Pokemon that disappointed you in-game despite looking good initially?

Agreed! Usually when I look at the tweaks people say Flareon needs I just end up thinking ‘nice job, you remade Entei’

I can understand someone being concerned about Flareon’s in-game performance, because in later games it often struggles, but I think the solution to that is to improve and front-load its level-up movepool, which has always sucked.
It's really hard to rebalance a mon and give it an unique niche.

Some people really do try to buff it into Enteion tho. :psysly:

Someone did mention Lava Plume tho, so why not make it a defensive mon? There ain't a lot of those when it comes to Fire-types.

Stat shuffle: 95/60/130/110/65/65.
The basic idea would be making use of its interesting support moves like Heal Bell and Wish to spread burns while maintaining a decent offensive presence with Fire Blast/Scorching Sands/Shadow Ball/Flame Charge or some other filler. No need for movepool changes and it still gets a nice niche.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
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Someone did mention Lava Plume tho, so why not make it a defensive mon? There ain't a lot of those when it comes to Fire-types.

Stat shuffle: 95/60/130/110/65/65.
The basic idea would be making use of its interesting support moves like Heal Bell and Wish to spread burns while maintaining a decent offensive presence with Fire Blast/Scorching Sands/Shadow Ball/Flame Charge or some other filler. No need for movepool changes and it still gets a nice niche.
Stealth Rock and no recovery move really hurts it, though. :blobsad:
 
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:rb/butterfree:
Another one of those victims of "starts good ends kinda shit" victims of early in-game balancing, Butterfree makes me sad. Like Beedrill, Game Freak has desperately tried to make up for its transgressions against the fan-favourite bug...and every kid who thought they were badass for evolving the bugs...ever since.

Has anyone actually looked at Butterfree's stats? They're like, the saddest things I've seen in my entire life. It's slower than *checks notes* Pidgeotto and Rattata. Not only that, but like, its stats are comparable to that of an NFE. At least Beedrill can claim it has STAB in RBY; Butterfree has nothing, the only move it has of its own type here is String Shot, iirc.

Butterfree, initially, looks ok: it has Powders and Psychic, all of which are excellent. However, even in an in-game run of RBY, its only purpose is Sleep, and there's a ton of Pokemon that can outdo Butterfree...like Jynx, which thanks to the in-game trade, grows like a weed. It's nice for beating Brock early and can give Misty trouble, but after that, it's basically worthless outside of sleeping something, which once again, it's outclassed in that role.

Nothing is sadder than Butterfree man, I swear.
At least the anime got this right XD
 
I think the biggest realistic change that could make Flareon better would be to let Guts pokemon be able to be burned, even if they are a Fire type. The only fire type that receives guts is Flareon, and letting it use Flame Orb to burn itself instead of Toxic Orb would give it more longevity.

For a pokemon that really disappointed me recently would be Zygarde-10% from my Sun playthrough. I figured that hey, its my first time playing the Gen 7 games, ill use the interesting new pokemon (and Metagross), and Zygarde-10% looks cool and seems able to damage everything, and even if it is a Kalos 'mon, this is a new form. Man, I was wrong, I should have just used the normal Zygarde. Mr. doggo kept going down in 1 move seemingly every time. I figured it would be good at cleaning route trainers / pokemon, but it kept on just falling short. Everything else felt nice to use and fun, even Alolan Exeggutor! It was alright, but never really lived up to what I expected.

I'll also give a shout out here to Unfezant in my Pokemon Black run right now, Whimsicott of all things pulls more weight than that bird.
 
I'll also give a shout out here to Unfezant in my Pokemon Black run right now, Whimsicott of all things pulls more weight than that bird.
Shouldn't be THAT bad with Return and Acrobatics.

Meanwhile, SwSh Unfezant should actually consider Giga Impact for STAB because the 2nd strongest Normal one is Facade... :facepalm:
 
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Shouldn't be THAT bad with Return and Acrobatics.

Meanwhile, SwSh Unfezant should actually consider Giga Impact for STAB because the 2nd strongest Normal one is Facade... :facepalm:
Its not completely terrible, Return definitely helps and I just beat Skyla so Acrobatics is now available, but Unfezant has really fallen flat. Somehow, Whimsicott took out Skyla's Swanna and chunked her own Unfezant, while mine just kept on dropping to gym trainers. I'm also already running Stoutland in this run, which has been far better hitting things with Return and has ended up being pretty redundant. Part of the problem is that I initially thought is special attack was higher and it could function as a mixed attacker, but with base 65 spa you really need to rely on work up boosts use that special attack.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Gen 5’s stupid evolution levels don’t even make sense in the context of BW1. You would think it would have a high-level endgame (like XY, DP, or SwSh) but it’s on the lower end with levels ending around 54. Completely bizarre
It definitely did not make sense for where you caught them. People keep saying this but it really doesnt work out.
I took a Vullaby through the entire game and it did not evolve until the post game.

