you have to think of the people who solely use the game for competion and to test thier wits
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Poll: Would you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weather was banned?
- Thread starter Woodchuck
- Start date
i would strongly like the perma wheather to saty beacuse its fun to see water and sand compete i know fire thers but it sucks
I'm not a fan of permaweather, but I think it should stay leagal in OU. It's a legitamate strategy, even if it annoys us sometimes. I think I would use another server if Smogon banned perma-weather.
The problem with weather is cheap and easy power ups that it gives that keep each other in check. First of all, we wouldn't be saying the same thing if Drizzle wasn't nerfed and secondly, history (Gen 4) has shown us that at times broken elements keep each other in check :
In Gen 4, Lati@s, Garchomp, Salamence
In Gen 5, Drizzle, Drought, Sand
I would actually play it MORE, instead of UU.
True. I feel some people just cant accept the fact that Gen 5 metagame is weather based and neither is dominant nor broken.
I'm primarily worried that we're going to see Drizzle and Drought get banned while Sandstream rampages unchecked because for some reason INFINITE SAND FOREVER is considered no big deal.
I'd rather they all go than that.
I'd rather they all go than that.
I might play it more. the idea of perma-weather isn't bad but because you have to accomidate accordingly there is a bit of repititon of the same teams. though on the surface the removal just means another gen iv
I don't play OU right now, but I would play if this change was made.
The Usage stats show that weather is very dominating. If it's not broken, then why are all the top used pokes weather abusers or counters? The top twenty are staple weather members.
| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | Sand Stream Inducer
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Rain Abuser/Good in Sand
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 | Sand Abuser
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Good in Rain and Sand
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 | Common Sand Abuser
| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Good in Rain(Surf)
| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Rain Abuser
| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | Sand Abuser
| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Always on Sand Teams
| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Sun Abuser
| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Rain Abuser
| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Rain Abuser
| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Counters Sand Abuser
| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | Rain Inducer
| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Exception
| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Good in Rain
| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Rain Abuser
| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Rain Abuser
| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Rain Abuser
| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 Sun Abuser
Out of the top 20 used pokemon, only one isn't a weather abuser. The data doesn't lie.
I hope you're trolling, because many of those Pokemon function well in no weather as well...
I'm going to play OU on Smogon no matter what happens. Smogon is the greatest Pokemon community on the Internet and I trust the Suspect Test process.
Half of abusers you're talking about are more played than the inducers... So saying they are played for their abusing ability is not really true.
(And Conkeldurr, really ?)
(And Conkeldurr, really ?)
I would play way more if perma-weather was banned, yeah. Hell, I probably would've even argued against perma-sand in Gen IV due to the Rock-type Sp. Def increase (seriously, how does that make sense?). "Weather wars" are not an interesting metagame to me, and by Aldaron's proposal it's obvious that they create a whole boatload of problems.
Brawl was the first evidence I saw that Nintendo was shitting on competition, but Gen V really makes it obvious.
Brawl was the first evidence I saw that Nintendo was shitting on competition, but Gen V really makes it obvious.
Funny how you are stretching the facts to make them support your statement. Your opinion should be based on the facts, not the other way around.
You are calling every Steel type a rain abuser simply because they're weak to fire. So? That's not the reason Steels are used in the first place, they're used for their great defensive typing.
Jellicent is NOT a rain abuser, it's a spinblocker and a bulky water. I never see it in rain teams.
The same goes for Starmie and Rotom. Just because they're water types doesn't make them Rain abuser, they're used just as much outside of rain than in rain.
Reuniclus has Magic Guard, so it is a sand abuser? Don't make me laugh.
Most Dragonite sets are bulky DD and have nothing to do with Rain.
Excadrill is weak to Mach Punch so Conkeldurr is a SS counter? Nice one, you should put every pokemon who learns Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave or Aqua Jet in the Weater-based Pokemons list while you're at it.
Back on topic, I think banning the weather inducers would be trying to artificially change the meta way too much. There should simply be a "No weather" tier, so all the unhappy people would go there, and I would play it sometimes too for a change, but that doesn't mean in any way that weathers should be banned.
