Marowak-A can't be trapped as it is a ghost type.
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Pokémon Porygon-Z
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Marowak-A can't be trapped as it is a ghost type.
I do admit that I pulled that conversion betting on mind games, but still this Porgyon-Z is more independent, can 80-90% plow through his shield after transforming (hence the suicide lead 'stap Skarmory), robs Pheromosa of her HJK and leaving her reliant on a weak Lunge, as well as Shadow ball being more spammable and a good chance for a 20% SpD drop.
Again, each with their benefits and drawbacks, I haven't met a proper stall team yet. Also I dunno why I have Zam (Land-I and making Latios a mega?) and Tapu lele on there, nobody is using priority anymore though with Latios there I might as well remove T-bolt and have Porygon-Z run this instead:
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Conversion
Again, each with their benefits and drawbacks, I haven't met a proper stall team yet. Also I dunno why I have Zam (Land-I and making Latios a mega?) and Tapu lele on there, nobody is using priority anymore though with Latios there I might as well remove T-bolt and have Porygon-Z run this instead:
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
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- Ice Beam
- Conversion
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-482315850
Have a elegon-z mini-sweep. Mostly just to show how easy it's been to set up conversion-z. I lost Porygon-Z to being cocky again a mimikyu but over all a pretty clean win. This thing is monstrous.
Have a elegon-z mini-sweep. Mostly just to show how easy it's been to set up conversion-z. I lost Porygon-Z to being cocky again a mimikyu but over all a pretty clean win. This thing is monstrous.
Using it in my bulu team. Still need to make a few changes and wait for the meta to settle.
80% winrate in 1200- 1300s though.
Agreed on Electric being safer vs. Aegis. I'm not too crazy about giving Aegis a STAB priority move against my sweeper.
Also, I've been having some fun with this set supporting my Porygon:
Boogaloo (Tapu Koko) @ Light Clay
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Nature's Madness
- Volt Switch
Electric Surge boosts Adaptability TBolt even more if it's still up. Screens help for obvious reasons. Nature's Madness lets it severely weaken walls which would otherwise block Z, and unlike Super Fang it can hit Ghosts too. Volt Switch because STAB/Electric Terrain pivot. Nobody expects support Koko.
Also, I've been having some fun with this set supporting my Porygon:
Boogaloo (Tapu Koko) @ Light Clay
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Nature's Madness
- Volt Switch
Electric Surge boosts Adaptability TBolt even more if it's still up. Screens help for obvious reasons. Nature's Madness lets it severely weaken walls which would otherwise block Z, and unlike Super Fang it can hit Ghosts too. Volt Switch because STAB/Electric Terrain pivot. Nobody expects support Koko.
Tried Z-conversion out on a new team today and it was crazy how good of a sweeper it is. I'm really happy that one of my favorite pokemon might have a chance to be viable in higher tier.
That being said, I do question the long term effectiveness of soem variations of this set. Right now, Porygon-Z is in a perfect place as it is able to hit Pharomosa and Aegislash pretty hard, and is able to sweep most things (namely the Tapus) with ease. However when Pharomosa and Aegislash are inevitably banned, and Pokebank mons like Heatran and Keldeo are introduced, I can the ghost variant of this set being less useful. I can definitely see a fighting type variant of the Z-conversion set becoming more popular to counter thing like tyranitar and Heatran. I can also see electric variant remaining relevant for things like Tapu Fini and Ceelisteela.
I might be over thinking this but what do you guys think?
That being said, I do question the long term effectiveness of soem variations of this set. Right now, Porygon-Z is in a perfect place as it is able to hit Pharomosa and Aegislash pretty hard, and is able to sweep most things (namely the Tapus) with ease. However when Pharomosa and Aegislash are inevitably banned, and Pokebank mons like Heatran and Keldeo are introduced, I can the ghost variant of this set being less useful. I can definitely see a fighting type variant of the Z-conversion set becoming more popular to counter thing like tyranitar and Heatran. I can also see electric variant remaining relevant for things like Tapu Fini and Ceelisteela.
I might be over thinking this but what do you guys think?
The problem with Fighting-type Porygon-Z is that its only special move to turn into that type is Hidden Power. Is it really worth using up the Adaptability boost in Hidden Power of all things?
Besides... calling Tyranitar or Heatran "checks" to Porygon-Z that lack HP Fighting is a vast overestimation.
+1 216 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (+1 Porygon-Z outspeeds Scarf, and Band Tyranitar cannot OHKO +1 Porygon-Z with Stone Edge)
+1 216 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (And yes, this is the best thing you have to check it outside of Chansey. Stealth Rock Tyranitar does not even have a slim chance to 2HKO +1 Porygon-Z)
Of course, Tyranitar beats Ghost Porygon-Z, but IMO Electric Porygon-Z is far better.
+1 216 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 216-256 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
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Mamoswine checks Electric variants. Loses to Ghost variants, though.
If we reference ORAS's sets, Life Orb Mamoswine has to switch into Conversion.