Level 54 is a very high level, the highest level you face is Ghetsis' level 54 Cofagrigus. You are much more likely to finis hthe game with pokemon in their high 40s to very early 50s then you are to naturally hit Braviary/Vullaby's evolution levels. Even Bisharp (level 52!) is probably at best going to be a Bisharp for like...Ghetsis. Maybe N.
Okay, this post in particular is kinda old, but I wanted to address this. Namely, after really thinking about it, I think I have a pretty decent idea of what they were thinking when they designed several of Gen 5's later Pokemon and their obscenely high evolutionary levels.

Basically, R_N pointed out that it's unlikely anyone will be able to evolve several Pokemon such as Mandibuzz, Bisharp, and Braviary until roughly the post game, and that you are likely to "finish" the game with your team at high 40s-50s. But that's the thing, you "finish", quotation marks emphasized, the game at that point against N and Ghetsis.

This is what I'm thinking: BW1 is very likely designed with a mentality similar to the Johto games, in that it's designed with the mentality of "You are not done until you have finished the post game".

The key thing to remember with BW1 is that it has a very notably massive post-game segment after the first visit at the League+Team Plasma. BW1 has an entire half of Unova left unexplored for the post-game, plus several notable post-game locations such as the Dreamyard, Challenger's Cave, and the Royal Unova, as well as higher level Elite Four rematch at Level 70+, which also has a proper battle with Alder at Level 75, with his ace (Volcarona) at Level 77. Cynthia is also a bonus boss with her team at the same levels as Alder.

The game wants you to keep going after Ghetsis. After the first E4 battles and the showdown with N and Ghetsis, the game is basically like "No, it's not over yet". The game immediately gives you a quest involving Looker, which involves hunting down the remaining Six Sages for Looker to take into custody. And of course, an entire half of the region is still unexplored. The game's story is really, really not over after defeating Ghetsis, because it wants you to do this and have Looker capture the rest of the Sages to end off Team Plasma, and in doing so you're expected to continue exploring the rest of Unova, especially the eastern half of the region (Routes 11-15), possibly capture Landorus and Kyurem (who are both post-game legendaries), and then after your team has gained substantial experience from all those battles you have along the way, have one final showdown against the Elite Four, and end off your Unova adventure with one final, proper showdown against Alder, who is the Champion you didn't get to fight beforehand, followed by a real and formal Hall of Fame indictment and a second credits sequence.

See where I'm going with this? Everything before N and Ghetsis, including the Gym Challenge, is essentially the "first half" of the game, while the post-game segment afterwards is essentially treated as the "second half" of the game (even if it's more non-linear and free-form). This is the point of the game where Pokemon such as Mienshao, Braviary, Mandibuzz, and Bisharp are designed to shine: the idea with the later Pokemon of the dex is that you obtain them, raise them for the later segment of Part 1, then once you're in post-game, or in other words, Part 2, enjoy their fully evolved forms while grinding your way through the rest of the battles you have in Eastern Unova (all of which are Level 60+) until you eventually use them in the second League challenge where you face the Elite Four at their full power as well as actually battle Alder. At the point you face Alder, which is Level 75+, you should already have a Hydreigon as well (if you choose to catch and raise Deino, you will spend much of the post-game struggling with the Zweilous phase like I did in one of my most recent playthroughs). There are many, many battles to be had in the post-game half of Unova, which gives you a lot of time to finally enjoy these Pokemon and use them to their full potential in the post-game as a reward for sticking with them. Granted, this is less the case with Hydreigon, but again: Deino is designed to be a post-game pseudo-legendary that is meant to be raised and struggled with in the latter half of the region.

Essentially, the "true finale" of BW1 is not actually Ghetsis, but rather Alder. As I said, the game expects you to take your team from the whole Team Plasma castle segment and carry it over to explore the eastern half of Unova and several other post-game areas, and then battle the Pokemon League again once you're ready level-wise. In that sense, BW1's true endgame levels are around Level 75-77 with Alder's Volcarona being Level 77. Once you "really" complete the game's adventure for real, your team should ideally be somewhere in the 70's. That's around 20+ levels you get to enjoy stuff like Bisharp, Mandibuzz, and Braviary in their fully evolved forms. In the case of Deino, you should already have a Hydreigon by this point after putting in so much effort throughout the post-game to get it to the final stage.

