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Project Mono-Type: Water

Water Type

Phase 1 (info and ideas):
Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Workarounds:


Phase 2 (team construction):

Phase 3 (data and tweaking):
 
Water is a great type even for beginners as it offers an immense pool of Pokemon, offering great dual types and useful physically and specially based ones, both for offensive and defensive stats.

I don't want to start team building right here however, first we should decide in which direction the team will go. Keep in mind, that there's a complex ban which prohibits us to use both Drizzle and Swift Swim in one team. This forces us to decide in very first place whether we want to use permanent Rain or we want to run some Swift Swim users and thus we are in need of 2-3 Pokemon with Rain Dance and maybe also Damp Rock.

Many people talk about, what types Water type Pokemon do resist and they're weak to. It's totally right, but we need to check the other direction too.
Water hits a total of 3 types for super effective damage, named Ground, Rock and Fire. On the other side, Water is resisted by Dragon, Grass and Water. Makes a total of 6 types, which also means, there are 11 types that take neutral damage from it. Now, it's obvious from the above stated resistances, that Ice type moves (probably Ice Beam as main option) is urgently needed on 2-3 Pokemon on our team. To cover other Water types... Seeing Gastrodon raising incredibly in usage, a Grass type move might work better in the end. This again brings me to Ludicolo, which even gets STAB on it (not to mention it learns Ice Beam / Ice Punch as well), which should definately be considered to get a spot in the team.
 
Here is a list of Water types with secondary typings for quick reference:
(NFE's/Ubers excluded)
Poliwrath
Tentacruel
Slowbro
Dewgong
Cloyster
Starmie
Gyarados
Lapras
Omastar
Kabutops
Lanturn
Quagsire
Slowking
Qwilfish
Corsola
Mantine
Kingdra
Swampert
Ludicolo
Pelliper
Sharpedo
Whiscash
Crawdaunt
Walrein
Relicanth
Empoleon
Bibarel
Rotom-W
Sesimitoad
Carracosta
Swanna
Jellicent
 
OK, thought water might be a bit too bland, but here we go:

Cover your bases: of course you need to cover things that have type advantage over your team. Following is a list of common OU mons that we will need to consider if we're thinking about a Water-type monotype, as versus things like Heatran who will get covered no matter what we do:
  • Latias
  • Rotom-W
  • Gastrodon
  • Ferrothorn
  • Celebi
  • Latios

So that's a short list of weaknesses we'll face as a team. Ferrothorn's going to be a bitch if we go offensive, but for defensive teams, we'll burn it with Scald sooner or later. Tentacruel also counters it w/ Scald and Rapid spin. Rotom-W basically calls for Gastrodon or SpDef Ludicolo--the latter which might be interesting as it also deals with Gastrodon teams thinking they have no problem with Rain. All teams need a Dragon-type resist, and Empoleon here looks like a shoo-in, but we'll see.
 
Specially Defensive Empoleon might be one of the best candidates for tanking dragon attacks, being the only real resist. The issue is that Lati@s can both pack T-Bolt (Latios at least almost always does) and outspeed anyway.

Perhaps a scarfed Kingdra could be a good revenger/dragon killer.
 
Spork said:
A specially defensive Azumarill set with Sap Sipper - sounds silly in the context of BW OU, but remember that this is monotype, and pokemon often have to take on odd roles - walls Celebi fairly thoroughly, but generally fails at doing anything in return - He can't use Encore and Ice Punch on the same set, for example, and Celebi couldn't care less if he was Toxic'ed. Encore does allow an immune partner to set up on an Earth Power / Psychic however, and allows anyone to set up on a Nasty Plot, and a +1 Return with no attack investment does do some damage, as does Ice Beam, though not enough to defeat Celebi generally.

Something like 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA Sassy is a decent set for walling grass types, since they rarely carry physical attacks (and those that do mostly run mixed sets where the grass attack is the main physical attack, such as Venusaur or Tangrowth). Choosing moves is somewhat difficult though - Toxic seems important for consistent damage, and Encore is pretty central. Ice Beam helps to beat a lot of grass types, and Waterfall and Return can take advantage of the Sap Sipper attack boosts somewhat. Then there's always Protect.
Click to expand...

Yeah this guy counters grasses (except for SD Virizion, but Gyara handles him).

Anyway, do you guys not think that Swampert or Quagsire would be much better choices than Gastrodon? The only advantage Gastrodon really has is a water immunity (which a mono-water team hardly needs) and higher special attack (which I don't see as mattering particularly much). Or is Rotom-W that much of a threat? Admittedly Gastrodon is bulkier than Quagsire too, but Quaggy has his own obvious advantages.
 
Gastrodon and Quagsire both boast Recover over Swampert, which is absolutely huge. Swampert has his own advantages, and on a mono-Water the strong STAB EQ is appreciated for taking out non-Flying Electrics and Poisons.

Gastrodon isn't outright better than Quaggy, as Quags is better for taking on set-uppers like DDMence. Gastrodon is better offensively, however, if you're running Starmie, you might appreciate Quags' physical-oriented offense more, as Water lacks a physical attacker on the same caliber as Starmie, barring things like SS Kabutops.

