Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow In-Game Tiers - Reboot

Gonna pop in here. We aren't speedrunning if this is what you are implying. The list has already banned the most commonly used Item Combo which is X Accuracy and an OHKO move. As for the fangame, I fail to see any relevance here with that. Additionally, we should not be comparing mons to one another and using that as a condition to tier. The Pokemon should be tested on its own merits. You can compare a mon to make a point or argument, but never when it comes to actually placing them.
In which case I'll just tldr my point.

Venusaur is by far the worst starter. It requires a TM to even be passable and has the worst boss battle matchups. It's worse than anything else in A tier and is arguably more on par with things in B tier.

Victreebel has very similar stats, a better movepool (despite some awkwardness from level 30-38), is captured at a decent level, and arrives at a time in the game where grass / poison types are decent (Cerulean to Celadon). B tier.

Both Pokemon are definitely better compared to the others in B tier rather than A and C.
 
I think you're underselling this, at the very least in the context of Venusaur vs Victreebel, because being able to sleep an opponent and use Swords Dance is allowing a mon to clear match-ups it wouldn't otherwise be able to, for example Sabrina, Rival, or Blaine. And while other mons are better in these match-ups (you can use a Water-type against Blaine and call it a day, or not use a Poison-type against Psychic-type mons), it's still something that Victreebel can do that Venusaur can't, and it allows you to not need a dedicated team slot for that weakness.
I don't think that a strategy with a 25% failure rate qualifies as efficient use of a Pokemon. I would rather try to make use of Venusaur's higher Speed (accounting for badge boost + stat EXP) to try to outpace Alakazam in the Sabrina/Rival fights than do...whatever Victreebel is supposed to do to beat Alakazam. Their HP/Special is the same so if Victreebel can tank a hit from Alakazam, so can Venusaur. Victreebel might be able to pull off Growth strategies, but that would require Potion support and isn't very efficient.

I neglected to include the relevant portion of the post in the quote, but I'm of the opinion that Bulbasaur should grind to 13 before Brock for Vine Whip. Aside from how much easier the fight becomes with it, it gives Bulbasaur more of a power advantage past Brock. It'll be 14 after Brock.

Gonna pop in here. We aren't speedrunning if this is what you are implying. The list has already banned the most commonly used Item Combo which is X Accuracy and an OHKO move. As for the fangame, I fail to see any relevance here with that. Additionally, we should not be comparing mons to one another and using that as a condition to tier. The Pokemon should be tested on its own merits. You can compare a mon to make a point or argument, but never when it comes to actually placing them.
The idea of "efficiency" presented in the various tier topics is fairly loose and not well defined, due to everyone having their own standard and idea of efficiency. Speed is a relevant part of it, but I am not suggesting that speedrunning the game should be the metric to use for efficiency. The metric I've decided for my personal use (total game battle turn count) is also fairly useless for tiering, as it's more focused on building an efficient team and route than determining how effective an individual Pokemon is, but I believe it gives a better idea of efficiency than testing a bunch of random Pokemon without consideration for their interactions or how to actually efficiently use them. For example, TM cost. The measure used for this tends to be "how many Pokemon can make use of this TM?", rather than the more accurate "which Pokemon make the best use of this TM?". Taking Parasect for example, if you're giving it TMs that other Pokemon can use better than it, like Body Slam or Swords Dance, there's no loss if Parasect is the best user of those TMs on the team. But if it's not, then in using Parasect more "efficiently", you are using the actually more efficient users of these TMs less efficiently, and the overall efficiency of the party is a net loss. Whether or not that is the case can be determined by identifying which Pokemon partner best with Parasect. A Pokemon's team compatibility is a vital part of determining its actual efficiency. What is the value of having something like say Psychic in a level-up pool? That value depends on how efficient it is to have the natural Psychic user in addition to another Psychic user that gained it via TM. This is a much more useful and concrete definition than leaving it as some undefined variable like "natural Psychic frees up the TM for another user". Okay, but is it actually efficient to have another user? That question goes unanswered.

