Other Psychic Typing

[Jaroda]

Psychic resists: Psychic x.5, Steel x.5, Dark x0 vs Flying resists: Rock x.5, Steel x.5, Electric x.5

Psychic weaknesses: Poison x2, Fighting x2 vs Flying weaknesses: Bug x2, Grass x2, Fighting x2

I fail to see Psychic's superiority offensively. Both are ineffective against three types, both being Steels, but Psychic can't touch Dark at all. Meanwhile only two things are weak to Psychic opposed to Flying, both being effective against Fighting. And finally the average BP of Flying moves is far higher than Psychic moves in OU like Brave Bird, Aerialate Return and Hurricane. The only Psychic move with a BP over 100 is from Deoxys-S.

Psychic is not superior to Flying offensively. The only realy advantage Psychic has over Flying as a type in general is not being weak to Stealth Rock, but even then Flying is immune to Spikes to make up for that somewhat.

 

[Slens]

Offensively Psychics don't have heavy hitting attacks like other types (i.e. Fire has Fire Blast, Flare Blitz and Fighting has CC,HJK, etc.). Psycho Boost and Psystrike are limited to Deoxys and Mewtwo. Future Sight and Dream Eater aren't viable options, not to mention most Psychics have to rely on Focus Miss for coverage against Dark and Steel.

It's even worse for physically-based Psychic types when your only STAB options are 70 BP Psycho Cut and a 90 accuracy Zen Headbutt.
The new Gen didn't bring any new toys for Psychics to play with and actually beefed up two of its weaknesses with the Steel nerf. Also Knock Off buff just twisted the knife on them essentially.

As far as defensively goes all you need to do is look at Cresselia. 120/120/130 defenses plus a Ground immunity and nowhere near UU. Just sad really.

 

[Zebstrika]

The biggest problem I have with psychic types is how hard it is for the rest of the team to cover the ghost and dark weakness, and if for example aegislash can come in, throw a shadow ball at your psychic type and you have nothing to switch in, that's pretty annoying.

 

[Rotosect]

As far as defensively goes all you need to do is look at Cresselia. 120/120/130 defenses plus a Ground immunity and nowhere near UU. Just sad really.

As much as I agree that Psychic is a crap type, it's not Cresselia's main issue. Lugia has an even worse type but it's uber (even before it got Multiscale) because it's not a sitting duck like she is.
If she had something resembling actual offensive presence, she would probably be a mainstay in OU.

 

[mrglass]

Psychic resists: Psychic x.5, Steel x.5, Dark x0 vs Flying resists: Rock x.5, Steel x.5, Electric x.5

Psychic weaknesses: Poison x2, Fighting x2 vs Flying weaknesses: Bug x2, Grass x2, Fighting x2

I fail to see Psychic's superiority offensively. Both are ineffective against three types, both being Steels, but Psychic can't touch Dark at all. Meanwhile only two things are weak to Psychic opposed to Flying, both being effective against Fighting. And finally the average BP of Flying moves is far higher than Psychic moves in OU like Brave Bird, Aerialate Return and Hurricane. The only Psychic move with a BP over 100 is from Deoxys-S.

Psychic is not superior to Flying offensively. The only realy advantage Psychic has over Flying as a type in general is not being weak to Stealth Rock, but even then Flying is immune to Spikes to make up for that somewhat.

The way I see it Psychic is slightly redundant with Fairy and Flying is redundant with Fire. But because the Fairy typing is new, Fairy type moves aren't that well distributed, and there aren't many out there.

I'd also argue that Rock and Electric are more common typings than Psychic and Dark.

Psychic is also capable of hitting specially and physically with Psyshock and Psychic, while outside of rain, the best flying option is Air Slash, which is pretty much only used on Togekiss.

It's close, but I've got to say Psychic edges out. That's not really saying much though. They are both below average offensively.

