Metagame PU Old Gens + Discussion

Akir

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Gen4 PU VR Update!

Now that the Classic is done, I am doing what I promised and updating the Gen4 VR to better reflect the current metagame. Here are the changes:

Victreebel A+ to S
Rhydon S to A+
Electabuzz A to A+
Misdreavus A to A+
Golduck from A+ to A
Kadabra from A+ to A
Pelipper from B+ to A
Metang A- to A
Glalie A to A-
Rapidash A to A-
Articuno B to A-
Mr. Mime B+ to A-
Sableye A to A-
Xatu B to A-
Bellossom A to A-
Relicanth A- to B+
Dragonair B to B+
Marowak from B to B+
Murkrow from B- to B
Tangela from B- to B
Lopunny B+ to B
Quagsire from B+ to B
Politoed C+ to B-
Voltorb added to C+
Furret added to C

"Boy Akir that sure is a lot!" It sure is! That is why this time I'm putting the reasoning down in hides.

  • Victreebel is in an incredibly good spot at the moment. The Swords Dance set is the best wallbreaker in the tier, and the Chlorophyll set is one of the best sweepers in the tier. Mixed is also surprisingly potent, and Choice Scarf is a good surprise set for some decent KOs. The main things going for Victreebel at the moment are its versatility and its splashability. Victreebel is one of the best sweepers and the best wallbreaker at the same time, and it's nearly impossible to tell which set it is until Victreebel reveals what it is...usually by setting up the set, which means you have to immediately react to it. Also considering the fact that both of the sets have completely different sets of checks/counters, that means that the best way to deal with Victreebel is to take a gamble as to what it is and pray that you guessed correctly. Combine all of that with the fact that Victreebel can be casually thrown on to a wide variety of teams and still produce results and you have a mon that is the most threatening thing in the tier. Deserving of S imo.
  • Usually in Gen4 PU, attackers are expected to either set up or have some form of utility in order to be popular. Electabuzz has neither, and it doesn't need to because of how difficult it is to deal with. There are very few mons that can reliably switch in on Electabuzz, and with good speed and good coverage Electabuzz is arguably the best AoA mon in the tier...only really rivaled by Purugly, who is also A+.
  • Misdreavus has a Nasty Plot set that is the best special wallbreaker in the tier, and a Scarf set that is both effective while still providing a ton of utility to a team. Nasty Plot has extremely few walls that can beat it, and I feel like that is enough to warrant it. The Choice Scarf set also has grown in popularity due to the sheer amount of utility it provides while still being a good revenge killer. Trick, Memento, a fast Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond...the list goes on. There is also the fact that Misdreavus is immune to Ground, which is a blessing in a tier where Rhydon and Spikes are particularly potent.
  • I waited for people to adjust to Pelipper, and some people did, but none of it was really effective enough to dissuade Pelipper from rising. A Water mon that also checks Waters with good coverage, recovery, and a fairly slow U-Turn makes Pelipper a great gluemon for a lot of teams.
  • Metang is one of the more reliable tanks at the moment, being able to set Stealth Rocks and have ok bulk to take a few hits while doing it. Metang also has good power and coverage to remain an offensive threat at the same time. What really sells Metang, however, is the Steel typing. With this, Metang has a huge amount of resistances such as Normal, Psychic, an immunity to Poison, and so on that lets it checks huge threats like Muk, Mr. Mime, and Purugly. All of these things means that Metang is an easy mon to throw on a team. Provides Stealth Rocks while also being bulky enough to be reliable and having enough offensive prowess to pull its weight.
  • Articuno is a very potent mon at the present stage of the metagame. Articuno is absurdly bulky with offensive stats to match. In fact, Articuno's stats are so solid that the Subroost set is a good wincon just because it is so difficult to dislodge at times. I did consider putting Articuno in A, however its splashability was what ultimately stopped me. In order to get the most out of Articuno, you basically have to base your team around it. Of course the weakness to Stealth Rocks is also a huge factor. Doesn't matter how bulky you are if you lose 50% of your health every time you come in.
  • Mr. Mime is a Psychic mon, and Psychic is an incredibly good offensive type in the metagame. Lack of Dark and Steel mons means that Psychic is an easy attack to lock into for the Choice Scarf set, and Mime also has Focus Blast to deal with coverage. Mime also gets Healing Wish to heal back up a lot of the bulky threats in the tier for your team and Trick to cripple opposing walls, so there is plenty of utility options too. Nasty Plot and AoA are also very good sets.
  • Xatu is in a similar boat to Mime: Psychic is good, and Xatu is Psychic. Xatu does have several assets that seperate it from Mime though, most notably Heat Wave and U-Turn. Xatu can therefore run a good Choice Scarf set, but with Roost Xatu can also run a good CM set as well. A versatile mon that is effective in what it does.
  • Dragonair is extremely scary once it is set up. Realistically the only reliable switchin is Metang, but at +2 even Metang can be iffy. With 1 Dragon Dance, Dragonair hits like a truck with Outrage, which is nearly unresisted in the tier, and has Aqua Tail to hit some of the more physically bulky mons like Rhydon and Metang. Combine that with Extremespeed to bop Scarf mons, and you have a solid wincon. The only downside to Dragonair is that ideally you need 2 Dragon Dances in order to win, and that can be a lot to ask. In fact, 1 Dragon Dance can be difficult to get. Dragonair is not bulky, and without any dances it is also weak.
  • Politoed is a reliable Water check. It has Encore and Perish Song too, so it has decent utility while still being decently powerful. Decent mon.


