Metagame PU Old Gens + Discussion (Gen5 Revamp)

Akir

A true villain!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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[21:25] %Akir: so good to drop stuff from lower B down into adv pu?
[21:25] +shiloh: if
[21:25] +shiloh: ur pu players agree
[21:25] +shiloh: go for it

GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME

ADV PU TIER SHIFT

Drops:
  • Ariados
  • Castform
  • Charmeleon
  • Furret
  • Grovyle
  • Lairon
  • Machoke
  • Noctowl
  • Poliwhirl
  • Seviper
  • Shedinja
  • Wartortle
  • Wigglytuff
Rises:
  • Volbeat
 
Gen 4 VR post about our lord and savior:


Swalot Unranked-> B- / B

Swalot @ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot
- Seed Bomb
- Thunder Punch

Apart from looking cool, swalot is actually a decent wallbreaker in the Gen 4 meta. Hits 209 speed with a neutral nature, outspeeding marowak, everything creeping it, and speed tie with neutral cacturne. Adamant with a Life Orb are used to maximize damage output, since Swalot kinda needs it, and using Choice Band is not the best option since you really appreciate being able to switch moves. Gunk shot is used for STAB, 2hkoing Lickilicky and Poliwrath and eating bellossom alive, Earthquake hits Metang and Muk, Seed Bomb hits Gastrodon and Rhydon, Thunder Punch hits both Golbat and Pelipper, making it a solid threat for most balance builds. Its bulk is also really great, its almost for sure that it will live a hit from offensive mons, and killing them back, so its not deadweight vs offense. This sets gives it a really usable and good niche over Muk. Wallbreakers are really appreciated in gen 4 PU, having a pokemon that can single handedly destroy the most used defensive cores is extremely valuable for a team, making swalot a decent choice for it.

Cool PUPL replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-769730823
 
So uh, Shedinja is really good in a meta where you can pass subs, aka adv, look at me slamming ransei with it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-794067141

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-794070488
here's the same jank bopping a guy who spent the entire game haxing me, though he did missplay pretty hard when it came into play

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-794075760
Same jank once again does work, end up losing this one tho bc agi pass is still broken

tl;dr please ban baton pass also shedinja for like b+ minimum
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Some people have been floating VR update ideas for Gen4 PU in my general direction, so I figured I'd make a post about all that I have heard.

First off,

Gen 4 VR post about our lord and savior:


Swalot Unranked-> B- / B

Swalot @ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot
- Seed Bomb
- Thunder Punch

Apart from looking cool, swalot is actually a decent wallbreaker in the Gen 4 meta. Hits 209 speed with a neutral nature, outspeeding marowak, everything creeping it, and speed tie with neutral cacturne. Adamant with a Life Orb are used to maximize damage output, since Swalot kinda needs it, and using Choice Band is not the best option since you really appreciate being able to switch moves. Gunk shot is used for STAB, 2hkoing Lickilicky and Poliwrath and eating bellossom alive, Earthquake hits Metang and Muk, Seed Bomb hits Gastrodon and Rhydon, Thunder Punch hits both Golbat and Pelipper, making it a solid threat for most balance builds. Its bulk is also really great, its almost for sure that it will live a hit from offensive mons, and killing them back, so its not deadweight vs offense. This sets gives it a really usable and good niche over Muk. Wallbreakers are really appreciated in gen 4 PU, having a pokemon that can single handedly destroy the most used defensive cores is extremely valuable for a team, making swalot a decent choice for it.

Cool PUPL replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-769730823
Agree 100%, B sounds more than fair.

electabuzz.png

Electabuzz A+ -> S, Disagree

This is a pretty interesting one for me, mainly because it means that the metagame has now come full circle and is now offensively-oriented. Electabuzz struggles in more defensive metas, but in offensive metas Electabuzz's ability to 2HKO close to everything in the meta with the correct attacks is more than enough to be a complete monster. Electabuzz even has its own archetype: Electabuzz Spikestack. The combination of hazard damage compliment's Electabuzz's ability to force switches really well, and Ebuzz is just a few Spike layers from making a lot of 2HKOs into OHKOs.

But on the other hand, a lot of Electabuzz's strength at the moment comes from meta trends. A lot of old checks like Muk, Bellossom, Marowak and Lickilicky are either not used as much or people run just 1 of them on a team. Electabuzz also sits on the 105 benchmark instead of breaking it. So I personally am perfectly fine with moving it up a bit further in A+, but to say that it's on par with Poliwrath (who goes on every team) or Victreebel (who can sweep every team) is still a bit of a stretch to me.

sneasel-f.png

Sneasel A -> B+, Agree

Currently according to the VR, Sneasel is slightly better than Metang. This is extremely laughable. Sneasel is a very good anti-offense mon, and with the metagame becoming more offensive I can only see Sneasel getting better. Even so, A is quite the stretch. Sneasel fits on to very few teams so it's not splashable, and is countered by a ton of extremely common mons like Poliwrath or Rapidash. B+ has mons like Dragonair and Probopass, who are both very good but have trouble making the cut on many teams, so I feel like this is closer to what Sneasel actually performs...either way, it is not on the same level as Metang. No way.