I have no intention of suggesting that my idea of efficiency is more valid than anyone else's, but I am offering this viewpoint as something to consider. As a player that was new to the idea of "efficient" play, I found the tier lists and most of the information presented in the tier list threads to be fairly useless, and that's why I figured out my own guidelines. The tier lists are not good indicators of what areas of the game the Pokemon is efficient for or what Pokemon are efficient to pair with it, which is a vital part of building an efficient team.

Venusaur is by far the worst starter. It requires a TM to even be passable
So does Clefable, this isn't an argument. Without TMs, Charmander's best move is Ember until level 33 Slash on Charmeleon. And Charmeleon's Special is 65 compared to Ivysaur's 80, so on a neutral target it's actually the weakest starter without TMs.
No argument about Bulbasaur being the worst starter, just the comparisons with Bellsprout. Ivysaur's performance with Body Slam is clearly superior to Bellsprout's in the Cerulean-Celadon part of the game, particularly for Rival #4 and Surge. If you do Rocket Hideout first, Ivysaur's probably a Venusaur for Erika, way better than the Weepinbell that still has to hold off on evolving if it wants Razor Leaf. Without Body Slam, they're probably the same tier, but otherwise nah.
 
Not necessarily related to the current discussion, but regarding the Gyarados thing a couple of pages ago, I tried again evolving it before Misty, this time by allowing it to clear battles by itself and after leaving some trainers in Route 3 for it. After having done the calculations, even if you don't leave trainers in Route 3, there's still around 700 exp surplus if Magikarp decides to battle by itself from Lv15 onwards, and it's higher if you train it in Route 3, which means that there's more than enough experience to let it evolve. With that said, I don't think Magikarp can evolve before Misty without some grinding at least, even if you leave some trainers in Route 3. There are some enemies that Magikarp can't simply defeat, like Geodude, Onix, Machop (because of Karate Chop being a 2HKO), Mankey (Karate Chop), Slowpoke (Confusion 2HKOs), Drowzee (Confusion), and Oddish (Absorb recovers more than Magikarp can damage).

but...

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I managed to evolve it before Misty with the two Rare Candies. With the enemies in Route 3, Magikarp can reach Lv18 even if it is only trained by switching just before reaching Bill's house, without any random encounters. With this in mind, I think that the best course of action, if you're using Magikarp, is to train it exclusively through switching and feed it the two Rare Candies once it reaches Lv18, and it's perhaps the only Pokémon I know that gets a benefit as big as this (Slow exp group + the drastic difference between Magikarp and Gyarados), and it's also the quickest way to use Magikarp, too. If used this way, Gyarados in A doesn't seem that implausible anymore to me (especially if Squirtle gets raised to S). It also makes the match-up against Misty trivial, and only suffers against Surge's Raichu.

Any thoughts? Do you think this helps as a tip to use Magikarp and affects its tiering?
 
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In which case I'll just tldr my point.

Venusaur is by far the worst starter. It requires a TM to even be passable and has the worst boss battle matchups. It's worse than anything else in A tier and is arguably more on par with things in B tier.

Victreebel has very similar stats, a better movepool (despite some awkwardness from level 30-38), is captured at a decent level, and arrives at a time in the game where grass / poison types are decent (Cerulean to Celadon). B tier.
Regarding Venu vs. Vic movepool; they don't differ much at all.
The biggest difference is that Ivysaur gets Body Slam (only Victreebel can learn it, and after a point where it gets Double-Edge anyway),
while Bellsprout gets Sleep Powder (Venusaur only learns it at lv. 55, which for this kind of run is post-game).
The other differences are minor IMO (Leech Seed, Wrap, Stun Spore).
Both need somewhat high-demand TMs for their best Normal moves (Double-Edge is the strongest Norrmal move without major drawback); only Venusaur can get its best move earlier.
Sleep Powder gives Victreebel an edge lategame (after lv. 38), but Ivysaur/Venusaur has an overall better performance than Weepinbell/Victreebel.

With all that said, I do think that Bellsprout's performance is closer to Bulbasaur's (especially Yellow Bulbasaur who doesn't have the early-game availability advantage) than it is to Oddish's; mostly because the latter cannot use Swords Dance well and has to rely on the inferior Petal Dance/Mega Drain for STAB. I could see an argument for a low B tier especially if Oddish is kept in C.
Definitely one of the most limbo 'mons in the current list.
 
