Prop 8: Great riddance, or GREATEST riddance?

I think the institution of the family as a man and a woman is THE most important institution in society. Legalizing gay marriage is a line that I don't feel comfortable crossing under any circumstances. It's a change in a society that has developed for thousands of years around the premise of a man and a woman raising a family. It's not just giving gays marriage rights; it is changing the whole view of marriage in our world. Apparently, a majority of people in California agree with me while one judge doesn't. Even if I stand with the idiots, I'm proud to do it.
Honestly go fuck yourself. You not only admit that you want to stick with tradition even if it denies minorities certain rights, but you are proud to do so.

The judge disagrees with the idiots because while they are concerned with tradition, he is concerned with justice.

Even better, your entire argument could have been used just a few decades ago for interracial marriage. Go back even further and slavery was a tradition for centuries. Blacks don't deserve their rights because tradition is more important than justice, right?


It doesn't make logical sense that society is based on reproduction and having children?

It's not necessarily the immediate negative effects, but the social implications that are brought up by it. Marriage, a religious/civil institution made to have children without social repercussions, should be extended for reasons not to bear children? It doesn't really make sense.
We do not forbid older women from marrying, nor do we prevent sterile people from marrying. Do you know why? It is because marriage is not about reproduction. Where does it state that marriage was created specifically for that purpose? I'm pretty sure that is how you want to define it.

Also if it is all about raising children/reproduction then I better see you fighting to outlaw divorce, and marriage for women above a certain age.
 
No matter what it was 'founded on' in our current society marriage is not about having children and it is about people making emotional commitments to each other. People that are unable to have children or are not planning on having children get married all the time.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
It doesn't make logical sense that society is based on reproduction and having children? Maybe I read that wrong, because every single living animal in existence that I am aware of is based on the process of reproduction, and our society is no different. That shouldn't change.

It's not necessarily the immediate negative effects, but the social implications that are brought up by it. Marriage, a religious/civil institution made to have children without social repercussions, should be extended for reasons not to bear children? It doesn't really make sense.

As I see it, what gays want is not marriage, but a way to show love for each other and a way to bond with each other, along with physical representation for that. Of course, marriage would fulfill that, but that is not the basis of marriage. It is because of the strong physical basis of marriage (sex without social reprove) and then the strong feelings associated with sex that marriage entails of strong emotional bonds to each other. In that case, marriage vows are not what they are looking for. The roots are not right. It would have to be a totally different social institution founded not on the birthing of children but instead on an emotional bond.

That probably sounded stupid but it makes sense in my head. If you can't tell I'm bad at putting my thoughts to text :\
You really do live in your own little world. Marriage is not based on bearing children and using animals as an example when most do not "marry" for life isn't helping you support that claim.
 
Honestly go fuck yourself. You not only admit that you want to stick with tradition even if it denies minorities certain rights, but you are proud to do so.

The judge disagrees with the idiots because while they are concerned with tradition, he is concerned with justice.

Even better, your entire argument could have been used just a few decades ago for interracial marriage. Go back even further and slavery was a tradition for centuries. Blacks don't deserve their rights because tradition is more important than justice, right?
Marriage has been defined. It is a man and a woman together with the intention of raising a family. Don't call me or anyone an idiot for standing with this belief. It's not idiotic. Gays can get the rights. They can get the physical representation they want with Civil Union or something, but marriage is not a boy and a boy, a girl and a girl.

What if I bring up the other minority groups that would and are scrambling for rights? Polygamists for instance. They want their rights just like gays do, and really what they are asking for is not all that different. They have as much of a troubled history as gays do, yet society has shunned them and still does, just as we have put down gays. I am in no way supporting polygamists, but the precedent set by allowing gay marriage makes way for so many other minorities to clamor for their own rights.

I don't mean tradition trumps justice. I mean that marriage traditionally has been defined as between a man and a woman with the intention of starting a family, and the definition of that should not change on a whim. Instead we should come up with a different term that entails what a gay institution would be.
 
I'm glad that this debate is over, I mean, nearly 2 years to just overturn it. I'm glad that California can now focus on more important things like our economy.
 
Marriage has been defined. It is a man and a woman together with the intention of raising a family. Don't call me or anyone an idiot for standing with this belief. It's not idiotic. Gays can get the rights. They can get the physical representation they want with Civil Union or something, but marriage is not a boy and a boy, a girl and a girl.
Is this the legal definition? I'm pretty sure it isn't because you are not legally obligated to have children after marriage, and they let infertile people marry.


