Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Raiza]

Grumpig from B- to B

since im actually doing an analysis on this ill copy some things from there since it's the best way I can explain this nom to b
its a staple on stall teams, one of the few mon if not the only that can counter ninetales, regice and aurorus thanks to its ability, it's versatile, can perform both Cleric and Phazer and has really good overall stats for the tier apart from physical def. stall being not really viable ang grumpig with its limited coverage due to his moveset being Utility focused and lack of a decent recovery outside from Leftovers, since Rest limits its effectiveness, keep it away from being an excellent Pokemon but still deserves B rank at least cmon...

 

[Magnemite]

One last update so we can have a definitive final ranking for the Tauros / Kecleon meta:

Walrein from D to E
Electrode from C+ to C
Rapidash from B- to B
Mr. Mime from A to A-
Zebstrika from B to B+
Floatzel from B- to B
Marowak from A- to B+
Torterra from B+ to A-
Grumpig from B- to B

Also, shortly I'll be editing a history of the viability rankings into the second post of this thread, so look out for that if you care :o

 

[Froggyboy]

Get that disgusting outdated art out of here and replace it with this:

I'm playing Smite rn but have these for food of thought
Probopass to A+
Natu to D

 

[spookysocialist]

I agree with natu to D. It sucks, but so do carvahna and yanma, at least it has a small niche. Speaking of which, can we move the two gourg forms in D to E rank? Yeah I know that in a vacuum they're pretty good pokemon, but the fact is, they are literally completely outclassed by either the small or or largest gourg forms.

 

[HoennZach]

With the 3 main Normal threats (Bouf, Tauros, and Kek) I think its time to look at some of the normal types that may define new generation of normal spam



Ursaring from B to A
Ursaring is a pokemon with no counter but quite a few checks that change depending on which set it runs. The SD Guts set allows Ursaring to completely power through any stall team in existence OHKOing-2HKOing every single thing on stall, but doesn't due as well vs offense because of its very poor speed that will allow it to be easily revenge killed. On the other hand Quick Feet Ursa preforms very well against offense outspeeding base 105 mons and lower, but lacks the power of the guts set which allows stall to preform better against Ursaring.
Raticate from C to B+/B
Credit for this goes to gas since he basically brang up the idea for sd guts rat
Raticate is like the middle child between the 2 Ursaring sets, not as fast as quick feet but stronger and faster than guts but weaker. This does let Raticate do well vs both Stall and Offense. Probopass is just about the only thing that rat has a problem with as even CroBink gets 2HKOd by a +2 Façade and anything faster just straight up dies to sucker punch. Raticate is pretty much an Ursaring that gives up Fighting coverage and some bulk for priority and a mixture of speed and power that lets it deal with both offensive and defensive teams

Some DMG Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 319-376 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 148-174 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 161-190 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 167-197 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 338-398 (129.5 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and last but not least
Stoutland from B+ to A-
Stoutland now has a niche outside of sand with Tauros gone being a very powerful Choice Band abuser with Scrappy to more reliably spam his normal STAB. Anything that resists a banded Frustration will not like Superpower and offensive Poliwrath get 2hkod by Return while Pelipper gets completely decimated by Wild Charge.

Some Dog Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 200 HP / 4 Def Poliwrath: 298-352 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 416-492 (128.7 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 556-656 (182.8 - 215.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 246-291 (84.5 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Froggyboy]

While I agree Dog and Ursaring should move up, Dog being A- like you said, and Urasring being B+, you are shooting WAY too high for Raticate. Firstly, it has a very hard time setting up Swords Dances, due to its bad bulk, and there are things that can live Raticate's Facade or Sucker Punch, thus meaning dead rat. Plus your calcs are misleading, Raticate should never run Adamant, as it needs the speed it has, and with Adamant, you are just revenged easier. Though I'll admit its decent on hazard stacking teams, thanks to Pawniard discouraging Defogs, maybe a move up to C+ or B- could be warranted.

 

[gasquakee]

Raticate for B:
yes someone already said this but I think thats a bit too much for it. The main thing that interested me with raticate was that it makes such a good wallbreaker. Avalugg can't even switch into guts facade after rocks.

