Project Mono-Type: Water

Both of you kind of miss the point. It is perfectly fine to break rocks down into sand on a Drizzletoed team. This isn't progressive jazz, there's a way to make a palatable, original mono-Water team by using some bog standards.

I would also like to say that this is a very good thread with a strong op and vibrant discussion - exactly what we're going for. Looking good Run.
 
Xephyr said:
It's not about interesting and educational. We're trying to make the best possible mono water team. That includes Politoed.
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I'd argue that while yes, we are trying to make the "best possible" Mono-Water team, we are also trying to learn something about the team-building process - that is, learning to tailor Pokemon to fill specific roles that may not be covered in their on-site analysis. So, yes, it is about being educational.

As far as being interesting goes, maybe making the obvious Politoed/Quagsire/Rotom-W/Gyarados/Empoleon/Jellicent is interesting to you, but I'd think that at least attempting to give the less-used Waters, like Floatzel and Poliwrath, a shot at this. That's a much more challenging prospect than slapping the blatantly obvious choices together and calling it a night.

Edit:

Both of you kind of miss the point. It is perfectly fine to break rocks down into sand on a Drizzletoed team. This isn't progressive jazz, there's a way to make a palatable, original mono-Water team by using some bog standards.
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You're right that some bog standards are going to wind up on this team; it's pretty much unavoidable. I was just saying that putting Politoed on a Mono-Water team is so blindingly obvious that it would be much more educational to at least try and be successful at the concept without him.

Edit 2:

To further clarify my point now that it's morning and I'm a little more awake, I just think it's silly to automatically declare Politoed required when there's such a massive pool of fully-evolved Water types to pull from. Wasn't the huge amount of options Water provides one of the main selling points? Yes, you still have five more team slots if you feel Politoed is required but...it just seems like a really boring option to me.
 
You're right that some bog standards are going to wind up on this team; it's pretty much unavoidable. I was just saying that putting Politoed on a Mono-Water team is so blindingly obvious that it would be much more educational to at least try and be successful at the concept without him.
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But that minimizes our chances of success incredibly. The support that Politoed provides to a mono water team is more than any other Pokemon of the type can do. If we're also trying to make the best possible team, there is no dispute that Politoed is going on it.
 
Looking at the "threats" that mono water teams has problems with, is there something that can lure and KO at least the most dangerous ones (Ferrothorn and Lati@s)?

All i can think here now is... Feraligatr. Well, not the best example, but anyway...
Needs a decent investiment on HP or SpD to survive a hit from the Latis.
Something like Swords Dance/Superpower/Ice Punch/Aqua Jet. Aqua Jet within the Torrent range and with Rain support is surprisingly powerful, almost as powerful as Absol's Sucker Punch (the strongest priority attack in the game).
 
Let's think about this now. Some staples on rain teams are Ferrothorn (4x resist to Fire), Tornadus, and Dragonite (Hurricane, plus nice bulk and Thunder on the latter). With mono-Water, we aren't using any of these. How do we compensate for their loss, and furthermore, how the hell do we get rid of opposing Ferrothorn? For some reason Specs Politoed's Focus Blast but that's the first thing that came to my head. I'll have to run some calculations when I get home. We're definitely going to need a Fighting-type move, preferably STAB. Poliwrath was mentioned earlier, and it can easily use a SubPunch set with Water Absorb. Iron Barbs is always a nasty problem, so that's something to be aware of.
 
Against Ferrothorn, I primarily do my utmost to burn it with Jellicent, as after the Burn, Gyarados can set up on it all day.

It should be noted to M Blade's Feraligatr idea that 252 HP/0 SDef will never survive Specs Latios Draco Metoer. However, no investment can surive non-Specs DM's and after a bit of investment will always do so.
 
Gyarados won't like eating a Thunder Wave, which Ferrothorn often carries. Gyara will need 6 Dragon Dances just to nullify the Speed drop. I'd rather use Jellicent to Burn then Taunt Ferrothorn, which won't hinder Gyarados from setting up further.
 
NixHex said:
Gyarados won't like eating a Thunder Wave, which Ferrothorn often carries. Gyara will need 6 Dragon Dances just to nullify the Speed drop. I'd rather use Jellicent to Burn then Taunt Ferrothorn, which won't hinder Gyarados from setting up further.
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Substitute Gyara...hell, even Taunt.
 