What if I bring up the other minority groups that would and are scrambling for rights? Polygamists for instance. They want their rights just like gays do, and really what they are asking for is not all that different. They have as much of a troubled history as gays do, yet society has shunned them and still does, just as we have put down gays. I am in no way supporting polygamists, but the precedent set by allowing gay marriage makes way for so many other minorities to clamor for their own rights.

I don't mean tradition trumps justice. I mean that marriage traditionally has been defined as between a man and a woman with the intention of starting a family, and the definition of that should not change on a whim. Instead we should come up with a different term that entails what a gay institution would be.
Polygamy has nothing to do with this thread. People are also not genetically inclined to be polygamists whereas evidence strongly suggests that people don't simply pick their sexuality like they pick their clothing.

edit: Technically all humans are inclined to be polygamists since we don't naturally seek to be with one mate for life, just like most other animals. Anyway it is still irrelevant. Polygamy has nothing to do with gay marriage, and if we do one day legalize polygamy then so be it.

On the bolded: Oh no! What would we ever do if those dreaded minorities weren't discriminated against and denied their rights!!!

Slippery slope argument is not a good argument for denying a group certain rights.

Marriage has been defined as that by certain religious groups. However, it has not legally been defined as that. So... there is a reason to change the definition legally to allow for people of the same gender to marry just like there was a reason a couple decades ago to change the definition to allow for people of different races to marry.

Society isn't fucking static. Society changes and the people against that change need to suck it up. 52% of people in California are against this. That isn't that big of a majority. People are willing to change the definition of marriage. A large number of people are willing to move on.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Marriage has been defined. It is a man and a woman together with the intention of raising a family.
That is not the definition of marriage. That is your definition of marriage - one that many people would disagree with.
 
Marriage has been defined. It is a man and a woman together with the intention of raising a family.
OK. it's settled. Gay couples, straight couples with one or more members who are infertile or past the age at which having a child is feasible, straight couples who have decided that they don't want children, and straight couples who simply haven't decided whether they want children, should not be allowed to marry. After all, such a marriage wouldn't fit our definition of marriage and thus shouldn't be allowed. Unless of course adoption (or artificial insemination) counts, in which case some of these couples are still excluded.
 
This is my definition of marriage: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html

And that is what I founded the rest of my thoughts on. It's not going to persuade you in any way, but at least you can possibly concieve of a argument against gay marriage now instead of just calling me an idiot. I believe that to be true. It's an immovable pillar that I can base my other other stuff around because I believe it is true. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it unless I'm arguing with you guys, which I'm not (or at least not trying to :\ ). I'm stating what I believe. If that made some semblance of sense, which hopefully it did, I'll be happy. I'm not trying to get you guys to change a point of view. But hopefully you can see for a second why people don't want gay marriages instead of us all being clumped a idiots.
 
This is my definition of marriage: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html

But hopefully you can see for a second why people don't want gay marriages instead of us all being clumped a idiots.
Your definition is meaningless in this debate because it is not the legal definition. Sorry.

Yeah I can see the reasons, but I can't see any good reasons. Nor can I see any consistent reasons. You don't want to deny marriage to the infertile, the unwilling, or the elderly, but you want to deny it to gays. Your logic has to do with marriage and procreation, but you only seem to want to apply that definition when gays want to marry.

Your argument is essentially a religious one. I'd prefer the state to not enforce a specific religion on the people.
 
It's not meaningless because I believe it, so it can form the basis of my opinion.

Here's one easy way to say it: I believe in marriage between a man and a woman, whether they be infertile, unwilling, or elderly, but I don't agree with marriage between a man and a woman. The reason is I am Godfearing and that is what His prophet has told us, and that is the same reason for almost any other person that voted against Prop 8 in the first place. The reasons are there. The people can choose to believe and base opinions on these beliefs.
 
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
from the Treaty of Tripoli article 11

The united states is a secular country and we should not make laws based on peoples religious opinions. If your church does not want to marry homosexuals or recognize their marriages, fine. but the state should offer equal protection to all people.
 

Fatecrashers

acta est fabula
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Artist Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Last time I checked the USA was a democracy not a theocracy. In fact, the more prominent Founding Fathers such as Jefferson and Franklin were pretty damn vocal about their opposition to organised religion.
 

mingot

free agent
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Top Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
It's not meaningless because I believe it, so it can form the basis of my opinion.