+1 216 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 112-132 (31 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 44 Def Porygon-Z: 398-468 (127.9 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does not look that much, but if we add that Mamoswine takes two Ice Beams, 12% from Stealth Rock and 10% from Life Orb recoil due to its Earthquake...
Minimum roll: 31 * 2 + 12 + 10 = 84%
Maximum roll: 36.5 * 2 + 12 + 10 = 95%
A double KO can happen with some prior damage.
It's even worse against already set-up Electric variants that carry Shadow Ball. At best, Mamo can revenge kill with Ice Shard if Porygon-Z is somewhat worn out.
+1 216 SpA Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 198-233 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. +1 0 HP / 44 Def Porygon-Z: 79-95 (25.4 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
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I think once Pheromosa and Aegislash are banned, or at least aegislash the electric variant is going to take over OU. I have personal experience with both and idk if its just my luck but while running the ghost variant I didn't get as many sweeps/partial sweeps as with the boltbeam electric variant. With aurora veil support and a clean set up you are guaranteed to take out half a team at worst with this boi. I kinda love this thing because even if you're forced to switch out you're still running a pokemon that has the special attack to revenge kill so even if you have to waste your set up your slot isn't fully wasted.
If only this boi got dazzling gleam. That would of been nuts.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-482979729
Also, have another replay, if you need more proof this thing is nuts.
If only this boi got dazzling gleam. That would of been nuts.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-482979729
Also, have another replay, if you need more proof this thing is nuts.
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Man that is nice....what is the set you're running is it the same as the one suggested or did you modify it?
I know Tapu Koko does not exactly have good special bulk but wow, OHKOing a resist in Electric Terrain...
Yeah I think so too, but the ghost variant could be useful for countering things like Tapu Lele.
That sweep is crazy it's like nothing can touch that thing. Though it does raise the question of wither it will be banned at some point or not.
Plenty of things can touch it, in particular scarf and priority(especially to ghost because sneak), as well as any ground types who don't get OHKOed(in the case of electric).
But that's the thing; You out speed most choice scarf users and most priority user can't touch you. Lando-T is the only scarfer that comes to mind that even stands a chance, but with the ghost type variant, the added bulk from the Z-Conversion makes Porygon unable to die to earthquake or knock off. if Landp-T is adamant, Porygon-Z outspeeds and Lando is knocked out by a Shadow Ball or Ice Beam(Which I run for that very reason). With Priority users a similar issue comes up with the added bulk. For the ghost variant, no priority user in the game can kill Porygon-Z before it blows them away, espcially once Aegislash is gone since there aren't many users of Shadow Sneak in competitive play aside from it. It's only worse with the electric where it resists notable priority such as Bullet Punch and can wipe out things like Azumarill with Adaptability Thunderbolt. It can 2HKO almost every wall in OU, and OHKO almost every mon OU with ease.
I'm sorry If i sound alarmist, but I have reasonable concern that this thing maybe be banned in the future
Nah. I'm pretty sure this won't get banned, or something like Zard-X would've been banned long ago. After the discussion in "On the Radar" thread, despite being powerful, Porygon-Z has weaknesses that will keep it from being broken.
1. It's frail and kinda slow before set up. With so many powerful attackers with over 90 Speed, finding opportunity to set up is very hard. The lack of resistances due to being Normal type doesn't help it either. Because of this, Porygon-Z needs Dual Screen support most of the time to be able to tank a hit and set up, unlike things like Lando I or Zard X, who can find more opportunities to set up Rock Polish/DD.
2. It can only be used once. Because of this, any bulky phazer is a legitimate check because even a Whirlwind will make it dead weight.
3. It's predictable. It can transform into any type but most of them carry BoltBeam + Conversion + Shadow Ball or Psyshock or Recover. Basically all of it's set share 2-3 moves, that's why it's predictable. Maybe people will complain more if Hidden Power is more widely used.
4. There are enough checks. LO Bisharp hurts the Ghost variant badly (Sucker Punch is a high chance to 1HKO after SR if Adamant even after +1). There's Chansey and SpDef invested Unaware Clefable as hard stops (though fall to Psyshock variants but it's rare). SpDef Heatran can phaze it. Bulky Tyranitar can wall any hit and retaliate with Crunch/Earthquake. Ferrothorn, Excadrill and Alolan Marowak checks the Thunderbolt variants.
I think those are enough points to prove that Porygon-Z isn't broken. People just scream broken because they are unprepared to deal with this thing. It's not like Landorus-I, Zard-X or Genesect, who can steamroll even prepared teams, has fewer checks and more opportunities to set up.
1. It's frail and kinda slow before set up. With so many powerful attackers with over 90 Speed, finding opportunity to set up is very hard. The lack of resistances due to being Normal type doesn't help it either. Because of this, Porygon-Z needs Dual Screen support most of the time to be able to tank a hit and set up, unlike things like Lando I or Zard X, who can find more opportunities to set up Rock Polish/DD.