Just reading over these posts, I think we should discuss about other Pokémon. We’ve stagnated on Bulb v. Bell and we are getting the same talks about movepool and full power potential. It’s just looping at this point. That’s my take on this.
 
I have made the decision not to get too actively involved with this project this go around, but since I saw it mentioned, I just wanted to chime in and say that X-Accuracy and Fissure did NOT have any notable weight in Squirtle's initial placement in Top/S-tier. It was judged to be good enough without OHKO spam - the analysis we wrote for it back then doesn't even mention Fissure.
Ah, ok. I incorrectly assumed that might have been what pushed it from really high A to S/Top, solidifying its position there. My bad. Thanks a lot for clarifying!

For what it's worth I would not oppose Squirtle in S (or Diglett, but I already gave my thoughts on that).

I saw someone mentioning that Bulbasaur is the most efficient against Brock because it learns Leech Seed at level 7, so it requires "less grinding" and lets you train another party member at that point of the game. I don't think that's true at all. Squirtle can quickly and safely win the fight at level 8 with Bubble. Bulbasar, even at level 12 (it will learn Vine Whip after beating the Geodude and getting to level 13), is slower at beating Brock. I would say that Squirtle gives the most leeway at that point of the game in terms of being able to train another party member. If anyone doesn't believe it than feel free to test it yourself.
 
I saw someone mentioning that Bulbasaur is the most efficient against Brock because it learns Leech Seed at level 7, so it requires "less grinding" and lets you train another party member at that point of the game. I don't think that's true at all. Squirtle can quickly and safely win the fight at level 8 with Bubble. Bulbasar, even at level 12 (it will learn Vine Whip after beating the Geodude and getting to level 13), is slower at beating Brock. I would say that Squirtle gives the most leeway at that point of the game in terms of being able to train another party member. If anyone doesn't believe it than feel free to test it yourself.
Hi, i'm the one who commented on that

My point isn't that Bulbasaur is the most efficient choice against Brock. The best pick is obviously Squirtle because it 1-2HKOs with Bubble at Lv8. The point was that Bulbasaur requires the least amount of experience to beat Brock among any Pokémon at the start of the game, which is a small advantage. It'd mean that it only needs to defeat the Rival and the Lv9 Weedle near Pewter (both forced battles), and everything optional can be fed to another mon to have it higher leveled for Route 3.
 
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I apologize for not posting sooner - I've been reading over all these posts after the posting surge over the last few days. I think we will need come to a consensus on Bulbasaur as a whole fairly soon. I'm at Lance right now in my tests and I can safely assure no reasonably leveled team is going to have Sleep Powder for the final battles. I barely reached level 50 all around going in with 8 Rare Candies and fighting 90% of the trainers in the game (only skipping maybe a couple in Mansion and on sea routes I think). Bellsprout I can't speak for, sadly. I think we might need some focus on the other starters or more low-key options for a while.

While I didn't use Swords Dance for the midgame myself, I don't think I'm sold on the concept of Swords Dance Body Slam. Venusaur only has 82 Attack and doesn't even learn Earthquake until Generation 3, leaving Body Slam and Hyper Beam as its only physical options, and a Hyper Beam TM is not exactly inexpensive either. And if you go Reflect Swords Dance and maybe Hyper Beam...I don't know, I personally think that's too much investment when it already is virtually requiring Body Slam.

Again, I'm leaning toward B. The early game is great, but numerous little issues simply put it down from being up there with the other A tiers.
 
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Venusaur couldn't even learn EQ in gen 2. Gen 3 was when it got it.

Nitpicking aside, I'm leaning on B as well. For one thing, it just doesn't have the muscle against a lot of the Poison-types that you'll be running into for most of the game.
 
Venusaur couldn't even learn EQ in gen 2. Gen 3 was when it got it.

Nitpicking aside, I'm leaning on B as well. For one thing, it just doesn't have the muscle against a lot of the Poison-types that you'll be running into for most of the game.
You are correct, my mistake. Edited the original post to correct this.

And yes, there are a LOT of Poison types in-game. And when it’s not Poison types, it’s one of Venusaur’s MANY other weaknesses.
 
