Co-authored by tennisace and DougJustDoug
Proofreading by Deck Knight and Wyverii
Introduction
The purpose of this policy review thread isn’t to make a sweeping reform in the way we do polls in CAP. Well, in a way I suppose it is, however, this PR is meant to address 9 smaller problems I’ve come across as a mod recently. So while this may seem like a large, rambling, long-winded PR thread, it really isn’t. It’s the compilation of smaller changes that aren’t tl;dr. So please, read each individual part because they’re all equally important.
Table of Contents
Part 1: General Polls
[jump=1]I. Poll Length[/jump]
[jump=2]II. Poll Options[/jump]
[jump=3]III. Legal Types of Polls[/jump]
[jump=4]IV. Posting in Polls[/jump]
Part 2: Specific Poll Changes
[jump=5]V. Movepool Poll[/jump]
[jump=6]VI. Ability Polls[/jump]
[jump=7]VII. Secondary Type Poll[/jump]
[jump=8]VIII. Art and Sprite Polls[/jump]
[jump=9]IX. Pokedex Entry Polls[/jump]
Part 1: General Polls
[a]1[/a]I. Poll Length
All polls (and threads for that matter) must stay open a minimum of 24 hours. This is a fairly common sense rule of thumb that I feel needs to be a solid rule. It’s a fairly simple and logical rule that wasn’t followed a couple times and people got really mad. All it does is allow people of all timezones a chance to contribute and vote. This is a no-brainer.
[a]2[/a]II. Poll Options
There are two changes that pertain to the number of options in a poll. The first change is that the TL must choose at least four options for a first poll. This is because 4 options is the smallest number to have a sufficiently diversified slate, and almost always force a second run-off poll. Besides, if the TL cannot choose four separate options, I don’t feel like the TL is sufficiently exploring all options for accomplishing the concept. Though this is now the “strong TL” model, and TL’s are welcome to pick whatever they want for a slate, I feel like this minimum should prevent a total choke-hold on the process and make it more democratic. If the TL could pick only two options for a first and final poll, he/she could easily just choose his/her favorite and a totally undesirable option (like Fire vs Poison for a Pokemon that relies totally on offensive coverage).
On a side note, I’d like to add a bit about this to the TL Guide. Some former TL’s were accused of gaming the polls completely to their liking. While yes, this is the strong TL model, and yes, you do have “free reign” over the slate, just know that the mods are watching for any shenanigans with gaming polls. Having the one reasonable option you like plus three out of the blue crap options is no longer acceptable. All options must have somewhat heavy support in the discussion thread, by either the TL or the general public.
The second change is that any poll with more than 6 options should always be a multiple choice poll. This may seem odd at first -- but here's the reason: With large polls (more than 6 options) there's going to be another poll anyway. So, it's really just a question of determining which options have enough support to move on. In a large poll where users only have one vote -- they are very tempted to not "waste" their vote on something that has little support. Even without that bias -- a single-voting scheme in a large poll does little to indicate where spillover votes will go for the options that don't advance. By allowing multiple votes, everyone can express not only their favorite, but their "spillover votes" too. This ensures that we put the right options through to the next round. This brings us to the next point.
[a]3[/a]III. Legal Types of Polls
Which is getting rid of undesirable poll types entirely. We will have two voting styles ONLY -- Single vote click poll, and unlimited multi-vote.
Single vote click polls are simple and are the easiest option for polls with less than 6 options. However, there is no advantage to having multiple choice click polls over bold polls. Bold polls are easier to regulate generally, since users have to post to participate in them. In addition, they can have any number of options. So they’re always the better option over multi-click polls. As an addendum, all single vote click polls must be public, i.e. you must be able to see who voted for whom. This will become apparent with my next point.
As for multiple choice bold polls; with the vote counting script, there is no real advantage to limiting multi-votes to a set number (like "Pick 3"). Yeah, there are some people that vote for every option - and others that only vote for 1, even though they should vote for more. But, allowing unlimited multi-votes is by far easiest to moderate, and people tend to "self-regulate" on this stuff anyway. Meaning, they only vote for options they like. And when it comes to narrowing the field -- we want to advance the options that are "most liked". Just allow unlimited votes and use the counting script.
