Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #1: Flutter Mane

[maroon]

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Hey everyone, the council has unanimously decided that the first suspect of the generation is Flutter Mane. It has cemented itself as an offensive staple for Fairy and Ghost teams due to its blistering offensive stats, strong unresisted STAB attacks, and great coverage. Additionally, Flutter Mane's ability to tank strong Special Attacks like Sandy Shock's Thunderbolt and Hydreigon's Dark Pulse prevent it from being reliably revenge killed by Special Attackers. Flutter Mane can use its coverage to target specific Pokemon its STAB moves can't OHKO such as Corviknight with Thunderbolt, Gastrodon with Energy Ball, Power Gem for Volcarona, etc. This makes defensively checking Flutter Mane near impossible outside of exceptions such as Specially Defensive Clodsire and Blissey, which still need to be careful of Psyshock.

However, Flutter Mane does have an abysmal HP and Defense stat allowing it to be easily revenge killed by physical Choice Scarf users such as Great Tusk and Meowsacarada, naturally faster Pokemon such as Dragapult and Barraskewda, or priority such as Kingambit, Mimikyu, Chien-Pao, and Scizor. Every type has access to at least one viable offensive Pokemon that meet these criteria. Due to Flutter Mane's offensive prowess but rather noticeable defensive weakness it has been a hot topic of debate in the Monotype community, which is why the council is deciding to suspect Flutter Mane.

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Flutter Mane in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] Monotype ladder in which Flutter Mane will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: FMSG9 in order for your account to qualify. Tagging Kris to implement this on the ladder!

Acceptable:
FMSG9 Maroon

Unacceptable:
Maroon FMSG9

The requirement for qualification is at least 80% GXE and at least 45 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks until Saturday January 21st @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -5). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Flutter Mane will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Flutter Mane suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.

 

[Lordadripain]

Hello. I'm an active Monotype trainer in Showdown, so in Gen 9. I totally agree Flutter Mane should be banned. It's too OP and even more in my case due to I'm a focused Fighting type trainer. I can manage almost every fight, even if it's against types super effective to mine (such as Psychic, Flying, Fairy...), but when there's a Flutter Mane I already know I'm going to lose before beginning. Please, ban Flutter Mane or create 2 separated Monotype branches one with Flutter Mane and the other one without it. Please, how can I vote to effectively make Flutter Mane a suspect?

 

[TTK]

Flutter Mane is an interesting one for me. A mon with these stats, insane dual STAB and coverage to go along with it, it should be a mon that we should ban but it's just not the case in my eyes.

Flutter Mane's most dangerous set is by far Specs post Booster Energy ban. The raw power that Specs can output just nukes everything assuming it clicks the right move. Mons that would otherwise check it like Clodsire will just drop to Psyshock, Blissey is 3hkod by Psyshock and forced to recover the next turn, which the Mane player can easily take advantage of with teammates, even Spdef Corviknight is wary of Thunderbolt. Unfortunate thing is, Choiced sets are inherently bound by the weakness of prediction. It's on the person using it that makes it super effective, now I won't sit here and say it's hard to see the incoming Clodsire on Flutter's STABs and you just click Psyshock, knowing it's coming but the opponent also has prediction on their side, if they predict Psyshock is coming, they can just go their physical wall or a mon that they on their team that resists Psychic-type moves (Ground has Ting-Lu, Iron Treads. Poison has Skuntank). The way of prediction is something that isn't broken at all, it's part of the game. But is Flutter Mane unhealthy then? If its strongest set is not broken? Even with these questions, I think to myself, still the answer is no and Flutter Mane is kept in check by offence, the thing it seemingly dominates according to the people that want it gone.

Priority is a huge issue for this mon. Moves like Ice Shard from Chien-Pao, Bullet Punch from Scizor, Sucker Punch from Darks, Shadow Sneak from Mimikyu and Ceruledge, all destroy Flutter Mane. Other than Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak, which are weaknesses anyway, Ice Shard from Banded Pao literally OHKOs Flutter after rocks since Flutter Mane has negative physical bulk and it is thanks to its low physical bulk and vulnerability to common priority moves, Flutter Mane is too easily forced out. It doesn't help that Ghost and Dark are some of the best typings in the meta and are relatively common. Dark has the Sucker Punches and Ice Shard Chien-Pao, Ghost has the Shadow Sneakers and Dragapult, the only viable mon faster than Flutter Mane unless the latter is Scarfed. It oftens feels as you're playing, Flutter Mane is not some sort of massive creature that has the metagame within its clutches. Even outside of those 2 typings, every type has adapted/found a way of handling it. Bug has Bullet Punch Scizor. Ground has Iron Treads, Clodsire, spdef Ting-Lu with Heavy Slam. Even mid typings like Electric have AV Iron Hands and AV Eelektross, mons that are not just being ran because they check Flutter Mane but because they are good on their typings, just to list a few examples.

Overall, Flutter Mane is one of the strongest mons in the Monotype meta. It's fast, strong, has good coverage to bypass a good number of its defensive answers like Psyshock, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball and even Power Gem. Unfortunately, outside of Specs imo, I don't think any of its other sets are that strong. Scarf is fine but lacks power and again, relies on prediction. Its defensive answers handle it a lot easier. CM 3 attacks is prone to easily being revenge killed by any viable physical scarfer and Sub + CM is better, but whatever 2 attacks you rely on, you're either not running Psyshock or any other coverage option so there's still good defensive options that handle you (Clodsire, Spdef Pex etc) and if you're not behind a sub, Dragapult, scarfers, Disguise Mimikyu do a good job of keeping it in check. In addition to its vulnerability to priority, I cannot say I would want Flutter Mane banned from the tier so when I get reqs, I'll be voting NO BAN.

Thanks for reading.