This is the case with BW in particular because the Gen 5 Pokemon's levels are designed with a curve relative to the point of the game you obtain them in BW1: for example, three-stage evolutionary lines like Sandile, Gothita, Solosis, Vanillite, etc. are designed in such a way that you spend at minimum around 10-11 levels in Stage 1, and another 10 or so in the second stage, and vice versa. Every evolutionary line has their levels set in such a way that you spend at least 10 levels with each evolutionary stage: this applies just as much to the later Pokemon in the dex, where they evolve around 10-15 levels from the point you obtain them. But in these cases, they are expected to be trained from the 7th Gym-8th Gym onwards and into the post-game, where the whole post-game segment gives them the opportunity to shine, and again, to put my whole point bluntly: the post-game is still considered part of the main adventure of the game!
BW1's adventure is very unconventional in that the main story does not end off with the first challenge against the Pokemon League: no, it's designed to end after the second match against the Elite Four, which is where you really fight the Champion, who in every Pokemon game is designed to be a Pokemon's game final boss: and in this case, despite what it may seem, Alder is still the formal final boss of BW1 and the match against him is, for all intents and purposes, designed to be the true endgame of BW1.

TL;DR Unova, namely BW1 is very likely designed with a GSC-esque mentality of "You aren't done with the game until you've completed the post-game". Even after Ghetsis, it wants you to continue exploring the rest of Unova, namely the eastern half, with some more story tidbits involving Team Plasma, and expects you to keep training your team until you are ready to rematch the Elite Four and actually battle Alder, which puts some of the Pokemon's stupidly high evolutionary levels into perspective: the late-game Gen 5 Pokemon, such as Mandibuzz/Braviary and Bisharp, are designed so that they are meant to shine in the very extensive post-game segment of BW1, which gives them an opportunity to have substantial time to be used and enjoyed for a certain half of the adventure (which isn't something a lot of late-game Pokemon get to have). The post-game is, for all intents and purposes, still part of the main adventure and is more akin to the "second half" of the game, albeit more free-form than the first half.
 
Okay, this post in particular is kinda old, but I wanted to address this. Namely, after really thinking about it, I think I have a pretty decent idea of what they were thinking when they designed several of Gen 5's later Pokemon and their obscenely high evolutionary levels.

Basically, R_N pointed out that it's unlikely anyone will be able to evolve several Pokemon such as Mandibuzz, Bisharp, and Braviary until roughly the post game, and that you are likely to "finish" the game with your team at high 40s-50s. But that's the thing, you "finish", quotation marks emphasized, the game at that point against N and Ghetsis.

This is what I'm thinking: BW1 is very likely designed with a mentality similar to the Johto games, in that it's designed with the mentality of "You are not done until you have finished the post game".

The key thing to remember with BW1 is that it has a very notably massive post-game segment after the first visit at the League+Team Plasma. BW1 has an entire half of Unova left unexplored for the post-game, plus several notable post-game locations such as the Dreamyard, Challenger's Cave, and the Royal Unova, as well as higher level Elite Four rematch at Level 70+, which also has a proper battle with Alder at Level 75, with his ace (Volcarona) at Level 77. Cynthia is also a bonus boss with her team at the same levels as Alder.

The game wants you to keep going after Ghetsis. After the first E4 battles and the showdown with N and Ghetsis, the game is basically like "No, it's not over yet". The game immediately gives you a quest involving Looker, which involves hunting down the remaining Six Sages for Looker to take into custody. And of course, an entire half of the region is still unexplored. The game's story is really, really not over after defeating Ghetsis, because it wants you to do this and have Looker capture the rest of the Sages to end off Team Plasma, and in doing so you're expected to continue exploring the rest of Unova, especially the eastern half of the region (Routes 11-15), possibly capture Landorus and Kyurem (who are both post-game legendaries), and then after your team has gained substantial experience from all those battles you have along the way, have one final showdown against the Elite Four, and end off your Unova adventure with one final, proper showdown against Alder, who is the Champion you didn't get to fight beforehand, followed by a real and formal Hall of Fame indictment and a second credits sequence.

See where I'm going with this? Everything before N and Ghetsis, including the Gym Challenge, is essentially the "first half" of the game, while the post-game segment afterwards is essentially treated as the "second half" of the game (even if it's more non-linear and free-form). This is the point of the game where Pokemon such as Mienshao, Braviary, Mandibuzz, and Bisharp are designed to shine: the idea with the later Pokemon of the dex is that you obtain them, raise them for the later segment of Part 1, then once you're in post-game, or in other words, Part 2, enjoy their fully evolved forms while grinding your way through the rest of the battles you have in Eastern Unova (all of which are Level 60+) until you eventually use them in the second League challenge where you face the Elite Four at their full power as well as actually battle Alder. At the point you face Alder, which is Level 75+, you should already have a Hydreigon as well (if you choose to catch and raise Deino, you will spend much of the post-game struggling with the Zweilous phase like I did in one of my most recent playthroughs). There are many, many battles to be had in the post-game half of Unova, which gives you a lot of time to finally enjoy these Pokemon and use them to their full potential in the post-game as a reward for sticking with them. Granted, this is less the case with Hydreigon, but again: Deino is designed to be a post-game pseudo-legendary that is meant to be raised and struggled with in the latter half of the region.