Cut all this bullshit with preferential ranking, which encourages shady voting practices like down-voting someone intentionally so your favorite makes it through, and/or forcing people to choose a set number of options. If it's not a simple click poll, then make it a multi-vote bold vote and be done with it.
[a]4[/a]IV. Posting in Polls
The final general change is one that’s been annoying me for a very long time. I want to completely eliminate posting opinions (including who you voted for) of any kind in all polls. Recently, poll threads have turned into discussion threads. If you still have something to say about an option, then clearly the discussion thread wasn’t left open long enough. The focus of CAP shouldn’t be the polls themselves, but the discussions about the options. By shifting all opinions to the discussion thread, it allows it all to be in one place. The discussion threads would remain open during the polls just in case people have last minute points they want to get out.
The other reason for not allowing opinions or posts of any kind (other than votes in bold vote threads) is that generally, all I find is spam when I look at the threads. Many people have received warnings from me saying “That’s nice, but you need to explain why you voted for x.” In a click poll, that information is easily available by clicking on the vote total. In a bold poll, it’s even easier to see because you’re posting your vote so that it’s out in the open to everyone. Your explanation should be well thought out in the discussion thread already, meaning that re-posting your opinion is just another way of threadhogging.
Part 2: Specific Poll Changes
[a]5[/a]V. Movepool Poll
This is the only really controversial suggestion in this thread. As the previous movepool poll has shown us, most final movepools only differ by one or two VGMs and some flavor. For example, in the last poll, the only real difference was that one movepool had Ice Beam and Sucker Punch, while the other didn’t.
I feel that with the new VGM system keeping the relative size in check, it can “replace” the Complete Movepool Poll as the finale to the movepool polls as a whole. So instead of having movepool creaters come up with a complete movepool with flavor moves built in, I propose that they come up with a VGM list, which would have all of the VGMs the Pokemon would be able to learn, in addition to any dependancies a full movepool should have. An example of this would be Mean Look and Baton Pass being illegal on the same set; it would be clearly spelled out that a final movepool could not allow those two together, but must include both. Then, after the Sprite Poll and Final Product thread but before the Dex Entry Poll, a Complete Movepool Submission thread and set of polls would take place, using the chosen VGM list as a concrete basis. This separates the flavor somewhat, but doesn’t remove it completely. I feel like this will bring the movepools even more into line with “real Pokemon” while still keeping the competitive aspect in the forefront.
[a]6[/a]VI. Ability Polls
As a general rule, No Secondary Ability is generally an option on the first Secondary Ability Poll. This should be a hard rule, with an addendum. The official option should be “NSA/Flavor Ability”. The reason for this is that flavor abilities (which I define as having zero competitive use in singles battles) are essentially the same as having NSA. The only time they would actually make a difference is if someone accidentally puts it as the ability (or not accidentally if we eventually get CAP Doubles, at which point the list will change accordingly).
I have compiled a list of flavor abilities, and they are as follows:
In addition, “Flavor Ability” should always be an option in the first Primary Ability Poll. This is so that if we want to make a very powerful Pokemon, we can give it two useless abilities and go from there.
If Flavor Ability (or combo NSA/Flavor Ability) wins either poll, there will be a separate discussion and set of polls after the Complete Movepool Polls but before the Dex Entry Polls. There are few enough options (10 flavor abilities plus NSA if applicable) that a bold poll could include them all; no discussion is really needed since whichever one fits best will be apparent (it’s flavor).
[a]7[/a]VII. Secondary Type Poll
This is the shortest proposal! No Secondary Type should be required to be on the first poll of the Secondary Type Poll. Common sense really, see above section for more info.
[a]8[/a]VIII. Art and Sprite Polls
This rule, though we’ve followed it for a long time, should get set in stone. All legal submissions must be included in the slate for art and sprite polls. Personally, I think all polls that are pure flavor, should basically be a completely democratic community decision. I realize Name polls and Dex Entries are shitstorms, and there's just no way to allow everything into the poll. But, presumably the Topic Leader is not picking their personal favorites there anyway, but is picking the ones that have the most support from the submission thread. I realize that isn't really true in practice, and TL are picking their faves -- but I think we should discourage that. When it comes to art and sprite, it doesn’t really matter what the TL thinks is "best" or not. We do not have any objective reason to restrict art and sprites. I think it should be 100% community voted (from the legal options, that is).
