This may have been brought up, but Misty Terrain can combat Klefki (plus, most users of it are Fairy types, who are resistant to Dark, and usually have low attack). Taunt kills swag-play instantly (just switch right after it goes through), and as far as Own Tempo not being viable, a commonly used pokemon such as Smeargle would be able to set up easily on Klefki
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Other PranksterSwag Teams
- Thread starter SoulRed12
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How does this at all help the thread? What did I learn about countering or utilizing swagplay from this post? There was already a huge thread that was open for an entire week to gripe and moan about swagplay being broken / not broken. No other discussion regarding swagplay or swagger or prankster or anything of the sort being broken / not broken or suspected will not be tolerated in this thread.
I'll preface by saying that I don't support the banning idea but I'm happy it's being suspected which is a chance for the community to decide.
I'll start by deconstructing what I think is the "best" copypaste swagplay team. Any parafusion team straying from this will be easier to beat.
Hazards: Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Smeargle
Absol/Espeon Counter + Sweeper: Greninja, Aegislash, Dragonite, Scizor, etc
Klefki
Thundurus-I
STAB Foul Play: Sableye or Liepard or Murkrow
Ditto
None of their pokemon hit particularly hard on their first turn in, not even the sweeper. There's only three things you'll need to do to get yourself in the winning position (easier said than done against a good opponent):
1. Control the hazards
2. Always be able to switch switch switch out infinitely between two pokemon that will never fall perish to Foul Play.
3. Have some checks against the meta to handle their sweeper
1.a. Nothing beats Deoxys-S except Magic Bounce, but that's a different discussion. Even a prankster-taunt lead will 50/50 against Magic Coat variants.
1.b. Some Hazard leads also run mental herb, preventing taunt
1.c. All is not lost, these pokemon are the best hazard leads but also die easily and can generally only do their job once
1.d. Every team, even HO, has room for Defog or Spin somewhere. Latios, Mew, and Excadrill are offensive examples, but note their weakness to Foul Play
1.e. Make hazards your first priority. A defogger or spinner immune to paralysis or with a lum berry will help you immensely
2.a. This is easy for defensive teams, manageable for balanced teams, and difficult for offensive teams.
2.b. You can only infinitely switch if hazards are down and you have something like leftovers or poison heal or reliable recovery
2.c. Defensive teams switch between: Alomomola, Tangrowth, Gastrodon, Blissey, Mandibuzz, Clefable, Sylveon, Florges, Umbreon, Tropius, Whimsicott, Togekiss
2.d. These pokemon can try to attack once and if they fail due to parafusion it doesn't matter, no damage taken, switch out to another teammate
2.e. Balanced teams have the above and: Chansey, Rotom-W, Hydreigon, Hippo, Azumarril, Chestnaught, Gliscor, Breloom, Cobalion, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Zapdos
2.f. These pokemon are on a timer and take decent damage from Foul Play, but have many many tries due to their recovery, defenses, and typing
2.g. Offensive teams might try: Tornadus, Mienshao, Reuniculus, Conkeldurr, Scrafty, Krookodile, Salamence, Dragonite, Zygarde, Lati@s, Talonflame, Pinsir
2.h. Some of them have recovery, some of them have priority attacks best used on a free switch in, most of them really don't appreciate Foul Play though
3.a. A general purpose pokemon with priority faster than Klefki is a great start: Thundurus-I, MegaScizor, MegaMedicham, Talonflame
3.b. Consider a ground-type or electric type for the paralysis immunity
3.c. You could also give it a Lum Berry for confusion. Garchomp, Excadrill, Diggersby, Rhyperior, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Raikou, Rotom-A
3.c. There are pokemon like Suicune, Quagsire, Flygon, Terrakion, Keldeo, Lucario that generally work well against swagplay but I didn't fit them in earlier
I hope everyone tries out a few new ideas against the swagplay strategy. I think it's very possible to prepare a team that does well against them, as well as being viable in the OU environment as a whole. It was Einstein who said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Maybe certain types of teams will be very weak against parafusion but very strong against, say, baton pass teams. Look over your team and see if you can deal with swagger in the mean time, it's definitely popular on the suspect ladder.