Politoed is a prime choice for any Water team. A 50% boost to your main STAB is absolutely nothing to scoff at.

I think Mantine could work as a Celebi check, being neutral to Grass and immune to Earth Power. It struggles to do much else other than that, though.
 
Axa said:
I think Mantine could work as a Celebi check, being neutral to Grass and immune to Earth Power. It struggles to do much else other than that, though.
Click to expand...

Mantine has that insane base 140 Special Defense stat, but Gyarados holds so many other advantages over Mantine that it's just not worth it imo.
 
Gyarados is extremely useful because of how easily it threatens the most used grass types and the most used physical attackers. Bounce seems vital to deal damage in return though.

Mantine can't beat Celebi without signal beam.
 
You're sort of right actually, Mantine needs 176 SpA EVs to outdamage Recover + Leftovers...

Yeah he isn't really a counter.
 
skitz0phrenic said:
Modest 252 Mantine Signal Beam does 90% at best to 0 HP/0 SDef Celebi lol.

4x still isn't enough. Poor mantine.
Click to expand...

Mantine wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have 40 Base Attack. Really, it actually has a fairly impressive physical movepool (It gets EQ, Rock Slide, Acrobatics and Bullet Seed? Wow.), but can't use it for beans.

When its best offensive attack aside from Water attacks is HP Flying, you know it's got issues.

EDIT: Eviolite Mantyke actually takes less damage from Celebi. Well, since it can't attack either way...

Uninvested Mantyke's Signal Beam does 25.7% - 30.7% to 252/252 +ve Celebi. Woo?
 
He might have been useful if he could recover, set up hazards or phaze. As it it now he can't do anything to anybody.
 
One thing I think we should do first is, as Husky mentioned, is decide in which direction we want to go with this team.

Rain Offense? Rain Stall? Rain Ballanced? Rain dance? Anti-Weather using Hail/Rain Dance?

We have a lot of options to choose from here and discussing individual Pokemon isn't going to do us much good until we've decided where we're going with it. A team using Rain Dance and Swift Swim is going to have entirely different Pokemon on it than a Rain Stall team. We can't even discuss overall weaknesses and strengths because each type of team will have difficulties with different threats.

So I'm suggesting to Run that there be an extra phase after we cover the basic weaknesses and strengths where we vote on what type of team to make. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and we need to weigh these issues before we decide on which direction to go in.
 
Eviolite Mantyke takes 41.2% - 49% from +2 Timid LO Energy Ball from Celebi (without LO, it takes 31.6% - 37.8%). Signal Beam does 42.2% - 50.4% in return, so funnily it beats LO versions but may lose to Leftovers versions (provided SR isn't in play). It also gets Haze, letting it check things like Volcarona, Reuniclus and Conkeldurr. Too bad it's totally screwed if SR is on and doesn't have reliable recovery. It's totally reliant on Tentacruel and Vaporeon/Alomomola. Even Rain Dish would go a long way making it usable...
 
Useful Lists:

Azumarill (Strongest Physical Water mon)
Kingler
Gyarados (DD/Resttalk)(Secondary Typing)
Sharpedo (Speed Boost/Aqua Jet)(Secondary Typing)
Crawdaunt (DD + Adaptability)(Secondary Typing)
Swampert (Tank)(Secondary Typing)
Carracosta (ShellSmash/Solid Rock/Priority)
Feraligatr (DD)
Cloyster (ShellSmash/Rapid Spin/Spikes/Wall)
Poliwrath (Bulk Up)(Secondary Typing)
Lapras (DD+Hydration)
Kingdra (DD/Mix/SwSw)(Secondary Typing)

Omastar (ShellSmash)
Gorebyss (SmashPass)
Empoleon (Secondary Typing)
Vaporeon (Tank/Healer)
Rotom-W (Secondary Typing)
Starmie (Rapid Spin/Speed)
Kingdra (Mix/SwSw)(Secondary Typing)
Politoed (Rain)
Suicune (Calm Mind)

Vaporeon (Wish)
Milotic
Suicune
Tentacruel (Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin)(Secondary Typing)
Rotom-W (Levitate)(Secondary Typing)
Jellicent
Ludicolo (Rain Stall)(Secondary Typing)
Gyarados (RestTalk)(Secondary Typing)
Slowbro (Fire Moves/Regenerator)
Slowking
Blastoise (Rapid Spin)
Swampert (Secondary Typing)
Empoleon (Secondary Typing)
Lapras (Rain Stall)
Lanturn (Secondary Typing)
Gastrodon (Secondary Typing)
Alomomola (Wish/Rain Stall)
Listed some reasons after them as to what they can do. Most are self explanatory. Secondary Typing is listed for the pokemon whose typing helps it out. I am noticing that a rain stall team would be a very decent team type. Either that or a Bulky sweeper type team would probably work best, utilizing the infinite rain that Toed brings.

Rain Stall pretty much means that they are hard to take down in rain, either due to typing, or ability. Hydration and Rain Dish are one in particular that help that out.
 
