Metagame Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Day Healer]

Ok then, never thought I could start a discussion about a ground mon, but here we are.
So between all the playstyles played this gen (balance, screens, weather, etc) the most succesful by far is Hazard Stacking, and I present you the KING of Hazard Stacking,

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This deer right here carrying a vessel in his head carries both Dark and Ground as well. And I present you his partners in crime,

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Both strong spinblockers to ensure cute hazards stay in your side of field and dont get removed, thank you very much (from my experience only Tatsugiri have a chance to beating them being a rapid spin special attacker)
Here are the sets that Ting Lu runs in Ground and Dark btw (if someone have better spreads pls post em):

Dark Ting-Lu

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
Evs are so it can tank 2 moonblasts from Flutter Mane or Iron Valiant at full health, counting on Vessel of Ruin. The rest is put in defense for overall bulk. Plan is put the most hazards possible so strong breakers like band Meowscarada, scarf Chien Pao or SD Kingambit can finish the job.

Ground Ting-Lu

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD
Impish Nature
- Throat Chop / Ruination (?)
- Whirlwind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Evs make it tank 2 Ice crash from Chien Pao/ 2 Flower Tricks from Meowscarada or even +1 Icicle Spear from Baxcalibur if needed. Rest is into special defense. This Ting Lu is purely a phazer, after teammates put down some hazards his job is to dont die and whirlwind the most it can. Ruination can be used like the attackin move (I have no tested it so I put it with a ?)

At this point you could tell me "Then use your defogger silly day healer?". Lets have a look at all the viable defoggers this gen:

viable in both flying and steel, steel sometimes prefer Body Press variant though

viable in fire

putting maushold here since Tiddy Up is a hazard removal too

Only niche in electric is defog, most people prefer eelektross like ground immunity tbh

So in total 4 types (or 5 if we take the yellow birb). That leave us with magic bouncers aka Hatterene and anti leads with Taunt like shaky answers, as Froslass (did I already say Ting Lu is immune to prankster taunt? Bad news sableye/grimmsnarl).

Final thoughts: Do I think Ting Lu like a single pokemon is broken? Nope. Or uncompetitive? Neither, BUT it allows a playstyle that can give an unfair advantage given the actual state of the meta. Then again, maybe i'm wrong and Hippowdon can simply take its place in a ground team, but personally I dont think so, because the lesser bulk, not being immune to taunt prankster and specially for its single Ground type and lack of Ruination. If u read all my essay thank you OwO

 

[Aschmaros]

I saw some posts talking about Chien-Pao, and using Chi-Yu to argue that it too should be banned, but let me remind everyone that Gamefreak for some God forsaken reason hasn't implemented a way to reliably check special attackers via lowering their sp atk from statuses or abilities. They did have frostbite in Arceus which effectively solved this issue somewhat as it was burn for special attack, but they just didn't transfer it over for some reason. You also don't have abilities like Intimidate for special attackers that would help. This in turn makes it so that crazy special attackers (like Chi-Yu) are more unhealthy to deal with than Chien-Pao ignoring their individual checks/counters. Even then, Chi-Yu was so absurdly strong that it dealt with the usual special walls easily. If you think Chien-Pao is still a problem, maybe try experimenting more or pick a type that isn't grass idk because as i've just explained, they are nowhere near the same power level.

 

[mushamu]

Hot take but I really don’t think Chi-yu is that much worse than Chien-pao in terms of unhealthiness. They’re both very similar in being absurdly strong Pokemon on different ends of the offensive spectrum. While Chi-yu is stronger than Chien-pao, Chien-pao is faster than Chi-yu, meaning there is a trade off. In terms of Intimidate and burn I don’t feel like Chien-pao suffers greatly from either of those because they’re simply just not that common and Ice STAB is amazing in Monotype regardless. Chien-pao deals with physical walls the same way Chi-yu deals with special walls; they’re very similar in that sense due to their power, not to mention Dark’s lack of a good defensive backbone outside of Ting-lu holding the two back to a degree. Personally I don’t feel like Chi-yu should have been banned that early and is moreso suspect material alongside arguably Flutter Mane, Chien-pao, and others.

 

[Ronman5]

I saw some posts talking about Chien-Pao, and using Chi-Yu to argue that it too should be banned, but let me remind everyone that Gamefreak for some God forsaken reason hasn't implemented a way to reliably check special attackers via lowering their sp atk from statuses or abilities. They did have frostbite in Arceus which effectively solved this issue somewhat as it was burn for special attack, but they just didn't transfer it over for some reason. You also don't have abilities like Intimidate for special attackers that would help. This in turn makes it so that crazy special attackers (like Chi-Yu) are more unhealthy to deal with than Chien-Pao ignoring their individual checks/counters. Even then, Chi-Yu was so absurdly strong that it dealt with the usual special walls easily. If you think Chien-Pao is still a problem, maybe try experimenting more or pick a type that isn't grass idk because as i've just explained, they are nowhere near the same power level.

If we listened to what grass players had to say we’d have to ban using flying type in general.

joke aside there are clear power levels in monotype, newer people tend to get really attached to one type and complaining once they find an mon who eventually just beats their whole team when they use an low meta type like Grass, Rock, (as it pains to write this currently) bug and more when their opponent is using an fairly common type like in your example Dark

As for Chi-yu let me write this to tell you the best wall for it in OU rn is Clodsire… while that’s solid that’s only on two types not the rest of the types so yes it’s super unhealthy in the metagame. It has enough power to destroy Chansey and blissey after an Nasty plot, clod survives mainly due to unaware

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Hot take but I really don’t think Chi-yu is that much worse than Chien-pao in terms of unhealthiness. They’re both very similar in being absurdly strong Pokemon on different ends of the offensive spectrum. While Chi-yu is stronger than Chien-pao, Chien-pao is faster than Chi-yu, meaning there is a trade off. In terms of Intimidate and burn I don’t feel like Chien-pao suffers greatly from either of those because they’re simply just not that common and Ice STAB is amazing in Monotype regardless. Chien-pao deals with physical walls the same way Chi-yu deals with special walls; they’re very similar in that sense due to their power, not to mention Dark’s lack of a good defensive backbone outside of Ting-lu holding the two back to a degree. Personally I don’t feel like Chi-yu should have been banned that early and is moreso suspect material alongside arguably Flutter Mane, Chien-pao, and others.