 

[wkxkevin]

I feel like priority is a huge reason why flutter mane feels nowhere near as bad in Mono than in OU. Ghost is not that bulky of a type and the best types in the game a great matchup against it: Dark and Ground. So here is a list of priority moves that each type can run to viably deal with flutter(ergo I will not include: first impression, feint, quick attack, mach punch, vaccum wave, extreme speed because those are either immune/4x resist)

: (sucker punch), (bullet punch),

: legit most dark types other than maybe , , and has sucker punch, (ice shard), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

: (ice shard), (sucker punch, I'll talk about pult later)

: (sucker punch)

: (aqua jet), (sucker punch *niche, why not twave it), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

: (aqua jet), (bullet punch), (succer punch, bullet punch), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

: (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (gale wings)

: (gale wings)

: (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (sucker punch), (sucker punch)

: (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (sucker punch)

: None

: legit almost every viable ice type has ice shard, (sucker punch)

: None

: None

: (shadow sneak)

: /(accelerock)

: (sucker punch), (bullet punch)

: (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (ice shard)

First thing is first, pult and barraskewda both outspeed flutter. This means that they can afford not to run any priority to kill flutter. Weather abusers, specifically rain and snow, both can outspeed as well.

Looking at the list, it's it evident that electric, flying, ground, normal, poison, psychic, and rock will don't have enough priority users.
However, as Wyvern has mentioned, electric can run AV iron hands and AV electross, ground can run bulky ting-lu, clodsire, iron treads, and poison can just the run combo of clod + dark poison type.
This leaves us with flying, normal, psychic, and rock. First, all 4 types sucks. Second, both gallade and lycanroc-dusk are great and very often used on psychic and rock respectively, neither of which compromise their moveset by including shadow sneak/accelerock.
On flying, you have spdef coviknight which can help you pivot around a bit and eventually let talon get in but it's still risky.
On normal, well, you can run prankster t-wave grafaiai, and you are immune to all ghost moves.
This also to mention pranster users like grafaiai, grimmsnarl, klefki, sableye, etc that can force flutter out.

This means the only types that are truly F***ed by flutter is normal and flying and perhaps to a minor extent psychic and rock, which isn't enough to constitute a ban. As such I will vote NO BAN

 

[Neko]

I feel like priority is a huge reason why flutter mane feels nowhere near as bad in Mono than in OU. Ghost is not that bulky of a type and the best types in the game a great matchup against it: Dark and Ground. So here is a list of priority moves that each type can run to viably deal with flutter(ergo I will not include: first impression, feint, quick attack, mach punch, vaccum wave, extreme speed because those are either immune/4x resist)

: (sucker punch), (bullet punch),

: legit most dark types other than maybe , , and has sucker punch, (ice shard), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

: (ice shard), (sucker punch, I'll talk about pult later)

: (sucker punch)

: (aqua jet), (sucker punch *niche, why not twave it), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

: (aqua jet), (bullet punch), (succer punch, bullet punch), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

: (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (gale wings)

: (gale wings)

: (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (sucker punch), (sucker punch)

: (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (sucker punch)

: None

: legit almost every viable ice type has ice shard, (sucker punch)

: None

: None

: (shadow sneak)

: /(accelerock)

: (sucker punch), (bullet punch)

: (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (ice shard)

First thing is first, pult and barraskewda both outspeed flutter. This means that they can afford not to run any priority to kill flutter. Weather abusers, specifically rain and snow, both can outspeed as well.

Looking at the list, it's it evident that electric, flying, ground, normal, poison, psychic, and rock will don't have enough priority users.
However, as Wyvern has mentioned, electric can run AV iron hands and AV electross, ground can run bulky ting-lu, clodsire, iron treads, and poison can just the run combo of clod + dark poison type.
This leaves us with flying, normal, psychic, and rock. First, all 4 types sucks. Second, both gallade and lycanroc-dusk are great and very often used on psychic and rock respectively, neither of which compromise their moveset by including shadow sneak/accelerock.
On flying, you have spdef coviknight which can help you pivot around a bit and eventually let talon get in but it's still risky.
On normal, well, you can run prankster t-wave grafaiai, and you are immune to all ghost moves.
This also to mention pranster users like grafaiai, grimmsnarl, klefki, sableye, etc that can force flutter out.

This means the only types that are truly F***ed by flutter is normal and flying and perhaps to a minor extent psychic and rock, which isn't enough to constitute a ban. As such I will vote NO BAN

I'm sorry but you might be forgetting that Fluttermane has access to Screens on both types it can be on, making it impossible to actually KO with priority [aside from infil shadow sneak/Scizor BP iirc]. In terms of hazard control, Ghost has access to Brambleghast, which can also switch into the myriad of priorities (bar Ice Shard anyway), aside from Spiritomb and Skeledirge being able to handle and burn away the rest, while Fairy can also donate Spikes to the opposing team and make Mimikyu + Flutt act as a spinblocker. Its also notable that you can't remove Ghost's Spikes, due to everyone spinblocking + Gholdengo [if you have Defog, anyway]. It feels weird to just consider the mon "as is itself" rather than as a part of a team.

There's also the issue of its ability to run a lot of sets. Wanting to Sucker Punch it? Oops, it just subbed or CM'ed and you're one step closer to gg. Choice Specs or Choice Scarf makes a lot of difference if you want to pick who to sack to get your Revenge killer / Bulky Pokemon in. Furthermore, Flutter Mane is supported by strong wallbreakers, such as Hatterene + Iron Valiant on Fairy, and Gholdengo + Dragapult, making it unlikely that your defensive check to Flutter Mane would ever be at full. Prediction imo feels like a not so good word choice for Flutt, as whatever it does, it will almost always favor the Flutter Mane user. You still do notable damage to your intermediary wall, forcing your opponent to go into their main check later [which the Flutt user can see coming and click the appropriate button].

Lastly, Speedtiers. 405 is too fast; Being only killable normally by Choice Specs Dragapult [Scarf won't, lets not do Scarf Phantom Force please, Pult will die. Chien Pao is a speedtie.] means that you have to slap a Scarf in if you want to revenge kill it without priorities [which said priorities fail when you are under screenies, and the scarfer may fail if under screenies (Usually not, though)...]. This said scarfer is only very likely one mon, and will be subjected to getting hurt by pointy entry hazards and to deal with the opposing team's out of control setupper as needed. This differentiates itself from threats such as Kyurem and Tapu Lele [in SS] or Iron Valiant [in SV] that can also be called very scary with very good coverage, as there's a lot to outspeed and kill them before they become too scary.