+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 319-376 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It makes an outstanding wall breaker and cleaner especially now since it has more room to show off its normalness.

also why did everyone start trying to take my rat ;-; get your own C mon!

 

[gasquakee]

While I agree Dog and Ursaring should move up, Dog being A- like you said, and Urasring being B+, you are shooting WAY too high for Raticate. Firstly, it has a very hard time setting up Swords Dances, due to its bad bulk, and there are things that can live Raticate's Facade or Sucker Punch, thus meaning dead rat. Plus your calcs are misleading, Raticate should never run Adamant, as it needs the speed it has, and with Adamant, you are just revenged easier. Though I'll admit its decent on hazard stacking teams, thanks to Pawniard discouraging Defogs, maybe a move up to C+ or B- could be warranted.

Yeah Rat can run adamant and is the reason why Avalugg cant switch in. Common things in its speed tier can be killed by +2 quick attack anyways. Examples: Mr. Mime, Frogadier, Chatot. Also not much barring a rock or a steel type can live a +2 Facade from Raticate anyways. Avalugg actually gets 1hko'd after rocks. Oh and I would run Crunch w/ Quick attack so you dont lose to ghosts.

 

[Grim]

Lol didn't Natu get unranked like a month ago or something? Even with Magic Bounce I see very little reason to even consider using it. The only thing it does is sometimes switch into a predicted hazard while wasting a teamslot. I have tried it before and it really puts in very little work. I have literally never seen a Natu being used succesfully, unlike Carvanha and Yanma.

No opinion on Probopass. I think that while it's a good Pokemon its typing and offensive stats hold it back too much to be A+, but not entirely opposed to it because it does have nice utility and checks some common threats like Ninetales.

Ursaring is a good Pokemon but A is way too high for it lol. Sure, its Facade's destroy stall but stall is not really common anyway. It has practically zero safe switch-ins but is revenge killed pretty easily because of Toxic Orb and only mediocre bulk. Not sure where it should go, but A is too high.

No opinion on Raticate, but it kind of sounds like you guys are just theorymonning here. .-.

If anything Scrappy Stoutland got worse since the Tauros ban, since Normal-spam has received quite a heavy blow. Stoutland is pretty nice and 2HKOes the majority of PU, but moving it up to A- seems really stupid to me. Btw, Wild Charge Stoutland is bad as Return already 2HKOes Pelipper. The best set is Return, Play Rough, Superpower, Facade / Crunch.


Now for some nominations:

Duosion to B+. Probably somewhat controversial, but Duosion is really good. It sets up quite easily against common Pokemon such as Poliwrath, Roselia, Probopass, non Trick / Taunt Mr. Mime, Piloswine, Raichu, among others. It's also a great status absorber for balance / stall because of Magic Guard, and Psyshock ensures that it wins against other Calm Mind users. It does have a nasty Knock Off weakness, but most Knock Off users are beaten by Poliwrath (or other Fighting-types), and who makes teams without Poliwrath anyway? Tauros and Kecleon being banned means that it lost two checks too.

Golduck to B+. Not sure why this is B when the other good weather abusers are B+ or higher. Life Orb (or even Choice Specs which is pretty nice) rain-boosted Hydro Pump's just destroy 75% of the tier, while its great coverage hits almost all other Pokemon. Its speed is also high enough that no relevant Choice Scarf user can revenge kill it, and the most popular priority user just got banned. It's by far the best specially based rain sweeper, B+ seems like a good place for it.

Kingler to B. Although Kingler is not that bulky, not that fast, and has trouble getting past some bulky Grass-types and Poliwrath, it's actually pretty neat. I personally like double dance and Agility + 3 attacks the most, the former being hard walled by Poliwrath but the latter being capable of doing nice damage to even defensive Poliwrath with Life Orb-boosted Superpowers (36.1 - 42.9%). After an agility offense has a hard time stopping Kingler from sweeping, while Swords Dance makes Kingler a deadly wallbreaker. A rise to B only seems fair to me.