I would've been open to the idea of a suspect for instead of a quickban and I definitely see it as harder to handle than , I would probs vote for a ban if it was brought back for a suspect. There isn't as great a diversity of special walls/tanks in the tier, especially not on the calibre of what Iron Hands/Forretress/Avalugg can offer for lower viability types that have to face Dark, and as a result I had found it much easier to check and counter Chien Pao with lower viability types when it was in than I had with Chi Yu. Add to this that Chi Yu is far more threatening to the balanced/bulky meta, and puts the Dark v Steel mu back in Dark's favor. The lower offensive stat, lack of high power attacks, and variety of defensive backbone that can answer Chien Pao all makes it a mon that's notably less threatening in my book than Chi Yu is.

Such an unban of would make the Dark V Steel mu, one that I believe is in Steel's favor or at the least even especially with competent users, back into Dark's favor, while also turning the Bug mu into one that's much more 50/50 if they don't carry Life Orb First Impression . Amongst other types that will further struggle to handle such as Elec/Grass. It'll put alot more pressure on balanced builds, with Poison likely being the one that loses the most there, though Bulky Water and Ground would also have issues. This is at least some of how I imagine the meta will respond, if only just touching on the subject, but ultimately I think it would solidify Dark as the #1 type and would be a step backwards in tiering.

 

[mushamu]

I would've been open to the idea of a suspect for instead of a quickban and I definitely see it as harder to handle than , I would probs vote for a ban if it was brought back for a suspect. There isn't as great a diversity of special walls/tanks in the tier, especially not on the calibre of what Iron Hands/Forretress/Avalugg can offer for lower viability types that have to face Dark, and as a result I had found it much easier to check and counter Chien Pao with lower viability types when it was in than I had with Chi Yu. Add to this that Chi Yu is far more threatening to the balanced/bulky meta, and puts the Dark v Steel mu back in Dark's favor. The lower offensive stat, lack of high power attacks, and variety of defensive backbone that can answer Chien Pao all makes it a mon that's notably less threatening in my book than Chi Yu is.

Such an unban of would make the Dark V Steel mu, one that I believe is in Steel's favor or at the least even especially with competent users, back into Dark's favor, while also turning the Bug mu into one that's much more 50/50 if they don't carry Life Orb First Impression . Amongst other types that will further struggle to handle such as Elec/Grass. It'll put alot more pressure on balanced builds, with Poison likely being the one that loses the most there, though Bulky Water and Ground would also have issues. This is at least some of how I imagine the meta will respond, if only just touching on the subject, but ultimately I think it would solidify Dark as the #1 type and would be a step backwards in tiering.

I don’t think there are a great diversity of defensive Pokémon in general for SV Monotype at the moment. Chien-pao still poops on a lot of teams thanks to this, and you can do similar things with Choice Specs Hydreigon/Iron Jugulis as well if you look at it compared to Chi-yu’s influence because it still destroys a lot of types with its firepower, including Steel. You can also argue Chien-pao smothers Ground and Dragon the same way Chi-yu destroys Steel; it’s essentially the same idea. Chien-pao also gets the absurd speed going for it in a super offensive metagame.

I personally don’t feel Dark or Fire was too overbearing with Chi-yu in the tier, and while it is an absurdly strong Pokémon, counterplay for it was fairly similar to other threats that roamed around especially considering the extremely offensive way the metagame is oriented at the moment. Not to say balance builds are not viable at the moment, but there is already an extremely high amount of pressure placed on them by default and Chi-yu isn’t different than other Pokémon like Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, and Chien-pao in keeping them down. At the point in which Chi-yu was quickbanned in the metagame, I feel it was really hard to pinpoint it as the reason why Dark was so good, as well as the metagame still starting to settle with many adaptations to Dark as it progressed.

In terms of Chi-yu answers, Choice Scarf Iron Treads answer it pretty well for Steel. Thanks to Dark having no removal, it also gets chipped down by Stealth Rock if it chooses to use non-Heavy Duty Boots. Nasty Plot sets are hard to set up with thanks to its abysmal bulk. It’s technically always possible to argue that the metagame can adapt to a lot of Pokemon, but there’s a fine line between Pokemon like Annihilape and Iron Bundle compared to Chi-yu where the former was extremely constricting for the metagame and the latter was simply too strong thanks to Water’s defensive backbone. Neither of these apply to Chi-yu that it wouldnt for Chien-pao, Flutter Mane, Baxcalibur or Iron Valiant, which are all amazing offensive Pokémon restricted by the team support of the types they are on.

Regarding the lower tier types against Chi-yu, I don’t feel like they should be taken into account. They’re lower tier types for a reason, and in the case of Bug, it loses just as well to Iron Jugulis/Hydreigon as well as many other Pokémon due to the lack of defensive synergy.

The bottom line is I feel that Chi-yu should have been given more time for the metagame to adapt around it instead of being quickbanned early on, as there are multiple reasons for me to believe that it could have been balanced when compared with other offensive powerhouses in the tier as they are all restricted by the team support that they lack.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I don’t think there are a great diversity of defensive Pokémon in general for SV Monotype at the moment. Chien-pao still poops on a lot of teams thanks to this, and you can do similar things with Choice Specs Hydreigon/Iron Jugulis as well if you look at it compared to Chi-yu’s influence because it still destroys a lot of types with its firepower, including Steel. You can also argue Chien-pao smothers Ground and Dragon the same way Chi-yu destroys Steel; it’s essentially the same idea. Chien-pao also gets the absurd speed going for it in a super offensive metagame.

I personally don’t feel Dark or Fire was too overbearing with Chi-yu in the tier, and while it is an absurdly strong Pokémon, counterplay for it was fairly similar to other threats that roamed around especially considering the extremely offensive way the metagame is oriented at the moment. Not to say balance builds are not viable at the moment, but there is already an extremely high amount of pressure placed on them by default and Chi-yu isn’t different than other Pokémon like Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, and Chien-pao in keeping them down. At the point in which Chi-yu was quickbanned in the metagame, I feel it was really hard to pinpoint it as the reason why Dark was so good, as well as the metagame still starting to settle with many adaptations to Dark as it progressed.

In terms of Chi-yu answers, Choice Scarf Iron Treads answer it pretty well for Steel. Thanks to Dark having no removal, it also gets chipped down by Stealth Rock if it chooses to use non-Heavy Duty Boots. Nasty Plot sets are hard to set up with thanks to its abysmal bulk. It’s technically always possible to argue that the metagame can adapt to a lot of Pokemon, but there’s a fine line between Pokemon like Annihilape and Iron Bundle compared to Chi-yu where the former was extremely constricting for the metagame and the latter was simply too strong thanks to Water’s defensive backbone. Neither of these apply to Chi-yu that it wouldnt for Chien-pao, Flutter Mane, Baxcalibur or Iron Valiant, which are all amazing offensive Pokémon restricted by the team support of the types they are on.