Well Jellicent also carries Taunt for me so :/ At any rate by the time WoW actually hits Ferro will be too busy setting up Spikes to predict the switch in and T-Wave.

Oh yeah, i was referring to Sub Gyara.
 
Yeah, SubGyara is the best set on Mono Water. It lets him more reliably beat Celebis and the like, and stops Ferrothorn from using Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, etc.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Against Ferrothorn, I primarily do my utmost to burn it with Jellicent, as after the Burn, Gyarados can set up on it all day.
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You still have to be wary of Curse Ferrothorn, though, who can set up right back at you if you lack Taunt.

Ferrothorn is certainly an annoying thing to take down - without being able to use Fire moves, you're limited to burning it and whittling away its health or using Fighting moves. Ludicolo and Politoed can Focus Blast for some damage, and a few Pokémon like Swampert, Feraligatr, etc. can Superpower, though you still need to find a chance to switch in. Non STAB Superpower probably won't KO unless you've got in a Swords Dance or something, and risking Politoed is a bad idea if they can still change the weather. I guess Bulk Up or Belly Drum Poliwrath is a possibility, but still not ideal... Maybe Ludicolo is the best bet, since it's immune to Leech Seed, resists Gyro Ball and takes neutral damage from Power Whip.
 
Now, I know Ferrothorn is a big threat, but running sunny day on a pure water team for this one threat is a bit... actually, is way too specific. Ferrothorn is still 2x weak to fire even in the rain, and throwing away a whole team of fire resistance to give one threat 8x weakness is overkill. I agree hp fighting or better fighting moves are the way to go here. The way people talk about ferrothorn, its like it's invincible in the rain. I really think there are bigger threats we need to consider than even ferrothorn.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Why does everyone think that a mono-water team must necessarily be a rain team?
If you have Drizzle in your team and no way to change the weather, you're going to have an extremely hard time dealing with Ferrothorn.
Without rain, many water types such as Slowbro (which learns Fire Blast) actually stand a chance against it.

If you still insist on having Politoed in your team, at least have a Sunny Day user to deal with Ferrothorn.
Luckily, many usable water types can learn it, such as Slowbro, Vaporeon, Octillery, Suicine and Ludicolo.
Sunny Day + HP Fire should be all you need to take Ferrothorn out.
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I'm sorry but this suggestion is plain bad. Sunny Day will cancel out the great water STAB that water types get and the useful fire resistance, and sunny day + hp fire is a HUGE waste of two moveslots, considering they're just for one poke. if you hate ferrothorn that much, try to fit in poliwrath on your team.
 
You're probably going to get Power Whipped unless you can get your sunny day user in before Ferro and get Ferro to come into it.

Out of most Rain Team potential members, bar Sap Sipper Azumarill (who gets paralyzed and/or entry hazards set up on it), only Slowbro stands much of a chance when it comes to taking a stab Power Whip. 360 base power factoring in SE and STAB is very very painful.

EDIT:
D'oh. Forgot about Empoleon, but Penguin Napoleon doesn't do that much in return with Ice Beam/Hydro Pump, while Leech Seed keeps Ferrothorn happy and Power Whip will still sting. D'oh again. Azumarill's Sap Sipper stops Leech Seed.

EDITEDIT:
Derp. Gyarados - especially bulky ones. And I guess Kingdra and Alomomola could take one.
 
Empoleon doesn't get Sap Sipper.

There's also Pelipper, Qwilfish and Tentacruel.

Defensive Spikes Qwilfish takes 35.4% - 41.7% from Standard Ferro Power Whip. Unfortunately, it can't do much else other than Taunt, Spike or Twave. Maybe Destiny Bond or something. EDIT: Forgot DW Qwilfish gets Intimidate, which causes Power Whip to do 23.7% - 28.2% instead.

Support Tentacruel takes 40.7% - 48.1%. Again though, it can't do much back, barring Rapid Spin or Screech.


Physical Wall Pelipper does 23.1% - 27.2% with Hurricane, and takes 28.8% - 33.7% from Power Whip. Roost isn't a great idea since Power Whip will then do SE damage, but with Rain Dish and Leftovers it could thoeratically stall Ferrothorn for a while and WW it out or something.
 