 

[HoennZach]

While I agree Dog and Ursaring should move up, Dog being A- like you said, and Urasring being B+, you are shooting WAY too high for Raticate. Firstly, it has a very hard time setting up Swords Dances, due to its bad bulk, and there are things that can live Raticate's Facade or Sucker Punch, thus meaning dead rat. Plus your calcs are misleading, Raticate should never run Adamant, as it needs the speed it has, and with Adamant, you are just revenged easier. Though I'll admit its decent on hazard stacking teams, thanks to Pawniard discouraging Defogs, maybe a move up to C+ or B- could be warranted.

You don't really need Jolly as much as you would think

What Jolly lets you outspeed compared to Adamant

322 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 0 [Speed Tie]
318 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +1
317 / Haunter, Leafeon, Sawsbuck / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0
316 / Haunter (Hidden Power Fighting) / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0
313 / Ursaring / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +1
311 / Leavanny / 92 / +Spe / 252 / 0
309 / Chatot / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 0
306 / Mr. Mime / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 0
304 / Torkoal / 20 / +Spe / 252 / +2
299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
298 / Rotom-F / 86 / +Spe / 252 / 0
295 / Articuno, Girafarig, Golduck, Misdreavus / 85 / +Spe / 252 / 0
294 / Misdreavus (Hidden Power Fighting) / 85 / +Spe / 252 / 0

Calcs for faster mons

252+ Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 462-544 (185.5 - 218.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Whirlipede Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raticate: 81-96 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Whirlipede: 369-435 (129.9 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 392-462 (169.6 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon: 166-196 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Jolly Beats this one)
252 Atk Life Orb Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raticate: 255-302 (101.5 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 266-313 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (More reliable with Jolly but with orb damage from prior switch ursa dies and if toxic orb isn't activated yet it dies to façade anyways)
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 252-297 (86.5 - 102%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 388-457 (132.4 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (This could be a problem if Sub Set)
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 297-350 (134.3 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (No one runs Mime w/o a scarf but it still dies)
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 197-232 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (If they run White Herb then your better off switching out)
+2 252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 209-247 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (if they are sub roost then your done)
252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Girafarig: 298-352 (106 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raticate: 146-172 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 316-374 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Raticate Crunch vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 316-374 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are some pokemon that beat you if your Adamant but I prefer Adamant for extra wallbreaking power and guarantees kills on walls. I agree though that the hardest thing about running rat is getting up an SD especially against offense. I do believe I overrated it when I made the post but in my honest opinion I think it should be B at least

Also I didn't put down the linoone calcs because it all depends on wether or not he gets BD up
Edit: You can also run Quick Attack to beat out the substitute attackers but I honestly prefer sucker punch to get a quick kill on haunter

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Kingler to B. Although Kingler is not that bulky, not that fast, and has trouble getting past some bulky Grass-types and Poliwrath, it's actually pretty neat. I personally like double dance and Agility + 3 attacks the most, the former being hard walled by Poliwrath but the latter being capable of doing nice damage to even defensive Poliwrath with Life Orb-boosted Superpowers (36.1 - 42.9%). After an agility offense has a hard time stopping Kingler from sweeping, while Swords Dance makes Kingler a deadly wallbreaker. A rise to B only seems fair to me.

SD Kingler beats Poliwrath if you run return>Superpower btw, which is a viable option just because of that.
+2 252+ Atk Kingler Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 181-214 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also going to tag my post on lure kingler from the FU tread, which I'll just add some calcs on Roselia and Tangela

So I've been messing around with a Kingler lure which does not loose against some socalled counters

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off¨
- Ice Beam
- Rock Slide / Superpower

and yes I wrote this down on the P-pad but nobody seems to use this.
X-scissor Is usally used to deal with Quilladin, but then you see that X-scissor only garanties the 2HKO on Quilladin if you're running Adamant band eith Rocks or jolly band with Rocks+1 layer of spikes. Ice beam on the other hand is almost a garantied 2HKO after SR

24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 138-164 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not only that but Knock off + Ice beam kills Gourgeist-L
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 169-200 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Finally it is great for booping Gabite and Fraxure,
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 286-338 (103.2 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 153-182 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

as for other bulky shit:
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 153-183 (44.4 - 53.1%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regigigas: 309-364 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Prinplup: 155-182 (46.8 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO (knock off first too win)
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 239-282 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 551-650 (143.8 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Zweilous: 302-356 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 161-190 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 346-408 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 179-213 (53.5 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (kills after knock off)

