Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[trc]

i'd argue frillish shoudn't even have been ranked when poliwrath WAS in the tier, it's such a worthless pokemon that offers virtually nothing but use as death fodder.

i have always liked purugly because it is fast, and speed is power. i never have understood arguments written by countless people that say purugly is outclassed by pawniard as a defog blocker. you don't use either of those pokemon's as defog blockers; they can't switch into swanna or pelipper or vibrava or whatever, they are used because of their offensive capabilities and only slightly provide a somewhat deterrent to using the move. yes, purugly's niche is fake out on toxic spikes teams, it is weird that that phrase is coming up a lot now yet not in the pawniard meta when it still had the same role, i built a toxic spikes team with purugly and duosion primarily to take advantage of purugly's main niche, and i believe i posted about that in an earlier vr iirc. i have always liked it ever since wdm destroyed me with it in august pu in one of my first games :'). it is not outclassed by stoutland and ursaring due to a variety of advantages over one or the other poke, from speed to fake out to knock off to sucker punch to taunt (not all can be used on the same set of course but it is a very customisable pokemon). if you want a good probopass lure use wake-up slap (it also lured bastiodon at the time but no one uses that). purugly is a good pokemon deserving of b rank, but it is not because of defiant.

 

[Raiza]

Golduck to A- maybe?
There's no denying that Golduck got better with Poli's departure, due to facing less competition as a Rain Dance sweeper. Also Croduck isn't Garage anymore. Still, it feels like A- may be too high for a somewhat niche pokemon that wouldn't be chosen on most teams over a faster special attacker like Ninetales or Simipour.

Golduck didn't got necessarily better from this tier shift, it's Rain as a whole that got better with the rise of Poliwrath, as the ones that took profit from it are mainly physical abusers. Facing less competition as a sweeper certainly doesn't make Golduck better, as there are still a few contenders, and with the hyping of Politoed, Golduck will still not find easy times sweeping, differently from a former A- abuser, Victreebel. It can struggle also against specially defensive Pelipper and Lapras, but the first is easily pressurable, while the second is also weak to Stealth Rock and takes kind of high damage from Focus Blast I guess, so it depends on the 4th moveslot choice.

Ninjask from B- to B
Ninjask didn't really get benefits from this last tier-shift, but I think it is still deserving a rise, also seeing how it got decently popular during PUPL(I also used it in my finals match against Montsegur, and it did fine tbh). Ninjask is an unique Pokemon in PU, thanks to being able to outspeed all the unboosted metagame by itself, with its really high base Speed of 160. This allows Ninjask to do wonders as both revengekiller and cleaner, if paired with a Choice Band to boost its damage output to decent levels. Ninjask's access to U-Turn also allows it to gain momentum for offensive teams, that are very threatening at the moment, while its typing still allows it to get clutch switches into Grass-types such as Roselia, bar Sludge Bomb, even if Stealth Rock weakness still sucks. Anyways, most Defog users have a decent synergy and are able to create U-Turn chains with Ninjask. Its Ground-type immunity can also be useful if used along with Electric-types to create VoltTurn chains. Its movepool might be kind of bad, but U-Turn along with Night Slash, Aerial Ace, and X-Scissor, provide to it enough tools to be effective on the offensive side, while it still has access to usable moves such as Giga Drain, which might be good seeing the popularity of Shell Smashers lately, and Final Gambit.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

Barbaracle from A+ to S
Barbaracle really benefited from the tier-shift. Its most common check, Poliwrath, is now gone. Barbaracle can set up on so many things due to its natural bulk, and go on to sweep. What makes it even more terrifying is that it can run Poison Jab, 2HKOing full Defense Tangela. In addition to natural bulk, Barbaracle can also have Memento or Screens support, which makes Barbaracle's job of setting up extremely easy.

Simipour from A+ to S
This one I am not completely sure about, but I feel like Simipour deserves it. It can destroy so many teams with Water-type spam now that Poliwrath is gone, and its coverage combined with its power makes it so you need a counter for it in every team. Although it does get checked by some things, it has good match up on the majority of the top ranked PU Pokemon. Of course things like Jumpluff and Roselia give it grief, but no Pokemon can be perfect. Simipour can use scarf pretty well, making it a good revenge killer / cleaner. I always see Simipour doing extremely well in any games I see, and I understand why.