 

[Mood4food77]

Earthquake immunity isn't an offensive property. I agree Flying>Psychic overall, but Psychic is a better type offensively.

flying doesn't have an offensive immunities while psychic does
they both have the same amount of types resisting their attacks but psychic has an immunity
flying also hits more types for SE damage than psychic does

so please tell me again how psychic is the better offensive type?

there are currently 3 pokemon in OU that are electric type and 1 rock type compared to 6 dark types and 4 psychic types

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I still think it sucks psychic type did not get the rumored resistance to fairy. Would've made Pokemon like the latis, and to a lesser extent, Pokemon like gallade, more viable.

As an offensive typing, psychic isn't so bad, especially since the majority of psychic type attackers are extremely fast and boast high special attack, along with just enough coverage to compensate for their resistances. Many carry shadow ball and focus blast.

It's defensively where things come crashing down. Weaknesses to dark, ghost, and bug and resisting nothing but psychic and poison (whose moves have a high chance to inflict poison or toxic making the resistance pretty crappy).

Also, most psychic types don't have high defenses. I wouldn't rush to argue against that via slowbro/king and latias because their psychic typing is a liability. Pure psychic type, or defensive Pokemon like xatu are held back by really low defensive stats and low HP making them easy to take out.

Do I think the psychic type is bad.....no. But do I think it's good? Definitely not.

Actually psychic resists Fighting, not Poison.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I mean, look at this:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 331-390 (131.3 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's an extreme example I know, but seriously...

Yeah it is. M-Medicham's HJK is the most powerful attack in the game and Alakazam has the defenses of a toddler. If Alakazam were Fairy/Steel it wouldn't matter because it doesn't have the bulk to take even resisted physical hits.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 119-141 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is a more relevant calc. Slowbro is a good example of a defensive psychic type that actually benefits from its psychic typing. It completely walls the hardest hitting fighting type in the game, which it couldn't if were mono water. (cham can break through if it has Thunder Punch, but not all sets can afford to carry it.) It generally walls nearly all fighting types, even those with Knock Off (buffing knock off was the worst balance change ever I swear, but Slowbro can take it anyway.)

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

There's also the Lati's, which are some of the best answers to Keldeo.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 226-267 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Latias was changed to mono-dragon there. Without Psychic typing it wouldn't be able to switch into Keldeo that well.

Sure, Lati@s are super vulnerable to pursuit and could potentially benefit from being mono-dragon, but the secondary typing does allow them to take on a super dangerous attacker.

I agree that psychic typing is awful defensively, but it does have one useful resistance. But Slowbro is about the only thing that can use its Psychic typing defensively because it's pretty much designed to be an answer to fighting types, Lati@s just has the added advantage of being able to counter Keldeo (they're not great answers to other fighting types because they don't have the bulk to take Knock Off or Ice Punch.)

 

[Karxrida]

The way I see it Psychic is slightly redundant with Fairy and Flying is redundant with Fire. But because the Fairy typing is new, Fairy type moves aren't that well distributed, and there aren't many out there.

I'd also argue that Rock and Electric are more common typings than Psychic and Dark.

Psychic is also capable of hitting specially and physically with Psyshock and Psychic, while outside of rain, the best flying option is Air Slash, which is pretty much only used on Togekiss.

It's close, but I've got to say Psychic edges out. That's not really saying much though. They are both below average offensively.

How are Psychic and Fairy redundant? THE ONLY THING IN COMMON THEY HIT SUPER EFFECTIVELY IS FIGHTING.

Psychic beats Poison, which Fairy is weak to. Fairy beats Dark, which is immune to Psychic.

Where the hell do you get your reasoning?

 

[LoDart210]

Basically, to sum up, while the psychic type itself is defensively subpar and offensively decent, its Pokemon not doing well in the meta, psychic type attacks have very good niches that keep it form obscurity, namely:

Defeating mega venusaur, keldeo, terrakion, and conkeldurr.

Able to resist key fighting types (again keldeo) and conkeldurr.

Giving special attackers a way to bypass special walls (psyshock).

In that case, maybe we can discuss ways to make current weak psychic type more viable?

 

[Ninja Charizard]

How are Psychic and Fairy redundant? THE ONLY THING IN COMMON THEY HIT SUPER EFFECTIVELY IS FIGHTING.