Regarding the lower tier types against Chi-yu, I don’t feel like they should be taken into account. They’re lower tier types for a reason, and in the case of Bug, it loses just as well to Iron Jugulis/Hydreigon as well as many other Pokémon due to the lack of defensive synergy.

The bottom line is I feel that Chi-yu should have been given more time for the metagame to adapt around it instead of being quickbanned early on, as there are multiple reasons for me to believe that it could have been balanced when compared with other offensive powerhouses in the tier as they are all restricted by the team support that they lack.

Nah we didn't go from flat out rejecting Iron Jugulis asn option in the context of Chi Yu + dreigon to saying it does the same thing.

That being said I'll agree with one thing that the ban came quick for - and a bit out of nowhere in the context of what we were discussing at the time, though I personally think that it was a valid mon to quickban and was an unhealthy imbalance in the tier. I don't think most people even considered that it would even be quickbanned when we were discussing balancing the tier, at least in my opinion I kinda saw it as something I wanted gone but would probs have to vote ban in a suspect to get that. I made posts bringing up how it was definitely an oppressive mon to face for many types, but there is truth to saying that it wasn't communicated as much as Annihilape/Flutter/Bundle in the forums. Don't want to come across as I'm agreeing with you though, as there's a bit you said that I full on disagree with.

Saying "lower tier types against Chi Yu shouldn't be taken into consideration", that is plain nonsense. Up until this point in the meta, people playing had the opinion that Chien Pao has much more realistic checks and counters than Chi Yu does. All I've seen you point out as well was the perspective of top types as well.

Regarding the lower tier types against Chi-yu, I don’t feel like they should be taken into account.

Bam, the Mushamu POV, presented in Dark Mode like a normal human being. Even aside from the fact that at the time I found Chi Yu to be an incredible wallbreaking threat with Bulky Water, and against Ground as well bringing it in could very easily just mean that something dies, the discussion of monotype and tiering needs to take into account all matchups. Perhaps you had a bit too much of that No Type Favorism fruit juice to think that representing types such as Electric/Poison in this discussion whatsoever takes away from the point, but my perspective of the meta across the board from higher to lower tier types is that Chien Pao has far more checks and counters than Chi Yu. In the comparison of Electric, Chi Yu can kill just about everything with the exception of Iron Hands, a mon that is essential to keep alive in the match to win the matchup. A dark v elec with no Chi Yu is very different than a dark v electric with Chi Yu, whereas the same matchup without Chien Pao would hardly be much better imo. This is just one type I'm using as an example, but I think is pretty synonymous with the different amount of pressure that exists between Chien Pao and Chi Yu for most matchups. My experiences with multiple types, including both high and yes lower viability, was that with the exception of Flying/Grass/Dragon/Ground Chi Yu had pretty consistently been more difficult to handle. I personally think that the council chose the correct mon to ban to help limit the oppressive options that Dark had. If the people think that the quickban didn't give it enough time for people to adapt then I'd be willing to accept that and ask for a suspect, where I'd likely put in a banvote.

I'll also point out that Chi Yu stood out, and was determined to be banworthy by the council, in a Bundle Annihilape meta. I said earlier that it stood out for types that I was using on the ladder, and when I say that Chien Pao has never seemed as bad, it seemed a pretty universal concept by the time Chi Yu was banned that Chien Pao had alot more counterplay, and is far less limiting on the meta.

 

[mushamu]

Nah we didn't go from flat out rejecting Iron Jugulis asn option in the context of Chi Yu + dreigon to saying it does the same thing.

I'm saying it has the same effect as special attackers that are hard to switch into. Take Hydreigon too, as well as the other types I mentioned.

That being said I'll agree with one thing that the ban came quick for - and a bit out of nowhere in the context of what we were discussing at the time, though I personally think that it was a valid mon to quickban and was an unhealthy imbalance in the tier. I don't think most people even considered that it would even be quickbanned when we were discussing balancing the tier, at least in my opinion I kinda saw it as something I wanted gone but would probs have to vote ban in a suspect to get that. I made posts bringing up how it was definitely an oppressive mon to face for many types, but there is truth to saying that it wasn't communicated as much as Annihilape/Flutter/Bundle in the forums. Don't want to come across as I'm agreeing with you though, as there's a bit you said that I full on disagree with.

My point was essentially Chi-yu was gone too quick without metagame development and that Chien-pao is similar to it in that adaptations have surfaced for it and Dark. I strongly believe Chi-yu should be taken into consideration for a resuspect and was quickbanned too early due to how the metagame has adapted to such a strong threat in Chien-pao as they are similar in terms of metagame impact.

Saying "lower tier types against Chi Yu shouldn't be taken into consideration", that is plain nonsense. Up until this point in the meta, people playing had the opinion that Chien Pao has much more realistic checks and counters than Chi Yu does. All I've seen you point out as well was the perspective of top types as well.

Bam, the Mushamu POV, presented in Dark Mode like a normal human being. Even aside from the fact that at the time I found Chi Yu to be an incredible wallbreaking threat with Bulky Water, and against Ground as well bringing it in could very easily just mean that something dies, the discussion of monotype and tiering needs to take into account all matchups. Perhaps you had a bit too much of that No Type Favorism fruit juice to think that representing types such as Electric/Poison in this discussion whatsoever takes away from the point, but my perspective of the meta across the board from higher to lower tier types is that Chien Pao has far more checks and counters than Chi Yu. In the comparison of Electric, Chi Yu can kill just about everything with the exception of Iron Hands, a mon that is essential to keep alive in the match to win the matchup. A dark v elec with no Chi Yu is very different than a dark v electric with Chi Yu, whereas the same matchup without Chien Pao would hardly be much better imo. This is just one type I'm using as an example, but I think is pretty synonymous with the different amount of pressure that exists between Chien Pao and Chi Yu for most matchups. My experiences with multiple types, including both high and yes lower viability, was that with the exception of Flying/Grass/Dragon/Ground Chi Yu had pretty consistently been more difficult to handle. I personally think that the council chose the correct mon to ban to help limit the oppressive options that Dark had. If the people think that the quickban didn't give it enough time for people to adapt then I'd be willing to accept that and ask for a suspect, where I'd likely put in a banvote.