 

[MZ]

I got a few thoughts about the mons that have been coming up. First of all, Stoutland is a great mon, but it really doesn't deserve A-. It can wall break against teams lacking an Avalugg (and even those that do) very well and has good bulk for a wall breaker, but lacks priority and isn't overly fast. I've been using it quite extensively and the best moveset is probably frustration/pursuit or play rough/facade/Superpower. Crunch is a whopping 8 BP stronger than return and really doesn't have to be run, and while play rough is stronger by a decent margin you still 2hko throh and poli with a little damage or a spike up for poliwrath, so pursuit can be useful.

Don't drop Mr. Mime out of A rank. While it's not the most powerful mon, it still does sizable damage to most things that you'd want to rk (except for Jumpluff who takes under 50% zzz) and the value of healing wish is pretty underrated. It can also be running a few different moves in the last slot. Focus blast (or technician HP fighting) give Mime perfect neutral coverage for the tier, trick is just great for crippling random things, and baton pass is a fun way to steal momentum. It's not amazing without a scarf, but even life orb sets aren't total dead weight and can smash through stall after a nasty plot. A- fits it fine.

A few other mons that I like right now that could use some love: Zebstrika, LO 4 attacks simipour, CM Grumpig (stolen from scorp but it's really good), stunfisk, arbok

Love the B- Ariados and C+ Pikachu from August

 

[Magnemite]

Okay, minus the sprites for the August meta which will come soon, I finally finished the history of the viability rankings :o They took forever because I basically had to undo each and every change from the past few months, but they're done now. However, it went past the character limit, so I had to use a post 3 posts down to finish it. If Raiza. and Froggyboy would mind deleting their posts here and here, that would be helpful so there isn't a weird gap between the parts of it (you don't have to if you don't want to, of course).

 

[trc]

Duosion to B+. Probably somewhat controversial, but Duosion is really good. It sets up quite easily against common Pokemon such as Poliwrath, Roselia, Probopass, non Trick / Taunt Mr. Mime, Piloswine, Raichu, among others. It's also a great status absorber for balance / stall because of Magic Guard, and Psyshock ensures that it wins against other Calm Mind users. It does have a nasty Knock Off weakness, but most Knock Off users are beaten by Poliwrath (or other Fighting-types), and who makes teams without Poliwrath anyway? Tauros and Kecleon being banned means that it lost two checks too.

disagree with this. i've used duosion a fair amount on one of my tspikes teams from about a month ago and while it was definitely a good mon, it was very inconsistent. it can't setup against offensive teams so while its special attack is really high, it doesn't invest in it so you can only really end up suiciding while doing not enough damage to whatever is out. it's nice and physically bulky but its typing is more geared to take on special attackers so it can't really setup as much as it wants against balanced teams. defensive teams have a harder time with it but they're so weak to a large amount of the meta you might as well use another stallbreaker that works better against offense such as np mime, np ninetales, sd leafeon, etc. i have used it a lot and i don't think it's b+ worthy especially next to some of the other mons that reside in that rank.

 

[Grim]

disagree with this. i've used duosion a fair amount on one of my tspikes teams from about a month ago and while it was definitely a good mon, it was very inconsistent. it can't setup against offensive teams so while its special attack is really high, it doesn't invest in it so you can only really end up suiciding while doing not enough damage to whatever is out. it's nice and physically bulky but its typing is more geared to take on special attackers so it can't really setup as much as it wants against balanced teams. defensive teams have a harder time with it but they're so weak to a large amount of the meta you might as well use another stallbreaker that works better against offense such as np mime, np ninetales, sd leafeon, etc. i have used it a lot and i don't think it's b+ worthy especially next to some of the other mons that reside in that rank.