Due to these reasons, I'm inclined to voting BAN on it if I get reqs. Thankie for reading

 

[Aqua Jet]

Hello. I'm an active Monotype trainer in Showdown, so in Gen 9. I totally agree Flutter Mane should be banned. It's too OP and even more in my case due to I'm a focused Fighting type trainer. I can manage almost every fight, even if it's against types super effective to mine (such as Psychic, Flying, Fairy...), but when there's a Flutter Mane I already know I'm going to lose before beginning.

Saying "Fighting will have problems against the Fairy-type" is a bad argument. Rillaboom gave Water, a top type in Generation 8, significant problems because there really isn't much to deter it from clicking Grassy Glide with the exception of Sap Sipper Azumarill, a set usually only seen on Stall or Semi-Stall teams. But for the record, Fighting-type teams do actually have counterplay to Flutter Mane in the form of Assault Vest Iron Hands, which has an 87.5% chance to OHKO Flutter Mane through Reflect making it a check to this Flutter Mane set. You could also experiment with Roseli Berry Iron Hands for Flutter Mane, which is 2HKO'd at best by Choice Specs Flutter Mane.

Unfortunate thing is, Choiced sets are inherently bound by the weakness of prediction. It's on the person using it that makes it super effective, now I won't sit here and say it's hard to see the incoming Clodsire on Flutter's STABs and you just click Psyshock, knowing it's coming but the opponent also has prediction on their side, if they predict Psyshock is coming, they can just go their physical wall or a mon that they on their team that resists Psychic-type moves (Ground has Ting-Lu, Iron Treads. Poison has Skuntank)

Yes, while choice sets are inherently prediction-reliant, what happens if it's not Choice Specs? What if it's Calm Mind + Substitute? You just accidentally gave Flutter Mane the ability to set up a Calm Mind and now it has the power of being Choice Specs while not bound by being choice-locked.

Neko answered the rest of your points well above so I encourage you to read that post as well.

As for my stance on Flutter Mane, I think that Flutter Mane should be banned at this time.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I feel like I see discussion in here about the sub-cm set as a counterpoint to priority such as sucker, even though prior to this thread I'd only really seen sub-cm dismissed as an inferior set on Flutter. Gonna be real with y'all, the sub cm set is what I consider the worst and generally easiest flutter set to get rid of. It needs life orb to do damage, and from my experience facing the set, almost every time I've played it I would've been in a worse position had they chosen a specs instead. Flutter already doesn't have great longevity, and especially in a hazard stack meta with it's awful physical bulk, the added damage from Life Orb + Sub makes it go down real fast. Sub CM is a set designed to punish bulkier and more passive answers, but having only 2 attacking moves creates many more defensive answers that would otherwise struggle with it's coverage. Clodsire wouldn't have to worry about Psyshock, counters such as Special Defensive Iron Treads would be able to switchin pretty free as Flutter would need both a Sub + CM boost up to 1v1, even if bulky water loses a mon they for sure would be able to revenge immediately after with Quaquaval.

The only type I really see having such a problem with Sub CM Flutter is Grass, as the ability to check with Sucker wouldn't be able to work, and there are passive mons in grass's defensive comp Flutter can take advantage of. That being said, Grass is already a type recognized for it's trouble with Flutter.

I bring this up because the point of this suspect, in my POV at least, is largely founded as a result of the Choice set rather than the Sub-CM one, which I don't see nearly as dangerous in the meta. Currently leaning Do Not Ban as there is plenty of counterplay, and majority of types can build with answers to Flutter while still having a viable place in the meta.

 

[FYBIRR]

I want to start by saying Flutter Mane should have been banned a long time ago. It has a base 135 in 3 stats, and once I saw this I knew it was going to be banned almost immediately from a million different metagames. While it is useful for checking other stuff popular in monotype, it's access to Substitute and Calm Mind with its base 135 Special Attack AND Special Defense makes it a menace on ghost and sometimes fairy teams. Despite lacking in physical defense and HP, it mostly makes up for it with its speed and special attack, speed tying with the box legendaries Koraidon and Miraidon (despite not being in the metagame I like to bring it up), and being able to OHKO almost everything in the metagame after a few Calm Minds.

This thing has very few setbacks. Here are some:

Physical attackers - Flutter Mane has a base 55 physical defense, basically making it Kingambit and sometimes Chien-Pao food (if Chien-Pao wins the speed tie if that's that case). It almost makes up for this in speed and special attack, but then comes the next setback.
Priority Moves - Most priority moves used here are physical, and like I said before, Flutter Mane doesn't do well against physical moves.
S C I Z O R - I know this is entirely opinion-based but i personally feel Scizor is one of Flutter Manes worst nightmares. I don't even want to talk about how many times I lost my Flutter Mane to a Scizor, thinking if it used X-Scissor 4 times in a row why would it use Bullet Punch now? I seriously never learn my lesson. Priority moves and physical attacks are bad for Flutter Mane, but take a Pokémon that has STAB priority with a high attack stat + Technician, and you have Flutter Manes worst nightmare.

Testing out Flutter Mane myself on a ghost team, I found myself getting into the 1300 really quickly on my alt. Here's the set I used just for everyone to see.

Flutter Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Moonblast
- Substitute

Anyways, Flutter Mane is clearly too broken to stay in Monotype. Even though my ghost teams will never be the same without it, I vote to ban Flutter Mane.

Edit: Looking at the setbacks and going back for more rounds of Monotype with Flutter Mane, I realized how many of these I find in the high ladder and can't seem to win as many matches, so I'm changing my vote to do not ban Flutter Mane.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I want to start by saying Flutter Mane should have been banned a long time ago. It has a base 135 in 3 stats, and once I saw this I knew it was going to be banned almost immediately from a million different metagames. While it is useful for checking other stuff popular in monotype, it's access to Substitute and Calm Mind with its base 135 Special Attack AND Special Defense makes it a menace on ghost and sometimes fairy teams.

Testing out Flutter Mane myself on a ghost team, I found myself getting into the 1300 really quickly on my alt. Here's the set I used just for everyone to see.

Flutter Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Moonblast
- Substitute

Anyways, Flutter Mane is clearly too broken to stay in Monotype. Even though my ghost teams will never be the same without it, I vote to ban Flutter Mane.