  • Way to go Rhydon, you finally did it. The metagame is based heavily around beating Rhydon at the moment. If you can creep Rhydon, you do. If you can lure Rhydon, you do. Every team has a switchin specifically for Rhydon. There are a lot of arguments to be made that the fact that Rhydon has this much of an impact means that it is S, but that would assume that Rhydon is still effective. Rhydon is just not as effective as it once was, and a lot of people are moving on to other Stealth Rocks mons. Definitely still prepare for Rhydon though, as we prepare so much for a reason.
  • It says a lot that Golduck is one of the best counters to Sun, to the point where I push it constantly, and a strong scarf mon AND a good wallbreaker with SubCM and it is still rarely used. The reason? It's actually pretty hard to put on a team. Golduck is not very splashable and doesn't provide much utility beyond what it uses itself. Because of this, most people prefer other scarfers or other wallbreakers. Still a great mon, but not quite as good as the new A+.
  • Kadabra still hits like a truck, but its bulk is just too much of a burden to overcome. Kadabra is also a special wallbreaker that fails to break many special walls, like Lickilicky. It can push through with Encore, but then you don't have Substitute to help with the offense matchup. If Kadabra had 5 moveslots it would be better, but for now it just is not as effective as the other A+ mons.
  • People prefer using Cacturne over Glalie. Because of the meta favoring the Cactus a lot at the moment, people would rather go with that over Glalie. More cactus = less reason to have a dedicated lead to Spikes. Outclassed as a Spikes setter, but still a great lead.
  • Fire is just not that great of a type in Gen4 PU, so the fact that Rapidash even gets to A- says a lot about it. What it really comes down to is that Rapidash struggles to beat a lot of very common mons like Poliwrath and Pelipper, so the metagame does not favor poor Rapidash at all at the moment. The utlity is still really nice, and so is the speed, but Rapidash just is not as effective as it has been.
  • Sableye is still a very good mon, but the metagame currently does not favor what Sableye provides. Sableye does have really good resists and immunities, but Sableye is so borderline to being bulky that a good number of neutral hits can 2HKO Sableye no problem. What's left is a mon that relies on resists that are just not in high demand at the moment.
  • Bellossom has fallen far, but that's just how it goes. Bellossom does not really check any Waters anymore, at least not reliably, and there are other gluemons that can provide similar support better. There is also the fact that Bellossom is not very strong in on itself, so you are left with a mon that is a momentum sink that only provides okay support.
  • Relicanth is a bulky mon that has no recovery. So while Relicanth's resists to Normal and Flying are appreciated, Relicanth just hates chip damage so much. Relicanth does have some really cool calcs going for it, like how LO Rhydon can 3HKO, but that requires Relicanth to not have any chip damage at all. Would be better if it had some recovery...then it would probably be one of the best mons in the tier. Rock Polish is also a difficult sweep to pull off, since it is stopped by mons like Poliwrath and Gastrodon and those mons are only on every team.
  • Why use Lopunny when you can use Purugly? Encore is neat and so is Jump Kick, but not breaking the 105 benchmark and being fairly weak means that Lopunny cannot escape Purugly's shadow.


  • Voltorb is the best lead Rain has, so I placed it with Onix. Voltorb is very fast for a lead too, so the Taunt + RD + Explosion is a very good start to a match. The only thing keeping Voltorb from being higher is how Rain is just not that great.
  • Furret is a cool lead with some calcs going for it. Good speed and ok enough power means that Furret works as a pretty good Antilead that also has U-Turn.
  • Actually just click this so Chrisloud can explain these mons.


edit: forgot to mention that Murkrow, Marowak, Tangela, and Quagsire also moved around

I don't expect to touch this for a while, but going into the future I do want to see more discussion over Roselia. I've been thinking a lot about the mon, but I want more opinions.
 
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Well since PUPL is never happening at this point I just figured I'd drop one of my favorite ORAS teams that basically carried me through countless tournaments and wins on the ladder.​

Cacturne (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain

Stoutland (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Return
- Pursuit
- Superpower

Floatzel @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Prinplup @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Toxic

Golem (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Explosion

Zebstrika (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
 

pancake

movement and location
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hey top 1 old gens pu player here to post some teams from classic (people already forgot about this but I didn't!). This tour took place during an extremely busy and stressful time in my life, yet I still managed to be a finalist and I think if I had been less stressed out I definitely could've won. Unfortunately things didn't work out that way but I just wanted to congratulate miyoka for winning and thank some people for helping me out along the way.

Slowbroth, Megazard, amberlamps - i was stressed out and couldn't build. you guys came throw with adv and bw teams respectively. i can't thank you guys enough. :))) you guys have also been super supportive throughout my time in pu, especially zard because my tutor, and just really great people and friends lol
Akir, TJ, Chrisloud, Jungle Fox, GeneralAnnoyance, HJAD, iRebel, Specs Jigg, Shuckle, LST, skitty - many of you tested or helped build, and many of you are also great friends. love you guys and thank you so much!!! <3
s/o everyone that i forgot
s/o everyone else
fuck dundies

since DPP is really my thing dropping some teams that I think could be considered samples! actually just kidding the first one and the second one i guess if you delete kushalos' but not the third one lol

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Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast
- Vacuum Wave

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Pursuit
- Ice Shard
- Frustration

Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Stench
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Poison Jab
- Curse

Rapidash @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Morning Sun

Metang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Atk / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick
- Thunderbolt


This team which I made with Akir i feel like is my most successful and reliable team so I feel like it should be added to samples. Not much innovation here just a very solid team that covers a lot of the metagame and won many games throughout the classic. If you want to add this to samples akir i'll write a formal description for it but lol


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Machoke @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback
- Protect
- Bullet Punch

Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Aqua Tail

Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Energy Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Spikes

Rhydon @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Waterfall
- Encore

Electabuzz @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Static
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Low Kick
- Psychic


I already posted this team but it's still the goat team but it's very similar to kushalos' sample (we came up with the same idea at the same time) so it shouldn't be a sample prolly. Anyway Dragonair + SubEncore Poliwrath have been talken about already, one of my most reliable teams still despite the meta's changing.