wartortle.png

Wartortle C -> Some better Akir what u doin, Disagree

I have been told by some that Wartortle is actually very good as a spinner and that C is way too low for something like this. The only problem is: I have yet to see it actually do anything?? Its most recent PUPL showing was it getting OHKO without doing anything, and I have yet to see a good battle where it pulls its weight. I am not opposed to bumping this up, especially since the tier does need more spinners, but I just haven't SEEN it do anything yet to make me think C is too low.

zangoose.png

Zangoose B+ -> A or A+, Unsure

This one is one worth debate. Zangoose almost won the playoffs of PUPL and had a fantastic showing in general. Scarf saw good usage, and so did Swords Dance. I do, however, think that A+ is out of the question. A+ is severely stacked at the moment, with a ton of titanic mons in there. Zangoose is good, but is it Misdeavus or Rhydon good...I'd say no. Even so, I think a bump is probably warranted to potentially A-. Zangoose has proven itself to be a force once again, but is still held back by the same things it always has (weird speed tier, having to choose between coverage or priority).

rapidash.png

Rapidash A- -> A, Agree

Another mon that had a great showing in PUPL. Articuno leaving did hurt the viability of Rapidash, who saw the spike in usage mainly cuz it countered Articuno pretty well, but the toolkit of this mons is still more than solid. Excellent Speed and the ability to heal is always appreciated, but the immunity to Fire (which in practice is just an immunity to Will-o-Wisp...which is still great) and access to its own fast Willo is what makes the thing crazy good. The old saying of "If Misdreavus is out, always go to Rapidash" is still plenty true, and with the metagame becoming more offensive the idea of a wallbreaker that can also work some utility options is particularly attractive. This also isn't mentioning that Rapidash can also use a good special set, and the new-ish SubToxic set also punishes the usual switchins and makes it so much harder to properly counter this thing. Fantastic mon that warrants A in my opinion.

lickilicky.png

Lickilicky A+ -> A, Disagree

Last one! Lickilicky has not been seen in quite some time. Licki is a standard on bulkier teams, but as the metagame shifts to offense Lickilicky is left in the dust in terms of usage. However, Lickilicky is still a monster. Choice Band Explosion can OHKO Rhydon, and has so much coverage that it is extremely difficult to actually switch in on it. Defensive sets are also so bulky that they work similar to recently-banned Articuno: if you can't kill it, you just lose. So I'm still on the fence about this one: The metagame doesn't favor Lickilicky at the moment, but maybe that is because people need to be reminded of how horrifying this thing can really be.

Ok done. Would love to hear more thoughts from people!
 
So I talked to akir briefly about my opinions on his post so he'll have to forgive me for repeating some of my points.

Response to Akir's Noms

Electabuzz A+ to S
I'm team Ebuzz to S for a variety of reasons. First reason being it only has one fairly passive check in the entire tier in Bellosom. Bell is super good and while it handles ebuzz nicely, the spdef set struggles to deal with ebuzz after a toxic/hazard damage/chip has been done by partner mons.

Outside of Bell, we don't have any reliable mons that aren't 2hko'd by ebuzz's coverage so that further leads to why it's so deserving of S. The mon has very few drawbacks to being put on a team and it has a good lead matchup vs everything but purugly, as lead metang often doesn't run eq because it needs priority Bullet punch for glalie. More importantly though, our lack of an electric immunity that isn't destroyed by coverage is really what puts Ebuzz a step above the rest of the mons in the tier. Usually the layout of a team employs a single grass type and if you're running victri/cacturne you take ~40+% from a tbolt and you die to coverage. The mon does so well vs every playstyle and I foresee it becoming the go to wallbreaker in the tier in the coming months.


Sneasel A to A-
I can agree to sneasel dropping. Poli is better than ever without Cuno in the tier and Sneasel suffers because of it. I think B+ is a little low as Sneasel is our premier pursuit trapper for missy and it has a great speed tier in a tier with a million base 105s. I think A- is fine for now until the tier settles a bit.

Wartortle C to C-
This mons a a completely momentum suck. I could see rest/talk sets being mildly viable for sub/tox rapidash and metang (which just took a hit with Articuno leaving) but outside of that it doesn't do anything vs our premier spike setters and rhydon. I think this should be a C- rank mon as it has a place but it's right next to beedrill and shedinja.

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wartortle: 150-177 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Zangoose B+ to A

The goose is in fact loose. Mon is good but it suffers from 4 move syndrome. AoA and SD 3atk lack wallbreaking power and priority/ghost coverage respectively. That being said it's definitely on the come up and I'd say the only thing holding it back right now is the lack of splashabilty. In time I could see it being A+ but right now the meta hasn't developed enough to justify this thing alongside rhydon/muk/cact/missy.




Rapidash A- to A

Sub toxic justifies this thing to move up all by itself. This set wears down all common checks in the tier besides rest/talk poli and it can timer walls like gastrodon for all other members later. Rapidash can still function how it always has except this tech really pushed it to another level.