The Zubat in Mt. Moon particularly painful due to Bulbasaur's 4x Bug weakness here.
Yeah, when Bulbasaur/Ivysaur get screwed over by Zubat of all things, which is cannon fodder to almost literally anything else, that's a huge red flag and a huge part of why I said you will have to backtrack or Potion constantly throughout Mt. Moon. Throw in some Bug Catchers and a handful of Poisons and the area is thoroughly miserable even with a few Hikers for easy EXP, which serves as salt in the wound after a generally terrible Route 3 beforehand thanks to all the Flying, Bug and Poison types there. Yes, Gust is a Normal-type in Gen 1, but your STAB is still resisted.

Also sidenote: Wow Pidgey's movepool is bad. I looked at Dodrio in comparison - yeah that thing can maybe be A/High like in the old list. Drill Peck at level 30 and Tri Attack at level 45 or immediately by giving the Celadon Rooftop girl Lemonade? Yes please. Definitely will test Doduo next run.
 
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You can just run away from the Zubat. There's only one mandatory one in Mt. Moon. You don't have to fight anything aside from the Rocket and the Super Nerd at the end, although the single Hiker is great and easy EXP that shouldn't be skipped, easy level up. Naturally, any Geodude that are encountered should be taken out too, they are the most efficient source of EXP for Bulbasaur/Ivysaur from wild encounters in Mt. Moon.
 
You can just run away from the Zubat. There's only one mandatory one in Mt. Moon. You don't have to fight anything aside from the Rocket and the Super Nerd at the end, although the single Hiker is great and easy EXP that shouldn't be skipped, easy level up. Naturally, any Geodude that are encountered should be taken out too, they are the most efficient source of EXP for Bulbasaur/Ivysaur from wild encounters in Mt. Moon.
but don't you think that's not a point in Bulbasaur's favor

if we don't consider defeating wild mons that are easily ko'd against efficiency, then bulbasaur has a clear limit on what it can take on, whereas if I use, let's say a Rattata with Hyper Fang, then it can easily feed from Zubats or anything, and then there's Squirtle, who has both Mega Punch and Water Gun access at this point to OHKO every wild encounter, and that one is an A tier right now
 
You can just run away from the Zubat. There's only one mandatory one in Mt. Moon. You don't have to fight anything aside from the Rocket and the Super Nerd at the end, although the single Hiker is great and easy EXP that shouldn't be skipped, easy level up. Naturally, any Geodude that are encountered should be taken out too, they are the most efficient source of EXP for Bulbasaur/Ivysaur from wild encounters in Mt. Moon.
I wasn't talking about wilds; I was taking about Trainers. And I fight almost every one I see, which led to me not using Ivysaur much until Misty post-Mt. Moon.

Mt. Moon has 7 Trainers on 1F in Red and Blue.. Ivysaur is okay on 1F: it can take the Super Nerd's Electrics, the Lass with the Clefairy, the Hiker, and a few of the Youngster's Pokemon barring the Zubat. However, it's going to have a significantly slower time against the two Bug Catchers.

On B2F however, it gets noticeably worse: one Rocket Grunt has Sandshrew and Rattata, but he also has a Zubat in the back. Addressing Zubat more in depth, yes, you can tank through them with Ivysaur using Tackle, but you're probably gonna lose about half your HP doing so, especially if you are switch training. Another Grunt has an Ekans and a Zubat that are utterly awful for Bulbasaur to take on. Granted, Ekans kinda sucks for everything at this point as the only option for super-effective damage is Butterfree's Confusion and Wrap is awful in Gen 1, but that doesn't change the fact Ivysaur will have its Vine Whip resisted here.

The Raticate in Red and Blue sucks for pretty much everything on the planet not named Geodude, so I can't fault Ivysaur too much here either. However, another Grunt has a Rattata and another Zubat (making this the third and final one in Mt. Moon if you are fighting every trainer), which I explained the matchup for above. Rounding out the cave is the Super Nerd who is required with Grimer, Voltorb, and Koffing. Again, Ivysaur will simply take more time to down the Poison types here, though it can take the Voltorb fine (it doesn't have Sonic Boom, thankfully). Grimer is going to be annoying with Pound, and good luck if it rolls the correct 1/4 RNG to disable Tackle (though you can switch out, admittedly). And Koffing has the high Defense to take Ivsaur's Tackle here.

