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The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe we should forgo the obvious Drizzle team and go with Rain Dance instead. Why? There's one big draw for me... if we build it right, we'll be able to dominate the weather wars.
It's already common knowledge that using weather inducing moves on the turn a weather inducer comes in is an extremely effective way to screw over the weather inducer. Beyond that, using rain dance and swift swim will mean using Pokemon most people don't know very well, giving us the edge since opposing weather inducers will be less likely to switch out, getting themselves KO'd
For instance, consider Kabutops. Everyone who's played when Swift Swim was prevalent knows that Kabutops NEEDS rain to function. So most users might think, what better way to stop it than to switch in their weather inducer and make it useless? Yeah, that's what they think right before their Ninetails is OHKO'd by a Stone Edge to the face and their Tyranitar is OHKO'd by Brick Break, instantly winning us the weather war.
It's unexpected, not well known anymore and quite likely just as effective as ever. It would also make it easier to successfully delve into the lower tiers as we will no doubt need to do on a mono-type team, since they are full of Swift Swim abusers left behind when it was banned when combined with Drizzle. Finally, we get access to SS Kingdra, whose abilities I don't think need too much elaborating on.
Sorry if this thread is only for discussing the Water mono type team now...but, I figured this might be useful in trying to counter the biggest water mono enemy.
No love for the mono Grass type team?
I had a mono Grass team in gen 4 that did pretty well. Even beat a mono flying at one time iirc...
Obviously big weakness due to typing, but generally holds up to the common mono types (common types usually water, steel, dragon, fighting, poison, flying) well. And generally has a nice bonus of completely demolishing all but the best built water monos.
Biggest benefits:
Best status abusers (only poison, fighting, and bug otherwise have spore)
Many secondary types that basically grant viable team members offering at least neutrality to all types. (So much easier with Ferro as a possibility now...)
I used a "suicide" lead dual screener and then set up a swords dance sweeper with moves that have good neutral coverage. Mostly to weaken walls and grass resists so the rest of the team could proceed to sweep.
...My team was kind of in the area between balance and hyper offense...which might have lead to its success as most opponents probably expected subseed stall or something.
While grass is my favorite type also, we should try to keep this topic on track so that it actually GOES somewhere.
Also, it's about time someone made a topic like this!!
For a mono water, pretty sure rain dance is the way to go, not drizzle. As a way to stop dragons, SS is pretty much a necessity, as empoleon can't safely switch into... well any dragon, really. But plenty of SSers carry powerful ice beams.
Basically, though stall is a decent option, offense is the way to go for mono teams. Luckily, there are a lot of ways for offense to take shape.
The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe we should forgo the obvious Drizzle team and go with Rain Dance instead. Why? There's one big draw for me... if we build it right, we'll be able to dominate the weather wars.
It's already common knowledge that using weather inducing moves on the turn a weather inducer comes in is an extremely effective way to screw over the weather inducer. Beyond that, using rain dance and swift swim will mean using Pokemon most people don't know very well, giving us the edge since opposing weather inducers will be less likely to switch out, getting themselves KO'd
For instance, consider Kabutops. Everyone who's played when Swift Swim was prevalent knows that Kabutops NEEDS rain to function. So most users might think, what better way to stop it than to switch in their weather inducer and make it useless? Yeah, that's what they think right before their Ninetails is OHKO'd by a Stone Edge to the face and their Tyranitar is OHKO'd by Brick Break, instantly winning us the weather war.
It's unexpected, not well known anymore and quite likely just as effective as ever. It would also make it easier to successfully delve into the lower tiers as we will no doubt need to do on a mono-type team, since they are full of Swift Swim abusers left behind when it was banned when combined with Drizzle. Finally, we get access to SS Kingdra, whose abilities I don't think need too much elaborating on.
This is in no way the best way to make a mono water team.