Noms of My Own




Victreebel S to A+

The mons not S. We have so many natural checks to this thing and I've thought that it should drop for a while. Metang, Muk, Golbat all defensively handle one or a variety of Victribell sets. Offensively we have Sneasel, Purugly, Sub/Tox Rapidash, Monferno that revenge SD Sucker punch sets and a whole arsenal of mons that outspeed and ohko standard AoA sets. The mon just isn't as potent as it once was and we have a lot to handle it that naturally fit onto a variety of BO/Offense/Balance builds. Additionally, the argument can be made that Victribell isn't on the level of influence that Poliwrath is. Offensively victribell does not provide S rank breaking power in the same way poli defensively provides S rank glue and the ability to check a huge portion of the tier in purugly/sneasel/rhydon/cacturne/rapidash



Mr. Mime A- to B+

Mime sits at a speed tier that doesn't make it nearly as effective as xatu which can break metang with LO sets and run uturn on scarf sets to preserve momentum. For these reasons alone I think Mime should drop but we can also see Kadabra in A which effectively invalids using mime even more. NP is the only set that I could justify keeping it in A- but that's not even getting more than 1 kill without being revenge whereas Sub LO kadabra has potential to 6-0 on one misprediction.


Raichu B+ to B

Raichu has a really unfortunate speed tier at base 100 this gen. So many 105s revenge and ebuzz is better than ever so there's very little reason to want to run a sweeper set that doesn't sweep due to speed when we have a mon that sweeps without setup in ebuzz.


Sableye A- to B+

Sableye doesn't have the bulk to be a reliable wall right now. It's too passive and Rapidash/Cacturne can immediately gain momentum back from a sableye switch in. I just don't see it on par with the rest of A- as those mons all have important staples in the metagame right now.
 
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I don't think I've ever done a VR post for DPP PU but, I just felt like adding on to the initial Ebuzz nomination.

Electabuzz A+ to S

With cuno gone, I expected the meta to slow down. Teams were forced to offensively check it because it could just PP stall almost every defensive mon in the tier. But offense is still running wild, and Ebuzz loves this. Very few things in the tier can take on its Stab + coverage options (Tbolt, Psychic, Focus Blast, Hp grass, ect.) And everything that does take those moves well (Bello, Ampharos, Muk, ect.) absolutely hate taking hits from Ebuzz after Rocks, Spikes, or the combination of both. It can also easily forgo a coverage move for toxic, to wear down most of its checks. Which helps in the long run if they ever need to switch in again.

This thing is honestly a meta defining mon. Like GA said, theres almost no reason not to throw it on a team. It destroys the common team styles like Poliwrath, Victreebel, Missy, Golbat, ect. I dont have much else to say bcuz GA's post is great & I dont wanna repeat him too much.


Sneasel A to A- Agree

This is a tough one, on one hand the speed tier it has is amazing right now, outpacing the likes of Rapidash, Electabuzz, Purugly, Xatu, ect. The main problem I've always had with it is how frail it is, letting anything that can take a hit (which is a lot in the meta right now) tank a hit and straight KO it back. I've found that the meta has a slight power creep that Sneasel sadly just can't keep up with. SD is still a scary set, but it struggles to set it up. I'm sure we will see a meta where this thing shines, but for the time being I dont see it being A materiel.


Wartortle C to C- 100% Agree

I would argue that because of us not seeing it at all in high level play, & when we do it does nothing is a great indication of it needing to be a bit lower on the VR. Momentum is huge at the moment and your hazard remover needs to has some type of offensive pressure, Wartortle just doesnt have that. Any set other than rest talk is complete Poliwrath bait, a long with Victreebel just coming in for free on it (unless they carry ice beam but we wouldn't know bcuz its never seen.) Idk, i would love to be proven wrong. I'd love for more discussion on this because maybe I'm not seeing what others are.

Zangoose B+ to A-

I wouldn't say its A materiel yet but, I can't deny that this thing has been on a tear and pretty much dumps on any type of Balance or Bulky offense with the right set. It's splashable enough to be A- imo, but not A.


Rapidash A- to A Agree

I personally have yet to use the cool new sub toxic set, but man is it a bitch to play around. Stalling out common switch ins like Poliwrath, Rhydon, Gastrodon, ect. Rapidash is also very splashable atm, fitting great on offense and even some balances. Overall Rapidash's diversity and presence in the meta for sure makes it an A rank mon.


Victreebel S to A+ I have no idea

Vic is in a really weird spot. On one hand, the SD set makes it undoubtedly one of the best wallbreakers in the whole tier. On the other hand, it just doesn't feel like it does the job as well anymore. The meta has somewhat adapted to it, with offense doing a great job just straight up not giving it the chance to set up. I'm really not sure where I stand on this nom, my opinion has changed back and forth over the past couple days. I would love if more discussion were to be had about it! Since it would be a huge change to the VR.


Mr. Mime A- to B+ Agree

Not much to say really, Xatu does its job better in almost every way (Xatu is rlly underrated pls use it ppl.) Healing wish is a really cool tech Mime has, but unless you're running the scarf set which is really weak, Mime can struggle at times to even do that. I also agree that Kadabra is much better than Mime atm, with its great speed tier. The nasty plot set doesnt really justify keeping it at A- either.