2. It can only be used once. Because of this, any bulky phazer is a legitimate check because even a Whirlwind will make it dead weight.
3. It's predictable. It can transform into any type but most of them carry BoltBeam + Conversion + Shadow Ball or Psyshock or Recover. Basically all of it's set share 2-3 moves, that's why it's predictable. Maybe people will complain more if Hidden Power is more widely used.
4. There are enough checks. LO Bisharp hurts the Ghost variant badly (Sucker Punch is a high chance to 1HKO after SR if Adamant even after +1). There's Chansey and SpDef invested Unaware Clefable as hard stops (though fall to Psyshock variants but it's rare). SpDef Heatran can phaze it. Bulky Tyranitar can wall any hit and retaliate with Crunch/Earthquake. Ferrothorn, Excadrill and Alolan Marowak checks the Thunderbolt variants.
I think those are enough points to prove that Porygon-Z isn't broken. People just scream broken because they are unprepared to deal with this thing. It's not like Landorus-I, Zard-X or Genesect, who can steamroll even prepared teams, has fewer checks and more opportunities to set up.
All the scarf chomps I've died to want to have a word with you.
I've definitely been playing my electric variant wrong but I do like its potential. The electric variant itself is most definitely a late-game cleaner but it gets stopped pretty hard by marowak. Even still I've gotten at least one kill with it every single time.
The biggest downside is once you convert, you can't pull him back. I'm considering trying the ghost variant as more of a mid or early-game hole-puncher and then then attempt and then cleaning with another sweeper later.
Substitute or an electric-type cpnversion/shadow ball/ ice beam/ thunderbolt might be better for this...
The biggest downside is once you convert, you can't pull him back. I'm considering trying the ghost variant as more of a mid or early-game hole-puncher and then then attempt and then cleaning with another sweeper later.
Substitute or an electric-type cpnversion/shadow ball/ ice beam/ thunderbolt might be better for this...
Hidden Power is a Normal move. Even if the damage will effectively be Fighting, Z-Conversion wouldn't make you a Fighting type, thus, you would get no STAB or Adaptability from it, making it a total waste. If P-Z got Aura Sphere that's a different story, but Fighting P-Z is not currently possible/viable.
Seriously Z-Happy Hour Jirachi I'd say is way better than Porygon-Z - far better defences, a solid typing and flinch-hax. Sure, you don't have as good a STAB due to lacking Adaptability, but everything else is a solid improvement plus the base defence makes it conveniently settable. I've tried both, and I'd say Jirachi is way better.
I've been using this a lot lately and its a ton of fun.
I paired it with Tapu Lele because priority seems to be PZ's enemy and Specs Tapu Lele is an amazing breaker that weakens boltbeam switchins. I'm too lazy to explain the rest of the build but I just felt like posting some replays where it cleans :)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483978351 I weaken scizor here with Specs Tapu and weaken Alolan Muk with Tapu and Pinsir. After I double to PZ on the obvious Chesnaught I dodge the drain punch to win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483988236 Genesect is a huge threat to my team but I can play around it with Tyranitar + Ferrothorn. Luckily he's band so that makes the mu much easier. I am able to set up on his banded zygarde 10 after weakening his FerroTran core and pull out the win.
Hope these replays give you guys an idea of PZ's niche in this meta ^^
I paired it with Tapu Lele because priority seems to be PZ's enemy and Specs Tapu Lele is an amazing breaker that weakens boltbeam switchins. I'm too lazy to explain the rest of the build but I just felt like posting some replays where it cleans :)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483978351 I weaken scizor here with Specs Tapu and weaken Alolan Muk with Tapu and Pinsir. After I double to PZ on the obvious Chesnaught I dodge the drain punch to win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483988236 Genesect is a huge threat to my team but I can play around it with Tyranitar + Ferrothorn. Luckily he's band so that makes the mu much easier. I am able to set up on his banded zygarde 10 after weakening his FerroTran core and pull out the win.
Hope these replays give you guys an idea of PZ's niche in this meta ^^
It's certainly not going overlooked. Not to mention because of that Recover really isn't a horrible 4th move because of just how fast and bulky it is with the option to convert into pretty solid mono-types.
Is Ghost/Fighting still unresisted coverage? Because Shadow Ball/HP Fighting with Recover would be pretty beastly indeed, especially if you sink some of those Speed EVs over into HP or something, or going bulkier with Modest and just overpower things. Because as a Ghost type with a Sucker Punch weakness, you can very easily Recover on predicted Sucker Punches.
I'd consider Dark Pulse. No one has suggested it, but Shadow Sneak is a common way for Ghost-Pory to get killed. (Mimikyu/Aegislash) and Dark is very similar to Shadow Balls' ghost typing.
It does get a weakness to fighting now, but there aren't that many Pre-bank that you need to fear. Ghosts are everywhere though.
It does get a weakness to fighting now, but there aren't that many Pre-bank that you need to fear. Ghosts are everywhere though.
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