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Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Vacuum Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Poison Jab
- Brick Break / Ice Punch
- Protect

Golduck @ Life Orb
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Psychic

Cacturne @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Dark Pulse
- Energy Ball
- Synthesis

Metang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Atk / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Pursuit

Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Filter
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Healing Wish


wow innovation from a very not innovative person lol. CurseTect Muk is super fun and cool and balances a lot of the pros of CroMuk with the benefits of Offensive Curse Muk and is amazing in a metagame dominated by Victreebel because it allows you to scout its set or waste a sun turn while still retaining an offensive presence. Unfortunately this set did not get used but it is very cool. CM Golduck is also very antimeta right now, people who use poliwrath as their water resist just click x lol. I don't think this should be a sample because it isn't as reliable as the Sneasel team from earlier but it is fun.


saving the rest for pupl, see you then :^)
 
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ANNOUNCEMENT:

BATON PASS WILL NOW BE LIMITED TO ONE POKEMON PER TEAM IN ADV PU


REASONING:

Similar to DPP PU, ADV PU will be implementing the Baton Pass Clause, where each team cannot have more than one Pokemon with the move Baton Pass. In addtion, passing boosts is still allowed except the Pokemon that can use Baton Pass cannot pass speed boosts (i.e. Agility or Salac Berry) in conjunction with another stat (i.e. Attack or Special Attack). As PUPL approaches, it was necessary to enforce a restriction on "Baton Pass chain" teams in ADV PU to make matches more competitive in general as these teams are not only heavily matchup based usually in their favor, but also because of the fact that there is a strict lack of sufficient counterplay to it in the tier, as Roar Mightyena and other niche phazers or answers are essentially the only surefire stops to teams of those archetypes. Pokemon such as Aipom, Minun, Delcatty, Beedrill and Ledian are highly effective Baton Passers in chained teams; Aipom and Minun are able to pass defense or speed boosts, Delcatty capable of passing Calm Mind boosts and Beedrill and Ledian capable of passing Swords Dance boosts. When utilized together on the same team, once one of members were able to set up, it became easier and easier to set up more boosts until the boosts were finally passed to an offensive Pokemon to abuse and sweep. In essence, if a team did not have one of the few answers to Baton Pass chain teams, it was pretty much game over. By limiting Baton Pass to only be used on one Pokemon per team, teams can still utilize Baton Pass for keeping up momentum, as "dry passing" is not broken in any way, as well as being able to pass boosts in a more restrained fashion, which also is not overly broken.

This clause will take effect immediately for all games in ADV PU from here on out.
 
/

A Fresh Start(er): Balance Offense (3 Different Starters with 3 Different Types from 3 Different Generations)

Having not played since the Dunsparce ban, I just recently got back into playing ADV PU again. Even though the metagame had only lost one Pokemon, the tier had changed so much since Pre-Sparce. Wanting to start playing ADV again, but not knowing where exactly to start, I decided to take my previous Yanma Offense team and update it.

I decided to keep Minun, Yanma, Dragonair, and Marshtomp. Minun is still, in my opinion, the best lead in the ADV PU metagame. It outspeeds all common leads besides opposing Minun (whom you just Toxic unless you lose the speed tie and they sub), and it forces the opponent to hard switch in their Ivysaur or their Dragonair. Yanma and Dragonair are two of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier, with each being able to clean late game with their SubReversal and Dragon Dance sets respectfully. Marshtomp was my Dragonair check and Physical Wall. You may wonder why I have Marshtomp and Omanyte slashed. Truth is this team had a hard matchup vs Normal Spam teams, and Omanyte can check Doduo, Aipom, and Yanma better than Marshtomp could while setting up Spikes in the process. Running Omanyte does make this team more susceptible to Agility +3 Attacks Dragonair.

Lastly, I've added Ivysaur and Quilava. Previously I had Dunsparce and Combusken, but the former is now banned and the latter has lost some viability because of the former's ban. CroSaur is my favorite Pokemon on the team, being an Electric resist, a Water resist, a Grass resist, a pivot, and a win condition all in one. Quilava patches up holes for the team, including being a Fire-type switch in, and either a secondary priority user or a phazer.

Team Importable w/ Marshtomp: http://pokepast.es/a87c3a54386ae7bd
Team Importable w/ Omanyte: http://pokepast.es/f3744255bbe36c7a

 
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With the Arena Trap ban in ORAS OU, is it now also illegal on Trapinch? Generally transitivity would mean that it would be, but I'm curious since afaik pinch was never really a problem mon.
 
I haven't actually talked in this thread before, but I have to say that some of these tiers caught my attention (especially Gen 3 PU, what a great Gen) so much that about two months ago I built them into my psim. Was just wondering if anyone had a problem with this? Regardless, thanks for keeping this cool community going!


EDIT: These tiers also have playable ladders and could be set up for suspect testing in the conventional manner if it was requested, although with the player base not being all that big the current method seems potentially more reliable.
 
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Akir

Jump Jump Jump
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
So I have been watching a lot of Gen5 PU recently, with the ladder and the PUPL being around, and I have decided to make a post about a common trend that I have noticed. Please note that this isn't a "callout" or whatever, as I do these things too. It is mainly a critique of how we come at Gen5 PU. Now, let's begin the essay:

Bronzor Love
image.png

How I Learned to Stop Resting and Love Torterra
(Credit to Dibs The Dreamer for the art)


Going into PUPL3, I was interested to see how BW2 PU had evolved from PUPL2. The difference was pretty noticeable between the two. Take a look for yourself: here's PUPL2 and here's PUPL3. PUPL3 teams were more sturdy, and had in general a lot more thought put into them. This led to a much more fleshed out metagame and better games. However, I also noticed something strange. I noticed that a lot of people were building BW2 teams a lot like they would build ORAS teams. This isn't entirely wrong to do, but it does ignore a lot of what makes BW2 special. Case in point: Bronzor.

Some BW2 players, mainly Omfuga and myself, have come out to say "Bronzor sucks!" and when we say that, we do not mean that Bronzor is useless. It is just way overused and oversold. Just look at its run in PUPL3:
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
| 1 | Bronzor | 8 | 40.00% | 25.00% |

The most used mon in BW2 in PUPL3 has a 25% winrate. There can be the argument of "well Omfuga didn't use it and won all of his matches, so that skews the results some!" but that is only partially true.