My memory is foggy on Mt. Moon, but I'm fairly sure I went through it without much Repel (or any at all). Regardless, Geodude are not all that common at all on all floors, save for B2F in Red and Blue.
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In summary:
  1. Several Trainers are going to give Ivysaur issues by resisting Vine Whip, and you will have to spam Potions or backtrack to alleviate this. Adding to this, there's only one Hiker, one Lass, and one Super Nerd (on 1F) which is an relatively easy victory for Ivysaur.
  2. Zubat's encounter rate is cleanly 50% higher than Geodude's on 1F in all versions, Zubat is still roughly 30% (RBY) or 45% (Y) higher than Geodude's on B1F, and only on the last big floor of B2F in Red and Blue (where you are forced to walk a lot) is Geodude fairly common at 30%, which is still 19% lower from Zubat's 49% encounter rate. In Yellow, Zubat is 45% more common than Geodude on B2F.
  3. While you won't have Bulbasaur in Yellow (you get it in Cerulean if Pikachu is happy with you, which is easy with Potions at full HP) by this point, the above points still stand.
So whether you are fighting wilds or not, Ivysaur is going to struggle a fair amount in Mt. Moon.
 
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but don't you think that's not a point in Bulbasaur's favor
I agree with Bulbasaur being B, but it's not because of optional fights that are inefficient to participate in, it's because Grass is terrible.

I wasn't talking about wilds; I was taking about Trainers. And I fight almost every one I see, which led to me not using Ivysaur much until Misty post-Mt. Moon.
This is not efficient in terms of EXP or money acquisition. The only optional worth fighting is the Hiker. Ivysaur will struggle against the mandatory Rocket with Rattata and Zubat, that is true (if you have another Pokemon for switch training, have Ivysaur beat Rattata and switch out when Zubat comes in, almost anything else fares better against it at a decent level). But the Super Nerd is a fairly easy, albeit slow, win. Grimer disabling Tackle is unfavorable, but Vine Whip does roughly the same damage to it, and Leech Seed helps with both Grimer and Koffing. Leech Seed is only 1/16th HP in RBY instead of 1/8th in later games, but it's still good to use against durable resists like these.
 
I have been testing Squirtle, Magikarp in the last few days and just got Vaporeon.

Squirtle is obviously good but I wanted to see its performance with its TMs being contested, especially because Vaporeon would benefit more from them. I'm surprised at how little I need Mega Punch, because Bite is enough so far. Wartortle hasn't many issues reaching 2HKOs with it except against Rock-types, which are decimated by Water Gun anyways. The Mega Punch or the Bubble Beam TMs are still recommended (or both) to have a lot of power very early, but Wartortle has been good enough without them. I gave the Water Gun TM to Gyarados, who has also been performing really well and reaching 2HKOs everywhere with Bite, even OHKOs. I also gave the Thunderbolt TM to Gyarados. That I can have a mon with Tier 3 stats as early as Cerulean is huge. I can imagine it being even stronger had I given it the Body Slam TM.

The Bubble Beam, Body Slam and Ice Beam TMs have been given to Vaporeon. Just for laughs, I wanted to see what would happen if I just sent a freshly received Vaporeon in her Gym. I let it defeat everything by itself and to my surprise...
vapoleon.png


So, Vaporeon has a potential, albeit unreliable, positive match-up against Erika if given the Ice Beam TM, because Victreebel's Razor Leaf 2HKOs with critical thanks to Vaporeon's excellent special bulk, and it can potentially outspeed Victreebel to 2HKO it with Ice Beam. Training a little bit before entering the Gym should ensure Vaporeon outspeeds Victreebel.
 
I agree with Bulbasaur being B, but it's not because of optional fights that are inefficient to participate in, it's because Grass is terrible.