Mightyena from B- to A-/A
The tier-shift was a blessing for Mightyena. Not only did it take away one of only two Fighting-types in PU, it also took away Mightyena's biggest competition, Pawniard. Although Mightyena is not perfect, and still needs some degree of support, it does really well in the tier right now. It has priority which is extremely important in PU, and it does make up for its lower speed a little. This means that it can possibly kill off a weakened Barbaracle and sweep with the Moxie boost. With Duosion rising in popularity, and for a good reason, it can check it really well. Mightyena's Attack stat is not jaw-dropping, but it can be quickly fixed with a Life Orb, especially with a +1.

Fraxure from A- to A
I feel like it borders A- and A. It does really well in the tier right now, especially with that new core that a lot of people are using (if anyone knows what I am talking about, please tell me. I forgot who was in the core). What I feel is really neat about Fraxure is its access to Taunt which makes it able to set up on so many things. Mold Breaker is also a decent ability to stop things from Toxic stalling with Sturdy or something like that. I still feel like Fraxure has some issues such as being pretty slow before boosting and being frail, meaning that it is easily killed by a strong attacker if it tries to set up. It is also outspeed by any viable Choice Scarf user at one DD.

 

[Magnemite]

Barbaracle from A+ to S
Stoutland from A+ to A
Carracosta from A to S
Floatzel from A to A+
Kadabra from A to A+
Ninetales from A to A-
Dodrio from A- to A
Mightyena from B+ to A-
Ninjask from B- to B
Metang from C to C+
Politoed from C- to B-
Frillish from D to unlisted
Krokorok from D to C-
Noctowl from D to C
Octillery from D to E

A lot of stuff shifted around in the A ranks but not by that much, just things getting slightly better or worse with metagame shifts.

 

[Choice Banned]

A --> A+
Tangela is pretty nice atm. Being able to check the mons that have arisen in popularity in the post-Poli (and the others but really, Poli leaving was the biggest change) is a godsend, and it's one of those mons that can just take most hits in general. Definitely an A+ mon in the current meta.

 

[Cheryl.]

I think it's time, now that PoliLord is gone, that this hidden gem, this monster of the sea, this pokemon, shall get ranked.

Carvahna for D rank

Carvahna @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVS: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Protect
- Waterfall
- Destiny Bond / Ice Fang
This is the lord known as Carvahna. With Speed Boost, it can boost his speed to very high levels in just a few turns, and it doesn't have to run a speed boosting nature because of that, so it can best use his 90 attack. With Life Orb, he's pretty powerful, securing 2HKOS on many pokemon like Roselia thinking they can switch in on it. Sadly, Carvahna has no bulk whatsoever, so it can't come in on ANYTHING, meaning it has to come in after a slow U-Turn or Volt Switch or when a teammate has fainted. It also has to Protect to get a safe Protect off, and it's weak to priority. But it has some utility in the form of Destiny Bond, which can be very useful as he dies to pretty much any attack, so he can take another life as well. However, if you want more coverage, you can use Ice Fang. The reason why it wasn't ranked before was mostly because of Poliwrath being everywhere, but now I think Carvahna has some potential in PU and should get ranked.

^ Reposting this for discussion.

I have another nomination to make...

Simipour for S rank
Not much really changed for Simipour during the shifts, other than POLIWRATH LEFT OH SNAP. This is good for Simipour, as Poliwrath was a reliable check to this thing. It also means my favorite Simipour set, the Sub NP set, is relevant in the meta again, now that Poliwrath is gone. The other rises didn't really faze it much, I guess Pawniard is gone so one less Sucker Punch revenger?! I dunno, but Simipour is really good right now. It's always been known as a threat thanks to it's high mixed stats and good 101 speed, and it has great coverage to help it break through stuff like Lickilicky or Grass types. It's pretty versatile, as it can run Life Orb, Choice Scarf, or the aforementioned Sub Nasty Plot set. Torrent can make it's already powerful Hydro Pump insanely powerful if Simipour is at low HP too. There are some problems keeping Simipour from being too overwhelming, like being outsped by the base 105 and higher speed tier if it's not holding a Scarf, and it's very frail as well. But Poliwrath leaving, and the rising of it's Sub NP set make Simipour imo, an S rank mon.

I also agree with Tangela to A+, I think it's been deserving of A+ for a long while, and now is the time for it to rise.