Anyway, bulky balance shit is the best way to go. Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes are easily obtained by Empoleon and Tentacruel, respectively, and there are plenty of sweepers to easily abuse those like Gyarados and Rotom-W. All of this under Politoed's rain = wins.
While I'm sure there is some debate on whether smashing/smash passing works the best under drizzle or rain dance. I would say a huge benefit to water (not the biggest per se) is the ability to have a few choices in shell smashers. Goreby is pretty nice and (not positive if its released) hydration isn't a bad ability if running under perma-rain. This should be considered.
I decided to go ahead and try making a Mono water type just to get things kicked off. After lots and lots of battles (And Many losses) this is the result. It is in no way perfect, but it performs well enough to beat most teams. I built it around setting up and weakening enemies to allow a sweep by a sweeper (Gyarados or Lapras in this case.) Ev's were tweaked for some of the mons, and just basic spreads for others. The biggest problem I ran into was Ferrothorn (Burn (Scald/Will-O-Wisp), as fire doesn't exactly work in Rain). Other Grass types were handled by Ice or Gyarados, and electrics were beaten down by Swampert (Or other obligatory Water/Ground). An interesting thing i found while trying ot run this team was the fact that STAB isn't neccessary, or even wanted sometimes. When you have a team full of the same type of pokemon having all of them use their STAB is pointless. In this way Secondary STAB is ridiculously important, even more so then the resistances it gives. Anyways here is my team at the moment. Feel free to use it and tweak it to make it better.
A little bit early to start off posting teams.. You're too quick, bro ^.^" But you're right in some case. I think the most important pros and cons around Mono-Water teams have been pointed out, and now it's time to start off thinking for the workarounds.
Let's grab the facts together:
- extreme versatility in strategy (offensive, defensive, balanced all possible)
- Choice between Drizzle and Rain Dance + Damp Rock
- Increased pool of Pokemon and therefore options when using the latter one = access to Swift Swim
- Lists of useful stuff down below
- ...seriously, that's all we have up to now.. No one said in which direction we're going yet.
Things I thought of lately..
- we're in need to make sure to win weather wars (Rain Dance probably better?)
- What if we face other prominent Rain teams?
- What if we face Pokemon with abilities, that render Water type moves (aka. Main STAB options) useless? - this includes Water Absorb, Storm Drain and Dry Skin
________________________________________________ Some lists other people posted here / edited with highlights:
I wouldn't exclude Jellicent from our list of threats! Water Absorb variants especially could be difficult to work around. Jolteon also poses the threat of being ridiculously fast and hitting very hard with Volt Switch or using Specs HP Grass on the predict to our Water/Ground switch-in.
In terms of weather, I personally recommend Drizzle, but we can work with whatever I s'pose. There is a reason Politoed is ranked so high in OU, so let's utilize that. Packing Rain Dance on the side might not be a bad idea. Also, I can stand behind Hydration Vaporeon, especially offensive sets. They hit like a truck and can be very hard to stop thanks to Rest with no drawbacks.
Lets get to team construction. I'm seeing a lot of good comments on playstyles. I put a list up which I'm sure we will narrow down pretty quickly to a few options. Are there any pokemon we can agree need to go in no matter what kind of team we make?
Discuss!
Since winning the weather wars will be so important for this team, what do you guys think of keeping a RD users on the team even if we have politoed as a backup? That way if Poli goes down, we can lure out their weathermon and down it, then gain full weather control. Just a thought.
On that note, I have a question about Hydration Vaporeon: does it run a viable rain-dance set? Can we make one as a backup?
Starmie is a good choice for any kind of rain team; it can spin for defensive teams, and it has an amazing LO 3 Attacks + Recover set that can destroy almost all of OU.
Gyarados can be bulky with Rest-Talk or offensive with DD.