This is not efficient in terms of EXP or money acquisition. The only optional worth fighting is the Hiker. Ivysaur will struggle against the mandatory Rocket with Rattata and Zubat, that is true (if you have another Pokemon for switch training, have Ivysaur beat Rattata and switch out when Zubat comes in, almost anything else fares better against it at a decent level). But the Super Nerd is a fairly easy, albeit slow, win. Grimer disabling Tackle is unfavorable, but Vine Whip does roughly the same damage to it, and Leech Seed helps with both Grimer and Koffing. Leech Seed is only 1/16th HP in RBY instead of 1/8th in later games, but it's still good to use against durable resists like these.
You should never skip out on XP regardless if it is efficient or not. Your post also is saying to ONLY use Ivysaur on the sole Hiker and you are saying that is an efficient use of Ivysaur? You have even stated that it can solo that Nerd with the aid of Leech Seed and VW (Though VW is not recommended due to low PP). So I fail to see this as not efficient for Ivysaur. If you are talking about the speed in which you KO them, that is indeed not efficient, however XP is XP.

While yes, you state that if you have another Mon you can use Ivysaur to get rid of Rattata and then use the other Mon to take out the Zubat, most testers use their Starter until Cerulean as that's when more options open up. So most tend to stick with their Starter for the XP.
 
I agree, XP is XP, regardless of what the source is or when you acquire it. If you get more XP more quickly by grinding on wild Geodude than fighting trainers, then why shouldn't you do that? If you get more XP more quickly by rushing through early areas to grind on later areas, why shouldn't you do that? To say that one should abide by arbitrary rules like "never skip any XP source" regardless of the efficiency of doing so in a topic that is about tiering Pokemon based on efficiency seems completely contradictory to me.

Also, you say that "most people" use their starter until Cerulean because of more options, but by Mt. Moon three of the best Pokemon in the game have become available to catch (the two Nidoran and Clefairy), and the only new Pokemon after Mt. Moon, but before the third Rival encounter, is Ekans/Sandshrew. Do "most people" solo Rival 3 with their starter? Does it even matter what "most people" do? That line of argument has nothing to do with efficiency or tiering. It's not a good argument even if it did. It's true that the most efficient thing to do can also be what most people do, but it isn't a rule.
 
I agree, XP is XP, regardless of what the source is or when you acquire it. If you get more XP more quickly by grinding on wild Geodude than fighting trainers, then why shouldn't you do that? If you get more XP more quickly by rushing through early areas to grind on later areas, why shouldn't you do that? To say that one should abide by arbitrary rules like "never skip any XP source" regardless of the efficiency of doing so in a topic that is about tiering Pokemon based on efficiency seems completely contradictory to me.

Also, you say that "most people" use their starter until Cerulean because of more options, but by Mt. Moon three of the best Pokemon in the game have become available to catch (the two Nidoran and Clefairy), and the only new Pokemon after Mt. Moon, but before the third Rival encounter, is Ekans/Sandshrew. Do "most people" solo Rival 3 with their starter? Does it even matter what "most people" do? That line of argument has nothing to do with efficiency or tiering. It's not a good argument even if it did. It's true that the most efficient thing to do can also be what most people do, but it isn't a rule.
We don't fight Wilds unless the said Mon needs the XP (example again being something like a Magikarp). A starter does not fall under this.

When we test, we generally do not repeat a test of the same mon unless outlying factors occurred (A good example would be if you had a bad nature/IVs on a mixed attacker and your test was clearly askewed as a result, seeing as Natures do not exist, there is very little reason to use the same mon over and over again, expecting a different result.)

You missed Paras, Zubat, and Geodude. While I know you stated after Moon but before Rival, you disregarded an entire area.

At this point, I have to ask. Do you plan to test or just nitpick every little detail that doesn't suit you? I'm not trying to come off as rude, abrasive, or anything like that, but your past posts are just all about nitpicking on efficiency, tiering, etc.
 