Essentially, the "true finale" of BW1 is not actually Ghetsis, but rather Alder. As I said, the game expects you to take your team from the whole Team Plasma castle segment and carry it over to explore the eastern half of Unova and several other post-game areas, and then battle the Pokemon League again once you're ready level-wise. In that sense, BW1's true endgame levels are around Level 75-77 with Alder's Volcarona being Level 77. Once you "really" complete the game's adventure for real, your team should ideally be somewhere in the 70's. That's around 20+ levels you get to enjoy stuff like Bisharp, Mandibuzz, and Braviary in their fully evolved forms. In the case of Deino, you should already have a Hydreigon by this point after putting in so much effort throughout the post-game to get it to the final stage.

This is the case with BW in particular because the Gen 5 Pokemon's levels are designed with a curve relative to the point of the game you obtain them in BW1: for example, three-stage evolutionary lines like Sandile, Gothita, Solosis, Vanillite, etc. are designed in such a way that you spend at minimum around 10-11 levels in Stage 1, and another 10 or so in the second stage, and vice versa. Every evolutionary line has their levels set in such a way that you spend at least 10 levels with each evolutionary stage: this applies just as much to the later Pokemon in the dex, where they evolve around 10-15 levels from the point you obtain them. But in these cases, they are expected to be trained from the 7th Gym-8th Gym onwards and into the post-game, where the whole post-game segment gives them the opportunity to shine, and again, to put my whole point bluntly: the post-game is still considered part of the main adventure of the game!
BW1's adventure is very unconventional in that the main story does not end off with the first challenge against the Pokemon League: no, it's designed to end after the second match against the Elite Four, which is where you really fight the Champion, who in every Pokemon game is designed to be a Pokemon's game final boss: and in this case, despite what it may seem, Alder is still the formal final boss of BW1 and the match against him is, for all intents and purposes, designed to be the true endgame of BW1.

TL;DR Unova, namely BW1 is very likely designed with a GSC-esque mentality of "You aren't done with the game until you've completed the post-game". Even after Ghetsis, it wants you to continue exploring the rest of Unova, namely the eastern half, with some more story tidbits involving Team Plasma, and expects you to keep training your team until you are ready to rematch the Elite Four and actually battle Alder, which puts some of the Pokemon's stupidly high evolutionary levels into perspective: the late-game Gen 5 Pokemon, such as Mandibuzz/Braviary and Bisharp, are designed so that they are meant to shine in the very extensive post-game segment of BW1, which gives them an opportunity to have substantial time to be used and enjoyed for a certain half of the adventure (which isn't something a lot of late-game Pokemon get to have). The post-game is, for all intents and purposes, still part of the main adventure and is more akin to the "second half" of the game, albeit more free-form than the first half.
I like this idea as a general assessment of BW’s structure, but it’s still not enough of a justification for the weird evo levels. Mienshao, Bisharp, Mandibuzz, and Braviary are all good Pokémon, but they’re not so good that they’re worth dragging through the E4 unevolved. Like, I just don’t see why making that early period so difficult improves the experience of using these Pokémon versus having them evolve in the low 40s.

Also, while BW1 is known for having an extensive post-game, it’s also known for having a huge level jump between the E4 and regular postgame trainers. The first time I played White, I distinctly remember getting swept by a Level 64 Pelipper immediately after heading east of Opelucid. An unevolved Pokémon in the high 40s is even less capable of handling this jump than the evolved Pokémon you started raising earlier on.
 
Okay, this post in particular is kinda old, but I wanted to address this. Namely, after really thinking about it, I think I have a pretty decent idea of what they were thinking when they designed several of Gen 5's later Pokemon and their obscenely high evolutionary levels.

Basically, R_N pointed out that it's unlikely anyone will be able to evolve several Pokemon such as Mandibuzz, Bisharp, and Braviary until roughly the post game, and that you are likely to "finish" the game with your team at high 40s-50s. But that's the thing, you "finish", quotation marks emphasized, the game at that point against N and Ghetsis.

This is what I'm thinking: BW1 is very likely designed with a mentality similar to the Johto games, in that it's designed with the mentality of "You are not done until you have finished the post game".

The key thing to remember with BW1 is that it has a very notably massive post-game segment after the first visit at the League+Team Plasma. BW1 has an entire half of Unova left unexplored for the post-game, plus several notable post-game locations such as the Dreamyard, Challenger's Cave, and the Royal Unova, as well as higher level Elite Four rematch at Level 70+, which also has a proper battle with Alder at Level 75, with his ace (Volcarona) at Level 77. Cynthia is also a bonus boss with her team at the same levels as Alder.