 

[MZ]

I think it ought to be fairly evident that Carvanha won't get ranked and Simipour is fine as is, but if it gets closer I might actually comment on those. I really don't like the tangela nomination though, if anything, it and Clefairy should drop after the shifts. Strong offensive waters have gotten increasingly common and they can all deal with it with ice beam, Kadabra is another Pokemon that's gotten better and ruins Tangela's life, both smashers can deal with it nicely (phys def tang loses to costa + takes a ton from barb so need to be at high health and is very mediocre now, offensive dies to both), and really the only major rises that Tang beats easily are Linoone (can still run gunk shit) and Fraxure, which has gotten better with setup sweeper spam but this isn't a massive boon for tangela (plus now poison jab doenst seem that bad on frax, although not as amazing as dual chop). Even stoutland's dropped a bit as its defenses and speed are giving it issues in this setup sweeper heavy meta which is part of what made tangela better. Grass has just gotten worse recently (except for rose, which is very good and shits all over tangela too) and I'd rather see tang fall then rise.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Machoke A- > A/A+

Here are my thoughts on Machoke. I have been playing for about 3 hours today in addition to many more hours in last couple of days and I have seen a Machoke on almost every team. This isn't a coincidence either. Machoke is ridiculously strong with a base 100 stab, very bulky because of eviolite and capable of surviving almost any one non-super effective hit, has coverage for days including elemental punches and knock off, and lastly it has priority with bullet punch (which is a must run for any set). The main set I has been seeing is the Max Hp/Atk No Guard set using Dynamic punch, Knock off, Bullet Punch, and Elemental Punch (Ice for rose/Thunder for Peli). However, there are variations that include the Guts Close Combat set for (Misdreavus's will-o/scald burns) and the bulk-up set for gourgeist. Machoke's versatility in its ability makes it scary to deal with and predicting the wrong set could mean losing your ghost and giving machoke a free 1.5x boost.

• Alright, let's begin with Machoke's most important niche as a counter lead, breaking piloswine and other rockers. So, your opponent leads with Piloswine and sets up rocks. Dynamic punch does 59.4%-70.2% on your average max hp/attk pilo, CC does 71.2-84.6%. Now your opponent has a decision, sack his rocker for some damage or switch out and get d-punched again and deal with that hax OR (if you're running CC) get BP'd and die as it does 16.3-19.3%. As with other rockers (Probo, Golem, Def Costa), nothing takes machoke on well except for Def stunfisk, which still loses its item or gets confused. This fact alone makes machoke A material, as rocks are crucial to any playstyle in PU.

• Next, Machoke has a good typing. The thing's that scare machoke out are sashed dabra, grumpig, dodrio/peli, clefairy, mime, Roselia, Jumpluff and sometimes Misdreavus. Now, you're probably thinking, that's a lot of things and you're right, but here is where machoke shines. Dabra and dodrio cant switch into machokes main stab d-punch, making them only revenge killers (which is a huge negative to these mons). Max Hp Grumpig takes 50.5-59.8% from a knock (leaving it crippled for the rest of the game), Def peli takes a whopping 68.1-80.4% from t-punch (after rocks, it's dead), Mime takes 41.6 - 49.3% from a knock off and BP finishes it, Def Misdreavus takes 39.5 - 46.9% from knock off, Def Clefairy takes 10.4 - 12.2% from a knock off but loses it's eviolite (crippling it), Max HpRoselia takes 61.1 - 72.3% from Ice punch, and offensive Jumpluff gets OHKO'd by ice punch or takes 34.3 - 40.5% from a d-punch. So with the exception of clefairy and kind've misdreavus, machoke can reliably cripple or do huge damage to most of its switch-ins provided that the player can predict the switch.

All in all, Machoke is one of the most solid additions to your team in this meta right now. Good for hax, good for power and bulk which is good for an offensive playstyle, and good for PU's main rocker, Piloswine. Machoke has strong stab and coverage, a versatile ability and moveset, and good typing. Vote Machoke for A/A+.

 

[Deussol]

Machoke A- > A/A+

Here are my thoughts on Machoke. I have been playing for about 3 hours today in addition to many more hours in last couple of days and I have seen a Machoke on almost every team. This isn't a coincidence either. Machoke is ridiculously strong with a base 100 stab, very bulky because of eviolite and capable of surviving almost any one non-super effective hit, has coverage for days including elemental punches and knock off, and lastly it has priority with bullet punch (which is a must run for any set). The main set I has been seeing is the Max Hp/Atk No Guard set using Dynamic punch, Knock off, Bullet Punch, and Elemental Punch (Ice for rose/Thunder for Peli). However, there are variations that include the Guts Close Combat set for (Misdreavus's will-o/scald burns) and the bulk-up set for gourgeist. Machoke's versatility in its ability makes it scary to deal with and predicting the wrong set could mean losing your ghost and giving machoke a free 1.5x boost.