Too lazy to do a calc, but theoretically, now that I think about it, Alomomola with heavy defensive investment can Soak + Toxic, then stall the thing with Wish/Protect. It helps that Soak gets rid of STAB, although then Ferro is free to set up hazards and sap your health with Leech Seed. And Taunt from anything stops this heartfish.

@Dan Dan - yes, but I don't think Virizion is going to be switching into the many Ice attacks flying around, even with its sexy special bulk. Even then, there's a few things that can take a hit from it, like Gyarados, who KOs with Bounce, doesn't give two shits about Close Combat/Focus Blast and can take a Leaf Blade/Giga Drain or HP Ice. It does fear Stone Edge, but Intimidate softens the blow, and Stone Edge's shake accuracy and Bounce make it less threatening. And, if we're talking about SubGyara, it can fish for a Stone Miss with Sub.
 
What about CB Swampert? Lures in Ferrothorn and cleanly 2HKO's. (252/4 Ferrothorn takes 85,8% ~ 101,1% from CB Superpower while 252/252+ takes 64,8% ~ 76,7%)
 
Yes some of the ideas above are much better alternatives, and useful in more than one situation. I think (a few pages back even) the original plan for Ferro was to burn it (probably WoW, scald Jellicent) and then intimidate with Gyara and sub, proceeding to DD up. Power Whip shouldn't be breaking subs very fast as a neutral -2 move. Opposing water types concern me more, especially ones with water absorb. An enemy Jellicent could be a hard stop to nearly everything on a mono team bar Starmie (w/ t-bolt and as long as it doesn't have Hex, other STAB ghost) and Rotom-w (choiced tricking variations probably the best)
 
gyarados should have more problems with gastrodon who is immune to it's main STAB and ressist it's regular coverge (stone edge), ferro is not a problem if you burn it, still i prefer bulky-taunt Gyara over SubDD because of the ability to not be walled by skarm, posygon 2 shouldn't be taken lightly considering it can take a lot of hits and have bolt-beam (and thunder wave) to help him annoy your team, and my little pony isn't out yet
 
might as well start participating now cuz i wont finish my warstory anytime soon...

@above: gyarados should run bounce on two-attack sets, imo. much more power and better coverage.

also.. to everyone who says ferrothorn is unbeatable.... here. these are good sets (second one is gimmick) that can beat ferrothorn.

1. poliwrath
@leftovers
252hp/56def/200sp.def
water absorb
trait: careful
-sub
-bulk up
-focus punch
-waterfall/ice punch/earthquake

simple strategy. lure ferrothorn and switch in.
sub on the super obvious leech seed. bulk up as powerwhip breaks sub. bulk up again, power whip does less. sub, bulk up, repeat, watever, and then focus punch it. you might have to invest more in defense but watever. this thing also walls jellicent beacause it can touch it (unless it hass shadow ball) but poliwrath cant touch it either. im sure poliwrath outspeeds elly and sets up sub to block status, and then gets taunted. but jelly cant do shit. this also shits on gastrodon and vaporeon. substitute is your friend.

2. octillery
252hp/4def/252sp.attack
-suction cups/sniper
trait:modest
-soak
-sub
-energy ball
-toxic

this is super gimmicky. but if you really want to kill ferrothorn, use it. it also kills other pokes like non sub-cm jirachi. it also shits on gastrodon and vapreon and jellicent (common water immune pokes..)

there. thats my opinion on ferrothorn.


also. if you are running a mono-water team, you HAVE TO HAVE SHARPEDO, NO QUESTIONS BOUT IT
 
Someone mentioned Ludicolo earlier. I think it's notable for being the only Water-type (besides its pre-evolved forms) with an immunity to Leech Seed, as well as the only Water-type who gets it for itself.
 
NixHex said:
Someone mentioned Ludicolo earlier. I think it's notable for being the only Water-type (besides its pre-evolved forms) with an immunity to Leech Seed, as well as the only Water-type who gets it for itself.
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Sap Sipper Azumarill and Liquid Ooze Tentacruel are immune to Leech Seed. While, the latter is kind of.

So what's the general idea so far? Drizzle Balanced using Politoed/Gyarados/Rotom-W/Tentacruel/Empoleon? The sixth slot probably being kind of open to fit in a counter to whatever threat one is thinking of?
 
i say poliwrath, azumarill, or sharpedo.

poliwrath shits on ferrothorn

azumarill can somewhat counter grass types

sharpedo can outspeed and OHKO nasty plot celebi
 
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