Yeah, here's what the top 20 actually do
| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | Sand Stream Inducer true
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Rain Abuser/Good in Sand but needs neither
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 |Sand Abuser Good in Sand
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Good in Rain and Sand, but abuses neither
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 |Common Sand Abuser gets no boost in Sand
| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Good in Rain(Surf) Abuses no weather, gets one small boost in Rain and that's it
| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Rain Abuser Actually it's a Rain counter more ofter used on Sand. Prefers weather but does not need it
| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | Sand Abuser True
| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Always on Sand Teams Have you even played OU? Like, ever? Is not on many Sand teams, does not abuse weather at all, and only likes Sand because of Magic Guard/
| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Sun Abuser If Heatran was only a Sun Abuser, explain how it has twice the usage of Ninetales...
| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Rain Abuser More like Special Wall...seriously. Is this a troll post?
| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Rain Abuser Especially how he's a Bulky DD user. He can function well in Rain but only one or two of his less commonly used sets is boosted in Rain. If you call that a Rain Abuser, then everything with a Water move is a Rain Abuser
| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Counters Sand Abuser So it's a revenge killer. That's called being anti-metagame, not a weather abuser
| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | Rain Inducer True
| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Exception Yep
| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Good in Rain So is every Steel type.
| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Rain Abuser No it's not... It likes Rain if it uses Thunder, which it usually doesn't use... Barely even Good in Rain
| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Rain Abuser Your argument has officially been negated. It runs one Water STAB move, and couldn't care less about Rain
| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Rain Abuser It's not an abuser. It's Good in Rain, but not an abuser.
| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 Sun Abuser Yeah it's pretty good in Sun. Maybe not a full-fledged abuser but it's good
If we continue this (as I'm having fun with it), we see.
| 21 | Infernape | 41804 | 7.6186 | Good in Sun, but not an Abuser
| 22 | Gyarados | 40430 | 7.3682 | Does not care for weather. Kind of likes Rain
| 23 | Blissey | 40129 | 7.3134 | Does not care for weather
| 24 | Forretress | 37361 | 6.8089 | Prefers Rain, but does not abuse it
| 25 | Ninetales | 34024 | 6.2007 | Sun Inducer/Abuser
| 26 | Hydreigon | 34009 | 6.1980 | Does not care about weather
| 27 | Haxorus | 33256 | 6.0608 | Does not care about weather
| 28 | Salamence | 32868 | 5.9901 | very slight bias to Sun. Otherwise does not care/
| 29 | Magnezone | 32777 | 5.9735 | Does not care for weather.
| 30 | Terrakion | 32672 | 5.9544 | Gets small boost in Sand. Otherwise does not care for weather
| 31 | Vaporeon | 29003 | 5.2857 | Does not care for weather unless using Hydration. Good in Rain, but not an Abuser
| 32 | Metagross | 28745 | 5.2387 | Does not care for weather
| 33 | Breloom | 28481 | 5.1906 | Does not care for weather
| 34 | Chandelure | 27876 | 5.0803 | Good in Sun, not an abuser
| 35 | Swampert | 27815 | 5.0692 | Good in Rain and Sand, not an abuser
| 36 | Cloyster | 26698 | 4.8656 | Good in Rain, not an abuser
| 37 | Scrafty | 26494 | 4.8284 | Does not care for weather
| 38 | Hippowdon | 26166 | 4.7687 | Sand Inducer/Abuser
| 39 | Tentacruel | 25863 | 4.7134 | Likes Rain a little. Otherwise doesn't care
| 40 | Lucario | 25625 | 4.6701 | Does not care.
| 41 | Machamp | 23961 | 4.3668 | Does not care
| 42 | Deoxys-S | 23920 | 4.3593 | Does not care
| 43 | Toxicroak | 22830 | 4.1607 | Rain Abuser
| 44 | Virizion | 22229 | 4.0512 | Likes Rain, not an Abuser
| 45 | Espeon | 22019 | 4.0129 | Does not care
| 46 | Bronzong | 21683 | 3.9516 | Likes Rain, not an abuser
| 47 | Porygon2 | 21163 | 3.8569 | Does not care
| 48 | Mienshao | 21101 | 3.8456 | Does not care
| 49 | Venusaur | 21001 | 3.8274 | Sun Abuser
| 50 | Landorus | 20408 | 3.7193 | Sand Abuser
| 51 | Latias | 19992 | 3.6435 | I think it likes Rain a little?
| 52 | Whimsicott | 19976 | 3.6406 | Does not care
| 53 | Darmanitan | 19229 | 3.5044 | Good in Sun. Could be considered abuser.