• Alright, let's begin with Machoke's most important niche as a counter lead, breaking piloswine and other rockers. So, your opponent leads with Piloswine and sets up rocks. Dynamic punch does 59.4%-70.2% on your average max hp/attk pilo, CC does 71.2-84.6%. Now your opponent has a decision, sack his rocker for some damage or switch out and get d-punched again and deal with that hax OR (if you're running CC) get BP'd and die as it does 16.3-19.3%. As with other rockers (Probo, Golem, Def Costa), nothing takes machoke on well except for Def stunfisk, which still loses its item or gets confused. This fact alone makes machoke A material, as rocks are crucial to any playstyle in PU.

• Next, Machoke has a good typing. The thing's that scare machoke out are sashed dabra, grumpig, dodrio/peli, clefairy, mime, Roselia, Jumpluff and sometimes Misdreavus. Now, you're probably thinking, that's a lot of things and you're right, but here is where machoke shines. Dabra and dodrio cant switch into machokes main stab d-punch, making them only revenge killers (which is a huge negative to these mons). Max Hp Grumpig takes 50.5-59.8% from a knock (leaving it crippled for the rest of the game), Def peli takes a whopping 68.1-80.4% from t-punch (after rocks, it's dead), Mime takes 41.6 - 49.3% from a knock off and BP finishes it, Def Misdreavus takes 39.5 - 46.9% from knock off, Def Clefairy takes 10.4 - 12.2% from a knock off but loses it's eviolite (crippling it), Max HpRoselia takes 61.1 - 72.3% from Ice punch, and offensive Jumpluff gets OHKO'd by ice punch or takes 34.3 - 40.5% from a d-punch. So with the exception of clefairy and kind've misdreavus, machoke can reliably cripple or do huge damage to most of its switch-ins provided that the player can predict the switch.

All in all, Machoke is one of the most solid additions to your team in this meta right now. Good for hax, good for power and bulk which is good for an offensive playstyle, and good for PU's main rocker, Piloswine. Machoke has strong stab and coverage, a versatile ability and moveset, and good typing. Vote Machoke for A/A+.

Machoke is good, but I think you're overestimating the utility of dynamic punch.

taken from the ev spread thread

No Guard Dynamic Punch vs Probopass:
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 436-516 (143.4 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Healthy Machoke Close Combat vs Probopass:
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 520-616 (171 - 202.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Guts activated Close Combat vs Probopass:
252+ Atk Guts Machoke Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 780-924 (256.5 - 303.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

No Guard Dynamic Punch vs Lickilicky:
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Lickilicky: 308-366 (72.8 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Healthy Machoke Close Combat vs Lickilicky:
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Lickilicky: 372-440 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Guts activated Close Combat vs Lickilicky:
252+ Atk Guts Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Lickilicky: 558-656 (131.9 - 155%) -- guaranteed OHKO

No Guard Dynamic Punch vs Piloswine:
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Healthy Machoke Close Combat vs Piloswine:
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 288-342 (71.4 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Guts activated Close Combat vs Piloswine:
252+ Atk Guts Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 432-510 (107.1 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So guts cc can provide ohkos to your team that NG DP can't while also turning machoke into a missy switchin, which is pretty cool. Imo A-rank material. (Also removes confuse hax which is honestly the worst thing ever.)

 

[Crimzig]

B+ --> A-
Golduck is a very good wallbreaker and with rain up its ridiculously strong with its stab hydro pumps. The set i am nominating it for is Calm mind + 3 attacks which allows it to beat its checks and counters after a single boost (bulky waters and roselia) with psyshock. It does require a dedicated rain setter but volbeat is decent on standard teams that benefit from twave support. Shoutouts to Tect who helped with the set.

Replay of it in action --> http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-258858901

 

[Magnemite]

Leafeon from B+ to B
Monferno from B- to B
Metang from C+ to B-
Torkoal from C+ to C-
Drifblim from C to C-
Frogadier from C to C-
Girafarig from C to C-

I'll let Anty explain these since they're literally all his noms

 

[Anty]

Monferno from B- to B
Offensive sets are really cool right now as it really has no switch ins, as of the two resists to its dual STAB, peli gets KOd by thunder punch (and is a lot worse now) and grumpig hates physical attacks and uturn. Mach punch is also really nice priority rn as it really helps check barbaracle and costa as well as RKing weakened frail mons like dodrio.