Hydration Vaporeon needs Rest, STAB water move, Ice Beam and then HP Grass for Rotom-W/Gastrodon. Much rather go on the offensive with that set than defensive. Vaporeon does have 110 SAtk which is very often overlooked. It's probably a good idea to have another mon as a back up Rain Dancer, something like Tentacruel or Ludicolo which offer decent bulk and can use their uniqu(ish) typings to get in and switch the weather. Tentacruel fares better vs Ninetales, and Ludi can force TTar out with both it's STABs. Abomasnow is rare, but really does a number on Mono water, especially SDef Aboma. Soemthing that can lure in and kill it like HP Fire Rotom-W would be needed.
Jellicent is a must if you want any hazards. Otherwise they will be spun.
Swampert is more useful then Gastrodon, better movepool overall.
Toxic is your friend. Toxic spikes in particular are really important. It allows you to beat water absorbing pokemon, who will be massive issues otherwise.
Lapras is a beast. Half of my wins can be attributed to it alone. Use it.
Grass Neutrality is good, but not the most important thing around. Just pack a pokemon that can take them down in a hit or 2. Ice Beam/Flyying moves seem to be the best way here.
Perma rain is what makes these teams possible. Otherwise you will be screwed by Sun. Politoed should thus always run a bulky set. On the up side with Tentacruel and a SR laying pokemon The other weather starters tend to die quickly.
I have yet to test any others, but those ones work well. Take note if Gyarados is used a Water/Ground, or Laturn is required. Rotom-W is too popular to go without. Same thing goes for if you are using a Water/Ground, make sure you have something that is neutral to grass.
Hydration Vaporeon needs Rest, STAB water move, Ice Beam and then HP Grass for Rotom-W/Gastrodon. Much rather go on the offensive with that set than defensive. Vaporeon does have 110 SAtk which is very often overlooked. It's probably a good idea to have another mon as a back up Rain Dancer, something like Tentacruel or Ludicolo which offer decent bulk and can use their uniqu(ish) typings to get in and switch the weather. Tentacruel fares better vs Ninetales, and Ludi can force TTar out with both it's STABs. Abomasnow is rare, but really does a number on Mono water, especially SDef Aboma. Soemthing that can lure in and kill it like HP Fire Rotom-W would be needed.
Hazards. HP Fire is the worst option to put on any rain team. If anything use HP Fighting or even steel would be better. Having a big threat lose 25% of its health each time it switches in is a good way to deal with it.
Well, if Aboma is switching into Rotom-W, it's gonna be Hailing therefore HP Fire isn't that dumb an idea, but overall I agree that HP fighting would be better. I forgot about hazards, which is probably the best way to keep Aboma from walling the Surfs and Ice Beams.
How about a team that's not entirely stall, but heavy defense with a few key hitters? The kinds of things I'm seeing are defensive cores, but using gaya/lapras keeps there from being holes defensively (gaya typing and intimidate, lapras hydration + great stats) but gives very viable sweep options for late game should stall be breached.
Gyarados/Lapras makes a great defensive hitter core. The overall bulk allows them to set up and then go to town. The last 2 slots could/should go towards hazards. Swampert+Tentacruel maybe? Or go double intimidate with Qwilfish? I posted the team I have been tweaking a couple posts up, and it uses the same premise of weakening opponents before hitting hard with a sweeper.
By the way the set I put up for Lapras allows it to survive a CB Scizors Superpower at full health. Which means that you can DD on turn one that he switches in, DD again as it attacks, rest, rest, rest, and by this time the Superpower is dealing less then 50%.
Well, if Aboma is switching into Rotom-W, it's gonna be Hailing therefore HP Fire isn't that dumb an idea, but overall I agree that HP fighting would be better. I forgot about hazards, which is probably the best way to keep Aboma from walling the Surfs and Ice Beams.
And the times when your opponent doesn't use Abomasnow? Then you have a pokemon with effectively 3 moves. As such I believe HP fighting would probably be better. And Hazards are the easiest way to kill Aboma. The other weather starters have a hard time switching in at all, what with you entire team being strong against them and all.