That being said, the reasoning for using Bronzor makes sense in context. ORAS Bronzor would be fantastic in the tier, with so many valuable resists and dodging Spikes and decent damage output with Psywave. The thing is though, this isn't ORAS. As a result, the Bronzor set for ORAS works in a strict sense but is far from ideal. Rest turns reset when you switch out, meaning that a Bronzor with only Rest has to make itself into a sitting duck if it wants to heal. Since switching out resets sleep turns, you need to be confident in the consistent 4HKO for Bronzor to actually do anything other than Rest, let others set up, and die, once it has to heal. This is a critical flaw in using the ORAS spread for Bronzor and that's not even touching the fact that Psywave has 80% accuracy this gen. Bronzor best encapsulates the problem that I see atm with BW2 builds: they are just discount ORAS builds, and in worst case can lead to a fatal flaw in our teams simply because we aren't taking BW2's identity into account. BW2 has its own identity that needs to be appreciated in order for the tier to evolve and advance in a meaningful way.

The lack of good hazard removal means that balance is all but dead in practice. There are some mons like Banette that are incredibly effective in BW2 but aren't in ORAS. There are multiple varieties and archetypes of offense that work with their own matchups against one another that just isn't addressed in some builds or in most conversations. There are still a lot of things to discover in this gen, but even the people who play it sometimes just plays it like ORAS-with-a-twist. It is...frankly lazy. That includes me too, I have also been lazy.

On a good note though, once I realized that I wasn't building BW2 in a BW2 way, I realized that Torterra was close to everything I wanted in a Bronzor. Rocks, recovery, plenty of great resists, not necessarily setup fodder, and can even tank Fraxure. Torterra is, imo, the true replacement for Bronzor: it fits the meta more. It tanks a lot of the hits you are wanting, while keeping offensive pressure up. Most importantly, it isn't setup fodder. If you do want to continue using Bronzor though, I have a couple sets to suggest that fit the gen more.
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Hypnosis

Since "Sleep = Death" in BW2, shedding Rest on Bronzor in favor of its own Hypnosis actually works out really well in practice. The accuracy is a bit rough, but grabbing the hit on the switch-in or setup is incredibly valuable. Double Status Bronzor embraces the inherent passiveness of the mon and pushes it into a solid support role. EVs are so +1 Fraxure cannot 2HKO with Superpower, with plenty of Sp.Def bulk to take on Beheeyem too.

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psywave
- Toxic / Stealth Rock

Just to be clear, EVs are so that Bronzor is not 2HKOd by +1 Superpower from Fraxure even after 2 rounds of Stealth Rock damage. I actually sat down and did the math, so the fact that it actually came out as the ORAS spread is funny. I bet no one knew that the spread did that though ;D. The rest of the set is just accepting the fact that Bronzor does like healing even though Rest is terrible. Sleep Talk lets Bronzor continue to do things even while asleep, which in longer games this means that Bronzor will likely only be using Sleep Talk.

the tl;dr of this is that Bronzor needs to run Sleep Talk or not run Rest at all.


So this is a post to say that BW2 has come a long way, but has a long way to go. Obviously this is an opinion piece, so take from it what you will. I just wanted to make this post just to say that BW2 is neglected and we can do better than what we have been.
 
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I'm not necessarily sure this mon is really worth much in ADV PU, but I feel as though it has a niche that could at least be worth being ranked (even if it is just C-).

Cacnea @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Sunny Day

Cacnea's access to Sunny Day, Spikes and Destiny Bond make for quite a decent Sun + Spikes suicide lead, similarly to how Pineco can be used. Unlike Pineco, Cacnea puts immediate pressure on any lead Marshtomp or Omanyte, two very common leads in the tier. The Speed given allows it to outpace bulky Marshtomp and OHKO Physically Defensive sets with HP Grass. The defenses allow it to survive two +Atk Banded Marshtomp Body Slams roughly 70% of the time after Leftovers recovery, meaning it can generally set both Spikes and Sun before going down. It is worth noting that HP Grass is a guaranteed OHKO on any Omanyte, and that Cacnea has a roughly 70% chance to live an Ice Beam from an uninvested Omanyte.


- Max Speed Cacnea is faster than Clamperl and speed ties with offensive +Spe Omanyte outside of Rain, and therefore isn't necessarily a bad option. However, Cacnea's Speed stat is still only 35 and there is no way to boost this.
- Leech Seed can be ran over Destiny Bond on the lead sets to help whittle away at the opponent, but Destiny Bond is generally more useful as longevity isn't important to a suicide lead.
- A Sandstorm + Substitute + Leech Seed set utilising Sand Veil could be ran if you really wanted to annoy people.
- Cacnea can also utilise Swords Dance to break through resists, but neither its speed tier or physical movepool favour this offensive role.
- Other Utility options: Body Slam, Cotton Spore, Counter, Encore, Endure, Grass Whistle, Seismic Toss, Toxic
 
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Warning: Over exaggerations are very much possible in this area. Especially in the calculations.