And always remember that the low ratings area is full of experienced alts with skill far beyond their current rating so don't pull out your hair if you lose to the team archetype every now and then, you'll probably win the next 4 games against them. I think the OU suspect announcement and controversy that goes along with any smogon decision has added momentum to the fad and the teams might be more popular now than they were in the past, but from my experience they weren't overwhelmingly omniprescent on the ladder and because it's generally a poor strategy you'll probably win much more often than not if you put in effort towards countering it.
Here, "counter" has a meaning different than "be able to switch in and force it out". In this context it means having pokemon that swagplay users can't touch and PP stalling them while you heal up, gambling only with safe risk/reward opportunities, minimizing their ability to status you, and don't let the ditto sweep.
I'll start by deconstructing what I think is the "best" copypaste swagplay team. Any parafusion team straying from this will be easier to beat.
Hazards: Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Smeargle
Absol/Espeon Counter + Sweeper: Greninja, Aegislash, Dragonite, Scizor, etc
Klefki
Thundurus-I
STAB Foul Play: Sableye or Liepard or Murkrow
Ditto
None of their pokemon hit particularly hard on their first turn in, not even the sweeper. There's only three things you'll need to do to get yourself in the winning position (easier said than done against a good opponent):
1. Control the hazards
2. Always be able to switch switch switch out infinitely between two pokemon that will never fall perish to Foul Play.
3. Have some checks against the meta to handle their sweeper
1.a. Nothing beats Deoxys-S except Magic Bounce, but that's a different discussion. Even a prankster-taunt lead will 50/50 against Magic Coat variants.
1.b. Some Hazard leads also run mental herb, preventing taunt
1.c. All is not lost, these pokemon are the best hazard leads but also die easily and can generally only do their job once
1.d. Every team, even HO, has room for Defog or Spin somewhere. Latios, Mew, and Excadrill are offensive examples, but note their weakness to Foul Play
1.e. Make hazards your first priority. A defogger or spinner immune to paralysis or with a lum berry will help you immensely
2.a. This is easy for defensive teams, manageable for balanced teams, and difficult for offensive teams.
2.b. You can only infinitely switch if hazards are down and you have something like leftovers or poison heal or reliable recovery
2.c. Defensive teams switch between: Alomomola, Tangrowth, Gastrodon, Blissey, Mandibuzz, Clefable, Sylveon, Florges, Umbreon, Tropius, Whimsicott, Togekiss
2.d. These pokemon can try to attack once and if they fail due to parafusion it doesn't matter, no damage taken, switch out to another teammate
2.e. Balanced teams have the above and: Chansey, Rotom-W, Hydreigon, Hippo, Azumarril, Chestnaught, Gliscor, Breloom, Cobalion, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Zapdos
2.f. These pokemon are on a timer and take decent damage from Foul Play, but have many many tries due to their recovery, defenses, and typing
2.g. Offensive teams might try: Tornadus, Mienshao, Reuniculus, Conkeldurr, Scrafty, Krookodile, Salamence, Dragonite, Zygarde, Lati@s, Talonflame, Pinsir
2.h. Some of them have recovery, some of them have priority attacks best used on a free switch in, most of them really don't appreciate Foul Play though
3.a. A general purpose pokemon with priority faster than Klefki is a great start: Thundurus-I, MegaScizor, MegaMedicham, Talonflame
3.b. Consider a ground-type or electric type for the paralysis immunity
3.c. You could also give it a Lum Berry for confusion. Garchomp, Excadrill, Diggersby, Rhyperior, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Raikou, Rotom-A
3.c. There are pokemon like Suicune, Quagsire, Flygon, Terrakion, Keldeo, Lucario that generally work well against swagplay but I didn't fit them in earlier
I hope everyone tries out a few new ideas against the swagplay strategy. I think it's very possible to prepare a team that does well against them, as well as being viable in the OU environment as a whole. It was Einstein who said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Maybe certain types of teams will be very weak against parafusion but very strong against, say, baton pass teams. Look over your team and see if you can deal with swagger in the mean time, it's definitely popular on the suspect ladder.