The game wants you to keep going after Ghetsis. After the first E4 battles and the showdown with N and Ghetsis, the game is basically like "No, it's not over yet". The game immediately gives you a quest involving Looker, which involves hunting down the remaining Six Sages for Looker to take into custody. And of course, an entire half of the region is still unexplored. The game's story is really, really not over after defeating Ghetsis, because it wants you to do this and have Looker capture the rest of the Sages to end off Team Plasma, and in doing so you're expected to continue exploring the rest of Unova, especially the eastern half of the region (Routes 11-15), possibly capture Landorus and Kyurem (who are both post-game legendaries), and then after your team has gained substantial experience from all those battles you have along the way, have one final showdown against the Elite Four, and end off your Unova adventure with one final, proper showdown against Alder, who is the Champion you didn't get to fight beforehand, followed by a real and formal Hall of Fame indictment and a second credits sequence.

See where I'm going with this? Everything before N and Ghetsis, including the Gym Challenge, is essentially the "first half" of the game, while the post-game segment afterwards is essentially treated as the "second half" of the game (even if it's more non-linear and free-form). This is the point of the game where Pokemon such as Mienshao, Braviary, Mandibuzz, and Bisharp are designed to shine: the idea with the later Pokemon of the dex is that you obtain them, raise them for the later segment of Part 1, then once you're in post-game, or in other words, Part 2, enjoy their fully evolved forms while grinding your way through the rest of the battles you have in Eastern Unova (all of which are Level 60+) until you eventually use them in the second League challenge where you face the Elite Four at their full power as well as actually battle Alder. At the point you face Alder, which is Level 75+, you should already have a Hydreigon as well (if you choose to catch and raise Deino, you will spend much of the post-game struggling with the Zweilous phase like I did in one of my most recent playthroughs). There are many, many battles to be had in the post-game half of Unova, which gives you a lot of time to finally enjoy these Pokemon and use them to their full potential in the post-game as a reward for sticking with them. Granted, this is less the case with Hydreigon, but again: Deino is designed to be a post-game pseudo-legendary that is meant to be raised and struggled with in the latter half of the region.

Essentially, the "true finale" of BW1 is not actually Ghetsis, but rather Alder. As I said, the game expects you to take your team from the whole Team Plasma castle segment and carry it over to explore the eastern half of Unova and several other post-game areas, and then battle the Pokemon League again once you're ready level-wise. In that sense, BW1's true endgame levels are around Level 75-77 with Alder's Volcarona being Level 77. Once you "really" complete the game's adventure for real, your team should ideally be somewhere in the 70's. That's around 20+ levels you get to enjoy stuff like Bisharp, Mandibuzz, and Braviary in their fully evolved forms. In the case of Deino, you should already have a Hydreigon by this point after putting in so much effort throughout the post-game to get it to the final stage.

This is the case with BW in particular because the Gen 5 Pokemon's levels are designed with a curve relative to the point of the game you obtain them in BW1: for example, three-stage evolutionary lines like Sandile, Gothita, Solosis, Vanillite, etc. are designed in such a way that you spend at minimum around 10-11 levels in Stage 1, and another 10 or so in the second stage, and vice versa. Every evolutionary line has their levels set in such a way that you spend at least 10 levels with each evolutionary stage: this applies just as much to the later Pokemon in the dex, where they evolve around 10-15 levels from the point you obtain them. But in these cases, they are expected to be trained from the 7th Gym-8th Gym onwards and into the post-game, where the whole post-game segment gives them the opportunity to shine, and again, to put my whole point bluntly: the post-game is still considered part of the main adventure of the game!
BW1's adventure is very unconventional in that the main story does not end off with the first challenge against the Pokemon League: no, it's designed to end after the second match against the Elite Four, which is where you really fight the Champion, who in every Pokemon game is designed to be a Pokemon's game final boss: and in this case, despite what it may seem, Alder is still the formal final boss of BW1 and the match against him is, for all intents and purposes, designed to be the true endgame of BW1.

TL;DR Unova, namely BW1 is very likely designed with a GSC-esque mentality of "You aren't done with the game until you've completed the post-game". Even after Ghetsis, it wants you to continue exploring the rest of Unova, namely the eastern half, with some more story tidbits involving Team Plasma, and expects you to keep training your team until you are ready to rematch the Elite Four and actually battle Alder, which puts some of the Pokemon's stupidly high evolutionary levels into perspective: the late-game Gen 5 Pokemon, such as Mandibuzz/Braviary and Bisharp, are designed so that they are meant to shine in the very extensive post-game segment of BW1, which gives them an opportunity to have substantial time to be used and enjoyed for a certain half of the adventure (which isn't something a lot of late-game Pokemon get to have). The post-game is, for all intents and purposes, still part of the main adventure and is more akin to the "second half" of the game, albeit more free-form than the first half.
And then they made Rufflet and Vullaby available super early in the last 2 gens.

Oops. :psysly:

I dunno man, it's just really odd to see them return to a RBY-era design with those late evos and in-game defined roles, but that's exactly what happened and they ran into similar problems. (when you look at the bigger picture... Oof.)