Murkrow B --> A-/A
Murkrow has been dominating DPP PU. This is thanks to a combination of a great offensive typing, coverage, and stats. With a combination of Brave Bird and Sucker Punch, Murkrow is able to hit a good amount of the meta for STAB neutral, if not super effective, damage, barring Steel-types. This is where Heat Wave comes in, allowing it to hit those Steel-type mons, along with Hidden Power Grass, to hit certain other mons that give it trouble, like Rhydon and Gastrodon. It can also run Hidden Power Fighting in that slot, for Probopass while still picking up a 2HKO on Rhydon, but that's compared to hitting Gastrodon, a much more common mon, and the OHKO HP Grass gets on Rhydon. It also has decent base 85 Attack and Special Attack, which, when combined with the Life Orb, can really pack a punch. On top of this, it also has a nice base 91 Speed, which allows it to outspeed a good amount of the meta, and even has the previously mentioned Sucker Punch to hit faster threats. Sadly, Murkrow's defenses aren't too good, and even takes a pretty large amount from a priority user like Purugly or Cacturne. This damage also is easily stacked with the recoil from its Life Orb and Brave Bird, along with potential Stealth Rock. Other threats include Sneasel, who outspeeds and doesn't fear Sucker Punch too much, Rapidash, who also outspeeds and can take advantage of Sucker Punch by using Morning Sun or Will-O-Wisp, and the previously mentioned Probopass, who just doesn't take very much from anything besides HP Fighting. Despite this, I still believe it deserves a spot in the VR's A-, and maybe even A, but that might just be a slight exaggeration.
Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Heat Wave
Brave Bird:
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 398-470 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victreebel: 542-642 (180 - 213.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 243-286 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 199-235 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cacturne: 576-678 (204.9 - 241.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 288-340 (110.3 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golduck: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golbat: 255-301 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machoke: 512-606 (170 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 138-163 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 255-301 (94 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 190-225 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 271-321 (122.6 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Sucker Punch:
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Purugly: 184-217 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 386-456 (147.8 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 386-456 (119.5 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Electabuzz: 222-262 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 626-740 (283.2 - 334.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Mr. Mime: 271-321 (122.6 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Heat Wave:
4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metang: 198-234 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Hidden Power Grass:
4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rhydon: 428-508 (121.9 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Gastrodon: 240-284 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Hidden Power Fighting:
4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Probopass: 164-196 (50.6 - 60.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rhydon: 214-254 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Defensive:
252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Murkrow: 105-124 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Victreebel Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 105-124 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Victreebel Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 210-247 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 129-153 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 82-96 (31.4 - 36.7%) -- 73.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 79-93 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- 32.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Glalie Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 186-222 (71.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
IDK, it apparently did pretty well in the Grand Slam. Check those, I'm too lazy.
Oh yeah, also Christmas joke.
 
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Akir

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Because so many people have been asking me for it, this is a post about the alternative version of Gen4 PU:

Honkmeta Resource Post

  • What is Honkmeta?
Honkmeta is the loving name given to the version of Gen4 PU that has its usage stats taken from tournament stats rather than ladder stats. It is called Honkmeta because user Honko is the one who first proposed it. The other version, the one based off of ladder usage, is called Akirmeta when the distinction is needed.

Here is the full legal list:

Note: Articuno, Linoone, and Victreebel are banned from the tier.

Ampharos
Arbok
Ariados
Armaldo
Banette
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Beedrill
Bellossom
Bibarel
Butterfree
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Chimecho
Corsola
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong
Ditto
Dunsparce
Dustox
Electabuzz
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Furret
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Huntail
Illumise
Kecleon
Kingler
Kricketune
Lapras
Ledian
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Luxray
Magcargo
Mantine
Marowak
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Mr. Mime
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Persian
Phione
Pidgeot
Pinsir
Plusle
Politoed
Porygon2
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Raichu
Rampardos
Rapidash
Raticate
Regigigas
Relicanth
Roselia
Sableye
Seaking
Seviper
Shedinja
Shuckle
Slaking
Spinda
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Torkoal
Tropius
Unown
Vespiquen
Volbeat
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wormadam
Wormadam-Sandy
Wormadam-Trash
Xatu
Zangoose

All NFEs EXCEPT:
Chansey
Dusclops
Gligar
Haunter
Hippopotas
Magneton
Porygon2
Rhydon
Roselia
Sneasel
Snover
Wynaut


  • The lists are largely the same, but there are some differences:
Honk-Specific: Camerupt, Crawdaunt, Golem, Mantine, Ninetales, Pinsir, Porygon2, Roselia, Torkoal, Whiscash

Akir-Specific: Cacturne, Dusclops, Glalie, Lickilicky, Muk, Poliwrath, Solrock

Note: Porygon2, Mantine, Roselia, and Whiscash will not be included here, as they are too new

camerupt.png

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Earthquake / Earth Power
- Toxic / Roar

Camerupt's resist in Honkmeta of Fire and immunity to Electric is highly sought-after, and this set tries to make the most of it. Earthquake is preferred over Earth Power due to the fact that Calm Mind Ninetales can actually set up on Camerupt otherwise, and going with Earthquake lets Camerupt go with Toxic instead of Roar. If you go Earth Power, then definitely run Roar just in case. A Choice Specs set is also a possibility, as Camerupt can hit like a truck, but in general the ability to check Ninetales and Electabuzz reliably is much too valuable to overlook.

crawdaunt.png

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Substitute

After 1 Dragon Dance, Crawdaunt outspeeds almost all of the unboosted tier and has plenty of power to sweep lategame. HP Grass is chosen as coverage so Crawdaunt can get past Quagsire, who takes about 80-90% from it. Crawdaunt is the first mon on this list that is "a true monstrosity when it sets up" but the offensive pressure in Honkmeta is what keeps it from doing so. Crawdaunt can find some difficult times to set up, and that is why Substitute is also recommended over HP Grass if needed. The lack of Poliwrath is a huge boon in Crawdaunt's favor but the lack of bulk is more of a hinderance.

golem.png

Golem @ Choice Band / Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Explosion / Stealth Rock

It is actually a pretty common thing to ask "is Golem like Rhydon in Akirmeta?" and the answer is no. However, Golem is still a solid mon in its own right. With a Choice Band it can be very difficult to switch in on, and the Explosion is going to kill just about anything that isn't immune or Probopass. EdgeQuake coverage is still fantastic and difficult to cover in Gen4 PU, and the addition of Sucker Punch means that Golem isn't dogged by the same low speed problems as Rhydon. The main difference between Golem and Rhydon is actually in the focus of the format: Honkmeta is significantly more offensive and is more likely to carry threats that naturally check Golem, so Golem isn't as much of a force. An offensive Stealth Rock set is also viable, as Golem still has decent bulk and still causes a lot of switches.