And always remember that the low ratings area is full of experienced alts with skill far beyond their current rating so don't pull out your hair if you lose to the team archetype every now and then, you'll probably win the next 4 games against them. I think the OU suspect announcement and controversy that goes along with any smogon decision has added momentum to the fad and the teams might be more popular now than they were in the past, but from my experience they weren't overwhelmingly omniprescent on the ladder and because it's generally a poor strategy you'll probably win much more often than not if you put in effort towards countering it.
Here, "counter" has a meaning different than "be able to switch in and force it out". In this context it means having pokemon that swagplay users can't touch and PP stalling them while you heal up, gambling only with safe risk/reward opportunities, minimizing their ability to status you, and don't let the ditto sweep.
I agree dedicated hazards setter, sweeper, Ditto, Thundurus-I and Klefki are pretty much mandatory in any decent Swag team.
The last slot is up for debate though.
I think a third Prankster is not always the optimal choice, but if you do want to use another one then you should choose Sableye with Toxic as its 4th move. Why? Because it forces Chansey to either switch (thus causing passive damage from hazards) out or waste PP on Aromatherapy/Heal Bell and she can't do anything back.
If you don't want to use a third Prankster then Conkeldurr is the overall best choice and it doubles as a revenge killer as well.
By the way do note that Thunder Wave isn't mandatory on Thundurus-I. In fact you can run Discharge or Thunderbolt to deal with Mandibuzz and Keldeo, who otherwise give you problems.
The last slot is up for debate though.
I think a third Prankster is not always the optimal choice, but if you do want to use another one then you should choose Sableye with Toxic as its 4th move. Why? Because it forces Chansey to either switch (thus causing passive damage from hazards) out or waste PP on Aromatherapy/Heal Bell and she can't do anything back.
If you don't want to use a third Prankster then Conkeldurr is the overall best choice and it doubles as a revenge killer as well.
By the way do note that Thunder Wave isn't mandatory on Thundurus-I. In fact you can run Discharge or Thunderbolt to deal with Mandibuzz and Keldeo, who otherwise give you problems.
The entire "strategy" boils down to "press swagger and hope you get lucky". That's hardly something that can be called a strategy as much as pressing buttons at random can be called a strategy
I'm sorry it came of that was I was actually looking at it from a countering "swagplay" view point and the fact that it's not something you need to overly worry about, also had the banning (or discussion of) Swagplay not been a thing I highly doubt that a strategy that next to no one uses would have over 150 replies. Do people discuss Baton pass teams to such a degree? No because there not of great merit because no one uses them how is this significantly different. I apologize.
Well when using one move significantly improves the usefulness of another I'd call it a strategy otherwise why doesn't teeter dance or other confusion move work jsut as well on all of these set. The additional damage on foul play is a nice boon.
You mean like how Lock On significantly improves the usefulness of Sheer Cold?
Just because two moves have synergy together doesn't mean it's a legitimate strategy to use them together. Spamming a same move or a set of moves regardless of what's in front of you does not count as a strategy. If you can win without even looking at what the opponent has or uses against you, there's a problem.
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Set up and do what? Baton pass to something on priority T-Wave/Swagger and Foul Play?
PS: even taunt relies on the first turn 50/50 to not get hit by confusion.
PPS: Good luck using something shitty and consuming as misty terrain in OU just for one gimmicky pokemon.
I am currently using SwagPlay for the suspect ladder and it's actually very good. However, SwagPlay is a very uncompetitive strategy and can be used in Gen 5 OU and is ridiculously annoying there to. Seriously, last generation, it got an analysis.