Most Pokemon don't care about Weather. Yeah, weather is overcentralizing in Gen V. But overcentralization does not correlate to brokenness. Every Pokemon ran Leftovers in Generations 2 and 3, should we have banned it then? It was overcentralizing. Hazards were overcentralizing in every Generation besides the first, should we have banned it? Weather is overcentralizing in Gen V, should we ban it? Obviously, no. Most pokemon couldn't give a damn about weather, they just prefer having it because it's free boosts. Leftovers is a free boost, should we ban it? Weather isn't hurting Gen V OU, it IS Gen V OU. You don't drastically change the metagame just because it's based on one thing. That one thing becomes the centralizing force in the metagame and you have to decide whether to use it and how to use it. If you don't want to use weather, don't. Plenty of non-weather teams succeed in OU which is a testament to how non-broken weather is.
And to all you people saying weather is "unhealthy" for the metagame, please, suck it up. Machamp was pretty unhealthy for Gen IV because of all the hax it promoted. So was Jirachi. You know what we did? We packed counters to them so we could beat them. You could call them "unhealthy" because they promoted luck, but they weren't broken. Brokenness means the game is unplayable because of that pokemon. Does weather make OU unplayable? Does it make the metagame so focused on keeping weather up that if you fail to do so, you automatically lose? No. It's a disadvantage if you lose your weather, but a good player should always account for that when playing OU. If you're running Rain and lose Politoed, you should make sure to keep your Gliscor or Conkeldurr alive to counter Sand. If you're running Sand and see that Tyranitar might not live much longer, you need to focus on countering your opponent's Rain or Sun. If you're running nonweather then you need to pack counters to every weather, but since most teams are weather anyway that's about all you need to account for.
Gen II was all about Snorlax. Gen III was all about Tyranitar. Gen IV was all about Scizor and Heatran (kind of). Gen V is all about weather. Every Gen had something that every team needs to prepare for. The only difference is that Gen V is about a passive effect instead of an actual Pokemon.
Using weather doesn't net you an automatic win. Not using weather doesn't net you an automatic loss. Weather teams can lose to non-weather teams and vice versa. Weather might be easier to play with, weather might overcentralize the meta, but it doesn't break the metagame.
If Smogon bans weather, it would be a lot harder to consider Smogon the definitive competitive Pokemon community. Banning weather turns Pokemon into whinymon and some other pokemon will rise and take its place.
| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | Sand Stream Inducer true
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Rain Abuser/Good in Sand but needs neither
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 |
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Good in Rain and Sand, but abuses neither
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 |
| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Good in Rain(Surf) Abuses no weather, gets one small boost in Rain and that's it
| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Rain Abuser Actually it's a Rain counter more ofter used on Sand. Prefers weather but does not need it
| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | Sand Abuser True
| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Always on Sand Teams Have you even played OU? Like, ever? Is not on many Sand teams, does not abuse weather at all, and only likes Sand because of Magic Guard/
| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Sun Abuser If Heatran was only a Sun Abuser, explain how it has twice the usage of Ninetales...
| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Rain Abuser More like Special Wall...seriously. Is this a troll post?
| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Rain Abuser Especially how he's a Bulky DD user. He can function well in Rain but only one or two of his less commonly used sets is boosted in Rain. If you call that a Rain Abuser, then everything with a Water move is a Rain Abuser
| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Counters Sand Abuser So it's a revenge killer. That's called being anti-metagame, not a weather abuser
| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | Rain Inducer True
| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Exception Yep
| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Good in Rain So is every Steel type.
| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Rain Abuser No it's not... It likes Rain if it uses Thunder, which it usually doesn't use... Barely even Good in Rain
| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Rain Abuser Your argument has officially been negated. It runs one Water STAB move, and couldn't care less about Rain
| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Rain Abuser It's not an abuser. It's Good in Rain, but not an abuser.
| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 Sun Abuser Yeah it's pretty good in Sun. Maybe not a full-fledged abuser but it's good
If we continue this (as I'm having fun with it), we see.