ninetales.png

Ninetales @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Meet the metagame: Ninetales. Ninetales is fast, brutally powerful, and has plenty of coverage to make mincemeat out of the tier if people do not properly prepare. Nasty Plot Ninetales breaks balance and stall teams alike, while still applying ample pressures to offense due to Ninetales being faster than most of the tier and having very, very few true switchins when at +2. Ninetales also has a large variety of sets that it can do besides Nasty Plot, such as: SubCM, SubToxic, 4 AoA, and Choice Specs. It really is not an understatement to say that Ninetales is the posterchild for Honkmeta at the moment.

pinsir.png

Pinsir @ Lum Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Quick Attack / X-Scissor

Funny enough, I get the feeling that Pinsir would actually be better in Akirmeta. Nonetheless, Pinsir excels in breaking down stall teams with its great coverage and power. Pinsir's bulk and interesting resistances to types like Ground also means that Pinsir can find a pretty easy time setting up against more passive teams. The speed is the main letdown of Pinsir, as 85 is not all that great in this offensive metagame. Nonetheless, Pinsir is one of the tier's best stallbreakers that rightfully should be feared by defensive teams alike.

torkoal.png

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Lava Plume
- Earthquake / Earth Power

Two spinners. TWO SPINNERS. Torkoal literally doubles the amount of hazard removal in the tier, and does so with class. The Fire resist means that Torkoal gets a lot of opportunities to switch in against threats like Rapidash, and can even work as a soft Ninetales check. The great bulk also means that Torkoal can stay around for a while, and the utility of Lava Plume and Stealth Rock means that Torkoal is an asset to many teams. The downsides of Torkoal are about the same as Armaldo: Speed is too low, weak to the Stealth Rock it is trying to remove, no real recovery. Regardless, having a second option for spinning is a world of difference.

Rapidash_BW.gif

Rapidash @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Frustration
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

Rapidash is actually so insanely good in Honkmeta that I broke out a different sprite for it. Rapidash is an insanely splashable mon that is used to check a massive portion of the metagame, including such tyrants as Ninetales and Pinsir. The typing and ability gives it plenty of good resists, most notably to Fire, and the speed means that it is really only outsped by Purugly. The fast Will-o-Wisp also means that Rapidash gives plenty of utility for offensive and defensive teams alike, and the addition of Morning Sun means that Rapidash's longevity is something that most other mons in the format could only dream on. Rapidash also excels in luring in threats with a good Solarbeam set or can simply smash through with a Choice Band set. Whatever you do with it, chances are good that it will end up on your team.
bellossom.png

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Toxic / Stun Spore
- Sleep Powder
- Synthesis

Bellossom, without a Lickilicky to rain on its parade, re-emerges as the premiere specially defensive wall of the tier. Resists to Water and Grass are sought after on the special side, and Bellossom's bulk is actually quite formidable when invested. The utility that Bellossom provides is also a huge boon that lets it fall into a lot of teams: Sleep Powder is never bad, and the additional options of Toxic and Stun Spore lets Bellossom spread the love around. Definitely a lot better in this format.

quagsire.png

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Surf
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Curse
- Recover

Quagsire benefits immensely from the lack of Poliwrath and becomes the physical wall it always dreamed of. Resisting Fire is always a huge deal, but Quagsire can take the hits and strike back just as well. Quagsire can also heal, which already makes it one of the more reliable Fire checks. Quagsire's bulk also is great for the format, and can prove to be a pain to dislodge. Poor thing is still hindered by the exploitable Grass weakness though.

relicanth.png

Relicanth @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Natural Gift
- Rock Polish

Much like Quagsire, Relicanth loves the lack of Poliwrath...but for different reasons. After a Rock Polish, Relicanth cleanly outspeeds all but the fastest scarfers and has the bulk to absorb some attacks meant to revenge kill. Backed up by some extremely powerful attacks, Relicanth can decimate most teams after 1 Rock Polish, which is really easy to get thanks to the solid defensive typing and defenses in general. The added Liechi Berry gives Relicanth Grass coverage to round out the moves, while also providing a small chance to get an Attack boost. Overall an incredibly scary mon to be sure.


  • Resources:
It should be noted that this VR is extremely rough, as the metagame is still very raw. However, I put this together to give people an idea as to what the metagame looked like. See a visual list of the mons here! Credit to 5gen for the googledoc.

New Additions:
Mantine
Porygon2
Rhydon
Roselia
Sneasel
Whiscash

S:
Ninetales
Rapidash
Relicanth

A:
Armaldo
Bellossom
Camerupt
Crawdaunt
Electabuzz
Fearow
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Kecleon
Machoke
Marowak
Misdreavus
Mr. Mime
Pinsir
Probopass
Purugly
Rampardos
Raichu
Raticate
Sableye
Sharpedo
Torkoal
Quagsire
Xatu

B:
Ampharos
Bibarel
Chatot
Exploud
Flareon
Gastly
Gastrodon
Granbull
Kingler
Lapras
Mawile
Monferno
Parasect
Pelipper
Politoed
Raticate
Regice
Regigigas
Slaking
Stantler
Swalot
Tropius
Walrein
Wormadan-Sandy
Zangoose

C: Everything Else

  • "Lordicanth" Relicanth Offense, Dibs the Dreamer
very antihappy (Sharpedo) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Taunt

nay nay (Rapidash) @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Megahorn
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Morning Sun

armorless cobalion (Stantler) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Energy Ball

lordicanth (Relicanth) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Natural Gift
- Rock Polish

good unfezant lel (Fearow) @ Choice Band
Ability: Keen Eye
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- U-turn

my head is hurted (Rampardos) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- Zen Headbutt

Actually lost it, so be back later!


  • November Stall v2, November Rain (updated by Akir)
Misdreavus @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Heal Bell
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Surf
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Recover

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder
- Synthesis

Armaldo @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Rapid Spin
- Stone Edge
- Toxic

Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem
- Flash Cannon
- Toxic / Thunder Wave / Sandstorm

Rapidash @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Frustration
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

  • Pretty straightforward stall team built for this metagame.
  • Misdreavus is chosen as the lead strictly to pressure other leads like Monferno and should not be out for more than a turn.
  • The core of Quagsire/Bellossom is the core of the team, as they cover each other's weaknesses, both in typing and in defensive spreads.
  • Armaldo is the spinner as Armaldo's resists round out the original defensive core nicely, and the additional Normal resist is always handy.
  • Probopass is then chosen as the backup special wall that provides Stealth Rock and can work in a number of ways depending on what you would prefer it to do with its 4th moveslot.
  • Rapidash is chosen as the last mon, as it provides a secondary answer for Ninetales and provides a way to deal with stallbreakers like Pinsir and Raichu.