It sets up against enough offensive Pokemon, such as those mentioned in my post, to not be considered deadweight against offensive teams. I don't really agree with it just ending up suiciding. Duosion is not an early-game Pokemon that sets up and wins, it sets up late-game when its checks are gone. That might seem hard, but I find it to be surprisingly easy because of Duosion's good synergy with Roselia and because two of the three relevenant Dark-types (Sneasel, Mightyena, Pawniard) are easily worn down between Life Orb recoil as well as Stealth Rock damage in Sneasel's case. As for Ghost-types, non Nasty Plot Misdreavus can only Taunt it, Haunter is worn down pretty easily and cannot switch in safely, and Dusknoir and Dusclops are set up fodder. Its other weakness, Bug, is pretty much irrelevant as the only decent Bug-type is Ninjask which no one uses anyway (RIP VoltTurn). As long as it does not switch in Duosion sets up on a lot of special attackers anyway because it can often live a hit, Calm Mind up, Recover, and start casually boosting from there. Duosion's typing might be more geared to take on special attackers, but that really does not matter much since it's boosting with Calm Mind anyway. Other stallbreakers might be better against offense but they are also better prepared for, making them far less effective.

 

[g]

Okay, minus the sprites for the August meta which will come soon, I finally finished the history of the viability rankings :o They took forever because I basically had to undo each and every change from the past few months, but they're done now. However, it went past the character limit, so I had to use a post 3 posts down to finish it. If Raiza. and Froggyboy would mind deleting their posts here and here, that would be helpful so there isn't a weird gap between the parts of it (you don't have to if you don't want to, of course).

OK merged those with their closest posts :)

 

[Anty]

Regarding talk on normal types recently
Firstly, raticate is barely worth C rank so a- rank would is a disgrace. What people fail to realise is that this is basically a worse ursaring, as quick feet ursaring has similar power but much more speed, allowing it to beat pokes like simipour and ninetales, as well as much better coverage letting it actually hit rock and steel types unlike raticate (pls no revenge). In fact, the only niche raticate has is priority, which although is helpful, sucker punch can be stalled along with status damage and you still lose to rock and steel types. SD raticate sounds cool in theory but 55/60/70 bulk only gets you so far. Honestly c is generous.

Im not too sure about how i feel about stoutland, as in the tauros meta i felt it was defintely a- rank, but now im not so sure. Normal spam took a huge blow with the loss of tauros as now there isnt a broken threat that needs 1 counter removed to sweep, and quick feet urasing (the next best partner) has less troubles with missy. I really dont think the loss of tauros has given this any more viability, as QF urasring is a much better replacement as it has speed, which is a huge reason to use tauros. Stall looks a bit more viable in this meta as now you dont have to run missy on every stall team, which is just a ninetales bait, which stoutland 6-0s. I think it is too early in the meta to judge this. Dodrio could also be a cool partner, as stout baits in rock and steels :3

Ursaring has definitely gotten better, as quick feet sets (the better one) have a whole lot less competition. Tauros actually competed for this poke slot, as they both have a similar speed tier with the same typing (fast normal types) and the main appeal of urasring is beating ghosts. I doubt this will be as great as tauros, but from playing with this a bit i certainly feel that it could be the premier normal type of pu.


Throh to bl4 S-rank. There is no doubt that throh is a meta defining Pokemon in the PU tier thanks to its fantastic typing, bulk and movepool. No matter how you look at it, PU just doesnt have enough bulky fighting resists in the tier, meaning that throh has a very enjoyable time when switched in, and those pokes who do resist fighting can barely switch in due to possible coverage; knock off beats psychics and ghosts while crippling nfe's, ice punch hits flyings and torterra, and toxic fucks over pelipper. Restalk is also a huge pain for any balance team as it actually stalls out pokes like togetic and (non as) pelipper who are meant to counter it. Its bulk is just the 'cherry on top' as it allows throh to be a reliable switch into pokes like sneasel, it can even tank SE hits from pokes like mr mime (i learnt that the hard way ;_;).

 

[Magnemite]

Flareon from B+ to B and Rapidash from B to B+

Honestly, I really can't think of why you'd use Flareon over Rapidash in this metagame. The only reason Flareon was ever better was because it's a lot stronger, but that doesn't matter at all now since it's way too slow to be useful against offense and no one uses stall (Flareon doesn't really even beat stall anyway, it gets worn down really fast and is walled by Pelipper). Meanwhile, Rapidash has all of much better coverage, fantastic Speed instead of mediocre Speed, no reliance on Choice Band, recovery to heal off recoil damage so it doesn't die after like 3 turns of attacking, and the ability to check Ninetales really well. I could honestly even see Flareon in B-, there just really isn't much going for it in this metagame.