Here's one easy way to say it: I believe in marriage between a man and a woman, whether they be infertile, unwilling, or elderly, but I don't agree with marriage between a man and a woman. The reason is I am Godfearing and that is what His prophet has told us, and that is the same reason for almost any other person that voted against Prop 8 in the first place. The reasons are there. The people can choose to believe and base opinions on these beliefs.
Ok. You've got that out in the open now. Since it's not backed up by anything other than "It's what I believe", I think you're done posting in this thread. And what I meant by that last sentence was "Don't post in this thread anymore". Unless, of course, it's something with some substance.
 
it would be so much easier to have these debates if people weren't able to "justify" their anti-gay feelings with religion.
 
Wow, 4 pages before Deck Knight, I'm shocked.

Back when Prop 8 hadn't passed yet, there was an argument from the proponents that their children would be forced to learn about homosexuality in schools. Does anyone know if:

1. Prop 8 had anything to do with this
2. There is indeed a California law that lets parents pull their children out of a curriculum they don't agree with, because I've heard that

And even if the answers are "yes" and "no": lol, racists complaining about schools teaching children that black people are not inferior to white people.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
No part of California law mandated any kind of teaching homosexuality in schools, ever.
 
Atheists can get married because the religious definition of marriage is not a union between two Christians/Muslims/etc but a union between a man and a woman.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. When a straight couple gets married, who don't happen to be religious, then marriage is "not a religious institution". But when two gay people get married, all of a sudden people start saying they need to protect the sanctity of marriage.

The same goes for the arguement that marriage is based on raising a family. When sterile couples/older people/couples who don't want kids get married its A-OK, but when homosexuals want to marry they are denied because they can't procreate. Double standards much?
 

Fatecrashers

acta est fabula
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Artist Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I agree absolutely it's double standards. Some people are just uncomfortable with the idea of two people of the same gender getting married, plain and simple. That's why they come up with the religious argument, which doesn't work. And then there's the procreation argument, which is even more ridiculous. People will use any established institution to hide their prejudices.
 
The worst part of all this is that people only opposed gay marriage because their church has made them sheep. The only argument against homosexual relationships that doesn't involve "god said it's bad" is "it's gross." That is the only one I've ever heard ever. So, really, there is no reason at all to oppose it. None, except "I'm a giant bigot in denial."
 
I still don't understand why some Christians use the Bible as their excuse for opposing same sex marriage when there are (at least) two huge flaws with that. The first one is the Bible says to love thy neighbor and avoid passing judgment on others, which is exactly what opponents of same sex marriage are not doing. Secondly, there are tons and tons of passages about stoning women who cheat on their husbands, not eating pork (or some other type of meat) because it's an abomination, and a multitude of other harsh rules that society doesn't follow today. Homosexuality is only mentioned in the Bible six times and I feel that the specific, crude passages that harbor animosity toward gays (and also those that say to stone your wife and avoid touching pig skin) that are reflective of society thousands of years ago should be abandoned in exchange for the more general messages of love.

Anyway, I don't normally watch Fox News but I came across this video of Ted Olson (one of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs) breaking down the legal aspects of the case. He's a very eloquent man and I'm glad someone like him is spearheading the effort to overturn marriage inequality.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4305716/ted-olson-on-fns/
 
Christians in general are cool. It's those that espouse centuries-old beliefs such as intolerance of science/other religions/lifestyles/sexualities that need to be informed that things have changed in the last 2000 years. The Bible, Koran, Talmud, Gita, Dianetics (lol) and whatever holy books you pick are all works of man, and should be analyzed in such a context.

In regards to Prop 8, this is a welcome change, but I'm disappointed that the proposition was passed in the first place. For one, it underscores the power of special interest groups to influence votes (the LDS pumping in money for an anti-gay cause) and the general public inertia towards supporting equality of sexualities
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I fail to see why gay rights activists don't see the obvious flaw in their strategy of making this a 14th Amendment issue as opposed to an Establishment clause issue - the problem that religious conservatives have with gay marriage (at least the honest ones speaking in good faith) is that it, in theory, forces churches to perform marriages that violate the precepts of their religion, because someone thought it'd be an awesome idea to make make the religious ceremony and the secular contract the same fucking thing.