Psychic beats Poison, which Fairy is weak to. Fairy beats Dark, which is immune to Psychic.

Where the hell do you get your reasoning?

He said slightly redundant. Adding a psychic type to your fairy only gives you offensive advantage against poison, and not againt fighting (unless it's a fire/steel/poison and fighting mon, but none of those are very common).

 

[Flechazo]

How are Psychic and Fairy redundant? THE ONLY THING IN COMMON THEY HIT SUPER EFFECTIVELY IS FIGHTING.

Psychic beats Poison, which Fairy is weak to. Fairy beats Dark, which is immune to Psychic.

Where the hell do you get your reasoning?

Well, considering that Psychic only super-effectively hits Fighting and Poison, the only relevant one being Fighting half the time, overall Psychic is effectively redundant. At the very least it's not worthwhile compared to the offensive benefits of the Fairy type. Unless one gets Psychic STAB, there is no incentive to use that type in lieu of another, especially when a Fairy/Ground core will do the job.

It's a necessary evil, in my opinion, on offensive Pokemon in order to get past Venusaur.

Any Flying type can do this job. If you're feeling gutsy, even Togekiss can do it, despite a weakness to Poison, with ParaFlinch. I'd say even the incentive to use Psychic against Venusaur when Flying is more reliable and has utility outside of beating (Mega) Venusaur is slim to none.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Well, considering that Psychic only super-effectively hits Fighting and Poison, the only relevant one being Fighting half the time, overall Psychic is effectively redundant. At the very least it's not worthwhile compared to the offensive benefits of the Fairy type. Unless one gets Psychic STAB, there is no incentive to use that type in lieu of another, especially when a Fairy/Ground core will do the job.

Psyshock is useful on offensive Sylveon, even though it isn't STAB, as it allows it to hurt all poison types. HP ground won't do the job against Venusaur (although it still is pretty necessary).

 

[Flechazo]

While that may be true, Sylveon just doesn't have the room to include Psyshock, since it's best set includes Wish/Heal Bell/Hyper Voice/Protect. Also, I don't think Sylveon actually wants to stay in on most Poison types; it's simply too slow.

 

[Aragorn the King]

While that may be true, Sylveon just doesn't have the room to include Psyshock, since it's best set includes Wish/Heal Bell/Hyper Voice/Protect. Also, I don't think Sylveon actually wants to stay in on most Poison types; it's simply too slow.

I was talking about Specs Sylveon, which is actually remarkably good. But yeah, Clerical Sylveon can't fit it.

 

[Flechazo]

I haven't seen Specs Sylveon too much on the ladder; it doesn't seem that common. But even with Specs, it still has a speed issue, so Psyshock becomes more situation-al, in that sense, to hit Chansey/Blissey or really slow Poison types. A strong physical Poison move, like Poison Jab, will kill it.

But getting back on topic, because of the aforementioned issues, Sylveon would not be using Psyshock often for its Psychic typing. Rather, it would be using it for its effect of hitting opposing mons physically.

 

[Albacore]

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with Psychic STAB is how weak its BP is. The best available special Psychic move has 90 BP, which isn't too bad, but how often do you see Flamethrower chosen over Fire Blast or Surf over Hydro Pump? Alakazam would kill to have a Psychic Fire Blast, or even Psycho Boost. After all, Draco Meteor is almost always chosen over Dragon Pulse, and you can bet that Deoxys-S would not be OU if its best offensive move was Psychic. I guess you could argue that Psychic-types have Psyshock to hit special walls, but that move is so painfully weak that it's not worth considering most of the time. I mean, just look at this calc :

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 297-351 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And that's against Blissey. Chansey is barely 3HKO'd.

And things are even worse on the physical side. You get to choose between the 90% Accuracy Zen Headbutt, or Psycho Cut, which has the same BP as Gen V Hidden Power. The only type with worse BP moves is Ghost, and at least that can boast having the lest resistances of any type in the game alongside Dragon, although being resisted by the omnipresent Dark isn't great. It's still better than Psychic being fully resisted by it, which enables Greninja, Bisharp, and Crawdaunt to freely switch in (and trust me, you do not want to give a free switch-in to Craudunt). Psychic is also resisted by Steel, which is, if I'm not mistaken, the most common type in OU.