| 21 | Infernape | 41804 | 7.6186 | Good in Sun, but not an Abuser
| 22 | Gyarados | 40430 | 7.3682 | Does not care for weather. Kind of likes Rain
| 23 | Blissey | 40129 | 7.3134 | Does not care for weather
| 24 | Forretress | 37361 | 6.8089 | Prefers Rain, but does not abuse it
| 25 | Ninetales | 34024 | 6.2007 | Sun Inducer/Abuser
| 26 | Hydreigon | 34009 | 6.1980 | Does not care about weather
| 27 | Haxorus | 33256 | 6.0608 | Does not care about weather
| 28 | Salamence | 32868 | 5.9901 | very slight bias to Sun. Otherwise does not care/
| 29 | Magnezone | 32777 | 5.9735 | Does not care for weather.
| 30 | Terrakion | 32672 | 5.9544 | Gets small boost in Sand. Otherwise does not care for weather
| 31 | Vaporeon | 29003 | 5.2857 | Does not care for weather unless using Hydration. Good in Rain, but not an Abuser
| 32 | Metagross | 28745 | 5.2387 | Does not care for weather
| 33 | Breloom | 28481 | 5.1906 | Does not care for weather
| 34 | Chandelure | 27876 | 5.0803 | Good in Sun, not an abuser
| 35 | Swampert | 27815 | 5.0692 | Good in Rain and Sand, not an abuser
| 36 | Cloyster | 26698 | 4.8656 | Good in Rain, not an abuser
| 37 | Scrafty | 26494 | 4.8284 | Does not care for weather
| 38 | Hippowdon | 26166 | 4.7687 | Sand Inducer/Abuser
| 39 | Tentacruel | 25863 | 4.7134 | Likes Rain a little. Otherwise doesn't care
| 40 | Lucario | 25625 | 4.6701 | Does not care.
| 41 | Machamp | 23961 | 4.3668 | Does not care
| 42 | Deoxys-S | 23920 | 4.3593 | Does not care
| 43 | Toxicroak | 22830 | 4.1607 | Rain Abuser
| 44 | Virizion | 22229 | 4.0512 | Likes Rain, not an Abuser
| 45 | Espeon | 22019 | 4.0129 | Does not care
| 46 | Bronzong | 21683 | 3.9516 | Likes Rain, not an abuser
| 47 | Porygon2 | 21163 | 3.8569 | Does not care
| 48 | Mienshao | 21101 | 3.8456 | Does not care
| 49 | Venusaur | 21001 | 3.8274 | Sun Abuser
| 50 | Landorus | 20408 | 3.7193 | Sand Abuser
| 51 | Latias | 19992 | 3.6435 | I think it likes Rain a little?
| 52 | Whimsicott | 19976 | 3.6406 | Does not care
| 53 | Darmanitan | 19229 | 3.5044 | Good in Sun. Could be considered abuser.
Most Pokemon don't care about Weather. Yeah, weather is overcentralizing in Gen V. But overcentralization does not correlate to brokenness. Every Pokemon ran Leftovers in Generations 2 and 3, should we have banned it then? It was overcentralizing. Hazards were overcentralizing in every Generation besides the first, should we have banned it? Weather is overcentralizing in Gen V, should we ban it? Obviously, no. Most pokemon couldn't give a damn about weather, they just prefer having it because it's free boosts. Leftovers is a free boost, should we ban it? Weather isn't hurting Gen V OU, it IS Gen V OU. You don't drastically change the metagame just because it's based on one thing. That one thing becomes the centralizing force in the metagame and you have to decide whether to use it and how to use it. If you don't want to use weather, don't. Plenty of non-weather teams succeed in OU which is a testament to how non-broken weather is.
And to all you people saying weather is "unhealthy" for the metagame, please, suck it up. Machamp was pretty unhealthy for Gen IV because of all the hax it promoted. So was Jirachi. You know what we did? We packed counters to them so we could beat them. You could call them "unhealthy" because they promoted luck, but they weren't broken. Brokenness means the game is unplayable because of that pokemon. Does weather make OU unplayable? Does it make the metagame so focused on keeping weather up that if you fail to do so, you automatically lose? No. It's a disadvantage if you lose your weather, but a good player should always account for that when playing OU. If you're running Rain and lose Politoed, you should make sure to keep your Gliscor or Conkeldurr alive to counter Sand. If you're running Sand and see that Tyranitar might not live much longer, you need to focus on countering your opponent's Rain or Sun. If you're running nonweather then you need to pack counters to every weather, but since most teams are weather anyway that's about all you need to account for.