  • Ninetales Offense, Akir
Purugly @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Thick Fat
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Frustration
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn

Ninetales @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock

Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Trick
- Memento

Raticate @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn

Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Encore

  • Team leads with Purugly, as it works as an antilead that gives plenty of momentum to the team from turn 1
  • Ninetales is the primary wallbreaker for this team, as it has a tendency to obliterate teams with 1 turn of setup
  • Golem is chosen as the rocker, is it packs a punch and provides wallbreaking potential and more priority
  • Misdreavus is chosen as the revenge killer, as it can grab the KO on mons like Relicanth after a Rock Polish. Also provides Trick for stallbreaking and also Memento to help Ninetales set up. Alternatively, you can keep Misdreavus for an endgame wincon after ninetales is done cleaning.
  • Raticate is then put on the team to make a U-Turn core with Purugly while providing plenty of power still. This thing hits like a truck and the speed is fantastic for Honkmeta
  • Politoed is the last chosen for the defensive synergy is provides as it rounds out the Ninetales/Golem/Politoed core and provides Encore utility for just-in-case scenarios
  • Will probably edit this later but it's ok for learning the format.



  • Which Gen4 PU is the one for tournaments?
Akirmeta is the "default meta" and is to be referenced when people talk about Gen4. If you mean Honkmeta, you have to say it is as such. No tournaments will follow Honkmeta unless specifically said otherwise.

  • So...why bring this metagame up?
People asked. Besides, somewhere in between Honkmeta and Akirmeta is the theoretical "true Gen4 PU" as it would have been back in the day. So it is interesting to ponder on.

I reserve the right to add on to this post, but I am tired now so I'm going to sleep.
 
Last edited:

Honko

he of many honks
is a member of the Site Staffis a Programmeris a Contributor to Smogon
For anyone curious, I also posted some updated DPP NU tourney stats that included 2017 NUPL at the end of this post. If you wanted to play an updated Honkmeta PU, the changes from the previous Honkmeta (the one Akir described above) would be:
+ Mantine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Roselia, Sneasel, Whiscash
- Regice, Sharpedo

I haven't played Honkmeta at all since the original tournament, but it seems like these changes might slow things down a bit, since defensive Porygon2 hard-counters the Fire-types and Mantine limits them as well (Ninetales could beat Mantine with HP Electric, but that makes it lose to other Fire-types). Porygon2 in general seems like it would be awesome both offensively and defensively. Whiscash would probably be a top threat since it soft-checks a lot of the mons in the S- and A-ranks and therefore should have a much easier time setting up a DD than Crawdaunt, although it is significantly less powerful. Sneasel should slide comfortably into the same trapper role it has in Akirmeta. Rhydon vs Golem would be an interesting teambuilding choice. Roselia would probably be banned if the meta slows down at all.

Just one more thing for people to play around with in the best gen ever!
 

Akir

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For the purposes of clarity, I want to make this clear now: yes, Honkmeta will have the new changes outlined in the post above. I will be editing the Resource post to include the changes as soon as more of the metagame is fleshed out. To prevent htis from being a one-liner post though, I'll talk about my first impressions of the new additions.

  • Porygon2: Really excited to see that Nasty Plot Ninetales has a GSI now. That being said though, the stats are pretty mediocre even for PU, so I really do not initially see this mon being the dawn of the new stall age. Will be very good, but mainly as a support mon I would guess.
  • Mantine: Rain Sweeper. Yeah the SpDef set sounds great, it really does, but I think I will try Rain first with this thing. Rain has always wanted a good sweeper, and it might have just gotten it.
  • Rhydon + Sneasel: Welcome back! Guess you two are Gen4 PU mainstays. I expect Rhydon to have about as much impact as Golem, but Sneasel is now the fastest thing in a tier with no Poliwrath. Very excited to see how Sneasel will pan out.
  • Whiscash: DD sounds very, very fun. Has enough bulk to set up on a lot of the tier but does lack in the power department. I am thinking a set with SubDD would be my first bet.
  • Roselia: -.-
Quick post due to time constraints, but I wanted it to be "official".
 
Hi, I just checked the viability rankings, the threatlist and the PU banlist in gen 5 and I see some forgotten pokémons. There is :
• Altaria
• Regice
• Lapras
• Floatzel
• Cacturne
• Electrode
• Drifblim
• Ninjask
• Cradily
• Ditto
• Weezing
• Basculin
• Gigalith
• and Bastiodon
Sprite_5_n_334.png
Sprite_5_n_378.png
Sprite_5_n_131.png
Sprite_5_n_419_m.png
Sprite_5_n_332_m.png
Sprite_5_n_101.png
Pokémonsprite_426_SW.gif
Sprite_5_n_291.png
Sprite_5_n_346.png
Sprite_5_n_132.png
Sprite_5_n_110.png
Pokémonsprite_550_SW.gif
Pokémonsprite_526_SW.gif
Sprite_5_n_411.png

What was their potential at that time? Most are necessarily above rank E

By the way, here are all the members of rank E: Kricketune, Lopunny, Masquerain, Delcatty, Mothim, Tropius, Castform, Lunatone, Ledian, Luvdisc, Purugly, Illumise, Girafarig, Plusle, Seviper, Pachirisu, Delibird, Cherrim, Emolga, Beartic , Minun, Wormadam (s), Sunflora, Solrock, Dunsparce, Raticate, slaking, lumineon, Farfetch'd, Whiscash, Chimecho, Ariados, Stantler, Seaking, Dewgong, Heatmor, Beautifly, Chatot, Beedrill, Furret, Unow, Watchog, Walrein and Dustox