Oh, and there is no Psychic-type priority. That's a very unfortunate aspect of Psychic, especially in this hyper-offensive priority-filled metagame. If Flying is the best offensive type in OU (which it arguably is), it's not because of its type coverage, it's due to the combination of high-powered moves and priority that type offers.

I never, ever told myself to pack Psychic resist. And although that often happens accidentally (Steel is still ridiculously broken defensively despite the buffs), I don't ever actually need one, since all you need to resist Psychic is existent bulk. Here's another calc for you :

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 348-410 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then it Knocks Off, and finishes you with Mach Punch.

AV Conkeldurr : Mega-Alakazam check.

Now, here's the same calc with a 110 BP Psychic :

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 422-500 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

See, that's much better! You can even defeat it with priority! Sure, you'll be severely weakened afterwards, but you can get some chip damage on Talonflame before it revenge kills you! Look :

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic (40 BP Priority) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 111-132 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Everything is solved with priority!

So basically, all you need to fix the Psychic typing is simply give it better moves. It won't make it good, per se, but at least it won't be the terrible joke it is now.

 

[ColtCababa]

The biggest problem I have with psychic types is how hard it is for the rest of the team to cover the ghost and dark weakness, and if for example aegislash can come in, throw a shadow ball at your psychic type and you have nothing to switch in, that's pretty annoying.

This. A pretty big negative I've seen in common dual-typed Psychic-types is that their Psychic-typing itself is mostly redundant and offers little to subpar STAB coverage. Starmie, for example, usually doesn't run a Psychic STAB, which is the only real benefit of it, and only serves to give it weaknesses to Pursuit and U-Turn otherwise. Because of the Steel nerf, only Dark-types resist Ghost and Dark, and that alone is pretty much limited to, in OU, Mandibuzz (one of the few Dark-types not hit SE by Fighting), Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Weavile, not counting Megas, with the latter two having measly defensive stats to switch in.

 

[HauntedPumpkin]

Yeah, the typing really needs a buff defensively (offensively too but let's not aim too high lol). This Gen is an absolute terror to the typing, I've always found it unfair how pretty much every Fighting-type in existence had something (and could use it effectively) to deal with Ghost- and Psychic- mons, so their resistance is more often than not not even perceptible, not to mention their bad average defensive stats to take on those attacks. At least Ghost is immune to it, at the cost of not hitting it SE, I guess. And now they have to deal with an incredibly broken move in Knock Off (on top of U-Turn, which is a big con to have imo), which has no immunities (typing-wise) and everything that gets it has to have an actual good reason not to run it.

It doesn't matter if the Latis counter Keldeo, or Slowbro counters every Fighting-type because of it. I can assure you any Psychic mon would rather have Fairy over it, and that's just ridiculous! The pros definitely don't outweigh the cons here!

 

[Albacore]

Actually, the comparison between Psychic and Flying is pretty interesting, since Flying gets right everything Psychic gets wrong. Not only does Flying have an offensive immunity, as well as powerful moves and priority (on the physical side at least, the special side really needs work), but look at the types which resist it : Rock, Steel, and Electric. These three types happen to be very easy to cover, not only due to their shared weakness to Ground, but also due to the fact that they do not exactly deal well with Fighting either. Why do you think Mega-Pinsir is so hard to counter? Earthquake covers pretty much everything Return and Quick attack don't.

Now look at what resists Psychic : Psychic, Dark, and Steel. How the hell do you deal with that? Well, Bug covers Psychic and Dark, Fighting covers Dark and Steel, and Ghost is a good option to deal with other Psychics. But each of these types are resisted by another Psychic resistance! Steel resists Bug, Psychic resists Fighting, and Dark resists Ghost! It's almost as is Psychic coverage was specifically designed to suck as much as it can with the least resistances possible! Psychic types have no choice but to run 3 coverage moves because of this. In most cases, those moves are Shadow Ball and Focus Blast.