So to boil it down:

You have Church authorities performing State functions.

Thus, by simply decreeing that gays can get married, you violate the 1st Amendment.
By denying this to gays, you violate the 14th Amendment.

So what is the only reasonable solution? Separate the civil contract from the religious ceremony, remove from the religious authority the State power to legally recognize marriages, so we can stop fucking talking about it already. It's such a simple fucking solution, but apparently, neither the Left nor the Right want to actually try it.

Also, I briefly skimmed Deck's argument, the crux of which is:


The other camp believes that marriage is a societal institution established to encourage the ideal unit for raising children and continuing a functioning society.
, but I *think* what it boils down to is not so much religious prejudice, but another view which *I* find morally repellent, which is the concept of the State as defender of social order, which is not only deeply un-American (seeing that America is ideologically founded on Enlightenment Classical Liberalism despite its deeply Christian social roots, and the concept noted above is pretty much theantithesisof Enlightenment Classical Liberalism) but repugnant to my anti-statist sensibilities. There is a reason the Founders refused to establish a national church like the English (despite the English also being a Liberal Enlightenment culture), there is a reason why they limited the power of the State to the unprecedented extent that they did (and keep in mind that the Constitution was a huge step forward in state power compared to the Articles) - there is a reason why the First Amendment was...first (there is a reason why the original text of the Amendment did not place any limits on speech, including speech that might undermine the traditional order - they did not intend any). The original intent of American republicanism is utterly inconsistent with the concept of government defending *any* traditional order, including that of marriage.

Of course, the idea that the majority gets to decides universal rights, or even the rights under the Constitution, is something that is opposed by both Liberalism and Conservatism; the idea of absolute majority rule is more appropriate to Marxism and Fascism. Again, we look to the founders and notice that not only did they create an "upper house" that originally wasn't even electable by the people, they created a supreme court, also unelectable by the people, AND holding office for life, to interpret the law. Again, the original intent of the Founding was utterly opposed to total majority rule - why else did they put so many roadblocks to it?

Keep in mind majorities were against integration (though I oppose on principle the forced integration of private institutions, though that's a matter for another thread), and integration was essentially enshrined by "judicial activism" (never mind that both sides tend to protest only the judicial activism they dislike - I could point out a whole bevy of Supreme Court opinions that could only be considered judicial activism that conservatives applauded; the refusal to extend 1st Amendment protections to obscene or seditious speech cannot be considered "original intent" in any way, shape or form).

In short, the defenders of traditional marriage will do far more service for their cause by focusing their efforts to strengthen heterosexual love and heterosexual marriage (which is in dire straits at this point in time - culturally it is under assault from all quarters, while the economic incentives for marriage have been undermined for close to half a century, starting with the woefully misnamed "Great Society") than to waste their efforts acting as a vehicle for anti-gay prejudices.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I fail to see why gay rights activists don't see the obvious flaw in their strategy of making this a 14th Amendment issue as opposed to an Establishment clause issue - the problem that religious conservatives have with gay marriage (at least the honest ones speaking in good faith) is that it, in theory, forces churches to perform marriages that violate the precepts of their religion, because someone thought it'd be an awesome idea to make make the religious ceremony and the secular contract the same fucking thing.
I'm just going to focus on this part of your post, since otherwise we'd be discussing the merits of the forced integration of private institutions and the Great Society, neither of which are particularly relevant to this topic.

Anyway, the secular and religious services are actually entirely separate here. No church will be forced to recognize or perform marriage ceremonies for homosexual couples if homosexual marriage were legal. The actual legal recognition of marriage comes from simply going down to wherever they give out marriage licenses in your state and filling out the relevant paperwork in front of an officiant and possibly in the presence of a witness (depending on the state). It is a process which the churches are uninvolved in, unless they want to be.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I fail to see why gay rights activists don't see the obvious flaw in their strategy of making this a 14th Amendment issue as opposed to an Establishment clause issue - the problem that religious conservatives have with gay marriage (at least the honest ones speaking in good faith) is that it, in theory, forces churches to perform marriages that violate the precepts of their religion, because someone thought it'd be an awesome idea to make make the religious ceremony and the secular contract the same fucking thing.
I would like to point out for probably the 30th time that the institutions are not the same. A religious marriage does not require a legal contract, and a legal marriage does not require a religious ceremony. Under your logic, churches are forced to wed atheists and people of other religions, which is obviously not true.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top