Don't want to come across as mean in anyway, but getting substitute and calm mind doesn't make a mon broken, neither does getting to 1300 really quickly. I got 1300 with a Krookodile team pretty quickly, that doesn't make Krook broken. You essentially summarized what caused Week 1 Flutter syndrome before tera got banned and people adapted to it, it's statline.

However, what we consider for banning a mon is how it actually performs. Sub CM in particular on Flutter just isn't what makes it dangerous, limiting coverage to just stab means it has more pokemon that can answer it pretty reliably, and in general it wants the immediate damage. Specs set with Power Gem can be an issue to fire since it grabs the sun speed boost, Psyshock can get around common counters such as Clodsire, Grass and Electric coverage can make the Water MU rely more on 50/50 predictions. I still think though that Flutter does not deserve a ban, without terra or booster energy it hasn't been nearly as dangerous, and the "substitute set" completely seems like an argument created to encourage a ban. The only time I'd ever really seen it on ladder was lower ladder when starting a new run, usually it phases out completely by 14-1500, and when I do run into it I'm always left with the impression that a specs would've been more dangerous.

 

[GKrt Ives]

I'm really surprised to see Flutter Mane being on suspect, people here know what I really wanted to see on suspect and being banned (ahem, Chien Pao), but ok, let's discuss about it:

Some people here just said the reasons I totally agree that she is not banworthy, like her HP and physical defense, her weaknesses to pretty much almost all priority moves, and being not so versatile on it sets, onky be really good as a specs user, and morr or less a good scarf user, but I will add somethings that wasn't mentioned.

First: She is supported on Fairy with screens, but not on Ghost, so, Gimmighoul and Dragapult with screens? Really? I really wanted to see someone using it, because since day one, I NEVER saw.

Her ability in both types is useless. I mean, if you play with it against other type that isn't fire (as much it is a sun team, as I see every fire team on ladder being), it will not even trigger. Why I'm talking about this? Well, some people here just said about it being banned on other metagames, but they didn't say that these metagames it is banned, they DIDN'T BAN BOOSTER ENERGY. You can pretty much still use Iron Bundle with Booster Energy in OU for example, like we did before on Monotype.

There is a lot of special walls on our metagame, really,
Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Iron Hands (even being weak against fairy), Toxapex, Iron Treads, Grimmsnarl just to tell some.

I vote do not ban it.

 

[Kev]

I personally am voting DO NOT BAN because Flutter Mane has been pretty underwhelming following the Booster Energy ban. There is a reason it went from being 1 vote from a quick ban to being very far as the metagame continues to develop. It would be ludicrous to pretend like Flutter Mane isn't a very strong, threatening Pokemon that is one of the best in the metagame. However, it just does not stand out - it does not restrict teambuilding by forcing you to build for it and does not have an offensive presence. I'll list out some of the reasons below:

1. Abysmal Physical Defense and HP + Increased Physical Priority Distribution

While Flutter Mane might have some of the scariest offensive stats with a 135 SpA and Spe, and an impressive SpD of 135 as well, its physical side is incredibly low and its HP contributes to its mediocre bulk. This makes it very vulnerable to any faster physical Scarf user or a Physical priority move that isn't Fighting- or Normal-Type, of which there are a plethora of options. This makes revenge killing or forcing out Flutter Mane fairly simple.

2. Requires running a wide range of coverage - or it fails to break many things

Flutter Mane has a wide range of coverage moves which allows it to threaten any and everything - but it can only do so by having all of them at the same time. This is a crucial distinction for Flutter Mane from another threat like Iron Bundle - whose dual STAB does the job of breaking down essentially every defensive core. Flutter Mane's STAB is definitely scary but it requires certain coverage moves to make a dent in some of the best Special Defensive mons in the tier like Clodsire.

3. It only works best when Choice locked which can be fairly predictable

For Flutter Mane to really be a threat, it needs Choice Specs to provide it with offensive presence. This opens it up to being revenge killed by many Scarf users and being handled by some defensive cores with fairly straightforward predictions. It is also a decent Choice Scarf user but then it lacks the offensive power to break. Moreover, being restricted to a Choice item prevents running Substitute to avoid Sucker Punch.

4. Calm Mind is not a great set

I see a lot of people use "but what if it's CM" or "CM beats x" but those arguments fall flat with CM being not too effective. While it may get a win from surprise factor, or beat some types - it ends up getting handled well by many types. First of all, there is the cost/benefit of running 3 attacks + CM vs Substitute. If it runs Substitute, it only has two slots for moves which limits the coverage it uses which forces you to pick what you lose to. As for 3 attacks, it opens it to easily being status'd by the defensive Pokemon that it would CM on (only ones it can realistically set up on because of mediocre bulk). There is also just the aspect of still being vulnerable to the same Scarf users and priority that the Specs set is, so you end up breaking less while still being forced out / losing to the same stuff. I've seen Screens support being brought up, but that's fairly irrelevant. That may be true on Fairy, but Screens on Ghost is not nearly as good nor likely. Also, even with that support it won't be able to take much advantage of it because ultimately its bulk is not great.

5. Essentially all types have natural answers to it

By natural answers, I mean that the Pokemon would be on the team anyways. I've never experienced building any team and having to think: "What do I need to add for Flutter Mane?" The reason is that the answer is already there on the team - the right defensive mons are already there, the right Scarf users or priority users are already present for other things. The only thing I can think of on top of my head is that Dragapult can be opened up to running something besides Choice Scarf. There's bound to be some types that are gonna struggle as is with any strong Pokemon, but it's very insignificant in the grand scheme of the tier.

I won't go into more semantics, I think Toy Time King covered the topic very well. Overall, Flutter Mane is a really strong Pokemon, there's no denying that, but it fails at completely flipping battles in its favour. It is not overly oppressive and does not restrict the builder. So once again, I will be voting for and hoping to see a Do Not Ban verdict.

Also, as a side note, I've seen some complaints about doing a suspect when Home is coming. I just want to remind people that we are tiering the current metagame - not a future one. When Home does come, if this does get banned, it may be unbanned for the fresh metagame. Thought it was important to remind people of that at least, so that they do not let Home impact their decisions for this test. Focus on how you think Flutter Mane is right now.