We also have some NFEs that have a strategic page on Smogon but have no rank: Golbat, Pineco, Wynaut, Dwebble, Scraggy and Servine

Finally, here are some cases that question me personally (if they have any niche in the PU gen 5): Vullaby, Trapinch, Prinplup, Vibrava, Clefairy, Abra, Pawniard, Lickitung, Slowpoke, Krokorok, Carvanha, Mienfoo or Meditite (after all Graveler, Gastly and Pupitar are well listed)
 
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Akir

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Hi, I just checked the viability rankings, the threatlist and the PU banlist in gen 5 and I see some forgotten pokémons. There is :
• Altaria
• Regice
• Lapras
• Floatzel
• Cacturne
• Electrode
• Drifblim
• Ninjask
• Cradily
• Ditto
• Weezing
• Basculin
• Gigalith
• and Bastiodon
View attachment 99671 View attachment 99672 View attachment 99673 View attachment 99674 View attachment 99675 View attachment 99676 View attachment 99677 View attachment 99678 View attachment 99679 View attachment 99680 View attachment 99681 View attachment 99682 View attachment 99683 View attachment 99684
What was their potential at that time? Most are necessarily above rank E

By the way, here are all the members of rank E: Kricketune, Lopunny, Masquerain, Delcatty, Mothim, Tropius, Castform, Lunatone, Ledian, Luvdisc, Purugly, Illumise, Girafarig, Plusle, Seviper, Pachirisu, Delibird, Cherrim, Emolga, Beartic , Minun, Wormadam (s), Sunflora, Solrock, Dunsparce, Raticate, slaking, lumineon, Farfetch'd, Whiscash, Chimecho, Ariados, Stantler, Seaking, Dewgong, Heatmor, Beautifly, Chatot, Beedrill, Furret, Unow, Watchog, Walrein and Dustox

We also have some NFEs that have a strategic page on Smogon but have no rank: Golbat, Pineco, Wynaut, Dwebble, Scraggy and Servine

Finally, here are some cases that question me personally (if they have any niche in the PU gen 5): Vullaby, Trapinch, Prinplup, Vibrava, Clefairy, Abra, Pawniard, Lickitung, Slowpoke, Krokorok, Carvanha, Mienfoo or Meditite (after all Graveler, Gastly and Pupitar are well listed)
Good evening!

So I will admit that you have found a rather large hole in the banlist, and for that I thank you. Unfortunately, information on BW2 PU is spotty at best, as a full mons list was never established and usage stats are hard to track down.

UNTIL TODAY

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-statistics-—-september-2013.3489031/#post-4859679

Here is the final usage update for BW NU, which means that this is the effective banlist for BW PU. Why I never thought to look for it there is beyond me...

So with that in mind, thank you for pointing out the problem so I could finally patch it! No, seriously, I really do appreciate it.

So to be clear:

+Lapras
+Gigalith
+Camerupt
-Pikachu
 
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Good evening!

So I will admit that you have found a rather large hole in the banlist, and for that I thank you. Unfortunately, information on BW2 PU is spotty at best, as a full mons list was never established and usage stats are hard to track down.

UNTIL TODAY

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-statistics-—-september-2013.3489031/#post-4859679

Here is the final usage update for BW NU, which means that this is the effective banlist for BW PU. Why I never thought to look for it there is beyond me...

So with that in mind, thank you for pointing out the problem so I could finally patch it! No, seriously, I really do appreciate it.

So to be clear:

+Lapras
+Gigalith
+Camerupt
-Pikachu
Thanks to you, especially for maintaining this format. If we base ourselves on these uses, Linoone is also concerned: | 88 | Linoone | 2.27870%
 
Linoone is the only "official" ban of BW PU, which was done last year and the reasoning can be found somewhere in this thread.

Regarding the changes, Camerupt seems mighty interesting to me. Though it's another ground rocker when we already have Torterra, Gabite, Krokorok, offensive rockers are always useful, and a specially based fire type can cut in stuff like Natu/Bronzor a lot easier. Specs seems like it might have potential as well, with Pelipper/Swanna/Mantine all very niche picks due to their inability - the tier's, really - to remove hazards, and being able to bop Chinchou with ground stab is nice. It can also have "some" defensive utility, thinking of how it can solidly check Klang and Muk for example, but I wouldn't really bother investing that much into it, typing is still poor in general and it's worn down way too much, but as an offensive threat this becomes a welcomed bonus.
 
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So gen 5 is my least favorite of the old gens but Lapras looks really cool for this considering most water checks are either bopped by Ice Beam (see all Grass types) or Thunderbolt (Mantine, Pelipper, etc.). I haven't played too much recently but the only high things on VR that really look like a problem for a Choice Specs set are Chinchou and Audino. BoltBeam coverage+strong water STAB looks super fun and could run some flex Hidden Power in the last slot. Low speed tier is unfortunate and stuff like Rotom/Zeb/Simisage and others don't look too fun for it but the bulk and coverage is there. I could definitely see myself getting back into gen 5 just to try this thing out.

e: just run Drill Run for Chinchou ez
 
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Akir

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Couple updates for everyone regarding the oldgens:

  1. Camerupt will not be included in BW PU. This is to maintain consistency from the previous 3 PUPLs. Nothing else is really changing, but it should still be noted that Camerupt will not be joining the tier.
  2. Articuno will not be suspect tested in DPP PU at this time. It has been bumped up to S rank however. The reason why it is not going to be suspect tested is because there has not been enough research into its effect on the tier, as counterplay has 95% been Metang and Articuno has only been a notable threat in 1 tournament so far.
  3. Dragonair will not be suspect tested in ADV PU at this time. The closest thing to being suspect tested is Sealeo, however there is no movement to do so at this time.
The tl;dr is that you can expect the mons list for all PU Oldgens to be locked into place. With the Bo3 tournament coming up, it has been decided that consistency through freezing the tiers is currently the best option moving forward. This does not mean that these tiers will no longer change ever again, but there are no plans to move any of them for a while.
 

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