Gen II was all about Snorlax. Gen III was all about Tyranitar. Gen IV was all about Scizor and Heatran (kind of). Gen V is all about weather. Every Gen had something that every team needs to prepare for. The only difference is that Gen V is about a passive effect instead of an actual Pokemon.
Using weather doesn't net you an automatic win. Not using weather doesn't net you an automatic loss. Weather teams can lose to non-weather teams and vice versa. Weather might be easier to play with, weather might overcentralize the meta, but it doesn't break the metagame.
If Smogon bans weather, it would be a lot harder to consider Smogon the definitive competitive Pokemon community. Banning weather turns Pokemon into whinymon and some other pokemon will rise and take its place.
I gotta agree with this. Just because sand has been always present, people don't see it as quite as a big deal as Rain/Sun offensively. A lot of top-tier pokemon feel at home in sand, and even though it isn't broken, it's annoying as hell that there aren't alternatives available.
lol, this is stupid sounding fanboyism at its finest.
I know you're going to ignore this point, but...within this thread, there is a sizable portion of players who would prefer playing in a "Clear Skies" tier, but don't want to play on beta because skill level is significantly lower there. What harm is there in making a tier where auto-weather inducers are banned? It doesn't undermine the official metagame in any way, it lets people explore new strategies, and we don't have to deal with the slippery slope argument (course, I was one of those people who didn't think drizzle+swsw deserved a ban either, so that says a lot too).
Nkululeo, I think you have the wrong definition of what abuser is. Having a weakness negated in a specific weather isn't the same with abusing the game.
I think it's too late to ban perma-weather now as the metagame is already well structured in the current condition. The solution is banning the abuser, not eliminating the biggest aspect of the metagame.
I think it's too late to ban perma-weather now as the metagame is already well structured in the current condition. The solution is banning the abuser, not eliminating the biggest aspect of the metagame.
banning perma weather is banning tyranitar and hippowdon. while I enjoyed the realatively weather-less 4th generation, it is unfair to ban two pokemon simply because they have no other ability than sand stream. I would love to see weather go ebcasue of how overcentralizing it is, but it isn't healthy for the metagame. it would be like banning entry hazards.
A weather abuser usually has an ability that activates under said weather or a stab move that greatly damages anything.
For instance, garchomp is commonly classified as a sand abuser because it's evasiveness is boosted by sandstorm.
Victini makes A good sun abuser because v-create is boosted to insane levels when sun is up.
Anyway, I like to test the metagame without weather running around everywhere. It's time to get some originality going, which is difficult to do now since pretty much every team out there is using weather, thereby forcing you to run specified weather counters. A lot of the top rated teams are looking exactly the same. And weather is playing a large role in that.
For instance, garchomp is commonly classified as a sand abuser because it's evasiveness is boosted by sandstorm.
Victini makes A good sun abuser because v-create is boosted to insane levels when sun is up.
Anyway, I like to test the metagame without weather running around everywhere. It's time to get some originality going, which is difficult to do now since pretty much every team out there is using weather, thereby forcing you to run specified weather counters. A lot of the top rated teams are looking exactly the same. And weather is playing a large role in that.
...
Ferrothorn is plenty strong on his own. His usage on weather teams means absolutely nothing about the strength of weather. Your argument doesn't work here.
While he is certainly best in Sand, he still sees lots of play on other teams, from SmashPass to generic Aggro. Indeed, I'd be amazed if he doesn't show up on Rain teams. He's less a Sand abuser and more an incredibly good Pokemon that happens to get better in sand.
If you really think that Garchomp's usage would be changed that much simply by removing weather from the game, go ahead and stop reading now, since this post will do nothing to change your opinion.
Your original point was that the usage stats show that weather is dominating. Yet most of your rationalizations are about Pokemon that would see roughly the same amount of play if there was no weather.
The logical conclusion to this line of thought is that your argument doesn't really work.
Correlation does not imply causation. Correlation does not imply causation. Correlation does not imply causation.
Gliscor is good. Gliscor is used on a lot of Sand teams. Gliscor sees play because there are Sand teams. Sand teams are broken.