Raichu B+ to B Agree

I really haven't seen Raichu at all outside of me testing it out a bit in friendly's, where the nasty plot set struggled to keep up against faster stronger teams. Electabuzz does a much much better job in almost every aspect. I would like to see it more, since the first time i had seen it in maybe a month was me using it, and my opponent was shocked that somebody was bringing it lol.


Sableye A- to B+ Agree

I don't have much to say on it since I haven't faced it in about 2 months, but like GA said it doesn't have the bulk to reliably wall things & just drains any teams momentum. B+ would be a fine place to keep it, since I think it has at least some potential in the meta, but A- really isn't the place for it anymore.

Anyways thanks for anyone reading, Post-Cuno meta has been a ton of fun and has made me enjoy the tier a lot more.
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
So I am updating the Gen4 VR soon, I just wanted a few more ebuzz opinions and i needed to get the format right so uberskitty would stop bullying me. But I wanted to push this out:

Gen5 Revamp, Phase 1 Proposal
So the main problem facing Gen5 PU at the moment is accessibility and having an incredibly high skill floor requirement. I will go into more detail in a hide here if you are curious:

So if anything was a clue to the idea that "we are coming to this tier with the wrong idea" it's the fact that Omfuga went 14-1 in PUPL in that tier, with the one loss being due to heavy hax. He went undefeated during the year that we revived Gen5 too, and had genuine interest and innovation in the tier. Omfuga is good sure, but to go undefeated for so long? After a bit of work I came to the conclusion that Omfuga came at the tier in a completely different way, and his way was a lot closer to "the right way" than what we established.

Basically, after a lot of tinkering, I came to the conclusion that momentum is actually the lifeblood of the tier in totality. Obviously momentum is always important, but this tier has an incredibly intense focus on it. Take the first team in this post for example, where the wincon is just "have more hazards and momentum than your opponent" and I would consider it one of the best teams the tier has...and no, not just because I made it. It is, at the very least, closer to the ideal than a lot of other teams.

This focus on momentum comes from the tier's large inability to actually slow momentum: if you can create and hold momentum, you can dance on your opponent all day and there is little they can do if anything. This is because the tier has a ton more wallbreakers than walls. The tier just cannot keep all of these theats checked, so it is easier to simply create your own momentum and steamroll your opponent than try to stop their momentum. People flock to Bronzor because it promises to wall so much, even though the mon is a pretty massively exploitable momentum drain. Even worse are threats like Rotom-Frost, which have so few reliable checks that a good number of teams have to rely on things like Chinchou, who would be a miserable choice otherwise.

So ok, here's the answer to the "so what" question: If the tier has such a focus on momentum, it means that the tier is significantly harder to get into that other tiers. Since this tier has very little play out of PUPL, very few have given the tier enough focus to actually achieve an understanding. Most just get frustrated.

So the takeaway is this: the tier has so many strong threats that the tier cannot hope to check it all. As a result, people have to rely on momentum-heavy offense in order to win. These kind of teams are harder to build and play, so the cycle of people not learning the tier properly and quitting before they can continues.

As for the string of people using illegal mons: yeah the resources need a revamp but largely you guys just suck. Also I do like how offensive the tier is personally, but the skill floor needs to be lowered pretty badly imo



Originally this was much longer, but I decided to cut out a lot of the fat as it made this part a chore to read if you didn't care as much about metagame theory as I do. A bit self-indulgent after a while lol


The short version is this: Gen5 at the moment has too many breakers for most playstyles to actually achieve any level of healthy viability. So, I propose 2 ways we can mitigate this:

  1. Accept that the tier is in need of revamps and start banning what is needed by a slow process of elimination, starting with a ban on Rotom-Frost and Combusken. They are the outliers that have the most singular impact on the tier due to huge potential and few niche counters, so these 2 alone will improve the tier a lot.
  2. Instead, accept the tier as it is and focus on making the tier more approachable with better resources, more tournaments, and potentially even tutoring.
The best solution will more than likely be a combination, but the real focus is more on whether or not people would prefer to keep this old tier as it is or not. I know there are some that are opposed to moving a tier around after the gen is over.

I would love to hear more thoughts on this. Personally, I feel like banning Combusken and Frost will be a solid step in the right direction.
 
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Many

Impetuous and silly
is a Tiering Contributor
So I am updating the Gen4 VR soon, I just wanted a few more ebuzz opinions and i needed to get the format right so uberskitty would stop bullying me. But I wanted to push this out:

Gen5 Revamp, Phase 1 Proposal
So the main problem facing Gen5 PU at the moment is accessibility and having an incredibly high skill floor requirement. I will go into more detail in a hide here if you are curious:

So if anything was a clue to the idea that "we are coming to this tier with the wrong idea" it's the fact that Omfuga went 14-1 in PUPL in that tier, with the one loss being due to heavy hax. He went undefeated during the year that we revived Gen5 too, and had genuine interest and innovation in the tier. Omfuga is good sure, but to go undefeated for so long? After a bit of work I came to the conclusion that Omfuga came at the tier in a completely different way, and his way was a lot closer to "the right way" than what we established.