[a]9[/a]IX. Pokedex Entry Polls
I know that I kinda just threw this into CAP11 haphazardly, but I felt that there was really no reason for it to have been taken out in the first place. I know that, yes, it has absolutely no competitive bearing (unlike flavor abilities or complete movepools), and, yes, it takes up time. However, there is no reason not to have it for fun, just have it after every other item that needs to be completed. This would include: Sprites, Complete Movepool Discussion, Complete Movepool Polls, if applicable Flavor Ability Polls, and Final Product/Server Implimentation.
This is how the Pokedex Entry Polls should work:
This is both smooth and short in terms of time, since it isn’t that important as a step, but is still fun!
Conclusion
Some of these changes are long overdue, and some were thought up on the fly. However, all are important, and I believe that all of them should be added to the CAP process because they’re all logical and helpful (or fun)!
Appendix
This would be the complete new Order of Events, with my changes (note that the numbering and order are subject to change):
Proofreading by Deck Knight and Wyverii
Introduction
The purpose of this policy review thread isn’t to make a sweeping reform in the way we do polls in CAP. Well, in a way I suppose it is, however, this PR is meant to address 9 smaller problems I’ve come across as a mod recently. So while this may seem like a large, rambling, long-winded PR thread, it really isn’t. It’s the compilation of smaller changes that aren’t tl;dr. So please, read each individual part because they’re all equally important.
Table of Contents
Part 1: General Polls
[jump=1]I. Poll Length[/jump]
[jump=2]II. Poll Options[/jump]
[jump=3]III. Legal Types of Polls[/jump]
[jump=4]IV. Posting in Polls[/jump]
Part 2: Specific Poll Changes
[jump=5]V. Movepool Poll[/jump]
[jump=6]VI. Ability Polls[/jump]
[jump=7]VII. Secondary Type Poll[/jump]
[jump=8]VIII. Art and Sprite Polls[/jump]
[jump=9]IX. Pokedex Entry Polls[/jump]
Part 1: General Polls
[a]1[/a]I. Poll Length
All polls (and threads for that matter) must stay open a minimum of 24 hours. This is a fairly common sense rule of thumb that I feel needs to be a solid rule. It’s a fairly simple and logical rule that wasn’t followed a couple times and people got really mad. All it does is allow people of all timezones a chance to contribute and vote. This is a no-brainer.
[a]2[/a]II. Poll Options
There are two changes that pertain to the number of options in a poll. The first change is that the TL must choose at least four options for a first poll. This is because 4 options is the smallest number to have a sufficiently diversified slate, and almost always force a second run-off poll. Besides, if the TL cannot choose four separate options, I don’t feel like the TL is sufficiently exploring all options for accomplishing the concept. Though this is now the “strong TL” model, and TL’s are welcome to pick whatever they want for a slate, I feel like this minimum should prevent a total choke-hold on the process and make it more democratic. If the TL could pick only two options for a first and final poll, he/she could easily just choose his/her favorite and a totally undesirable option (like Fire vs Poison for a Pokemon that relies totally on offensive coverage).
On a side note, I’d like to add a bit about this to the TL Guide. Some former TL’s were accused of gaming the polls completely to their liking. While yes, this is the strong TL model, and yes, you do have “free reign” over the slate, just know that the mods are watching for any shenanigans with gaming polls. Having the one reasonable option you like plus three out of the blue crap options is no longer acceptable. All options must have somewhat heavy support in the discussion thread, by either the TL or the general public.
The second change is that any poll with more than 6 options should always be a multiple choice poll. This may seem odd at first -- but here's the reason: With large polls (more than 6 options) there's going to be another poll anyway. So, it's really just a question of determining which options have enough support to move on. In a large poll where users only have one vote -- they are very tempted to not "waste" their vote on something that has little support. Even without that bias -- a single-voting scheme in a large poll does little to indicate where spillover votes will go for the options that don't advance. By allowing multiple votes, everyone can express not only their favorite, but their "spillover votes" too. This ensures that we put the right options through to the next round. This brings us to the next point.