I honestly think they should just sit down and start reviewing evolution methods for a lot of these mons. Noibat could really be retooled into an early Dragon that still needs work to evolve but gets to its final form much quicker than say, Salamence to compensate it being a bit weaker than them.

A lot of these late evos are just... Not viable in-game, especially when you can catch them early but still gotta drag them all the way into the 50's to evolve them.
 
And then they made Rufflet and Vullaby available super early in the last 2 gens.

Oops. :psysly:
Kinda reminds me that you can get Noibat early in USUM and you have to grind it up to level 48 or something to evolve it.

On the contrary, when BW2 came out, they made some of the high level evolutions accessable at insanely lower level . You can get Volcarona at level 35 if I recall . That is a Pokemon with the second highest evolution level thus far (not counting Gen 8 because I know nothing minus Farfetch'd needing to crit trice to evolve).
In Gen 7 you can catch level 7 Salamence which is hilarious. Kinda reminds me on these fake Pokemon Chaos games for the GBA where you can encounter level 8 Charizard or something.
 
And then they made Rufflet and Vullaby available super early in the last 2 gens.

Oops. :psysly:

I dunno man, it's just really odd to see them return to a RBY-era design with those late evos and in-game defined roles, but that's exactly what happened and they ran into similar problems. (when you look at the bigger picture... Oof.)

I honestly think they should just sit down and start reviewing evolution methods for a lot of these mons. Noibat could really be retooled into an early Dragon that still needs work to evolve but gets to its final form much quicker than say, Salamence to compensate it being a bit weaker than them.

A lot of these late evos are just... Not viable in-game, especially when you can catch them early but still gotta drag them all the way into the 50's to evolve them.
Idk about this.

There's been a fair amount of talk (on another thread, but I can't remember which) about difficulty levels and how because of the recent trend in lower difficulty, you have to go out of your way to make your own difficulty. Isn't this basically a perfect example of that? If you want to raise a Vullaby or a Rufflet in-game, it's more of a challenge and a delayed payoff compared to something like Unfezant which isn't as strong but evolves far earlier thus will, in general, probably be a more dependable member of your team. While that's not a factor in BW specifically since you don't have the option of catching a Pidove or a Rufflet, it becomes relevant when, as mentioned, later games incorporate them earlier on than their debut games intended.

Dreepy is another example of this: people have pointed out that it'll be horrible to use in-game when the next generation makes it available early on. But it's all part of having so many different species available. The variance is what makes the choice interesting.

Speaking for myself, I'm quite fond of using typically late-game Pokemon as early as possible so I've used all sorts of trash in playthroughs (I even did a Luvdisc only run of Emerald once - surprisingly good fun, actually). I actually did use Rufflet on my most recent playthrough of Pokemon Y (which was well-suited since you end up in the low 60s at the end) and I've actually used Noibat twice; once in Y and once in Ultra Moon. The difficulty of raising both mons made it fun for me.

EDIT: mertyville's comment above actually highlighted the solution to this. I remember grinding SOS battles for a low-level Salamence when I first played through Sun and it took forever. I could have simply caught and raised a Bagon. But having the option to use an unevolved Pokemon or spend ages trying to find an evolved one was pretty much the best of both worlds.
 
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Dreepy is another example of this: people have pointed out that it'll be horrible to use in-game when the next generation makes it available early on.
Why wait? It's super easy to get early in a Crown Tundra 1-star raid.

And yes, it's really, really rough. Dreepy evolves at Lv. 50.

No, not Drakloak, that one is Lv. 60. Dreepy. With all the 4 moves it learns and the strongest one being Astonish (iirc).

F U N

Rufflet can evolve at say, Lv. 35 without ruining its schtick. I'm sure one could find a nice balance for the rest of these mons too.
 
Why wait? It's super easy to get early in a Crown Tundra 1-star raid.
I believe the comment I had in mind about "it'll probably be available in the next gen" was made before CT was released - it was somewhere on here a few weeks back. I haven't played CT.

And yes, it's really, really rough. Dreepy evolves at Lv. 50.

No, not Drakloak, that one is Lv. 60. Dreepy. With all the 4 moves it learns and the strongest one being Astonish (iirc).

F U N
Yes but you're literally disregarding the point of what I was saying.

Dreepy is hard to use, and a grind to raise. That, for some people, will make it entertaining to use in-game. It's Magikarp turned up to eleven.

The whole point is that it's a nightmare to level up.

(Also it learns moves by other methods)
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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while we talk about Rufflet, I want to talk about it in USUM. More specifically, I want to talk about why Rufflet isn't that bad in USUM.