I have a few working tentacruel sets to choose from. With a defensive core, Acid spray becomes a great option giving some grass coverage as well as being able to weaken incoming pokemon that can then be hit hard by scald or any of the special-oriented defensive pokemon that would take the hit. I'm thinking something like this.
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Rain Dish
252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
-Toxic Spikes
-Acid Spray
-Scald
-Rapid Spin / Sludge Wave / Giga Drain (once PO picks it up) / 80 other things...
Rapid spin is nice against opposing stall teams, Sludge Wave comes out of nowhere against unsuspecting Celebi and Suicune that try to use cruel as setup fodder. I hear Giga Drain is available on DW Tentacruel now, but Pokemon Online hasn't picked it up yet, is that right? We can also put things like ice beam, rain dance (for backup), Mirror Coat, and Confuse Ray here... There are a ton of good options
Tenta needs a good physical water/ground buddy to make a really good match. Defensive Swampert fits the bill:
We dont really need another water attack. Plus DD Sala and Dnite LOVE to switch in on an expected EQ or stay in after being Roared. Ice beam makes short work of a lot of big threats.
In my opinion, a balance Drizzle team is the way to go. I theorymonned a team this morning in teambuilder that I plan to test later using the following: Specs Politoed, Cursed Body Jellicent, SubBounce Gyarados (any attempt at using Drizzle for a team should use this), Specially Defensive Empoleon, Bulky Rotom-W, Quagsire.
Specs Toed is chosen over other versions due to the balanced nature of the team, it generally lacks huge offensive options. I added some EVs into HP from Speed to add some survivability.
Jellicent is the obligatory spin blocker, but primarily the teams stallbreaker. 100 EVs are used to outspeed 16 Spe Skarmory, the fastest Skarm you will see, while Toxic allows the team a way to bypass Gastrodon, although Will-o-wisp is also viable for reasons discussed later.
SubBounce Gyarados is the best sweeper a Rain team has to offer, it will win you games. 88 Spe EV's guarantee outspeed all base 115's after a Dragon Dance with the remaining EVs giving bulk to your subs.
Specially Defensive Empoleon grants you tons of key resitances and a chance against dragon teams. Standard Scald/Ice Beam/SR/Roar is its best set with 88 SDef EVs moved to defense for generall bulk.
Bulky Rotom-W is the teams oddest set, running a 252/88/80/88 EV spread for great bulk retaining some of its offensive presence. Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt are standard, Pain Split for survivability, but the crux here is Toxic. Everyones favourite switch in to Rotom is Gastrodon who is tough to handle, but with Toxic, this threat is neutered. With this addition WoW can be run on Jellicent alongside Scald to help against Dragon teams.
Finally, Quagsire provides insurance against set up sweepers that could break the team. Dragon Dance w/o Sub lose to burn eventually, with Sub gets PP stall. QD Volc goes down to Earthquake. Terakion dies to either attack. With Stockpile and Recover Quagsire isn't going down easily.
The main concern that I can see is the immense pressure laid on Empoleon. It is your primary check for many special threats that it can be difficult to keep it alive.
How it handles the top threats in the metagame:
Tyranitar - Can be predicted and hit with SpecsToeds Focus Blast, burning or poisoning it cripples it, Quagsire laughs at DDTar.
Rotom-W - Painful. Choice sets are played around using Quagsire and Jelli/Empoleon. Not choiced sets must be Poisoned. Specs HP Grass puts offensive pressure on it.
Scizor - Pathetic. Jellicent and Gyarados completely cock block it.
Ferrothorn - Can be Taunted by Jellicent and Scald/WoW burned by Jelli/Empoleon/Quag. If its burned Garados can pull set ups off of it.
Dragonite - DD versions lose to Quagsire, getting PP stalled. CB Nite will almost certainly kill something but will be killed by Empoleon in return. Rain sweepers are walled by Rotom-W.