 

[Aqua Jet]

Her ability in both types is useless. I mean, if you play with it against other type that isn't fire (as much it is a sun team, as I see every fire team on ladder being), it will not even trigger. Why I'm talking about this? Well, some people here just said about it being banned on other metagames, but they didn't say that these metagames it is banned, they DIDN'T BAN BOOSTER ENERGY. You can pretty much still use Iron Bundle with Booster Energy in OU for example, like we did before on Monotype.

I do not think this is a good argument re: if Flutter Mane is broken, because many Pokemon are good without their abilities. Zarude was a top 1 Pokemon in RarelyUsed before it rose to UnderUsed in Generation 8. Keldeo is a great Pokemon on many Water-type teams until the introduction of Urshifu-RS, despite Justified being pretty useless on a special attacker. Zygarde-10% was suspected and banned from Generation 8 RarelyUsed despite its ability, Aura Break, being useless. I could go on with many more examples, but I think you get the point. A Pokemon does not need to have a good ability to be deemed good or broken.

Physical priority move that isn't Fighting- or Normal-Type, of which there are a plethora of options

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
This is (probably) one of the strongest priority moves against Flutter Mane that isn't Bullet Punch or Sucker Punch, and it can't even secure an OHKO on it (before Stealth Rock, it does after Stealth Rock damage). It, like most other priority options, also falls flat on its face when Flutter Mane is behind Reflect which can be set by Grimmsnarl, even with Stealth Rock up (252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain through Reflect: 112-132 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, (252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 412-486 (132.4 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Flutter Mane's STAB is definitely scary but it requires certain coverage moves to make a dent in some of the best Special Defensive mons in the tier like Clodsire.

I disagree with this point. Choice Specs Flutter Mane 3HKOs Clodsire (252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 145-172 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Black Sludge recovery, I use Spikes because Froslass and Klefki are available on their respective types), meaning that it fails to consistently counter it with just one layer of spikes up, assuming that Clodsire is holding Black Sludge. Should it be holding Heavy-Duty Boots, Flutter Mane still has a 82.5% chance to 3HKO it. (252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 145-172 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 82.5% chance to 3HKO. At this point, you could argue "that you could just switch in Ting-Lu", assuming the Clodsire is on a Ground team. However, that presents its own issue, that Clodsire is now significantly worn down and Flutter Mane can more easily pressure it in the future since now it can't even check Flutter Mane unless it uses Recover, which is hard to do.
I do acknowledge your next point of Flutter Mane being restricted to running a Choice item and how it hates being choice-locked though, since admittedly if the Flutter Mane user uses Shadow Ball and Ting-Lu comes in the Flutter Mane user isn't in a great position assuming they are using Ghost.


In any case, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, as it is always interesting to see the perspective of a top Monotype player.

 

[GKrt Ives]

I do not think this is a good argument re: if Flutter Mane is broken, because many Pokemon are good without their abilities. Zarude was a top 1 Pokemon in RarelyUsed before it rose to UnderUsed in Generation 8. Keldeo is a great Pokemon on many Water-type teams until the introduction of Urshifu-RS, despite Justified being pretty useless on a special attacker. Zygarde-10% was suspected and banned from Generation 8 RarelyUsed despite its ability, Aura Break, being useless. I could go on with many more examples, but I think you get the point. A Pokemon does not need to have a good ability to be deemed good or broken.

That wasn't an argument though. I'm just explaining my point of something about its ability said above, of her ability being broken with booster energy on other metagames. And about Booster Energy, it being banned was the reason I said before in anothet thread, that Flutter Mane doesn't need to be banned, as Iron Valiant shouldn't too for example, because they aren't that strong without Booster Energy. So just needed to ban the item, not the mons. I didn't say a Pokémon need to have a good ability to be broken... Read it again...

 

[ken]

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

You’d click Wave Crash in rain, since you outspeed both scarf and any other item, making this calc misleading at best, as is the ajet through reflect.

 

[Aqua Jet]

You’d click Wave Crash in rain, since you outspeed both scarf and any other item, making this calc misleading at best, as is the ajet through reflect.

The point of the calc was to demonstrate that a strong priority move such as Floatzel's STAB rain-boosted Aqua Jet falls is unable to guarantee a KO on Flutter Mane, not to say that Flutter Mane can 1v1 Floatzel, which it pretty obviously cannot. unless Floatzel is already choice-locked into Aqua Jet from revenge killing one of Flutter Mane's teammates.

 

[Twop2p]

Okay, I'll get straight to the point. As a player who prioritizes using Monofight I should be in favor of the ban. But I'm against it.

The Fairy-type itself doesn't have many options currently, removing a Pokemon that does hit hard, but can be fought equally even by a type that has a disadvantage against it is not something 100% fair.

But of course, i'm open to debate and willing to learn from your difficulties. Maybe I didn't feel a problem facing Flutter Mane, but I'm not the only player in the world.

 

[GKrt Ives]

Okay, I'll get straight to the point. As a player who prioritizes using Monofight I should be in favor of the ban. But I'm against it.

The Fairy-type itself doesn't have many options currently, removing a Pokemon that does hit hard, but can be fought equally even by a type that has a disadvantage against it is not something 100% fair.

But of course, i'm open to debate and willing to learn from your difficulties. Maybe I didn't feel a problem facing Flutter Mane, but I'm not the only player in the world.

I understand you, when they banned Annihilape, my Dark matchup became worse for me, as a Main Ghost. But Annihilape was unhealthy for the meta, so I can understand that too. But Flutter Mane isn't a problem as near as Annihilape.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I disagree with this point. Choice Specs Flutter Mane 3HKOs Clodsire (252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 145-172 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Black Sludge recovery, I use Spikes because Froslass and Klefki are available on their respective types), meaning that it fails to consistently counter it with just one layer of spikes up, assuming that Clodsire is holding Black Sludge. Should it be holding Heavy-Duty Boots, Flutter Mane still has a 82.5% chance to 3HKO it. (252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 145-172 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 82.5% chance to 3HKO. At this point, you could argue "that you could just switch in Ting-Lu", assuming the Clodsire is on a Ground team. However, that presents its own issue, that Clodsire is now significantly worn down and Flutter Mane can more easily pressure it in the future since now it can't even check Flutter Mane unless it uses Recover, which is hard to do.
I do acknowledge your next point of Flutter Mane being restricted to running a Choice item and how it hates being choice-locked though, since admittedly if the Flutter Mane user uses Shadow Ball and Ting-Lu comes in the Flutter Mane user isn't in a great position assuming they are using Ghost.