But wait! Don't these two moves have perfect coverage together? Why, yes they do! Such is Psychic STAB's baffling awfulness that most Psychic-types have to run perfect unstabbed coverage so as to not get walled. In fact, it's quite common to see Reuniclus without any STAB! After all, why waste a moveslot on Psyshock when you could just run perfect coverage and still have space for both Calm Mind and Recover! If it carries STAB, CM Reuniclus actually risks getting walled by either Dark-types or Psychic-types. You cannot look at me in the eye and tell me that Reuniclus wouldn't rather be a Ghost type, or a Fighting type, or even a Normal type, or literally anything else than a Psychic type.

Psychic-types aren't just terrible defensively : they are the type with the the absolute worst offensive synergy with other types. Heck, even Normal is much better, since Normal-types can easily get away with running Normal-Ghost coverage this gen! After all, it's only walled by Tyranitar and Bisharp! That's some really good coverage right there!

(and btw, in case I haven't made it clear, Psychic is many, many, many times worse an offensive typing than Flying in every concievable way)

 

[Terminate421]

Espeon is a bad pokemon in todays ou, its only been mediocre last gen. Screens are more of a burden to carry because of the inevitable defog. Her defenses are horrible, she gets killed by practically any somewhat offensive pokemon and the insane distribution among pokemon who can learn knock off is the final nail in the coffin.

You can try it on showdown, this is where I play, the screens are removed or used to anyways.

You are totally convinced when you hate something don't you? Keep it up, it's cute to watch when people don't have a particular reason for it.

In the official game (Which we mostly talk about here since it is the actual game), Screens are not affected by Defog. Her defenses are not great, I understand that fully, that is where the screens come in. They grant her a decent amount of survivability and then she can support the team.

I have a better question for you, why the flying fuck would you keep her in on something that is using Knock-off? That's like me keeping a Garchomp (Unboosted or Scarfed) on a Weavile.

Yes her defenses are not great, this is a unique thing known as a flaw. Flaws are things that just about every pokemon has, something that is used to kill it. Espeon is somewhat frail, but she's fast enough to get off whatever she needs to before being hit by something she won't like. Now tell me, what does this say about the Psychic type?

Nothing.

Psychic has changed roles, not affected what pokemon are useful, understand that or be left behind.

 

[mrglass]

Actually, the comparison between Psychic and Flying is pretty interesting, since Flying gets right everything Psychic gets wrong. Not only does Flying have an offensive immunity, as well as powerful moves and priority (on the physical side at least, the special side really needs work), but look at the types which resist it : Rock, Steel, and Electric. These three types happen to be very easy to cover, not only due to their shared weakness to Ground, but also due to the fact that they do not exactly deal well with Fighting either. Why do you think Mega-Pinsir is so hard to counter? Earthquake covers pretty much everything Return and Quick attack don't.

Now look at what resists Psychic : Psychic, Dark, and Steel. How the hell do you deal with that? Well, Bug covers Psychic and Dark, Fighting covers Dark and Steel, and Ghost is a good option to deal with other Psychics. But each of these types are resisted by another Psychic resistance! Steel resists Bug, Psychic resists Fighting, and Dark resists Ghost! It's almost as is Psychic coverage was specifically designed to suck as much as it can with the least resistances possible! Psychic types have no choice but to run 3 coverage moves because of this. In most cases, those moves are Shadow Ball and Focus Blast.

But wait! Don't these two moves have perfect coverage together? Why, yes they do! Such is Psychic STAB's baffling awfulness that most Psychic-types have to run perfect unstabbed coverage so as to not get walled. In fact, it's quite common to see Reuniclus without any STAB! After all, why waste a moveslot on Psyshock when you could just run perfect coverage and still have space for both Calm Mind and Recover! If it carries STAB, CM Reuniclus actually risks getting walled by either Dark-types or Psychic-types. You cannot look at me in the eye and tell me that Reuniclus wouldn't rather be a Ghost type, or a Fighting type, or even a Normal type, or literally anything else than a Psychic type.