Klefki is easily the staple of all SwagPlay teams. Its unique typing lets you completely monkey around the whole metagame easily switching into things like Scizor and things like Talonflame to completely wreck them with Swagger. However, the confusion itself is not broken and uncompetitive, giving +2 Attack means your opponent will be taking a lot if it is a physical attacker. Combine this with paralysis, and your opponent will probably RageQuit or lose their pokemon. To be honest, Klefki is really great on swagplay teams: a swagplay team must have it.
Okay, so I want you take a look at Liepard next. One of the few things that come to mind is that it has really fast Foul Play along with Thundurus-I, but I don't really find any use of using it this generation. It's ridiculously frail meaning and has crappy typing meaning that it's easily the easiest to pick off of all SWAG users. However, I have recently discovered a strategy that can even beat Chansey. Yes, Chansey is easily the hardest pokemon to beat on SWAG teams and being able to beat it is a godsend. Say hello to the use of Spite: Spite is a move that drains the PP by 4 of the last move the foe has used. Usually, Chansey will be taking repeated damage from Confusion hax along with Foul Play. If confusion at +4 Atk occurs while you use Foul Play, Chansey will take 25% damage. Two of those? Yup, Chansey will use Softboiled, then you Spite and Softboiled only has 11 PP. Repeat this and Softboiled will have 6 PP then 1PP and from there Chansey cannot do much. This is pretty much the only reason you want to use Liepard due to its ability to easily stall out Roost, Synthesis, and Softboiled from special attackers.
On the Murkrow topic, its typing and being rather bulky with eviolite makes it another good user for swagplay. Sadly, it will either have to give up Substitute or Thunder Wave because Roost is staple on its sets but I prefer Thunder Wave leaving this (for Liepard too) scenario. Murkrow is definetely a good 'mon on swagplay teams.
Thundurus-I is probably the user of swagplay that should always be used because it checks Mega Pinsir which is commonly found on the upper ladder and even a +4 Quick Attack won't do more than you think because like all swagplay users, it can run HP investment. Like Klefki, the lack of a STAB Foul Play is sad, but both of their typings make them definitely worth it.
Sableye is something I don't like on swagplay teams. It's horridly outclassed by Murkrow which has a much better typing and is bulkier thanks to Eviolite (has Roost too so don't say Recover makes it good). Both have STAB Foul Play, so there is really nothing to compare. Don't use Sableye. If you want a spinblocker, then Mega Banette is better. Mega Banette, easily the most oddball swagplay user. It is bulkier than Sableye, but also lacks STAB Foul Play, but the interesting thing about it is mono-ghost typing. This typing is definitely a good draw for using it as it has very few weaknesses meaning that it can Mega Evolve safely because Prankster doesn't take place on the MEvo turn. Pain Split is a staple on it. It completely draws out HP after a couple of Substitutes from the foe while stacking up confusion damage. If you need a spinblocker, just use Mega Banette due to its much better bulk.
______
How to use the playstyle is a different story. A swagplay team should never use more than 4 swagplay users or less than 2 swagplay users. Swagplay is a complete waste of a team slot so building around it is your best option. Running to much swagplay is losing its potential. If you want to build a successful swagplay team then try to use the following.
Easily another staple on swaplay. Its ability to revenge kill dirty threats while sweeping is amazing. If you trace a +6 Attack boost from Mega Heracross for example, you can sweep your opponent clean with Megahorn. Seriously, swagger pairs excellently with Ditto making it easily the most powerful sweeper for swagplay teams. Use this; it's good.
Obviously, you'll have to give up Mega Banette for Mega Absol, but its ability to come in on Chansey and set-up in its face and sweep is great. Magic Bounce is probably the only reason you would want this over Mega Scizor because it completely turns Toxic against Chnasey and makes it easy swag bait late-game on teams that don't want Liepard. Combine this with the fact you can pick off weakened "swagged" threats with Sucker Punch makes it a great addition to swagplay teams.