With all due respect I still don't understand what you mean by this. Feel free to pm me on discord or explain it to me more because I've tried to comprehend this like 5 times and I still don't know how to read this. I do appreciate you breaking it down for me, it just does not make sense and gets more confusing the more I try to read it and what Chi-yu vs Chien-pao has to do with Electric and Poison. My only point was lower tier types have been disregarded in the history of Monotype tiering due to them already struggling with a myriad of issues. You wouldn't ban Tapu Koko in SM Monotype even though it destroys every single lower tier type. I also ask that you please do not argue using personal attacks as that ruins the entire point of a healthy discussion.

Edit: I finally got what you're trying to say here after rereading it again. Electric and Poison are not lower tier types. What I meant by lower tier types was stuff like Bug, Grass, etc. Whether or not Bug is low tier or not is irrelevant to the discussion, as I do feel like Bug has issues that are not related to Chi-yu and is instead just a filmsy type that Chi-yu only outlines. I also don't know where you are going with the "no type favoritism" and I know how Monotype is tiered. Chien-pao vs Chi-yu honestly do not have a huge difference vs Electric and Poison because Iron Hands checks both with the former and the latter dies to most breakers anyways. I've also had more trouble with Chien-pao in comparison to Chi-yu when playing SV Monotype that is outside the types you mentioned but at that point it's just my word for your word and not going anywhere. Either way I'm done arguing with you since I've pretty much gotten my point across. You can pm me on any platform if you want to talk about this more.

 

[Samm (13ms)]

hey everyone I know that the ghost and dark are pretty popular atm but has anyone tried and possibly slightly succeeded in making psychic work?

 

[TheWyvernKing]

hey everyone I know that the ghost and dark are pretty popular atm but has anyone tried and possibly slightly succeeded in making psychic work?

Yeah there are pretty decent psy builds, got a decent bit of potential, see it as more of a low mid tier type that I guess if you wanted to rank them would be in the range of like 11-15 overall imo. I definitely struggled with building it start of gen but it's pretty workable, don't want to hype it up too too much it's not a spectacle or anything but has some cool stuff like Gallade, Espathra, plus good ole Hatterene.

How big an impact people thinking Cinderace will have/is having since it's out now, kinda think the libero nerf hits it harder than Meowscarada but Court Change is also pretty big. Overall still think Fire will be nowhere near busted with it but guess we'll find out.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

My point was essentially Chi-yu was gone too quick without metagame development and that Chien-pao is similar to it in that adaptations have surfaced for it and Dark. I strongly believe Chi-yu should be taken into consideration for a resuspect and was quickbanned too early due to how the metagame has adapted to such a strong threat in Chien-pao as they are similar in terms of metagame impact.

Yeah I agree as I said was gone fast, part of me thinks we would've had better discussion about it overall if we knew it was seriously being considered for a quickban, cause I really saw it at the time as something with a tie vote we'd probs suspect in another round.

I'll do more with the Band you'd been hyping up, anecdotal evidence is never great for this kinda thing so I'll bring replays in the future from me facing it/using it to try and justify a point. Time to whip out some of my mid tier type ladder alts on the ladder I guess. I'll also specify that if it was between ban both or unban both I'd definitely go ban both.

 

[TTK]

I'll add my quick 2c into the Chien-Pao/Chi-Yu discussion.

I frankly think it was fine that Chi-Yu was banned at the point that it was, it was comparable to Bundle (which got banned at the same time) in terms of how defensively, there were no consistent, reliable ways of the overall meta handling it. Bundle obviously was worse because it was faster than everything bar Dragapult and Water/(Freeze Dry) literally did not have a single mon that resisted it.

Why I do not believe Chien-Pao is relative to Chi-Yu

Mushamu has been making their point since yesterday basically along the lines of "Chi-Yu = Chien-Pao" (ftr I am not downplaying the discussion here, this is simply the basis of their point after all, correct me if I'm mistaken.) Now I can interpret this in multiple ways, which I'll outline below.

1. As Offensive Pokemon: Even this, I cannot agree with. Chi-Yu is the more threatening pokemon despite Chien-Pao's higher speed tier. Higher attacking stat (135 > 120), better defensive typing so often, Chi-Yu is less threatened and has more staying power, also can take special hits well while Chien-Pao is overall just frail, less special walls than physical walls. Like Chien-Pao has to worry about common stuff like physdef Dondozo, both Water and Fire Tauros, Iron Hands (mushamu also stated in chat this can handle Chi-Yu as well but this cannot switch into Specs Psychic), Colbur Skeledirge (an adaptation that I ran on Ghost to beat not only this but Dark's physical attackers). Chi-Yu just doesn't care about its defensive answers because Specs makes them all irrelevant and Fire was super relevant pre-ban because Specs Sun even dealt with Spdef Ting-Lu and Blissey with one move.
2. Impact on the Metagame: Chi-Yu still is the stronger pokemon in this regard. Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao were the best special and physical wallbreakers Dark has access to respectively. Dark losing Chi-Yu made Dark's special wallbreaking capabilities plummet. Not to say Hydreigon and Hydreigon 0.5 (Jugulis) are bad pokemon, but they aren't Chi-Yu and they aren't relative to Chien-Pao in the slightest. Chi-Yu made Fire easily a top type on its own when it was around, it became the guy under Sun, demolishing the special walls that could theoretically take its hits before like Clodsire, Iron Hands, Spdef Ting-Lu and it didn't even need specs to 2hko Clod in sun. Chien-Pao never reached this level of wallbreaking power ever, and didn't even carry Ice when the type was at its best (When Bundle was here).

tldr Chien-Pao is strong, not Chi-Yu level. I do think if we had a suspect test for Chi-Yu it would've been banned anyway. People complained about Ape ban but not a soul was sad Chi-Yu was gone. Now there are people who still find issue with Chien-Pao, but my opinion is similar to that of WyvernKing in one of their posts above + what I said today.

 

[Aschmaros]

This is a question directed to the Council, but could anyone of them explain the council's reasonings on not quickbanning either Dondozo or Revival Blessing? Mostly in regards to Dondozo, I can understand the sentiment on not quickbanning Revival Blessing (though I'm of the opinion that Revival Blessing/Leppa Berry is simply uncompetitive, but w/e)

 

[Silveruby]

This is a question directed to the Council, but could anyone of them explain the council's reasonings on not quickbanning either Dondozo or Revival Blessing? Mostly in regards to Dondozo, I can understand the sentiment on not quickbanning Revival Blessing (though I'm of the opinion that Revival Blessing/Leppa Berry is simply uncompetitive, but w/e)

Well, I'm not counsil but in my opinion, Dondozo was never overcentralized at any given point. Lack of reliable recovery like slack off or recover and not having regenerator keeps Dondozo manageable. Having to heal with rest is incredibly exploitable and many better types such as steel, dark, and poison can exploit this fact. Yes, it is incredibly annoying seemingly able to just eat any physical attacks, but with proper team building (e.g. thunderbolt on gholdengo) Dondozo isn't the indestructible threat many people make it out to be. In addition it hard loses to any taunt users which renders it neigh useless vs types that water already struggling with such as dark and dragon. As for revival blessings, I cannot say for certain whether or not this move is unhealthy for the meta, 8v6 is just not fair on paper. However, revival blessings is hard stuck on Bug, Psychic, Electric and Fighting. The former 3 are generally considered not very good types to play with and fighting can utilize Pawmot very well but if fighting is the only abuser of this broken move, then it shouldn't break the meta.