Basically, after a lot of tinkering, I came to the conclusion that momentum is actually the lifeblood of the tier in totality. Obviously momentum is always important, but this tier has an incredibly intense focus on it. Take the first team in this post for example, where the wincon is just "have more hazards and momentum than your opponent" and I would consider it one of the best teams the tier has...and no, not just because I made it. It is, at the very least, closer to the ideal than a lot of other teams.

This focus on momentum comes from the tier's large inability to actually slow momentum: if you can create and hold momentum, you can dance on your opponent all day and there is little they can do if anything. This is because the tier has a ton more wallbreakers than walls. The tier just cannot keep all of these theats checked, so it is easier to simply create your own momentum and steamroll your opponent than try to stop their momentum. People flock to Bronzor because it promises to wall so much, even though the mon is a pretty massively exploitable momentum drain. Even worse are threats like Rotom-Frost, which have so few reliable checks that a good number of teams have to rely on things like Chinchou, who would be a miserable choice otherwise.

So ok, here's the answer to the "so what" question: If the tier has such a focus on momentum, it means that the tier is significantly harder to get into that other tiers. Since this tier has very little play out of PUPL, very few have given the tier enough focus to actually achieve an understanding. Most just get frustrated.

So the takeaway is this: the tier has so many strong threats that the tier cannot hope to check it all. As a result, people have to rely on momentum-heavy offense in order to win. These kind of teams are harder to build and play, so the cycle of people not learning the tier properly and quitting before they can continues.

As for the string of people using illegal mons: yeah the resources need a revamp but largely you guys just suck. Also I do like how offensive the tier is personally, but the skill floor needs to be lowered pretty badly imo



Originally this was much longer, but I decided to cut out a lot of the fat as it made this part a chore to read if you didn't care as much about metagame theory as I do. A bit self-indulgent after a while lol


The short version is this: Gen5 at the moment has too many breakers for most playstyles to actually achieve any level of healthy viability. So, I propose 2 ways we can mitigate this:

  1. Accept that the tier is in need of revamps and start banning what is needed by a slow process of elimination, starting with a ban on Rotom-Frost and Combusken. They are the outliers that have the most singular impact on the tier due to huge potential and few niche counters, so these 2 alone will improve the tier a lot.
  2. Instead, accept the tier as it is and focus on making the tier more approachable with better resources, more tournaments, and potentially even tutoring.
The best solution will more than likely be a combination, but the real focus is more on whether or not people would prefer to keep this old tier as it is or not. I know there are some that are opposed to moving a tier around after the gen is over.

I would love to hear more thoughts on this. Personally, I feel like banning Combusken and Frost will be a solid step in the right direction.
Hi Akir

I already spoke a little about this in Discord but I wanted to get my thoughts here. First, I disagree with the overall premise that BW PU is an inaccessible or overly difficult metagame. It's just a very offensive meta, like most of the BW tiers, based around stacking hazards and sweeping. Basically anyone can get into it if they know how to play offense at a basic level. Overanalyzing Omfuga's win rate is a bit silly because in a lot of those games he just outplayed his opponents or they just had poor teams. There really isn't any special factor to it, and momentum has always been a huge factor in offensive metas so I don't think there's really anything new there either.

We're never going to change the fundamental nature of the tier from being heavy offense and there's no point in trying. That's just the way this tier (and most BW metas) are- based around hazard stacking and overwhelming the opposition. It's true, defensive playstyles are less viable but that doesn't necessarily make this a poor metagame.

But yes, I do agree that this tier needs a bit of a revamp. Combusken and Rotom-Frost exert a lot of pressure both on teambuilding and on the battlefield. They are kind of similar to the Pyroar + Kingler threat because it's pretty hard to build a team that can keep up against both of them and their amazing dual STAB combination, and they do threaten each others' checks quite a bit if used on the same team (Grumpig for example).

I think Combusken is the more pressing of the two issues because it is more flat-out broken once on the field. Combusken doesn't possess that much immediate power, but because of Speed Boost, it becomes an insane threat in the late-game. Because of the easy nature of hazard stacking in BW, it is very easy to chip defensive pokemon down into the range where Combusken can click Protect and just clean up a broken team. It doesn't help either that Combusken has multiple viable sets that share different checks; SD Eviolite for example, can nearly always find at least one opportunity for setup and pokemon like Chinchou or SpD Beheeyem are no longer solid checks. A Combusken suspect vote would be a fantastic place to start.

Rotom-Frost is obviously also a terrifying pokemon due to the sheer lack of switch-ins to its coverage and its combination of speed and power. One thing to note, though, is that Stealth Rocks should be considered almost omnipresent in BW due to the non-existent removal, and this certainly doesn't help Rotom-F if it wants to clean entire teams switching in and out (although yes, its immunity to Toxic Spikes is something to be noted). Being locked into one move if Choice Scarf doesn't help either, and non-choiced sets have a manageable amount of revenge-killers. Even with all that, it is still easily one of the most offensively powerful pokemon in battle and exerts an enormous amount of pressure on building teams (similar to ORAS in that sense). But I think that its possible if the more clearly broken Combusken is removed first, the amount of pressure Rotom-F exerts on teambuilding might be made manageable, as well as for other pokemon such as Vigoroth. I would caution on putting both on the chopping block at the same time; things aren't nearly that drastic.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
hi!

