.
Poliwrath: With some Hypnosis luck and either Earthquake or Psychic, a sweep will be possible.
Gengar: If it has Psychic, then everything can be taken down with little trouble.
Sandslash: The only team member which it's consistent against is Arbok. Everything else can outspeed and confuse it.
Poliwrath: With some Hypnosis luck and either Earthquake or Psychic, a sweep will be possible.
Gengar: If it has Psychic, then everything can be taken down with little trouble.
Venusaur: It's mainly good on the dragons. Gyarados can use Leer + Hyper Beam to bring it down.
Sandslash: Since his first Pokemon is a Gyarados, it doesn't have much of a chance. Even asides Gyarados, everything else can eventually wear it down with Dragon Rage and Hyper Beam.
Poliwrath: Gyarados can wall it, but Hypnosis allows for some brute force potential. It may need PP restoring items to get past everything else.
Gengar: If you have Thunderbolt or Thunder, Gyarados isn't much of an issue. On everything else, Lance's AI just gives up on it.
Sandslash: Since his first Pokemon is a Gyarados, it doesn't have much of a chance. Even asides Gyarados, everything else can eventually wear it down with Dragon Rage and Hyper Beam.
Poliwrath: Gyarados can wall it, but Hypnosis allows for some brute force potential. It may need PP restoring items to get past everything else.
Gengar: If you have Thunderbolt or Thunder, Gyarados isn't much of an issue. On everything else, Lance's AI just gives up on it.
Venusaur: It can beat half of his team with Swords Dance and Body Slam. Pidgeot, Alakazam, and Charizard can all wear it down with their stronger STAB.
Sandslash: Maybe able to beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, and his Fire-type of choice, but the rest and take it down without trouble.
Poliwrath: Could do a sweep, but it will need PP restoring after Gyarados.
Gengar: If you have a complete TM set and Hypnosis, then this fight should be simple enough. Although at this point, it may need to be careful which moves it uses so as to have enough PP for the starter.
Sandslash: Maybe able to beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, and his Fire-type of choice, but the rest and take it down without trouble.
Poliwrath: Could do a sweep, but it will need PP restoring after Gyarados.
Gengar: If you have a complete TM set and Hypnosis, then this fight should be simple enough. Although at this point, it may need to be careful which moves it uses so as to have enough PP for the starter.
Venusaur: I'm late to the change, but I'm going to have to go with a B tier here. There were points where I thought this thing may have been A instead, such as the Misty fight and the SS Anne-Rock Tunnel performance, but overall the run is too inconsistent. Its run on maps is rather poor until either when Razor Leaf comes, or when the player is willing to give it Body Slam. The combination of Body Slam and Swords Dance can make a difference on potentially troublesome fights, but there are also times where it just isn't enough; like with Sabrina, Lance, and the Champion battle. Had Sleep Powder come any earlier, then I'm certain that the Bulbasaur line would indeed be an A-tier Pokemon overall. Sadly, considering its inconsistencies, it's highly unlikely that the player will have Sleep Powder by the Elite Four. Unless of course, your team mainly consisted of late-game mons like the Articuno and Zapdos. I don't want to undersell this too much, as it's worthy of recognition for its ability to beat Misty without the need of the trip to Bill's House. It just doesn't that great enough of a run to be deemed anything higher than the "above average" tier.
Sandslash: I don't think I see some of the S hype going around. I think it's a very comfortable A though. It has enough bulk to take physical hits when it can't OHKO, and a combination of STAB and insta-crit Slash allows maps to go extremely smoothly. Being able to learn Slash at Level 17 means that it's set even without a Ground-type move of choice in most circumstances. Obviously it will want the Dig TM so as to give some staying power in the Pokemon Tower. Thankfully, this isn't too big of a deal-breaker as anyone else wanting a Ground-type move can just wait for Earthquake. Its performance on major fights has problems though. The middling speed means that those who use special attackers can easily wear it down. This will become particularly noticeable on the Elite Four, where one member focuses on Water-type moves, another likes spamming Confuse Ray, and two of them have strong Water-types in Gyarados and Blastoise. It can take care of a good chunk of the mid-game gyms, even though this still could've been a more consistent record. I think that on the whole, this is a great Pokemon and it's worth playing the Blue version(s) to use. If it wasn't limited to the stats of a typical physical tank, then I think that it would've been even better though.