 

[Snapteryx]

how do I write a moveset for a Mon?

I can't really tell if you mean copy pasting set imports or actually making your own sets so I'll just answer for both.
For set imports, there's an import/export button right above the moves section in the teambuilder. You can make a set in the teambuilder, use the export button then copy paste the text.

If you want to write one manually for whatever reason, the format looks something like this.
Pokemon @ Item
Ability: _____
Tera Type: _____
EV Spread
_____ Nature
IVs (if changed)
- Move 1
- Move 2
- Move 3
- Move 4

As for how to actually build sets, you'll need to understand the roles each pokemon can fill and what metagame threats you'll need to take into account. I'll use a gen 8 set for this example just because I'm more confident in gen 8.

I probably made this a bit too long srry

Mantine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Defog / Toxic
- Haze
- Roost
Mantine for gen 8 flying acts as a defensive mon who's main niche comes from being a bulky water type with haze and water absorb. Water absorb in particular is good for the water matchup, and haze can stop a decent chunk of set up sweepers. 248 hp EVs instead of 252 is to make Mantine's hp an odd number so it's stealth rock damage gets rounded down. This is common practice for most stealth rock weak mons. 96 speed is just enough to outspeed Azumarill and haze it before it does any serious damage. You want physical defense for the remaining EVs because most of the threats Mantine wants to shut down happen to be physical attackers. Plus, Mantine has 140 base spdef so it already has good special defense without any investment. For the moveset, scald is a staple for every bulky water in gen 8, haze is for stopping set up sweepers that would otherwise use Mantine as set up fodder, and roost is just mandatory healing. The last slot is usually defog but toxic can also be used if you already have a defogger and prefer the chip damage from toxic. I prefer running toxic Mantine myself but it really depends on your team comp.

I have no idea how to wrap this up so uhhhhhhhhhhhhh hope this helps

Edit: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Yea Contributions and Corrections for gen 9 monotype aren't out yet so rip

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Nah bro I meant the contributions thanks for the info tho

 

[Turtlek]

Why is Poison considered bad? It still has everything it wants I see? Guess, Pex, Clodsire...

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Who tf said Poison was bad rite now Amogus and Pexatox form a disgusting defensive core and Poison has access to great breakers like specs Moth and scarf Gengar, Clodsire is an amazing new mon and home will bring Sneasler Poison is just getting started.

 

[Rebelpyroflame]

Why is Poison considered bad? It still has everything it wants I see? Guess, Pex, Clodsire...

Thank cha! It's so nice to see someone appreciate my favourite type.

Cha right, poison does have some nice toys. We've got three of the best defensive Mon in toxapex, ammungus and clodshire, and the massive loss of hazard removal makes toxic spikes even scarier. Iron moth is a great sweeper if given an opening and glimmora is a great toxic setter with corrosion or toxic debris and finally she's got an exclusive rapid spin.

The problem is a matter of comparison. There's a number of very powerful new Mon added. Iron moth is good, but it's overshadowed by the other paradox Mon. Dark gets the ruin Mon, and ghost got a big buff. Don't forget the healing nerf and losing scald on toxapex limits defensive and balanced plays. Poison has good Mon, but the choices are limited when compared to other types.

Speaking of home, what Mon are everyone looking forward too? Do we know when it's being released and what Mon we're getting?

As far as poison goes, we're getting loa sneasler and overqwil. Sneasler is an amazing physical sweeper and dire claw looks amazing, while overqwil looks to be an amazing dark type, which poison sorely needed.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

The mon I'm waiting for is samurott-h seems like he'll be great for Water and has the most spammable move in the game with Ceaseless Edge lmao
Also ur wording is really cool

 

[ken]

Mono SV Kickoff Tour
Week 1 | Week 2 | Week 3 | Week 4 | Week 5 | Semi-Finals & Finals​

Week 5 (Playoffs Round 2) Usage Stats

17 matches were played in week 5, resulting in 34 teams being used.

Type vs type win-rates (enjoy the screenshot of my spreadsheet since the ascii table is huge):

Type usage & win-rates (included non-mirror win%):

+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+-------------+---------------------+
|  Types   | Wins | Losses | Usage | Usage% |    Win%     | Win% (minus mirror) |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+-------------+---------------------+
| Bug      |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |           - |                   - |
| Dark     |    1 |      1 |     2 |   5.88 |          50 |                  50 |
| Dragon   |    0 |      3 |     3 |   8.82 |           0 |                   0 |
| Electric |    1 |      0 |     1 |   2.94 |         100 |                 100 |
| Fairy    |    1 |      2 |     3 |   8.82 | 33.33333333 |                   0 |
| Fighting |    3 |      2 |     5 |  14.71 |          60 |                  60 |
| Fire     |    2 |      2 |     4 |  11.76 |          50 |                  50 |
| Flying   |    1 |      0 |     1 |   2.94 |         100 |                 100 |
| Ghost    |    2 |      0 |     2 |   5.88 |         100 |                 100 |
| Grass    |    0 |      1 |     1 |   2.94 |           0 |                   0 |
| Ground   |    2 |      1 |     3 |   8.82 | 66.66666667 |         66.66666667 |
| Ice      |    1 |      1 |     2 |   5.88 |          50 |                   - |
| Normal   |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |           - |                   - |
| Poison   |    1 |      0 |     1 |   2.94 |         100 |                 100 |
| Psychic  |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |           - |                   - |
| Rock     |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |           - |                   - |
| Steel    |    0 |      1 |     1 |   2.94 |           0 |                   0 |
| Water    |    2 |      3 |     5 |  14.71 |          40 |                  40 |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+-------------+---------------------+

Usage by type (sorted by usage% followed by win% followed by name, if there were ties):