 

[Raiza]

Monferno from C+ to B-

After testing and playing with it a bit I came to the conclusion that Monferno is a really versatile pokemon and can run different sets, from the Offensive on Hyper Offense to a Defensive variant (which I often used) on Balanced and Stall teams having access to Slack Off, Taunt and Stealth Rock, still carrying a decent speed even without investments to outspeed most of the walls in the tier and an ok bulk with Eviolite and high base HP, making it a good choice as a Stealth Rock setter on defensive teams, especially stalls. I don't want to say it is a great Stealth Rock lead because Monferno probably loses every 1v1 against popular Rock-types in PU if running the defensive set so that's a bit underwhelming but still ok for a B- pokemon. Its typing ables Monferno to also check beautifully Dark Spam such as Sneasel and Mightyena, which is great even on Offensive teams that need backup.

 

[Grim]

Would like to add that Monferno is more or less a staple on stall because it's one of the few things that can take on Leafeon. The Fake Out + Grass Knot set also wrecks (I believe) all Rock leads. The regular suicide lead set also still gets up rocks against them, so it's not like it can't do its job. Ignore that if you meant the defensive set set with rocks.

 

[Raiza]

Would like to add that Monferno is more or less a staple on stall because it's one of the few things that can take on Leafeon. The Fake Out + Grass Knot set also wrecks (I believe) all Rock leads. The regular suicide lead set also still gets up rocks against them, so it's not like it can't do its job. Ignore that if you meant the defensive set set with rocks.

Yes I meant the defensive one, the set you mentioned its also good for the situation i talked about earlier in the other post though, I edited it though so it's more clear I was referring to the defensive variant.

 

[MZ]

Would like to add that Monferno is more or less a staple on stall because it's one of the few things that can take on Leafeon. The Fake Out + Grass Knot set also wrecks (I believe) all Rock leads. The regular suicide lead set also still gets up rocks against them, so it's not like it can't do its job. Ignore that if you meant the defensive set set with rocks.

Fake out + gk wrecks the other rocks leads, but otherwise it's pretty garbage. If you want a mon that beats every other lead, use delibird (not joking)

 

[Grim]

Fake out + gk wrecks the other rocks leads, but otherwise it's pretty garbage. If you want a mon that beats every other lead, use delibird (not joking)

Yes, it is indeed pretty garbage outside of the whole reason to use it. :S

I mean the standard Taunt lead set is better, but Fake Out + Grass Knot does what it's supposed to do: Counterlead Rock-type leads and set up Stealth Rock.

 

[MZ]

Yes, it is indeed pretty garbage outside of the whole reason to use it. :S

I mean the standard Taunt lead set is better, but Fake Out + Grass Knot does what it's supposed to do: Counterlead Rock-type leads and set up Stealth Rock.

If you want to beat other rocks leads, you already do that by running something faster with taunt. Meanwhile having your only attacking moves be fake out and grass knot (taunt is required) makes monferno fairly worthless, even for a suicide lead. At least Delibird can prevent hazards 100% of the time with Defog and kill most rocks leads with fake out+seed bomb (or aerial ace for monferno).

 

[Grim]

If you want to beat other rocks leads, you already do that by running something faster with taunt. Meanwhile having your only attacking moves be fake out and grass knot (taunt is required) makes monferno fairly worthless, even for a suicide lead. At least Delibird can prevent hazards 100% of the time with Defog and kill most rocks leads with fake out+seed bomb (or aerial ace for monferno).

Something faster with Taunt is just creating a 50/50 instead of straight up beating them. Fake Out, Overheat, Grass Knot, Stealth Rock is what I ran when I used it and it worked well enough. It was less consistent with keeping entry hazards away from my side of the field (there are some leads that are not beaten by those moves), but it did it's job and never dissappointed. Delibird also cannot lay Stealth Rock, the best hazard, which is quite a bummer. Defog is also eeh when you're trying to stack Spikes. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. The point is that Monferno is good and should move up.