Politoed - Bulky=walled by Jelli, set up on by Emp/Gyara, Specs=painful but manageable.
Gliscor - lol. Literally the only thing it threatens is Empoleon who can kill it with Ice Beam. Acrobatics sets lose to Rotom, Facade loses to Jelli.
Heatran - More lol. Worst it can do is unboosted HP Grass.
Jirachi - Special Defensive loses to Jellicent, any CM loses to Quagsire
Latios - Difficult to play around, Empoleon is top blocker and can hit with Ice Beam, status is helpful, Politoed can predict the switch and Ice Beam
Skarmory - 100% loses to Jellicent, loses to Rotom-W
Reuniclus - CM loses to Stockpile Quag, OTR gets Taunted by Jelli, or can be played between Emp and Jelli until TR runs out.
Deoxys-S - Lead gets 2 hazards and dies to Specs Toed, cleaner is stopped by Quag if it can take a hit.
Haxorus - HUge problem (as it is for any rain team). Get the burn. if you don't, things will die, and quickly.
Ninetales - Doesn't like coming in on anything but SolarBeam variants can be tough.
Conkeldurr - Stopped by Quag, but Quag can only Burn in retaliation, also stopped by Gyarados who threatesn with Bounce, Hydro Pump ass rapes it.
Celebi - NP Celebi instant wins if Gyara hasn't set up yet. Gyarados is really your only hope.
Forretress - Loses to Jelli but Volt Switch sucks, same for Gyara. Anything can break it down with their STAB's.
Terrakion - SD or RP lose to Quag, Chioce requires prediction but Jellicent can wall CC while Emp or Quag stops SE.
Gyarados - Loses to Thunderbolt Rotom.
Gengar - Annoying, but any Sub gets broken by a STAB and should be 2HKOed at worst.
Starmie - Very dangerous, only Rotom-W isn't hit hard by one of its attacks. Jellicent can stall out Life Orb in a pinch.
Landorus - Set up is yet again stopped by Quag. Quag actually stops most Landorus while Rotom also beats non-Sub Lando.
Jellicent - You run slightly more Speed so your Jelli wins, however, with Cursed Body you can be burned by their Scald. Rotom-W wins with Thunderbolt as well. Toxic stops it cold. Gyarados beats most versions via Sub.
Infernape - Stopped cold by Gyara and Jellicent.
Volcarona - Quag>j00. Jelli beats non-Rest versions as well.
Tentacruel - EQ with Quag or set up on it with Gyarados.
Gastrodon - Predict the switch and Specs HP grass it, or lure with Rotom and Toxic it before hiding behind Taunt Jellicent.
Magnezone - Walled by Quag.
Espeon - Can't take continued offensive pressure, no particular way to beat it. Just watch out for a Dual Screens version, however Quag should stop whatever the try to set up.
Blissey - Jellicent.
Salamence - DD Mence loses to Quagsire, MixMence goes to Emp on the DM, then to Gyara for the set up.
Hydreigon - Scarf is the only common set and can only really be played around. U-Turn won't hit anyone hard, Dark Pulse and Focus Blast get taken by Empoleon and Jelli/Gyara respectively.
Breloom - Set up on by Gyara if you can avoid Spore. Very dangerous though.
Vaporeon - Taunt with Jelly. Rotom Thunderbolt, Gyara.
Latias - CM versions go to Quagsire.
Toxicroak - Instantly loses to Gyarados if SD, loses to Jelli if Sub/BU. Loses to Quag regardless.
Lucario - Walled by Gyara, non-Crunch is walled by Jelly. Stockpile Quag walls it or kills with EQ.
Bronzong - Taunt it with Jelly, wall it with Gyara, whatever ou want, it cant do shit.
Virizion - A huge problem but loses to Gyara one on one. If it sets up your in trouble though.
Scrafty - BU gets raped by Politoed, Gets walled by Quag
Venusaur - In Sun only Empoleon can take a hit or two. In rain Gyarados can DD and then Bounce.