[a]3[/a]III. Legal Types of Polls
Which is getting rid of undesirable poll types entirely. We will have two voting styles ONLY -- Single vote click poll, and unlimited multi-vote.
Single vote click polls are simple and are the easiest option for polls with less than 6 options. However, there is no advantage to having multiple choice click polls over bold polls. Bold polls are easier to regulate generally, since users have to post to participate in them. In addition, they can have any number of options. So they’re always the better option over multi-click polls. As an addendum, all single vote click polls must be public, i.e. you must be able to see who voted for whom. This will become apparent with my next point.
As for multiple choice bold polls; with the vote counting script, there is no real advantage to limiting multi-votes to a set number (like "Pick 3"). Yeah, there are some people that vote for every option - and others that only vote for 1, even though they should vote for more. But, allowing unlimited multi-votes is by far easiest to moderate, and people tend to "self-regulate" on this stuff anyway. Meaning, they only vote for options they like. And when it comes to narrowing the field -- we want to advance the options that are "most liked". Just allow unlimited votes and use the counting script.
Cut all this bullshit with preferential ranking, which encourages shady voting practices like down-voting someone intentionally so your favorite makes it through, and/or forcing people to choose a set number of options. If it's not a simple click poll, then make it a multi-vote bold vote and be done with it.
[a]4[/a]IV. Posting in Polls
The final general change is one that’s been annoying me for a very long time. I want to completely eliminate posting opinions (including who you voted for) of any kind in all polls. Recently, poll threads have turned into discussion threads. If you still have something to say about an option, then clearly the discussion thread wasn’t left open long enough. The focus of CAP shouldn’t be the polls themselves, but the discussions about the options. By shifting all opinions to the discussion thread, it allows it all to be in one place. The discussion threads would remain open during the polls just in case people have last minute points they want to get out.
The other reason for not allowing opinions or posts of any kind (other than votes in bold vote threads) is that generally, all I find is spam when I look at the threads. Many people have received warnings from me saying “That’s nice, but you need to explain why you voted for x.” In a click poll, that information is easily available by clicking on the vote total. In a bold poll, it’s even easier to see because you’re posting your vote so that it’s out in the open to everyone. Your explanation should be well thought out in the discussion thread already, meaning that re-posting your opinion is just another way of threadhogging.
Part 2: Specific Poll Changes
[a]5[/a]V. Movepool Poll
This is the only really controversial suggestion in this thread. As the previous movepool poll has shown us, most final movepools only differ by one or two VGMs and some flavor. For example, in the last poll, the only real difference was that one movepool had Ice Beam and Sucker Punch, while the other didn’t.
I feel that with the new VGM system keeping the relative size in check, it can “replace” the Complete Movepool Poll as the finale to the movepool polls as a whole. So instead of having movepool creaters come up with a complete movepool with flavor moves built in, I propose that they come up with a VGM list, which would have all of the VGMs the Pokemon would be able to learn, in addition to any dependancies a full movepool should have. An example of this would be Mean Look and Baton Pass being illegal on the same set; it would be clearly spelled out that a final movepool could not allow those two together, but must include both. Then, after the Sprite Poll and Final Product thread but before the Dex Entry Poll, a Complete Movepool Submission thread and set of polls would take place, using the chosen VGM list as a concrete basis. This separates the flavor somewhat, but doesn’t remove it completely. I feel like this will bring the movepools even more into line with “real Pokemon” while still keeping the competitive aspect in the forefront.
[a]6[/a]VI. Ability Polls
As a general rule, No Secondary Ability is generally an option on the first Secondary Ability Poll. This should be a hard rule, with an addendum. The official option should be “NSA/Flavor Ability”. The reason for this is that flavor abilities (which I define as having zero competitive use in singles battles) are essentially the same as having NSA. The only time they would actually make a difference is if someone accidentally puts it as the ability (or not accidentally if we eventually get CAP Doubles, at which point the list will change accordingly).
I have compiled a list of flavor abilities, and they are as follows:
- Honey Gather
- Illuminate
- Lightningrod
- Minus
- Pickup
- Plus
- Run Away
- Stench
- Storm Drain
- Sturdy (OHKO Clause is always on. In BW this will supposedly change.)