Psychic-types aren't just terrible defensively : they are the type with the the absolute worst offensive synergy with other types. Heck, even Normal is much better, since Normal-types can easily get away with running Normal-Ghost coverage this gen! After all, it's only walled by Tyranitar and Bisharp! That's some really good coverage right there!

(and btw, in case I haven't made it clear, Psychic is many, many, many times worse an offensive typing than Flying in every concievable way)

Alright you've made a pretty strong point. You're right Flying is better than Psychic. So that'd make Psychic the 13th best type in the game. But then again, Steel and Poison got buffed offensively this gen, and Grass has great coverage with Fire. So maybe Psychic is nearly as bad as Bug offensively. So one of the worst offensive types AND one of the worst defensive types. Damn Psychic IS worse than Ice.

 

[Slens]

As much as I agree that Psychic is a crap type, it's not Cresselia's main issue. Lugia has an even worse type but it's uber (even before it got Multiscale) because it's not a sitting duck like she is.
If she had something resembling actual offensive presence, she would probably be a mainstay in OU.

It is Cresselia's main issue. If she would've been given Fairy as a secondary-type she would be in OU. If Clefable could jump to OU this Gen just by getting changed to Fairy imagine what Cresselia could do.

Lugia doesn't have to worry about being U-Turned to death thanks to its Flying-Type. Even though Lugia has more weaknesses it also has the speed to abuse the secondary effect of Roost to take neutral damage from its Flying weaknesses. Multiscale also helped Lugia to keep up with the power creep these past two Gens.

Lugia doesn't exactly have offensive presence either and usually only carries Ice Beam as its only attack. While Cresselia's lack of offense does hurt her that hasn't stopped similar pokes like Blissey or Chansey from being OU.

 

[Albacore]

Alright you've made a pretty strong point. You're right Flying is better than Psychic. So that'd make Psychic the 13th best type in the game. But then again, Steel and Poison got buffed offensively this gen, and Grass has great coverage with Fire. So maybe Psychic is nearly as bad as Bug offensively. So one of the worst offensive types AND one of the worst defensive types. Damn Psychic IS worse than Ice.

Grass+Fire is walled by both Fire and Dragon. I wouldn't exactly call that "great coverage", but covering up 7 types is a lost cause anyway. At least it's not as bad as Bug, which resistances are so wide and varied I don't know where to even begin. Steel and Poison aren't great, but they both have good synergy with Ground, so they're not too bad.

What matters the most when talking about type coverage is not just how many types are resisted, but how well you can cover these resistances up. Overall, I'd say that Psychic is the 3rd worse offensively, behind Grass and Bug. It may have few resists, but these resists happen to have great synergy together and be really hard to cover up.

 

[WebBowser]

*looks Albacore in the eye

I can assure you that Reunclus would hate to be an ice or rock type, and here's why. While Reunclus' weaknesses are many, they tend to be relatively low BP. I cannot think of a common dark, ghost, or bug type move with more then 95 BP (megahorn is not common imo, feel free to debate that with me). Because of their low BP, he can often recover off an unstabbed super effective move and even some weaker SE STAB moves (for example, even strong pursuits like adamant mega ttar fail to 2hko him if he stays and he does not give one eff about foul play and weak knock offs from the likes of umbreon and mandibuzz). I have lost many games trying to "wear down" reunclus with u-turn, only to have him setup in my face instead. Overall, fighting, fire, and ground types hit much, much harder then the majority of dark types (yes I know crawdaunt exists), there is simply no way that reunclus could even think about staying in on a fighting type if it were ice or rock. Now it can easily take the unstabbed knock off and ohko back with psyshock, or just recover it off and watch your opponent realize that unboosted knock off fails to even 2hko reunclus in the majority of cases.

That being said, it's still a pretty bad typing when I'm using a fairly specific example to show that it's better then the two worst defensive typings in the game.

Btw, a lot of what I said above also applies to mew, who is just as, if not more bulky then reunclus on both sides and also has reliable recovery, and some patently insane movepool options. I do agree that it'd prefer most other typings, but I have a pretty decent mew-umbreon-vaporeon defensive core in UU (I realize that means little in OU, but hey, it's something)