I guarantee you that swagplay forces the most switches in the metagame than even HO teams! Spikes + SR takes advantage of this while also making games go faster by making things die of confusion damage faster because they already took massive damage from hazards. The part that almost all swag teams have a ghost-type mans that Mega Blastoise and Excadrill won't be ending your hazard fun swag days. Caution of defog however.
Yea, swagplay is easily the most annoying strategy in the current metagame and there is a reason it might be getting the ban hammer: it is extremely uncompetitive and you win 70% of the time even without any knowledge of a new metagame
edit: yea, sableye is garbage because it doesnt learn twave
Klefki is easily the staple of all SwagPlay teams. Its unique typing lets you completely monkey around the whole metagame easily switching into things like Scizor and things like Talonflame to completely wreck them with Swagger. However, the confusion itself is not broken and uncompetitive, giving +2 Attack means your opponent will be taking a lot if it is a physical attacker. Combine this with paralysis, and your opponent will probably RageQuit or lose their pokemon. To be honest, Klefki is really great on swagplay teams: a swagplay team must have it.
Okay, so I want you take a look at Liepard next. One of the few things that come to mind is that it has really fast Foul Play along with Thundurus-I, but I don't really find any use of using it this generation. It's ridiculously frail meaning and has crappy typing meaning that it's easily the easiest to pick off of all SWAG users. However, I have recently discovered a strategy that can even beat Chansey. Yes, Chansey is easily the hardest pokemon to beat on SWAG teams and being able to beat it is a godsend. Say hello to the use of Spite: Spite is a move that drains the PP by 4 of the last move the foe has used. Usually, Chansey will be taking repeated damage from Confusion hax along with Foul Play. If confusion at +4 Atk occurs while you use Foul Play, Chansey will take 25% damage. Two of those? Yup, Chansey will use Softboiled, then you Spite and Softboiled only has 11 PP. Repeat this and Softboiled will have 6 PP then 1PP and from there Chansey cannot do much. This is pretty much the only reason you want to use Liepard due to its ability to easily stall out Roost, Synthesis, and Softboiled from special attackers.
On the Murkrow topic, its typing and being rather bulky with eviolite makes it another good user for swagplay. Sadly, it will either have to give up Substitute or Thunder Wave because Roost is staple on its sets but I prefer Thunder Wave leaving this (for Liepard too) scenario. Murkrow is definetely a good 'mon on swagplay teams.
Thundurus-I is probably the user of swagplay that should always be used because it checks Mega Pinsir which is commonly found on the upper ladder and even a +4 Quick Attack won't do more than you think because like all swagplay users, it can run HP investment. Like Klefki, the lack of a STAB Foul Play is sad, but both of their typings make them definitely worth it.
Sableye is something I don't like on swagplay teams. It's horridly outclassed by Murkrow which has a much better typing and is bulkier thanks to Eviolite (has Roost too so don't say Recover makes it good). Both have STAB Foul Play, so there is really nothing to compare. Don't use Sableye. If you want a spinblocker, then Mega Banette is better. Mega Banette, easily the most oddball swagplay user. It is bulkier than Sableye, but also lacks STAB Foul Play, but the interesting thing about it is mono-ghost typing. This typing is definitely a good draw for using it as it has very few weaknesses meaning that it can Mega Evolve safely because Prankster doesn't take place on the MEvo turn. Pain Split is a staple on it. It completely draws out HP after a couple of Substitutes from the foe while stacking up confusion damage. If you need a spinblocker, just use Mega Banette due to its much better bulk.
______
How to use the playstyle is a different story. A swagplay team should never use more than 4 swagplay users or less than 2 swagplay users. Swagplay is a complete waste of a team slot so building around it is your best option. Running to much swagplay is losing its potential. If you want to build a successful swagplay team then try to use the following.
Yea, swagplay is easily the most annoying strategy in the current metagame and there is a reason it might be getting the ban hammer: it is extremely uncompetitive and you win 70% of the time even without any knowledge of a new metagame
edit: yea, sableye is garbage because it doesnt learn twave
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