Metagross - Walled by Jelli/Gyara/Quag
Mienshao - lol, Jelli.
Cloyster - WoW from jelli, Thunderbolt from Rotom, Stocpile with Quag.
Swampert - Wtf can this do? All it can do against Gyara is Roar.
Mew - A douche to everyone. Your best bet is to smash it with Specs Hydro Pump, as it can outspeed and Taunt anything, and recvoer off unboosted hits.
Hippowdon - You like eating Scalds? Only forces out Empoleon.
Mamoswine - Stopped by Rotom-W, Gyarados, Jellicent, Quag
Chansey - Jellicent
Dugtrio Traps and kills Empoleon, everything else can kill it.
The biggest problems for this team is the pressure placed on Empoleon, who lacks recovery, and the lack of a Spinner, as T-Spikes can hamper your survavability. I would have liked to have fit Starmie or Tentacruel into the team but really couldn't find the space for them.
Anyway, I believe the best bet for Mono-Water is a Balanced team and this is a good starting point for that team.
I wouldn't consider Abomasnow being such a huge threat.. Gyarados and Mantine/Eviolite-Mankyte resist both it's STABs and scare him out quite easily with their respective Flying STABs. Bounce Gyarados might work especially well for this role. With that, it also covers most other Grass type pokemon. Ferrothorn will 'just' take neutral damage from it though.
I like the idea of running both Drizzle and Rain Dance as it's sort of unexpected at all and will catch many opponents off guard, once our toed is down and they think they can fodder their own weather causer afterwards.
Anyways, here are some team options I thought of:
I'd really want SpD Empoleon being in the line up, mainly to set up Stealth Rocks but also to take Draco Meteors from the likes of Latios as best as possible (and actually takes neutral damage from Grass type moves plus it works great in tandem with Gyarados to cover each others weaknesses). Hydration Vaporeon is a BOSS! LO + Rest + 3 Attacks works wonders on anything. SubDD Gyarados is probably our best physical attacking option. However, SubPunch Swampert is really underestimated and with 110 Atk it hits things quite hard. By the way, it hits Ferrothorn for super effective damage (Dmg Calc: 63,07% - 74,43%). With Politoed around, we technically have 4 members already. 2 slots left, so i guess some sort of spinner like Cloyster or Tentacruel should be used, but they also offer more layers of entry hazards. On the last slot, I'd use Lanturn, because it has access to Volt Switch to keep the momentum and hit Water types quite hard but also offers a lot of status moves, so it would support the team even further. Again, Ludicolo is still one of my favorites for a spot in the team. With its great secondary STAB which helps to nail other water type pokemon, especially Rotom-W(!) and can be used both as physical and special attacker or defensive so it's pretty much unpredictable until the first move has been shown.
Outspeeds +Spe base 110's, lures in and eliminates Celebi (deals 72.3% - 86.1% to max HP, offensive versions take 85.4% - 101.8%). Yawn can work as a last resort against things like CM Latias and DD Dragonite.
NO. SS Azumarill is a fucking joke. 50 offenses and 100/80/80 defenses? Yeah, it can wall Celebi, but what's it doing back? And how's it contributing to the rest of the team? Get that shit out of here.
One thing that I think we should be heavily concerned about while using a Drizzle team with Mono-Water is Steel-types, most specifically Ferrothorn. While I don't think any of us want to run Poliwrath, I recommend we put some Fighting-type moves on the team where they are least expected.
Also, running Hidden Power Fire is not necessarily a poor idea. When we lose the weather war, it might be an effective tool to have. Especially if we are running Specstoed, which has a good chance of losing that war.
Most of you don't understand how to make a proper mono team. Texas Cloverleaf has it spot on, though.
Lapras? Why the hell would we use Lapras? What does it contribute? The main thing you need to ask when deciding team slots on a mono team, is how is this Pokemon contributing overall to the team's synergy as a whole