Won't the clodsire just click recover. I mean it switches in, has ~60% after spikes and 1 shadow ball, so it lives the next one and just heals...the calc you showed literally shows clod have a guaranteed chance to live 2 hits from specs after spikes. You say that it wears the clod down, but what we see here is the definition of a counter. Even if you got a high roll (37.1), you won't KO with a second high roll and clod recovers, you switchout and clod only gets black sludge recovery the next turn, and then the situation repeats 1 more time with Clod now hard switching in into spikes with ~82% hp and another max roll shadow ball, but Flutter would still not be able to KO with the next move. Meaning Clod now ends up with more HP than it had before first switching in (~92%), or if you stay in it'll just recover twice and you make no progress. Even with hard switching into specs , the calc your showing has being a definitive counter than can come in repeatedly throughout the match.

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
This is (probably) one of the strongest priority moves against Flutter Mane that isn't Bullet Punch or Sucker Punch, and it can't even secure an OHKO on it (before Stealth Rock, it does after Stealth Rock damage). It, like most other priority options, also falls flat on its face when Flutter Mane is behind Reflect which can be set by Grimmsnarl, even with Stealth Rock up (252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain through Reflect: 112-132 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, (252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 412-486 (132.4 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

You make a point of neutral/weaker priority not being able to OHKO but 13/18 types have viable access to Sucker, Bullet Punch, or Shadow Sneak, with 11 of those types realistically having mons that would run it (Not counting Elec with Sucker, or Dragon with Sucker Pult as I have hardly seen that). Many of these types have further answers to Flutter, but the 7 remaining types which don't have super effective priority still have pretty reliable checks and answers to Flutter even without it. Just about everything on Rock can check in Sand, not to mention mons such as Glimmora/Coalossal would directly counter. Lycanroc-Dusk can do up to 90% with Accelerock. Ground has multiple special defensive answers (Special D Treads + Clod) alongside scarfs and mons that live a hit like , Normal with Blissey + Ditto + mons such as Pyroar and Grafaiai that take both STAB, Elec with assault vest as a counter or assault vest as a check, Water has tons of offensive answers in Rain not to mention Aqua Jet, Dragon has Dragalge not to mention Ice Shard from Bax does like 50% (alongside scarfs+dragapult for specs), and Flying has special defensive Corviknight, scarfs, and the optional Gale Wings Talon (also forgot sucker bombirdier so I guess 14 types have strong priority, though that won't last long in the match as a lead).

 

[Aqua Jet]

Won't the clodsire just click recover. I mean it switches in, has ~60% after spikes and 1 shadow ball, so it lives the next one and just heals...the calc you showed literally shows clod have a guaranteed chance to live 2 hits from specs after spikes.

Shadow Ball can drop Special Defence, which will probably happen eventually (I don't know the exact chance of it happening before Clodsire gets into a comfortable range to 1v1 Flutter Mane)

You make a point of neutral/weaker priority not being able to OHKO but 13/18 types have viable access to Sucker, Bullet Punch, or Shadow Sneak, with 11 of those types realistically having mons that would run it (Not counting Elec with Sucker, or Dragon with Sucker Pult as I have hardly seen that). Many of these types have further answers to Flutter, but the 7 remaining types which don't have super effective priority still have pretty reliable checks and answers to Flutter even without it. Just about everything on Rock can check in Sand, not to mention mons such as Glimmora/Coalossal would directly counter. Lycanroc-Dusk can do up to 90% with Accelerock. Ground has multiple special defensive answers (Special D Treads + Clod) alongside scarfs and mons that live a hit like , Normal with Blissey + Ditto + mons such as Pyroar and Grafaiai that take both STAB, Elec with assault vest as a counter or assault vest as a check, Water has tons of offensive answers in Rain not to mention Aqua Jet, Dragon has Dragalge not to mention Ice Shard from Bax does like 50% (alongside scarfs+dragapult for specs), and Flying has special defensive Corviknight, scarfs, and the optional Gale Wings Talon (also sucker bombirdier, though that won't last long in the match as a lead).

Sucker / BP / Sneak =/= answer
case in point:

: (shadow sneak), (sucker punch), (sucker punch)

Brambleghast doesn't OHKO, Amoonguss thing is like C or D on the VR, and Meowscarada is only running Sucker Punch if it's using Heavy-Duty boots, though if you're not using Heavy-Duty Boots then there's a possibility it might be Scarf which does beat Flutter Mane with Flower Trick, but you're shoehorned into 1 set because of 1 Pokemon.

: (shadow sneak)

This is for sure ass on a type that uses Psy Terrain, Shadow Sneak doesn't even KO so even if it was good you still get fucked.

: (aqua jet), (bullet punch), (succer punch, bullet punch), (shadow sneak), (shadow sneak)

The only 'mons on this list I'd ever consider using a Priority move on are Iron Valient (which primarily runs a special set) and Toxicroak, both of which do not kill Flutter Mane and get killed in return.

: (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (aqua jet), (ice shard)

None of these KO with priority moves (with the exception of Choice Band Azumarill) in Rain, and Barraskewda and Floatzel fail to consistently OHKO in Rain after Reflect, making Azumarill the only valid answer here and that can't even counter Flutter Mane outside of Rain.

: (ice shard), (sucker punch, I'll talk about pult later)

Niether of these OHKO and both are killed in 1 hit. I think Dragapult can (probably) beat it with Phantom Force, but at that point the Flutter Mane user can just go into something like Grimmsnarl and force you out.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Shadow Ball can drop Special Defence, which will probably happen eventually (I don't know the exact chance of it happening before Clodsire gets into a comfortable range to 1v1 Flutter Mane)


Sucker / BP / Sneak =/= answer
case in point:


Brambleghast doesn't OHKO, Amoonguss thing is like C or D on the VR, and Meowscarada is only running Sucker Punch if it's using Heavy-Duty boots, though if you're not using Heavy-Duty Boots then there's a possibility it might be Scarf which does beat Flutter Mane with Flower Trick, but you're shoehorned into 1 set because of 1 Pokemon.