I already spoke a little about this in Discord but I wanted to get my thoughts here. First, I disagree with the overall premise that BW PU is an inaccessible or overly difficult metagame. It's just a very offensive meta, like most of the BW tiers, based around stacking hazards and sweeping. Basically anyone can get into it if they know how to play offense at a basic level. Overanalyzing Omfuga's win rate is a bit silly because in a lot of those games he just outplayed his opponents or they just had poor teams. There really isn't any special factor to it, and momentum has always been a huge factor in offensive metas so I don't think there's really anything new there either.
Well, i never said overly-difficult. It is the most difficult PU gen to get into though, thats for sure. and the whole Omfuga thing was less of "omg omfuga, THE GOD, does it this way so we all should!" and more of "this guy with very different ideas and very different teams is overwhelmingly successful, maybe he is on to something..."

As I said in the post, of course momentum is important. It is just that in this tier, it's almost the singular deciding factor in winning games. You get rewarded more for it than in other PU gens, thats it.

We're never going to change the fundamental nature of the tier from being heavy offense and there's no point in trying. That's just the way this tier (and most BW metas) are- based around hazard stacking and overwhelming the opposition. It's true, defensive playstyles are less viable but that doesn't necessarily make this a poor metagame.
This is the main reason I'm actually responding to this post because I must have said something wrong because i have no idea where you got this. I have no interest in changing the entire structure of the metagame, only to cut off the really heavy outliers so there's less teambuilding stress so building something other than momentum-heavy offense is viable. Torterra is cool and all but you need more than that to keep balance teams around. Honestly maybe I should have kept my full essay if people seriously got this vibe from me.

But yes, I do agree that this tier needs a bit of a revamp. Combusken and Rotom-Frost exert a lot of pressure both on teambuilding and on the battlefield. They are kind of similar to the Pyroar + Kingler threat because it's pretty hard to build a team that can keep up against both of them and their amazing dual STAB combination, and they do threaten each others' checks quite a bit if used on the same team (Grumpig for example).
Sounds like we agree! Cool!

The main reason I want to do both though is because there is a notably lack of a consensus on what to cut out first. Both are outliers that have a ton of potential to completely decimate teams if you don't have very specific counters to them, and both sides have perfectly reasonable arguments for getting rid of both. So, I would rather get rid of both of the primary outliers and see where the tier goes and work from there.
 
So I am updating the Gen4 VR soon, I just wanted a few more ebuzz opinions and i needed to get the format right so uberskitty would stop bullying me. But I wanted to push this out:

Gen5 Revamp, Phase 1 Proposal
So the main problem facing Gen5 PU at the moment is accessibility and having an incredibly high skill floor requirement. I will go into more detail in a hide here if you are curious:

So if anything was a clue to the idea that "we are coming to this tier with the wrong idea" it's the fact that Omfuga went 14-1 in PUPL in that tier, with the one loss being due to heavy hax. He went undefeated during the year that we revived Gen5 too, and had genuine interest and innovation in the tier. Omfuga is good sure, but to go undefeated for so long? After a bit of work I came to the conclusion that Omfuga came at the tier in a completely different way, and his way was a lot closer to "the right way" than what we established.

Basically, after a lot of tinkering, I came to the conclusion that momentum is actually the lifeblood of the tier in totality. Obviously momentum is always important, but this tier has an incredibly intense focus on it. Take the first team in this post for example, where the wincon is just "have more hazards and momentum than your opponent" and I would consider it one of the best teams the tier has...and no, not just because I made it. It is, at the very least, closer to the ideal than a lot of other teams.

This focus on momentum comes from the tier's large inability to actually slow momentum: if you can create and hold momentum, you can dance on your opponent all day and there is little they can do if anything. This is because the tier has a ton more wallbreakers than walls. The tier just cannot keep all of these theats checked, so it is easier to simply create your own momentum and steamroll your opponent than try to stop their momentum. People flock to Bronzor because it promises to wall so much, even though the mon is a pretty massively exploitable momentum drain. Even worse are threats like Rotom-Frost, which have so few reliable checks that a good number of teams have to rely on things like Chinchou, who would be a miserable choice otherwise.

So ok, here's the answer to the "so what" question: If the tier has such a focus on momentum, it means that the tier is significantly harder to get into that other tiers. Since this tier has very little play out of PUPL, very few have given the tier enough focus to actually achieve an understanding. Most just get frustrated.

So the takeaway is this: the tier has so many strong threats that the tier cannot hope to check it all. As a result, people have to rely on momentum-heavy offense in order to win. These kind of teams are harder to build and play, so the cycle of people not learning the tier properly and quitting before they can continues.