Now, Rufflet spends a lot of time as Rufflet in Ula'Ula. However, Rufflet is very useful in the early-game and some parts of the mid-game (beats Hala, Araquanid, and Lurantis) and is very useful as Braviary in the end-game. And while it's not very good for boss fights between those periods, Rufflet is still able to handle a lot of route trainers on its own, allowing it to maintain some consistency. So, all in all, Rufflet is useful in the beginning and the end, but has its problems in the middle.

Haven't used Vullaby, but it looks a lot worse (it wishes it had better offensive stats)
 
Yes but you're literally disregarding the point of what I was saying.

Dreepy is hard to use, and a grind to raise. That, for some people, will make it entertaining to use in-game. It's Magikarp turned up to eleven.
I'm not, I'm just pointing out that instead of turning it up to eleven, why not turn it up to say... 7 or 8?

Dreepy is still pretty darn hard to grind to say, 35 and it's much more reasonable, yet hard, to do so.

I just want mons to not be completely invalidated for in-game purposes, y'know?
 

Plague von Karma

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:rb/rapidash:
Of all things to make prior to the physical-special split...why Rapidash? I genuinely don't get it.

Rapidash is a classic case of great stats, but without the STAB to make use of them. In my opinion, if it was part Normal-type, it would be a lot better. But it's not, so it sucks. Vulnerable to Body Slam paralysis, only ok damage off its good Attack stat because Fire is special, you get the picture.

This "MLP before it was cool" ass motherfucker is only good for spamming Fire Spin in RBY, but even Moltres does that better because of Agility. Even then, like most of the trash Fire-types, it reels back in horror if there's a pebble in its line of sight. No sauce to see here.

At least the brony at Nintendo gave it massive movepool buffs for no reason in recent generations, it's pretty nifty now.
 
I like this idea as a general assessment of BW’s structure, but it’s still not enough of a justification for the weird evo levels. Mienshao, Bisharp, Mandibuzz, and Braviary are all good Pokémon, but they’re not so good that they’re worth dragging through the E4 unevolved. Like, I just don’t see why making that early period so difficult improves the experience of using these Pokémon versus having them evolve in the low 40s.

Also, while BW1 is known for having an extensive post-game, it’s also known for having a huge level jump between the E4 and regular postgame trainers. The first time I played White, I distinctly remember getting swept by a Level 64 Pelipper immediately after heading east of Opelucid. An unevolved Pokémon in the high 40s is even less capable of handling this jump than the evolved Pokémon you started raising earlier on.
I can agree on the level jump. I remember I was doing a Black Nuzlocke, and I had troubles with a Fearow in dark Grass that I was trying to catch.

There's also a 20 level gap between the Trainers in Victory Road, and Route 11 & 15. And around an 8-10 difference from Ghestis's Hydreigon. At least you can capture level 60+ Pokemon in the grass. There's also the Rotom trade. The problem is your team will be around the mid to late 40s. Maybe in the 50s if you trained a lot. Looking at it, its kind of a bad level curve. Gives me Dark Rising vibes. Yikes.
 
1607023821318.png

I have decided to make another run in Pokemon XD right after the one I finished to test if I can evolve multiple Eevee into Umbreon with the item ingame. After being satisfied with both Shiftry and Ariados, which I didn't expect to be as good as they were, I decided to test some other Pokemon.
When I looked at the list of available Pokemon, I noticed this horrible thing I used once in this game and in my Saphire or Emerald run.
I don't know what is with Baltoy, but it's pretty useless.
It gets Psy Beam and Rock Tomb when you catch it, but they never get the job done. Maybe I got a bad nature but Rock Tomb never came in handy. But what about Ground Type moves? Mud Slap... You are stuck with it until you find the TMs for Dig or EQ.
But it gets Self-Destruct... That can be useful in few situations to get out of a nasty match up. It safed me on few situations, but when it was about getting a shadow Pokemon, I ended up spamming Mud Slap over and over again.

Now imagine to grind that thing to lv36 to make it evolve... Claydol is still pretty bad. It can tank few attacks but can't dish out without blowing up. Low stats. Low base power moves excluding the use of TMs and blowing itself up.
Maybe if I used it with screens, it may have ended up better.
The least I can say it is more useful than Aggron.
1607025028343.png

Speaking of Aggron, I used a bunch of non-Shadow Pokemon in my team and carried them through the story with the EXP-Share.
Trade Pokemon like Larvitar and Elekid to really well (Larvitar only if you don't want to catch the Shadow Pokemon because Sandstream). Pupitar had some good bulk to take certain match ups when it needs too and has Dragon Dance and Rock Slide.
Elekid had the Elemental Punches and it's easy to upgrade Thunder Punch with Thunderbolt and Thunder.
Once Trapinch becomes Flygon, you can teach it pretty much anything useful like Fire Blast, Giga Drain, Crunch.
Aron once it evolves to Aggron is still bad. It may take some hits, but it's physical movepool for in-game is pretty bad. Iron Tail never hits and it doesn't get any good Rock Type moves. You have to rely on tms, but your options aren't that large. Do I really want to teach it EQ and Brick Break?
I didn't bother with the special moves. Maybe someone can convince me to try Fire Blast Aggron or something and I catch another Aron.
 