We don't fight Wilds unless the said Mon needs the XP (example again being something like a Magikarp).
You should never skip out on XP regardless if it is efficient or not.
Disregarding the contradiction, if I understand what you're saying correctly, it's to be expected to generally avoid wild encounters unless you need the XP, yet never skip optional trainers even if you don't need the XP. If so, I do not see how this guideline promotes efficient play or tiering by any means. If the fight is optional and the XP isn't necessary, there is no reason to do it. A Pokemon that needs less XP from optional fights to put in work is more efficient than a Pokemon that needs more XP from optional fights. Enforcing optional fights disregards this, and enforcing specific optional fights over others regardless of efficiency further undermines the premise of efficient ranking that the tier lists are supposed to represent. Don't get me wrong, I think avoiding wilds when they're unnecessary goes without saying, but that line of thinking applies to unnecessary optional trainers too. It doesn't make sense to say one unnecessary fight should be avoided but another should never be avoided.

I don't think I said anything that warranted being told about the policy on retesting Pokemon? I don't see why that policy matters either way. And well, I didn't say I've been lurking here for over a year for no reason. There's no need to invest any time in telling me how things work here, I'm familiar with it.

Paras, Zubat, and Geodude are in Mt. Moon, they aren't after it. In the context of using a second Pokemon in the mandatory Rocket fight to aid Ivysaur in defeating the Zubat, they are available as options. I don't see what kind of point you're trying to make there.

If by "test", you mean under the rules presented in this topic, certainly not, the tests are totally inaccurate at actually determining efficiency. The lack of usefulness in the tier lists is precisely why I started out working on my own project to route an efficient (as I've defined it, anyway)) playthrough. Of course, the most efficient Pokemon are fairly well established (I.E. Clefairy) and such a route wouldn't discover anything new, being more focused on how high efficiency Pokemon interact with each other, and the best ways to use them. The information that would be provided from this is of limited use to the current tiering and testing process.

That being said, it sounds a little like a suggestion that I'm not welcome to provide criticism on the tiering process if I'm not going to test myself. I was under the impression that the tier lists exist to help tell players what the most efficient Pokemon to use are, and to assist in building a team using those options. As a player who, upon looking at the tier lists, found them to be too lacking in information to actually be of use in building a team, and decided to figure out a more useful methodology, what does that tell you about how well it meets that standard? I should think that my reaction is not the desired outcome of looking at a tier list. I do not mean or intend to make an argument of majority, but I cannot be the only person that found the tier lists to be of limited value, so please do not think of me as the sole person who would voice criticism toward the tiering process. Qualifying what I have to say as nitpicking, particularly given the context of this discussion where you've presented contradictory information and incorrect assessments of statements I've made, is dismissive and comes off as digging your heels against a contradictory perspective without considering what is being said.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
LonelyGaruga do you perhaps want to define what "efficiency" means in your books? I think one of your posts tried to explain it, but it didn't become clear to me what ultimately is efficient and what is inefficient in your books. We are all bound to have different definitions of "efficient", which is probably why there's this discussion on first place.

As for skipping trainers, I want to mention that I almost always fight optional trainers, especially when I am using more than one Pokemon, as otherwise I'd be relatively underleveled for boss fights (I do this for any game, not exclusively for RBY). And for Mt. Moon, the area is not backtrackable until you get Cut, so you might as well just try to clean all trainers there for extra money and Exp. I only ever skip trainers if I am gonna end up overleveling too much for a boss trainer. I don't fight wild Pokemon, in general, because the Exp. obtained is pretty negligible in most cases and I only do it if I am using a starter (or some Route 1-esque Pokemon) and thus want to grind it early-game or when I want to round a level (either because it's close to the next level or because it's going to learn a move that is going to boost its viability against the upcoming boss fight)

Also, tier lists are generally not seen as "teambuilding guides", they are moreso "so I picked [insert Pokemon here]. How is it gonna perform?". Tiering Pokemon individually is actually gonna yield a lot more accurate results than trying to pair it with "best partners", as better Pokemon require less teammates to cover their weaknesses (along with other factors, of course). Regardless, there will be write-ups, which will likely mention a Pokemon's negatives (e.g. in the major fights section of the write-up: "Hitmonlee doesn't perform well against Sabrina") and thus if you need a partner for, say, Hitmonlee, as I used it in my example, you'd just go through and read which Pokemon can do well against Sabrina (e.g. Clefable).

e: example is made for the purposes of making my point clear. Hitmonlee actually can crush 3/4 of Sabrina's team, but I used it as an example just to make my point clear
 

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