Dark

+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Chien-Pao   |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    2 | Hydreigon   |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    3 | Meowscarada |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    4 | Sableye     |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    5 | Ting-Lu     |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    6 | Skuntank    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Kingambit   |   1 |     50 |    0 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+

Dragon

+------+------------+-----+-------------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon   | Use |   Usage%    | Win% |
+------+------------+-----+-------------+------+
|    1 | Baxcalibur |   3 |         100 |    0 |
|    2 | Cyclizar   |   3 |         100 |    0 |
|    3 | Garchomp   |   3 |         100 |    0 |
|    4 | Dragalge   |   2 | 66.66666667 |    0 |
|    5 | Dragonite  |   2 | 66.66666667 |    0 |
|    6 | Hydreigon  |   2 | 66.66666667 |    0 |
|    7 | Dragapult  |   1 | 33.33333333 |    0 |
|    8 | Flapple    |   1 | 33.33333333 |    0 |
|    9 | Tatsugiri  |   1 | 33.33333333 |    0 |
+------+------------+-----+-------------+------+

Electric

+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Eelektross   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Iron Hands   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Iron Thorns  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Kilowattrel  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Rotom        |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Sandy Shocks |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+

Fairy

+------+--------------+-----+-------------+-------------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use |   Usage%    |    Win%     |
+------+--------------+-----+-------------+-------------+
|    1 | Flutter Mane |   3 |         100 | 33.33333333 |
|    2 | Iron Valiant |   3 |         100 | 33.33333333 |
|    3 | Azumarill    |   2 | 66.66666667 |          50 |
|    4 | Hatterene    |   2 | 66.66666667 |          50 |
|    5 | Klefki       |   2 | 66.66666667 |          50 |
|    6 | Mimikyu      |   1 | 33.33333333 |         100 |
|    7 | Dachsbun     |   1 | 33.33333333 |           0 |
|    8 | Gardevoir    |   1 | 33.33333333 |           0 |
|    9 | Scream Tail  |   1 | 33.33333333 |           0 |
|   10 | Tinkaton     |   1 | 33.33333333 |           0 |
|   11 | Wigglytuff   |   1 | 33.33333333 |           0 |
+------+--------------+-----+-------------+-------------+

Fighting

+------+--------------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |      Pokemon       | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Breloom            |   5 |    100 |   60 |
|    2 | Great Tusk         |   5 |    100 |   60 |
|    3 | Iron Hands         |   5 |    100 |   60 |
|    4 | Iron Valiant       |   5 |    100 |   60 |
|    5 | Quaquaval          |   5 |    100 |   60 |
|    6 | Lucario            |   2 |     40 |  100 |
|    7 | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |   2 |     40 |    0 |
|    8 | Gallade            |   1 |     20 |  100 |
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+------+

Fire

+------+--------------------+-----+--------+-------------+
| Rank |      Pokemon       | Use | Usage% |    Win%     |
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+-------------+
|    1 | Scovillain         |   4 |    100 |          50 |
|    2 | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |   4 |    100 |          50 |
|    3 | Torkoal            |   4 |    100 |          50 |
|    4 | Ceruledge          |   3 |     75 | 66.66666667 |
|    5 | Iron Moth          |   2 |     50 |          50 |
|    6 | Rotom-Heat         |   2 |     50 |          50 |
|    7 | Skeledirge         |   2 |     50 |          50 |
|    8 | Volcarona          |   2 |     50 |          50 |
|    9 | Charizard          |   1 |     25 |           0 |
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+-------------+

Flying

+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Corviknight  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Dragonite    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Iron Jugulis |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Kilowattrel  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Salamence    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Vivillon     |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+

Ghost

+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Dragapult    |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Flutter Mane |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Gholdengo    |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Mimikyu      |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Skeledirge   |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Frosslass    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Polteageist  |   1 |     50 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+

Grass

+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Amoonguss    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Appletun     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Brambleghast |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Breloom      |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Meowscarada  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Rotom-Mow    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+

Ground

+------+--------------+-----+-------------+-------------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use |   Usage%    |    Win%     |
+------+--------------+-----+-------------+-------------+
|    1 | Clodsire     |   3 |         100 | 66.66666667 |
|    2 | Garchomp     |   3 |         100 | 66.66666667 |
|    3 | Great Tusk   |   3 |         100 | 66.66666667 |
|    4 | Iron Treads  |   3 |         100 | 66.66666667 |
|    5 | Ting-Lu      |   3 |         100 | 66.66666667 |
|    6 | Quagsire     |   2 | 66.66666667 |          50 |
|    7 | Sandy Shocks |   1 | 33.33333333 |         100 |
+------+--------------+-----+-------------+-------------+

Ice

+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Abomasnow  |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    2 | Avalugg    |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    3 | Baxcalibur |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    4 | Chien-Pao  |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    5 | Cloyster   |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    6 | Weavile    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Cetitan    |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|    8 | Froslass   |   1 |     50 |    0 |
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+

Poison

+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon  | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Amoonguss |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Clodsire  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Glimmora  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Salazzle  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Skuntank  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Toxapex   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+

Steel

+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Corviknight |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Gholdengo   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Iron Treads |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Kingambit   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Klefki      |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Magnezone   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+

Water

+------+------------+-----+--------+-------------+
| Rank |  Pokemon   | Use | Usage% |    Win%     |
+------+------------+-----+--------+-------------+
|    1 | Cloyster   |   4 |     80 |          25 |
|    2 | Quaquaval  |   4 |     80 |          25 |
|    3 | Pelipper   |   3 |     60 | 66.66666667 |
|    4 | Quagsire   |   3 |     60 | 33.33333333 |
|    5 | Dondozo    |   3 |     60 | 33.33333333 |
|    6 | Toxapex    |   3 |     60 |           0 |
|    7 | Gyarados   |   2 |     40 |          50 |
|    8 | Slowking   |   2 |     40 |          50 |
|    9 | Gastrodon  |   2 |     40 |          50 |
|   10 | Floatzel   |   1 |     20 |         100 |
|   11 | Golduck    |   1 |     20 |         100 |
|   12 | Surskit    |   1 |     20 |         100 |
|   13 | Rotom-Wash |   1 |     20 |           0 |
+------+------------+-----+--------+-------------+

Overall usage:

Expand

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Quaquaval          |    9 |  26.47% |  44.44% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |    8 |  23.53% |  62.50% |
| 2    | Iron Valiant       |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Iron Hands         |    6 |  17.65% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Breloom            |    6 |  17.65% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Garchomp           |    6 |  17.65% |  33.33% |
| 4    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |    6 |  17.65% |  33.33% |
| 8    | Ting-Lu            |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 8    | Flutter Mane       |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 8    | Quagsire           |    5 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Cloyster           |    5 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Baxcalibur         |    5 |  14.71% |  20.00% |
| 13   | Clodsire           |    4 |  11.76% |  75.00% |
| 13   | Skeledirge         |    4 |  11.76% |  75.00% |
| 13   | Chien-Pao          |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Iron Treads        |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Torkoal            |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Scovillain         |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Hydreigon          |    4 |  11.76% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Toxapex            |    4 |  11.76% |  25.00% |
| 21   | Mimikyu            |    3 |   8.82% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Pelipper           |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Gholdengo          |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Dragapult          |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Ceruledge          |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Meowscarada        |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Dondozo            |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Klefki             |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Dragonite          |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Cyclizar           |    3 |   8.82% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Sandy Shocks       |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Kilowattrel        |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Lucario            |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Skuntank           |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Sableye            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Gastrodon          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Slowking           |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Gyarados           |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Volcarona          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Corviknight        |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Rotom-Heat         |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Hatterene          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Azumarill          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Amoonguss          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Iron Moth          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Abomasnow          |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Avalugg            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Froslass           |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Kingambit          |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Dragalge           |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Gallade            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Golduck            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Floatzel           |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Surskit            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Rotom              |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Eelektross         |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Iron Thorns        |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Salazzle           |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Glimmora           |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Vivillon-Fancy     |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Salamence          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Iron Jugulis       |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Weavile            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Polteageist        |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Charizard          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Magnezone          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Tatsugiri          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Flapple            |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Gardevoir          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Appletun           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Rotom-Mow          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Brambleghast       |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Cetitan            |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Dachsbun           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Wigglytuff         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Tinkaton           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |

Team combinations:

Combos of 4

+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 4                                                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk          |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 1    | Iron Hands / Breloom / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk            |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 1    | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Breloom / Great Tusk               |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 1    | Breloom / Quaquaval / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk             |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 1    | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Iron Valiant / Breloom             |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 6    | Iron Treads / Ting-Lu / Clodsire / Great Tusk               |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Iron Treads / Clodsire / Great Tusk / Garchomp              |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Iron Treads / Ting-Lu / Clodsire / Garchomp                 |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Ting-Lu / Clodsire / Great Tusk / Garchomp                  |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Iron Treads / Ting-Lu / Great Tusk / Garchomp               |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Scovillain / Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Ceruledge       |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Breloom / Lucario                  |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Great Tusk / Lucario               |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Iron Valiant / Lucario             |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Quaquaval / Great Tusk / Lucario                  |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Quaquaval / Iron Valiant / Lucario                |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Quaquaval / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario             |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Great Tusk / Breloom / Lucario                 |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Iron Valiant / Breloom / Lucario               |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario            |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario               |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Skeledirge / Flutter Mane / Gholdengo / Mimikyu             |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Skeledirge / Flutter Mane / Gholdengo / Dragapult           |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Skeledirge / Gholdengo / Mimikyu / Dragapult                |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Skeledirge / Flutter Mane / Mimikyu / Dragapult             |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Flutter Mane / Gholdengo / Mimikyu / Dragapult              |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Chien-Pao / Ting-Lu / Sableye / Meowscarada                 |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Chien-Pao / Ting-Lu / Meowscarada               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Chien-Pao / Sableye / Meowscarada               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Chien-Pao / Ting-Lu / Sableye                   |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Ting-Lu / Sableye / Meowscarada                 |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Treads / Quagsire / Clodsire / Great Tusk              |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Treads / Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Clodsire                 |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Treads / Quagsire / Clodsire / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Clodsire / Great Tusk                  |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Quagsire / Clodsire / Great Tusk / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Clodsire / Garchomp                    |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Treads / Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Great Tusk               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Treads / Quagsire / Great Tusk / Garchomp              |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Treads / Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Great Tusk / Garchomp                  |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Quaquaval / Quagsire / Slowking / Cloyster                  |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Quaquaval / Quagsire / Gyarados / Cloyster                  |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Skeledirge / Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Scovillain      |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Volcarona / Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Scovillain       |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Scovillain / Torkoal / Rotom-Heat / Ceruledge               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Rotom-Heat / Ceruledge       |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Rotom-Heat / Scovillain      |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Scovillain / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Rotom-Heat / Ceruledge    |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Klefki / Hatterene            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Valiant / Klefki / Azumarill / Hatterene               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Azumarill / Hatterene         |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Iron Valiant / Klefki / Azumarill / Flutter Mane            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Flutter Mane / Klefki / Azumarill / Hatterene               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Moth / Scovillain       |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Ceruledge / Torkoal / Iron Moth / Scovillain                |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Torkoal / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Moth / Ceruledge        |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Ceruledge / Iron Moth / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Scovillain     |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Avalugg / Baxcalibur / Chien-Pao / Abomasnow                |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Hands / Great Tusk      |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk    |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Quaquaval / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Great Tusk       |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Hands / Iron Valiant    |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Quaquaval / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Hands       |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Breloom / Quaquaval / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant     |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Great Tusk    |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Iron Valiant / Quaquaval / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Great Tusk  |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Iron Hands / Quaquaval / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant  |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Quaquaval / Quagsire / Toxapex / Cloyster                   |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Quaquaval / Dondozo / Toxapex / Cloyster                    |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Garchomp               |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Baxcalibur / Dragalge / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Baxcalibur / Cyclizar / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Baxcalibur / Dragalge / Dragonite / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragalge / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Dragonite / Dragalge / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Dragonite / Cyclizar / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Dragalge / Cyclizar / Garchomp                  |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Dragonite / Dragalge / Garchomp                  |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Hydreigon / Baxcalibur / Dragalge / Dragonite               |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Hydreigon / Baxcalibur / Dragonite               |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Hydreigon / Baxcalibur / Dragalge                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragalge / Dragonite                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 12   | Cyclizar / Hydreigon / Dragonite / Dragalge                 |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |

Combos of 5

+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 5                                                             | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Breloom / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Iron Hands / Quaquaval            |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 2    | Ting-Lu / Great Tusk / Iron Treads / Clodsire / Garchomp                |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 3    | Breloom / Great Tusk / Lucario / Iron Hands / Quaquaval                 |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Breloom / Iron Valiant / Lucario / Iron Hands / Quaquaval               |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario / Iron Hands / Quaquaval            |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario / Breloom / Quaquaval               |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Breloom / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario / Iron Hands              |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Skeledirge / Flutter Mane / Mimikyu / Gholdengo / Dragapult             |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Chien-Pao / Ting-Lu / Sableye / Hydreigon / Meowscarada                 |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Great Tusk / Iron Treads / Clodsire                |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Quagsire / Great Tusk / Iron Treads / Clodsire / Garchomp               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Iron Treads / Clodsire / Garchomp                  |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Great Tusk / Clodsire / Garchomp                   |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Great Tusk / Iron Treads / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Ceruledge / Scovillain / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Torkoal / Rotom-Heat      |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Azumarill / Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Klefki / Hatterene            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Scovillain / Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Moth / Torkoal / Ceruledge       |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Iron Hands / Breloom   |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Great Tusk / Iron Hands / Breloom / Quaquaval      |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Breloom / Quaquaval    |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Iron Hands / Breloom / Quaquaval    |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Iron Hands / Quaquaval |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Dragalge / Hydreigon / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Hydreigon / Garchomp                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragalge / Hydreigon / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Dragalge / Garchomp                 |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Cyclizar / Dragonite / Dragalge / Hydreigon / Garchomp                  |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Cyclizar / Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Dragalge / Hydreigon                |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |

Combos of 6

+ ---- + --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 6                                                                       | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Breloom / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Lucario / Iron Hands / Quaquaval            |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Ting-Lu / Quagsire / Great Tusk / Iron Treads / Clodsire / Garchomp               |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire / Iron Valiant / Great Tusk / Iron Hands / Breloom / Quaquaval |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 1    | Baxcalibur / Dragonite / Cyclizar / Dragalge / Hydreigon / Garchomp               |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |

 

[TheWyvernKing]

is pretty fun ngl, made some working comps with it on Ground though the teams I like the most don't run it. That being said it's scarf set is surprisingly more viable than it's been in past gens, at least in my opinion. Even with the crazy busted speed tiers we see at the fastest point with mons like Chien Pao, Flutter, Meow, etc, Krook still hits a surprisingly solid speedpoint when you look at the meta. Alot of +1's/Scarfs fall in the 85-90speed bracket. Scarf Great Tusk, +1Baxcalibur, Quaquaval, and Rotom, as well as some less notable stuff like hera. All the while we have far fewer mons between the 100-110 speed point, with the legendary sword ponies out, and a total of 10 possible base 100 speed mons if you include every Tauros form, Voltorb, and Slaking. Krook can snowball surprisingly quick and it feels like there is less counterplay than there's been in past metas for it. As even in Gen 5-6 Krook as a Moxie Scarf I remember being less effective. I will attribute this to the lack of bulky mons in the tier.

Despite making this post I'll also still point out that it's still Krookodile, and especially with Ground which I consider a top 3 types you wouldn't be able to cover as much in the meta with a Krook as you would another mon such as Chomp. It'll end up fighting for a spot with mons such as Great Tusk, and from a composition perspective running a Krookodile will in all likelyhood decrease counterplay to one type or another. Whether it's Fighting, Fairy, Water, or even less ability to handle bulk up sets. Anyhow I like crocodiles, Krook is cool, there is no bias in this post.

 

[wkxkevin]

is pretty fun ngl, made some working comps with it on Ground though the teams I like the most don't run it. That being said it's scarf set is surprisingly more viable than it's been in past gens, at least in my opinion. Even with the crazy busted speed tiers we see at the fastest point with mons like Chien Pao, Flutter, Meow, etc, Krook still hits a surprisingly solid speedpoint when you look at the meta. Alot of +1's/Scarfs fall in the 85-90speed bracket. Scarf Great Tusk, +1Baxcalibur, Quaquaval, and Rotom, as well as some less notable stuff like hera. All the while we have far fewer mons between the 100-110 speed point, with the legendary sword ponies out, and a total of 10 possible base 100 speed mons if you include every Tauros form, Voltorb, and Slaking. Krook can snowball surprisingly quick and it feels like there is less counterplay than there's been in past metas for it. As even in Gen 5-6 Krook as a Moxie Scarf I remember being less effective. I will attribute this to the lack of bulky mons in the tier.

Despite making this post I'll also still point out that it's still Krookodile, and especially with Ground which I consider a top 3 types you wouldn't be able to cover as much in the meta with a Krook as you would another mon such as Chomp. It'll end up fighting for a spot with mons such as Great Tusk, and from a composition perspective running a Krookodile will in all likelyhood decrease counterplay to one type or another. Whether it's Fighting, Fairy, Water, or even less ability to handle bulk up sets. Anyhow I like crocodiles, Krook is cool, there is no bias in this post.

I feel like all the upsides are great but stacking types with Ting-Lu is not the best and if you are replacing krook with Ting-Lu or maybe as you said, replace it with great tusk that's flat out not worth it. Both provide tools that are must haves for ground. Ting-Lu is one of the best tanks in the game while Great Tusk is the only viable rapid spinner outside iron treads and even if treads is the spinner, krook's advantages cannot surpass the greatness that is fighting ground dual stab.

 

[Ida]

Thank cha! It's so nice to see someone appreciate my favourite type.

Cha right, poison does have some nice toys. We've got three of the best defensive Mon in toxapex, ammungus and clodshire, and the massive loss of hazard removal makes toxic spikes even scarier. Iron moth is a great sweeper if given an opening and glimmora is a great toxic setter with corrosion or toxic debris and finally she's got an exclusive rapid spin.

The problem is a matter of comparison. There's a number of very powerful new Mon added. Iron moth is good, but it's overshadowed by the other paradox Mon. Dark gets the ruin Mon, and ghost got a big buff. Don't forget the healing nerf and losing scald on toxapex limits defensive and balanced plays. Poison has good Mon, but the choices are limited when compared to other types.

Speaking of home, what Mon are everyone looking forward too? Do we know when it's being released and what Mon we're getting?

As far as poison goes, we're getting loa sneasler and overqwil. Sneasler is an amazing physical sweeper and dire claw looks amazing, while overqwil looks to be an amazing dark type, which poison sorely needed.

honestly i just miss weezing :(

overqwil looks neat but i'm pretty stoked to test if eviolite h-qwilfish will be anything good. i think eviolite makes it so its defenses are better than overqwil's. sneasler is gonna kick toxicroak to the curb, but i'm very excited for it. giving poison some more offensive pressure is always nice to see. i want to mess around with sneasler, iron moth, and grafaiai on one team

 

[Rio Vidal]

Locking the discussion thread for the duration of the Flutter Mane suspect test!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-monotype-suspect-1-flutter-mane.3714066/