It. Does. Not. Work. Like. That.
Gliscor's use has extremely little to do with Sand, and everything to do with the fact that he's possibly the best physical wall in OU, to the point where I still use him on my Rain team.
I think you are mistaking "using weather" for "abusing weather". If something gains very little additional usage because of weather, it can't really be called a weather abuser. Rotom-W sees play because it has solid offenses, great STAB options (weather or no), great defensive typing, and great defenses.
Rotom-W's usage has extremely little to do with weather, and everything to do with the fact that it's a great Bulky Water in a very offensive metagame.
But does it see play because it works well against weather, or because it's an amazing Pokemon? It really needs to be the former for your argument to work.
If it were a "sun abuser", it would need to be used primarily on Sun teams, which it obviously does not. It's a great all around Pokemon, but it's usage does not depend entirely upon weather.
So, you're saying it can't be a Special Wall without getting rid of that Fire weakness? Huh, that's an interesting theory.
Losing his Fire weakness does only moderate amounts to affect his ability as a Special Wall. He trades his Fire Weakness for half a Water one. That's hardly the determining factor in why he's good. Rain or no, it's his crippling weakness to Earthquake that's always been his primary failing point.
People have been singing Conky's praises since day one. He sees use because he's possibly the best user of priority Fighting moves in the game, and while Excadrill is the most obvious target for those, there are more than enough Steels floating around the metagame that a powerful Fighting type will always see play.
That his usage has nothing to do with weather?
Yes.
That this is some sort of exception to the rule?
No.
Steels see a lot of usage due to being the best defensive type in the game. They don't need encouragement to see play; weather is a bonus at best. Drizzle generally just makes it so your Steels are quickly dispatched by Surf instead of HP Fire. Sure, there are some exceptions to the rule (Ferrothorn being the biggest), but to the best of my knowledge there is exactly one Wall in the game that does not still have at least one 2x weakness because Drizzle is in play (that being Bronzong).
Moral of the story? If your only plan to take out Steels was to rely on an unSTABed, 70 power Fire attack, you can't be surprised when you lose. Yes, Ferrothorn becomes more annoying by a noticeable amount, but it still dies in a couple hits from any decent Fighting or Fire STAB.
Many of the Suspect Nominations are based on confirmation bias and biased theorymon being used to justify getting rid of things the author doesn't like. Accepting what you see in the Suspect nomination thread as "data" is silly.
Thundurus sometimes sees play on Rain teams. But it also sees plenty of play on non-Rain teams. If you read the Suspect Nomination thread, you'll notice people are calling for its ban because of the ease of setting up with him, his incredible power, and because he can run various priority support moves. If Drizzle and/or Thunder are mentioned at all, it's rarely the crux of their argument.
He sees play almost exclusively because he is a great Special Wall that absorbs Water. Water attacks which see plenty of use regardless of weather's influence.
Yes, because Starmie wasn't good enough for OU the last 4 Generations. Oh wait...
Also, what's your argument here? Even if we pretend that Starmie doesn't see play on non-Rain teams, it still doesn't follow that it's a Rain abuser - it's a good Pokemon that sees play on Rain teams because it's good on Rain teams.
I apparently need to say it again: Correlation does not imply causation. Just because Starmie and Politoed see a lot of play together, that does not mean that Drizzle is the reason that Starmie sees play. Starmie sees play because it is incredibly fast, powerful, has amazing coverage, and has Rapid Spin (a minor consideration normally, but a very important one for many teams).
*Whoosh*
That was the sound of obvious sarcasm soaring over your head.
The argument shouldn't be that most Pokemon don't care about weather, since that's not true. Every Pokemon in the game cares about every single weather, since the existence of weather is guaranteed to affect its matchup against some possible foe. The argument should be that very few Pokemon in OU have their usage determined primarily on weather alone.
I won't deny that weather does change what the metagame looks like, but I have a hard time believing that OU wouldn't contain most of the same Pokemon if auto-weather was banned. While weather obviously has a significant effect on the game so long as it is active, the usage statistics do not indicate that weather is seriously hurting creativity. Weather is part of the metagame, so it seems like trying to ban Drizzle (or weather entirely) is simply trying to change a metagame that you don't like.