I don't think stall is going to happen with ANY mono-type team... theres just no way to consistently cover your weaknesses. Stall is based on the idea that you can switch in somebody to everything consistently... but being only water type, its unlikely we will be able to keep a core group healthy long enough to make stall viable.
 
Run said:
I don't think stall is going to happen with ANY mono-type team... theres just no way to consistently cover your weaknesses. Stall is based on the idea that you can switch in somebody to everything consistently... but being only water type, its unlikely we will be able to keep a core group healthy long enough to make stall viable.
Click to expand...
Hydration Vaporeon and Alomomola make great walls and healers for Water Stall. Tentacruel can lay down Toxic Spikes and spin. Jellicent is a great spin blocker. RestTalk Gyrados can wear down enemies with Dragon Tail. Ludicolo can stall out lots of things using LeechSeed+Rain Dish. Cloyster has access to Spikes, while Swampert has Stealth Rock. Rotom-w makes a good tick user, which can kill some of Stalls bigger threats (Reuniclus being the big one). Rain Stall with just waters is entirely possible, and could even turn out to be pretty good.

On the other hand bulky offense has never looked so good. Hydration Lapras is a beast, as is Vaporeon. Crocune has proven itself in the past. Gyarados can wreck things with intimidate+DD. Swampert can hit hard from the get go, while Curse Quagsire can be a pain to take down. Rotom-W can lay down hurt with its Dual Stabs, and take full advantage of rain. Agility Empoleon lacks Peteya berry but can still pack a punch in Rain with torrent.
 
I guess as usually it is time for me to plug my favorite B/W set, Hydration Vaporeon. It is easily one of the best walls in the game, and better yet few people seem to realize just how awesome it is until they get stall-swept by it (Yes, I mean Hydration Vaporeon, by itself, outstalls entire teams in ways not unlike sweepers do).

If we're doing rain stall, or even rain balenced, a defensive Hydration Vaporeon should be the core of our team. All we need then is something to deal with Pokemon with strong electric attacks, and some to deal with strong grass attacks, and something to take choice banded outrages, and you're pretty much set. I'm not kidding when I say this thing beats entire teams.

Anyway, that's only if we're not doing some sort of offensive team. I just had to mention this though, because seriously, Hydration Stall Vaporeon is an absolute beast.
 
Hi

This is a great idea and I have already tried and failed to run a mono-water type team, and I thought I might contribute by saying that we need to listen to the thread masterminds to find the best team. The thing is that we obviously need two fully formed teams for the current types of water team. We need rain, that is obvious, but we need to create the teams then then theorymon on how to maximize those teams and then find out which is better and try to improve that.

Shall I start
Drizzle: Politoed,
Rain Dance: Kingdra.

The competitive brains of Smogon need to work from this basis. which is wher unfortunately I must withdraw.
 
As some other posters have said, Run, we need to make a decision as to the team type before we can go any further.

Everybody has a decent understanding of Water's basic strengths and weaknesses. Everybody knows the most used Water Pokemon, and hopefully there are plenty of people who are familiar with the lesser used Water types, too. We could discuss to death all sorts of stuff about Water, but what we really need is focus and drive.

And right now, the best direction is a team type. Because of Water's diversity, it's actually bound to be a great discussion in and of itself.
 
I'm going to have to agree with others with regards to the need to discuss what type of team setup we opt for taking on. With water having as varied and useful pool of pokemon for our use in this first project, we are open to try rain stall, balanced and we are even capable in using offense if desired.

Getting onto the stall and balanced variants of a rain team, Politoed is a dead guarantee because of his ability which basically would underpin the rest of the team by providing them with the tools they need to bring out their relative merits and in many cases also give them further strategic avenues in which to delve into. As mentioned before, pokemon such as Ludicolo and Vaporeon who use their abilities are much more potent in the rain and add another dimension to their builds.

From an offensive prospective, I do agree by what Munchlax222 mentioned with potentially considering using Rain Dance over Drizzle. The reason why I think it was mentioned is that it brings benefits because it allows us to bring Swift Swimmers into the fold, which is something that would be omitted with the use of Drizzle due to Aldaron's Proposal. Whilst the risk of ultimately only having Rain in intermitting bursts of 5 or 8 turns and also the ever-present threat of the Rain Dance user(s) being knocked out are key points, the ultimate reward of getting to use a fast group of pokemon quickly with many able to hit hard right off the bat as well is a reward that may be worthwhile. I'm throwing that out as an extension to the previously mentioned avenue and hopefully expnading upon it with why I think it could bring benefits.

Ultimately a Rain Dance team will be much more maintenance to maintain the weather in our favour with the threat of weather inducers being easily able to change the weather at will, where we would take at most two turns to change the weather (one turn to switch to RD user, another to use RD itself), while inducing the weather is at most just a switch. We'd also need to consider that Rain Dance is Trickable, which could be another issue that is of detriment to using the Rain Dance strategy. On the weather inducers matching up against a prospective team, with Sand's case, both Tyranitar and Hippowdon will be unwilling to take any sort of STAB water attack, while Ninetales and Sun teams would still struggle against Water types mostly upon type matchup, and again water attacks would still provide a decent chunk of damage despite the sun weakening offensive capabilities specially and physically..
 
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