This is for sure ass on a type that uses Psy Terrain, Shadow Sneak doesn't even KO so even if it was good you still get fucked.

The only 'mons on this list I'd ever consider using a Priority move on are Iron Valient (which primarily runs a special set) and Toxicroak, both of which do not kill Flutter Mane and get killed in return.

None of these KO with priority moves (with the exception of Choice Band Azumarill) in Rain, and Barraskewda and Floatzel fail to consistently OHKO in Rain after Reflect, making Azumarill the only valid answer here and that can't even counter Flutter Mane outside of Rain.

Niether of these OHKO and both are killed in 1 hit. I think Dragapult can (probably) beat it with Phantom Force, but at that point the Flutter Mane user can just go into something like Grimmsnarl and force you out.

Not gonna go into how saying "you will eventually get a special d drop" cuts out clod as an answer, especially when it's only something like a 20% chance to 2hko special d dropped Clod with Specs Flutter after black sludge. A choice locked Flutter also has direct counters on both Poison/Ground that can bring momentum into your favor, as dark types are the norm to have on both types, and bringing Clod back into the game after that when it's at ~60% hp isn't the hardest thing.

Your entire previous post referenced Aqua Jet in rain as an example of neutral Priority, my point is that strong hitting/super effective priority is extremely prevalent. I also don't get why you think it NEEDS to OHKO, for reference to a revenge killer that relied on priority, Scizor in Gen 5 ran Quick Attack as an option to hit neutrals on Banded sets, even though it was doing sub 50% on most neutral hits it was still incredibly useful for picking off faster threats such as Keldeo and Thundurus in the late game.

In contrast, Brambleghast when Adamant does a high roll of 101%, and low of 86% - 1 layer of spikes and flutter is dead. Brute Bonnet shouldn't be dismissed either, as it's role in the ghost matchup is largely why it's used, and I even made a post earlier this week in the VR thread about how it clearly outclassed other C tier mons. I see it fairly often on Grass at mid-high ladder, and saying "oh it's C tier" means jack when the VR is nowhere near stabilized. Not to mention but Grass is widely known for it's inability to handle Flutter, it's probs the type that handles it worst and still it has checks to it's most common set.

This is for sure ass on a type that uses Psy Terrain, Shadow Sneak doesn't even KO so even if it was good you still get fucked.

My b on including Gallade I suppose, though Flutter isn't able to freely spam it's stab regardless with the likes of a Ghost Immune + multiple Fairy resists, as well as from my experience at least many Psys running Scarfs & potentially screens. I don't think Psy is the most important to include in the discussion as it is a Ghost v Psy monotype moment, but even so there's still counterplay.

The only 'mons on this list I'd ever consider using a Priority move on are Iron Valient (which primarily runs a special set) and Toxicroak, both of which do not kill Flutter Mane and get killed in return.

Fighting is another monotype moment, I wasn't including checks for every type with priority but even so Gallade when run is more likely to have Sneak as it typically runs band on Fighting from what I've seen, Lucario when run is usually done to help with flutter, and Iron Hands is known as a check.

None of these KO with priority moves (with the exception of Choice Band Azumarill) in Rain, and Barraskewda and Floatzel fail to consistently OHKO in Rain after Reflect, making Azumarill the only valid answer here and that can't even counter Flutter Mane outside of Rain.

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain through Reflect: 266-313 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain through Reflect: 336-396 (133.8 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can't just say "they fail to kill in rain" and then use swift swimmers using aqua jet like... not to mention but Water definitely has counterplay, and at the very least can take advantage of Flutter being Choice Locked.

Niether of these OHKO and both are killed in 1 hit. I think Dragapult can (probably) beat it with Phantom Force, but at that point the Flutter Mane user can just go into something like Grimmsnarl and force you out.

I literally, literally if you read my post, made note to not count priority from Dragon which is why I made comments later about how there's Dragalge, dragapult outspeeds specs, and Bax's Ice Shard like it or not is worth noting considering it literally does 50%. I'll also point out that Pult runs specs on Drag normally from what I'd seen, with Shadow Ball KOing Flutter and nothing on Ghost wanting to switch in. You make it seem like Flutter on Fairy is why Dragon would lose to Fairy, when that's simply not the case either.

One last thing I want to say, but you treat all of this as though it's in a vacuum. Sure, Brambleghast needs an absolute max roll to KO with Sneak, but getting hazards up vs. ghost isn't the most difficult thing and Hatterene can be played around as well. You make it seem like if Flutter KOs something it will be at 100% and the only answer is a priority move, which has never been the case from my experience. Residual damage, hazards, all need to be played around perfectly for a Flutter user for it to avoid KOs from Priority which majority of types have access to.

 

[wkxkevin]

I literally, literally if you read my post, made note to not count priority from Dragon which is why I made comments later about how there's Dragalge, dragapult outspeeds specs, and Bax's Ice Shard like it or not is worth noting considering it literally does 50%. I'll also point out that Pult runs specs on Drag normally from what I'd seen, with Shadow Ball KOing Flutter and nothing on Ghost wanting to switch in. You make it seem like Flutter on Fairy is why Dragon would lose to Fairy, when that's simply not the case either.

Wyvern, Aqua Jet, as well as everyone who is reading this post. I play ghost a lot and I would like to argue that unfortunately, on dragon, it is impossible to check flutter defensively meaning ice shard baxcalibur, dragapult, and scarfers are the only available options. Here is the main reason:

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

This means if tiniest bit of hazard is up, and flutter is in against a pokemon that is not dragalge, you are forced to sack. Imo, that is too abusable on both ghost and less importantly on fairy.

This is for sure ass on a type that uses Psy Terrain, Shadow Sneak doesn't even KO so even if it was good you still get fucked.

I would argue that one of gallade or medicham is required on psychic without fail. However, that does not dissuade the use of shadow sneak/bullet punch. Smart players will try to play around it and if they can't, I would argue that it's type being terrible and not flutter mane's problem. I very often solo psychic with just my stupid gholdengo set and wyvern can attest to how garbage the set is. Does Flutter Mane make fairy and ghost both borderline unwinnable: yes. However, this is a similar situation of melm shitting on fairy in SS and can't be justified as a valid reason to ban the mon.