As for the string of people using illegal mons: yeah the resources need a revamp but largely you guys just suck. Also I do like how offensive the tier is personally, but the skill floor needs to be lowered pretty badly imo



Originally this was much longer, but I decided to cut out a lot of the fat as it made this part a chore to read if you didn't care as much about metagame theory as I do. A bit self-indulgent after a while lol


The short version is this: Gen5 at the moment has too many breakers for most playstyles to actually achieve any level of healthy viability. So, I propose 2 ways we can mitigate this:

  1. Accept that the tier is in need of revamps and start banning what is needed by a slow process of elimination, starting with a ban on Rotom-Frost and Combusken. They are the outliers that have the most singular impact on the tier due to huge potential and few niche counters, so these 2 alone will improve the tier a lot.
  2. Instead, accept the tier as it is and focus on making the tier more approachable with better resources, more tournaments, and potentially even tutoring.
The best solution will more than likely be a combination, but the real focus is more on whether or not people would prefer to keep this old tier as it is or not. I know there are some that are opposed to moving a tier around after the gen is over.

I would love to hear more thoughts on this. Personally, I feel like banning Combusken and Frost will be a solid step in the right direction.
In gen 5 I think the biggest problem is combusken (not the skill gap, maybe the accessibility to the tier cause not many people know about our old gens). As someone who played gen 5 quite a bit outside of PUPL, combusken is by far the most difficult thing to consider when teambuilding. Speed boost makes it such a huge threat because even if your opp switches on a failed protect, you get another one for free and now you're the fastest thing in the tier while your opponent still doesn't even know your set. SD/LO Special decimate teams if you run electric coverage cause we essentially have nothing that can switch into it except Lampent (which isn't a good mon anyway).

Onto the other mon at hand, Rotom-Frost is great in the tier. It's a good mon but I don't see a reason for it to be banned right now. We have chinchou, monferno, muk, throh, and grumpig just to name a few very relevant mons that keep it in check. I'd suggest that we ban combusken and feel the tier out similar to how we did with Kingler/Pyroar. I don't feel as though this is a Kingler/Pyroar situation though. Combusken is a much scarier threat than Rotom-F and I think there are very few people who'd argue that it's healthy for the tier whereas Rotom-F offers a good offensive presence/speed tier to remain a top threat but not one that is overly centralizing to the metagame or one without checks.

Ban Combusken/Keep Rotom-Frost, feel out the tier after

Just a replay from PUPL this year. Essentially I have spdef muk/def throh for both combusken sets and even then I end up not being able to beat it due to losing momentum every time I switch muk in.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5nu-781655017
 
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DPP
This post mainly has to deal with metagame trends as well as VR nominations I'd like to propose. Post Articuno meta is as healthy and as fresh as ever.

Trends
Offensive pressure is at an all time high right now. Mons such as Sub Tox Rapidash and AoA/3atk Tox Electabuzz are ruling the meta due to their speed tier, wallbreaking abilities, and sufficient bulk to take a hit, something that has become a standard in DPP.

1538622770995.png

Poliwrath is no longer restricted into running encore for Articuno and therefore can afford to run really spicy tech like Hp Electric for Peli or semi-standard toxic for Bell/Gastro. Due to a large cacturne rise to prominence, I think Poliwrath can warrant running 216 or more speed to outspeed + speed nature cacturne. Spikes and momentum swings are too dangerous to risk right now and slow poliwrath can't reliably beat both timid cacturne and spdef sets.
1538622791207.png

Band Sneasel has been something I've been using quite a lot and it's really good at pursuiting misdreavus for Purugly, Poli, and Muk without the need for 50/50s. The mon definitely prefers band to LO because of its longevity and due to switching out anyway after it comes in to revenge something anyway. Band does 58.6 - 69% with punishment to rapidash over 50.9 - 60.1% with LO so you gain 8-9% to boot.
1538622881358.png

After much consideration, I firmly believe that Metang is better used with berries than with leftovers on many teams. Purugly is easy enough to check with poli/misdreavus on most teams so leftovers aren't a huge deal for recovery and metang gains so much from being able to sponge a super effective hit. Because of this, Shuca and specifically Occa Metang are quite good techs that can single-handedly swing a game in your favor. Most opps will send in a rapidash without thinking to remove metang and being able to stay in and earthquake confidently to remove it takes away a good bit of speed control all in one turn. Berry Metang is definitely something that will become meta at a certain point. It's just a matter of spreading the word.
1538623003357.png

Sets like Spdef cacturne and + speed nature cacturne are all the fad right now and with good reason. Spikes are a huge part of the metagame and speed creep to remove cacturne has pushed it into running more bulk to more speed to get them up. Both of these sets should be expected at this point and prepped for with Rapidash, fast Poli, Murkrow, or Victribell.

VR Nominations

1538623021518.png
Lickilicky A+ to A

I've given this thing a lot of chances and it just isn't a staple to the meta in the same ways that other mons in A+ are. Band is good but it's slow and heavily reliant on predictions. Our metagame is only getting faster and I'd much rather use Zangoose or Purugly as my offensive normal. Wish Licki is very playstyle restricted. You're only seeing this on semi-stall/stall and those playstyles are near non-existent in DPP right now. With how dominant Ebuzz and spikes are, I can't find a reason to justify keeping it A+ as a wish setter either.