Poliwrath: For the purpose of Japanese Blue, I believe that it's in the B tier. The outsider bonus really helps it here, as does Hypnosis. However, the Poliwag phase is iffy for the most part, and there are some fights where the middling stats can't save the day even if with Hypnosis; Erika comes to mind here. The Fighting-type can also cause problems for it in the mid-game. Mainly because there's an influx of Psychic-types being used at these points. It really shines in the late-game though. Surf is a thing, there's a choice of Ice- and Ground-type moves, and the boosted experience will mean that it will be at a level where it can outspeed opponents and shut them down with Hypnosis. In one sense, it's a Blastoise+ by the Elite Four. Although its run is a tad too rocky during the Poliwag and Poliwhirl stages, even with boosted experience, to earn a placement in the A tier.
Gengar: Even with the trade you can get in this version of the game, I still think that it's still in the A tier. If you combine boosted experience with the signature in-game setup of Thunderbolt, Hypnosis, Mega Drain and Psychic, then it may well be better than Alakazam and Nidoking by the end. However, the hefty amount of TM support, as well as the Machop babying period required for the trade prevent this from being an instant "win button". It's more or less brought down to the same quality as it is if one were to catch in the Pokemon Tower. Either way, I don't have any arguments with its current placement. It has the potential to steamroll a majority of the game, but there's some needed by the player in order for this to be possible.
I've continued to be busy lately but I'll try to get to my run this week.
It's interesting that you found Dodrio to be a little lacking in power in mid-game. 110 attack with easily learned Normal/Flying STAB is a high bar--I would guess that only Ground/Psychic-types with their SE moves and, like, Jolteon/Magnemite with Thunderbolt can hit most of Celadon through Koga/Sabrina any harder? That said, Dodrio is pretty bad against the Elite Four so B makes sense to me.
I'm also curious about Poliwag, which instinctively feels like an A-tier pick to me. I'd love to run it again, maybe after my next run. Poliwag is a kind of awkward stage but we generally like our mid-game Waters (Magikarp, Vaporeon--and in Magikarp's case you even have an analogous baby period) and Poliwrath does have that sexy movepool. But maybe I'm overestimating it.
It's interesting that you found Dodrio to be a little lacking in power in mid-game. 110 attack with easily learned Normal/Flying STAB is a high bar--I would guess that only Ground/Psychic-types with their SE moves and, like, Jolteon/Magnemite with Thunderbolt can hit most of Celadon through Koga/Sabrina any harder? That said, Dodrio is pretty bad against the Elite Four so B makes sense to me.
I'm also curious about Poliwag, which instinctively feels like an A-tier pick to me. I'd love to run it again, maybe after my next run. Poliwag is a kind of awkward stage but we generally like our mid-game Waters (Magikarp, Vaporeon--and in Magikarp's case you even have an analogous baby period) and Poliwrath does have that sexy movepool. But maybe I'm overestimating it.
Well, I think I noticed it about Silph Co. - Dodrio can easily take the scrubs in Rocket Hideout. Celadon Gym also has some issues for Doduo because status means it gets slowed down/requires some heals.
Once it evolves, it gets stronger and doesn’t have to rely on Fly / Tri Attack’s 10 PP - that is where the ball starts rolling. I think it’s mostly the fact the game coincidentally uses a lot of high-Defense Poisons and evolved Pokémon like Hypno and other stuff around the time you evolve is why I found it a little underwhelming. The critical hit rate is nice though. But yeah-might need someone else to test it too.
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