In addition, “Flavor Ability” should always be an option in the first Primary Ability Poll. This is so that if we want to make a very powerful Pokemon, we can give it two useless abilities and go from there.
If Flavor Ability (or combo NSA/Flavor Ability) wins either poll, there will be a separate discussion and set of polls after the Complete Movepool Polls but before the Dex Entry Polls. There are few enough options (10 flavor abilities plus NSA if applicable) that a bold poll could include them all; no discussion is really needed since whichever one fits best will be apparent (it’s flavor).
[a]7[/a]VII. Secondary Type Poll
This is the shortest proposal! No Secondary Type should be required to be on the first poll of the Secondary Type Poll. Common sense really, see above section for more info.
[a]8[/a]VIII. Art and Sprite Polls
This rule, though we’ve followed it for a long time, should get set in stone. All legal submissions must be included in the slate for art and sprite polls. Personally, I think all polls that are pure flavor, should basically be a completely democratic community decision. I realize Name polls and Dex Entries are shitstorms, and there's just no way to allow everything into the poll. But, presumably the Topic Leader is not picking their personal favorites there anyway, but is picking the ones that have the most support from the submission thread. I realize that isn't really true in practice, and TL are picking their faves -- but I think we should discourage that. When it comes to art and sprite, it doesn’t really matter what the TL thinks is "best" or not. We do not have any objective reason to restrict art and sprites. I think it should be 100% community voted (from the legal options, that is).
[a]9[/a]IX. Pokedex Entry Polls
I know that I kinda just threw this into CAP11 haphazardly, but I felt that there was really no reason for it to have been taken out in the first place. I know that, yes, it has absolutely no competitive bearing (unlike flavor abilities or complete movepools), and, yes, it takes up time. However, there is no reason not to have it for fun, just have it after every other item that needs to be completed. This would include: Sprites, Complete Movepool Discussion, Complete Movepool Polls, if applicable Flavor Ability Polls, and Final Product/Server Implimentation.
This is how the Pokedex Entry Polls should work:
- 1. A discussion thread is opened where people can submit ideas. Standard discussion thread rules apply.
- 2. People choose one entry to make a final submission, and mark it so in the thread.
- 3. The TL chooses a slate of 10 or so choices (give or take a couple) and makes a bold poll.
- 4. The top 3 choices by percentage are chosen as the dex entries (Diamond/Pearl, Platinum, HGSS).
This is both smooth and short in terms of time, since it isn’t that important as a step, but is still fun!
Conclusion
Some of these changes are long overdue, and some were thought up on the fly. However, all are important, and I believe that all of them should be added to the CAP process because they’re all logical and helpful (or fun)!
Appendix
This would be the complete new Order of Events, with my changes (note that the numbering and order are subject to change):
- Topic Leader Nominations
- Policy Review Committee Applications
- Topic Leader Selection
- Concept Submissions
- Part 1 (Concept Poll)
- Concept Assessment
- Part 2 (Main Type Poll)
- Part 3 (Secondary Type Poll)
- Part 4 (Stat and Movepool Limits)
Art Submissions
Stat Spread Submissions - Part 5a (Ability Discussion)
- Part 5b (Ability Poll)
- Part 5c (Secondary Ability Discussion)
- Part 5d (Secondary Ability Poll)
- Part 6 (Stat Spread Poll)
- Part 7 (Art Poll)
- Part 8 (Counters Discussion)
Name Submissions - Part 9 (Name Poll)
Sprite Submissions - Part 10a (Attacking Moves Discussion)
- Part 10b (Attacking Moves Poll)
- Part 11a (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)
- Part 11b (Non-Attacking Moves Poll)
- Part 12a (VGM List Discussion)
- Part 12b (VGM List Poll)
- Part 13 (Sprite Poll)
- Part 14a Complete Movepool Discussion
- Part 14b (Complete Movepool Poll)
- Final Product Thread
Misc (Pre-Evos, Height, Weight, etc.)
Flavor Ability Poll (If applicable) - Server Implementation
Playtesting
Analysis
Dex Entry Submissions - Part 15 (Dex Entry Poll)