Some thoughts:
I actually like auto-weather. Most of it, anyway.
Drizzle: Just ridiculous. It turns an already good defensive type into an overwhelming offensive powerhouse. Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo and Manaphy are menaces. Even without them, Specs Politoed Hydro Pump in rain > Specs Latios Draco Meteor. Surf and Hydro Pump get pumped. Then you have Hurricane/Thunder abusers like Dragonite, Thundurus, Tornadus, maybe even Starmie. Drizzle has the most abusers, and the most powerful ones at that.
Drought: I hear it wreaked a lot of havoc in the lower tiers, especially because of Victini. But, Tyranitar should be enough to keep it in check. Besides, the beneficiaries are Fire-types, who still tend to suffer from an SR weakness, and the Grass-types who have poor offensive typing and risk getting hit by an amplified opposing Fire-type attack. Drought isn't as scary as Drizzle.
Sand Stream: I'd hate to see this one go. Particularly because it hurts Tyranitar's movepool drastically, and I love using Tyranitar whether or not I'm using other weather abusers. (In case people here have forgotten, he does MUCH MORE than supply sand. If you just want sand you may as well use Hippopotas. Tyranitar is a good standalone Pokemon, thank you very much.) Sand's most relevant abusers are Garchomp, Excadrill, and Landorus. I think many people (myself included) agree that Chomp is borked, but Excadrill isn't (not for me) and no one really complains about Landorus. Rock-types like the 50% SpD boost, but not all of them are gonna become sturdy walls like Tyranitar, and it won't save them from Scizor's Bullet Punch or Jirachi's Iron Head.
Snow Warning: Lol. Unless all other weathers go, that is. I remember someone wanted to ban all auto-weathers but Snow Warning, but they probably fail to realize that they will end up sacrificing moveslots just to keep Stallrein/Stallice and maybe Kyurem (he's good, use him) Blizzspam from running around.
TL;DR: Auto-weather's fine. Just not Drizzle. Drizzle is borked.
I actually like auto-weather. Most of it, anyway.
Drizzle: Just ridiculous. It turns an already good defensive type into an overwhelming offensive powerhouse. Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo and Manaphy are menaces. Even without them, Specs Politoed Hydro Pump in rain > Specs Latios Draco Meteor. Surf and Hydro Pump get pumped. Then you have Hurricane/Thunder abusers like Dragonite, Thundurus, Tornadus, maybe even Starmie. Drizzle has the most abusers, and the most powerful ones at that.
Drought: I hear it wreaked a lot of havoc in the lower tiers, especially because of Victini. But, Tyranitar should be enough to keep it in check. Besides, the beneficiaries are Fire-types, who still tend to suffer from an SR weakness, and the Grass-types who have poor offensive typing and risk getting hit by an amplified opposing Fire-type attack. Drought isn't as scary as Drizzle.
Sand Stream: I'd hate to see this one go. Particularly because it hurts Tyranitar's movepool drastically, and I love using Tyranitar whether or not I'm using other weather abusers. (In case people here have forgotten, he does MUCH MORE than supply sand. If you just want sand you may as well use Hippopotas. Tyranitar is a good standalone Pokemon, thank you very much.) Sand's most relevant abusers are Garchomp, Excadrill, and Landorus. I think many people (myself included) agree that Chomp is borked, but Excadrill isn't (not for me) and no one really complains about Landorus. Rock-types like the 50% SpD boost, but not all of them are gonna become sturdy walls like Tyranitar, and it won't save them from Scizor's Bullet Punch or Jirachi's Iron Head.
Snow Warning: Lol. Unless all other weathers go, that is. I remember someone wanted to ban all auto-weathers but Snow Warning, but they probably fail to realize that they will end up sacrificing moveslots just to keep Stallrein/Stallice and maybe Kyurem (he's good, use him) Blizzspam from running around.
TL;DR: Auto-weather's fine. Just not Drizzle. Drizzle is borked.
This. As far as I am concerned, that is all that needs to be said.
Whether it is Drizzle or Drought, Sand Stream or (lol) Snow Warning, it is just part of the game. Some might be harder to beat than others, but none are unbeatable. The game should evolve to revolve around premaweather. And if that means Rain becomes the norm, who cares. Sand was the norm in gen 4, just accept that all weather is the norm of gen 5.