View attachment 296584
I have decided to make another run in Pokemon XD right after the one I finished to test if I can evolve multiple Eevee into Umbreon with the item ingame. After being satisfied with both Shiftry and Ariados, which I didn't expect to be as good as they were, I decided to test some other Pokemon.
When I looked at the list of available Pokemon, I noticed this horrible thing I used once in this game and in my Saphire or Emerald run.
I don't know what is with Baltoy, but it's pretty useless.
It gets Psy Beam and Rock Tomb when you catch it, but they never get the job done. Maybe I got a bad nature but Rock Tomb never came in handy. But what about Ground Type moves? Mud Slap... You are stuck with it until you find the TMs for Dig or EQ.
But it gets Self-Destruct... That can be useful in few situations to get out of a nasty match up. It safed me on few situations, but when it was about getting a shadow Pokemon, I ended up spamming Mud Slap over and over again.

Now imagine to grind that thing to lv36 to make it evolve... Claydol is still pretty bad. It can tank few attacks but can't dish out without blowing up. Low stats. Low base power moves excluding the use of TMs and blowing itself up.
Maybe if I used it with screens, it may have ended up better.
The least I can say it is more useful than Aggron.
View attachment 296586
Speaking of Aggron, I used a bunch of non-Shadow Pokemon in my team and carried them through the story with the EXP-Share.
Trade Pokemon like Larvitar and Elekid to really well (Larvitar only if you don't want to catch the Shadow Pokemon because Sandstream). Pupitar had some good bulk to take certain match ups when it needs too and has Dragon Dance and Rock Slide.
Elekid had the Elemental Punches and it's easy to upgrade Thunder Punch with Thunderbolt and Thunder.
Once Trapinch becomes Flygon, you can teach it pretty much anything useful like Fire Blast, Giga Drain, Crunch.
Aron once it evolves to Aggron is still bad. It may take some hits, but it's physical movepool for in-game is pretty bad. Iron Tail never hits and it doesn't get any good Rock Type moves. You have to rely on tms, but your options aren't that large. Do I really want to teach it EQ and Brick Break?
I didn't bother with the special moves. Maybe someone can convince me to try Fire Blast Aggron or something and I catch another Aron.
Sooo... CAN you evolve multiple Eevee?

I used Shuckle in my last in-game run of XD. Now that was a hellish experience.
 

Plague von Karma

Hapus gyda bywyd!
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:rb/wigglytuff:
What was the point with Wigglytuff? I shriek in fear, for I do not know. I genuinely do not know why this Pokemon exists, it's the very meaning of unnecessary.

In its inception, Wigglytuff was completely outclassed by Clefable, and as if that wasn't bad enough, even in a playthrough, you can get them in near-enough the same area. Hell, it's not even good there, as Jigglypuff is stuck with Sing for a hot minute. It doesn't get Pound until L9, and the best level you find it at is L7 in RB on Route 3, so you have to spend a while training it up. In Yellow, they had to add it to Routes 8-9 just so it could have an offensive move when you get it. The way around this? Get a Clefairy instead, which has Pound and Growl right from the start. Seriously, what's the point here? If you don't want to level up Jigglypuff, I guess you could use the Water Gun TM..? They have virtually the same movepools, the same Attack stats, only Wigglytuff decided to become a blob of HP to be some kind of bridge between Clefable and Chansey, but horrifically failed in the process.

Even in an optimized environment, the only reason to use Wigglytuff is when you really, really want that mileage from Counter, since it has humungous HP and thus more potential damage. Even then, since Clefable has staying power and Counter is a broken mess that can work when you replace a fainted Pokemon, I would even argue Clefable can pull it off better due to being viable outside of being a Counter bot. The sole, unarguable niche Wigglytuff has over Clefable, along with Jigglypuff, is that it's the lowest level Pokemon you can get with Psywave in RBY, even with tradebacks involved. Considering this, it has a 20% chance of causing a desync with Psywave in a link battle. That's it. The sole niche it has is breaking the fucking game. Read this btw, very interesting.

I guess in Gen 2 they threw it a bone with a SpA increase and it recovers heaps off of Leftovers...but it was too little too late. I love what they did with it in Gen 6, though. It gained a significant niche with the addition of the Fairy type (keeping the Ghost immunity, Fighting becomes neutral). Plus, they buffed SpA to 85 and gave it Competitive. While it wasn't enough to give it even PU status, it's had a spot in VGC, which is more than it can say for literally its entire presence in competitive Pokemon. Maybe if they gave it recovery, it would finally find a place somewhere. It's such a sad Pokemon, man.
 

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