1538623039869.png
Relicanth B+ to B

Poliwrath is better than it has ever been in DPP. It's by far the best mon in this metagame and its win rate in PUPL supports that. This means that relicanth is rarely ever sweeping and often times it requires more support than what it can give. Right now, Rhydon and Metang are much better rockers because they can actually take chunks out of Poliwrath, without being dead weight. Relicanth just can't keep up and if we add the recent Ebuzz/Cacturne rise to the list we see trends in an unfavorable direction for this mon.

1538623054668.png
Murkrow B+ to A-

I've tested this mon on and off and recently it's been so on. As a mixed wallbreaker, murkrow can break every relevant thing in our metagame outside of probopass. Cacturne's usage rise and our generalized lack of reliable flying resists allows this mon to take a life every time its in. I've always felt like this mon was slept on and I think not having to run a guaranteed steel of some sort on every team (as in Art meta) has done it a world of good.
 
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Akir

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Gen5 Revamp Phase 1 Decision
So after seeing all of the debate that happened both here and on discord, I have decided to move forward with banning both. Rotom-Frost and Combusken are banned from Gen5 PU.

Why both? The community is split in a pretty even 50/50 over which one deserves to be banned more. Both sides provide plenty of good arguments for both, such as Rotom-Frost having no real bad matchups and Combusken sweeping cleanly in every game against offense. Conversely, the arguments to keep the mons were notably weaker. Because of the heavy community split with both mons arguably having strong reason to be banned, I see no reason not to simply ban both and then retest them one at a time at a later date.

Hopefully this is a strong step in the right direction for getting the generation back into shape!
 

Akir

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Gen4 PU VR Update

Electabuzz A+ to S
Victreebel S to A+
Lickilicky A+ to A
Rapidash A- to A
Zangoose B+ to A-
Murkrow B+ to A-
Sneasel A to A-
Gabite A- to B+
Ampharos C+ to B
Relicanth B+ to B

Wow finally. Still a bit small but that's ok.

  • Electabuzz 2HKOs the metagame, basically. Now that the tier is leaning more offensive, this fact is a lot harder to counter. Because of the fact that Electabuzz is never deadweight and can very easily throw its weight around even in "bad" matchups, it is now S.
  • Victreebel is still extremely strong as a threat, but ironically the Cuno meta popularized a lot of checks to Victreebel and now they are everywhere. Sun is still good btw!
  • Lickilicky is an absolute staple on really bulky teams, but those are falling out of favor and so is Lickilicky. Choice Band is still good, but the fact that the #1 special attacker at the moment is Ebuzz (who 2HKOs) is a pretty big blow to viability. Still a solid mon but just not too suited for the current meta.
  • Rapidash is such a consistently good mon in Gen4 PU in both metagames. The innovation of SubToxic makes it even better, so now there is basically no free switchin for Rapidash ever. Good speed and self-healing are still a plus, and the fact that both sides of the attacking spectrum means that Rapidash is just very difficult to stop while being very consistent.
  • Zangoose is proving to be a strong threat in the tier, but is still held back by a lot of its old trappings, like awkward speed and 4mss. A- feels solid.
  • Honestly I should have bumped Murkrow up to A- last metagame, but to see if just get better with time is pretty surprising. Still dies way too fast to get any higher in the VR though.
  • I compromised on Sneasel. I still think it is B+ material but I'm apparently outgunned. No way it is anything more than A- though.
  • Gabite proved 2 things in PUPL. 1: It has no real switchins. 2: Even so, Gabite still struggles to do much. Iffy bulk and a bad speed for an offensive metagame is holding it back.
  • Ampharos became pretty good in Cuno meta and has since retained its stature of being a good mon. Solid B mon, as it does not belong on most teams, but with the popularization of Ebuzz it can find itself on more and more balance teams.
  • Relicanth is basically a discount Poliwrath as a defensive mon. Offensively, it is a discount Rhydon. It falls somewhere in the middle, but the physical STAB choice leaves a lot to be desired. The only Water Type Poliwrath actually reliably checks, go figure.
Very brief, but all of these changes have been mulled over plenty.
 

Akir

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After some play leading up to the Mini-Classic week for Gen3, Machoke and Seviper both have been deemed initially too powerful for the tier and have been quickbanned.

With a Guts boost, Machoke has the ability to 2HKO just about every single wall in the tier with a Choice Band. Bulk up is also a great alternative, but the threat of a Guts boost makes dealing with Machoke particularly difficult. Normally threats like this would be burned or simply revenge killed in the tier, but Machoke loves to be burned with Guts and has plenty of bulk to take several hits and hit much harder back. The closest things to counters that the tier has are Duskull and Shuckle, who can lose depending on what set Machoke is running. Overall, Machoke is the best wallbreaker in the tier by a wide margin with no true counters.

Seviper has seen considerable use on Speedpass teams thanks to Seviper's excellent mixed offensive stats and even better movepool. Seviper's near-perfect coverage makes Seviper a menace to deal with in the mid- and lategame. Seviper's only true flaw is the lackluster Speed, but its coverage and power makes it an excellent candidate for passing Speed boosts to. There has been a lot of discussion over what part of Speedpass is or could be broken, and ultimately the decision was made that Seviper's incredible fit into the archetype was the breaking point.
 
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