Brambleghast doesn't OHKO, Amoonguss thing is like C or D on the VR, and Meowscarada is only running Sucker Punch if it's using Heavy-Duty boots, though if you're not using Heavy-Duty Boots then there's a possibility it might be Scarf which does beat Flutter Mane with Flower Trick, but you're shoehorned into 1 set because of 1 Pokemon.

Other than may the lead t-spikes setter, what meowscarada is not either scarf or has succer punch?

None of these KO with priority moves (with the exception of Choice Band Azumarill) in Rain, and Barraskewda and Floatzel fail to consistently OHKO in Rain after Reflect, making Azumarill the only valid answer here and that can't even counter Flutter Mane outside of Rain.

As Wyvern has mentioned, SS pokemon under rain legit don't have to use aqua jet and can just outspeed and OHKO.

The only 'mons on this list I'd ever consider using a Priority move on are Iron Valient (which primarily runs a special set) and Toxicroak, both of which do not kill Flutter Mane and get killed in return.

What kind of world do you live where you don't see lucario running bullet punch? Like I understand special attacker is a thing but the lucario's access to both extreme speed and bullet punch is more than valuable for fighting. It allows it sheck a bunch of pokemon that could mean trouble. Running a BP lucario is a good decision in general, not a good decision solely to not lose to flutter mane.

 

[Aqua Jet]

Not gonna go into how saying "you will eventually get a special d drop" cuts out clod as an answer, especially when it's only something like a 20% chance to 2hko special d dropped Clod with Specs Flutter after black sludge.

I didn't dismiss it as an answer, its a fine answer especially given that the definition of a check/counter specifically notes that it must do the role without hax. I do think that its not a great one though, considering the fact that Flutter Mane may be Psyshock, coupled with the fact that if you're unlucky enough the SpD drop may ruin your gameplan to use a weakened Clodsire as an answer.

A choice-locked Flutter also has direct counters on both Poison/Ground that can bring momentum into your favor

I do acknowledge your next point of Flutter Mane being restricted to running a Choice item and how it hates being choice-locked though, since admittedly if the Flutter Mane user uses Shadow Ball and Ting-Lu comes in the Flutter Mane user isn't in a great position assuming they are using Ghost.

I also don't get why you think it NEEDS to OHKO

In my experience, I found that Flutter Mane is able to semi consistently remain at 100% throughout a battle

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain through Reflect: 266-313 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane in Rain through Reflect: 336-396 (133.8 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can't just say "they fail to kill in rain" and then use swift swimmers using aqua jet like... not to mention but Water definitely has counterplay, and at the very least can take advantage of Flutter being Choice Locked.

Okay, this was a brain fart but on the topic of Water v. Flutter Mane, I still think that Flutter Mane still tips the scales heavily in Ghost's favor as a result of its ability to be supported by its teammates (Azumarill and Brambleghast) ability to semi-consistently switch into Floatzel and Barraskewda's Water-type attacks.

What kind of world do you live where you don't see lucario running bullet punch?

I've literally never seen a good player use Bullet Punch Lucario because that means you're dropping one of SD, MMash, or CC, all of which are shit to drop. To be completely transparent though I haven't seen many players run Fighting in general.


If either of you want to DM me on discorda (Dasher#8851) / ping me in the monotype one to continue this conversation live I'd be down btw, I enjoy debating these types of things

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Not gonna go into how saying "you will eventually get a special d drop" cuts out clod as an answer, especially when it's only something like a 20% chance to 2hko special d dropped Clod with Specs Flutter after black sludge. A choice locked Flutter also has direct counters on both Poison/Ground that can bring momentum into your favor, as dark types are the norm to have on both types, and bringing Clod back into the game after that when it's at ~60% hp isn't the hardest thing.

Should've pointed this out earlier and it's a bit of a mistake on my part, but Clod isn't the direct answer to Flutter regardless because Flutter would often pack Psyshock. Clod hard counters Flutters that don't have Psyshock and hard counters if you switch it into a predicted move that's stab/none psyshock coverage, I will also note that between coverage options in Power Gem/TBolt/Psyshock/Energy Ball there will definitely be a decent amount of Flutters without Psyshock.

On Ground the most common answer is Special Defensive Iron Treads, with protect guaranteeing you don't get 2hkod if they get a high roll with shadow ball - not to mention the team support in Ting Lu which can take advantage of a Flutter locked into Shadow Ball to begin with. In the Fairy Matchup especially you can bring momentum into your favor with not much to switch into Treads.

Against Poison it's pretty safe to assume toxic spikes and residual damage will be constant throughout the match, and Flutter's coverage becomes much more important. Both Shadow Ball + Psyshock do ~50% after black sludge to Toxapex, and Flutter needs to correctly predict Skuntank is in with Moonblast in order to do over 30%

Regardless I don't think either type has the most difficulty with Flutter, I haven't really seen a Calm Mind Psyshock set which I suppose would break Poison, but even then Skuntank would be able to much more reliably answer and the loss of either stab or sub would limit Flutter regardless either with coverage or inability to prevent status on such a set.

 

[ken]

I'll keep it brief:

There's been a lot of speculation on paper about how Flutter Mane is allegedly broken, but where's this in practice? There've been zero replays posted here to demonstrate any of this happening in real time, just calculations for imaginary scenarios that, while some do happen, many are just that - speculative. We also need to remember that you don't need a switch-in to every, single Pokémon. Revenge-killing is fine; nearly every type runs some sort of scarf that outspeeds timid Flutter Mane. Those that don't (or have other answers) generally have some sort of priority that helps and/or fatter mons that can take a hit or two to revenge, as well. Looking at this in a vacuum without considering real scenarios in a hazard-rich meta is not helpful for considering whether Flutter Mane is broken in practice or not. Further, specific sets mentioned, such as Calm Mind, aren't really common since Booster Energy got banned, and if they are used, you're lacking coverage and/or if you choose to go the sub/CM route, you're doing even less to many of the answers that may not have previously been able to take more than 1-2 hits. Besides what Kev posted above, there's really not much else to add except reinforce that you need Flutter Mane's coverage more than you need to run a non-choiced set or something else.

...and to poke a little fun :)

 

[roxie]