Metang from C+ to B-
Metang has a decent matchup with a lot of top tier pokemon. It is an amazing psychic type check for mime, grumpig, and kadabra especcially with pursuit, it can also check all 3 s-rank mons.

Torkoal from C+ to C-
This is pretty mediocre now as it often finds it hard to get a spin of considering its own rock weakness, and poor special defense. The increase of water pokes really annoys it and it can barely check strong physical mons like dodrio and stoutland.

Frogadier from C to C-
Toxic spikes and stronger covergae isnt enough over simipour to justify c rank, especcially now with more people preparing for water types and roselia being everywhere

Girafarig from C to C-
Nastypass to mons like zebby and regice might be threatening, but girafarig struggles setting up, and after setting up its not like the abusers have auto wins unlike smashpass. Its just too unreliable to be worth running, considering you are running a team based mostly around it

Drifblim from C to C-
Drifblim is pretty mediocre as mono-flying sucks for physical sets, and special sets are still really weak (it does like 70 to stoutland w/ +2 hp fighting). This combined with things like its rock weakness and priority weakness make drifblim pretty mediocre as a sweeper/cleaner.

e: Leafeons drop was because offensive SD sets arent very threatening as tonnes of mons like dodrio and simipour can revenge kill, and SD pass also has limited options

 

[Magnemite]

I would have included this in the update but it involves S rank and isn't obvious so I decided just to post it afterwards instead:

Floatzel from A+ to S
Floatzel is a very metagame defining threat at the moment. Unlike Simipour, which is often outsped by multiple Pokemon on any given team, Floatzel only has two Pokemon and several scarfers that outspeed it. The only one of these that is particuarly common is Zebstrika, meaning that even checking Floatzel is difficult. Floatzel is also basically impossible to switch into. With prediction, the only common mons that aren't 2HKOed by Floatzel are Politoed, which is 2HKOed by HP Electric with hazards and can't OHKO Floatzel back, and Clefairy which hates Switcheroo. It can also just Baton Pass out of these mons if it predicts them switching in. Basically, Floatzel has little counterplay and manages to be metagame defining in a metagame with two broken Pokemon, so it's an easy candidate for S rank.

 

[Deej Dy]

Hey so I've been experimenting with Girafarig and other early bird mons recently (#Sunflora) and Idk about a drop quite yet. I've been having a lot of fun with this set

Girafarig @ Leftovers
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock/Shadow Ball/Filler
- Rest

As you see, unlike other rest/sleep talkers Girafarig has Early Bird allowing it to carry dual attacks while getting full recovery and only 2 turns of sleep (including the rest turn!). This is a very nice niche over other rest/sweepers. I thought it may give Giraffy a chance to up its usefulness.

This isn't a direct nomination, and I likely will comment more on the rank later and some replays or w/e, but it's a cool set.

 

[Anty]

Although i suggested floatzel to s, im not sure if I agree with it. Firstly magnemite was really overselling, especcially:

Basically, Floatzel has little counterplay and manages to be metagame defining in a metagame with two broken Pokemon, so it's an easy candidate for S rank.

Floatzel does have a decent amount of counterplay as we have a decent amount of water resists (along with most teams running something faster) and saying 'predict' doesn't mean it auto-beats them, and i would argue that floatzel is no more meta defining than things like zebby and less defining that jumpluff (memento is broken rn tho). Due to the sheer number of water resists, I am finding life orb slightly better than choice specs as although the power drop is more noticeable (for example you cannot 2HKO standard rose w/o a bit of chip), floatzel is harder to play around. LO also has the ability to run taunt which can cripple pokemon like clefairy, meaning it cannot switch in a second time after taking hydro + taunt.

The main issues i see with this nom is to do with people being more prepared for water spam, which makes floatzel much less of a 'click and kill' button, as well as offensive teams almost always running something faster. Obviously every pokemon has faster checks ton revenge kill, so this on its own shouldn't keep it out of s (especcially when scarfers can be a momentum loss), however the other point is pretty huge. Even if you predict correctly and hit the opponents politoed (max hp is never 2HKOd after rocks w/ specs), the opponent can then play around the hidden power and if they save politoed, it puts a lot of pressure on floatzel not to spam hydro pump later. Another thing to note is that floatzel can actually be quite underwhelming, looking at the politoed calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 146-174 (38 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And life orb:
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 127-151 (33 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Its definitely at least an a+ mon, as it is a decent revenge killer and a pain for offensive teams, but i just don't see it in the same rank as costa/barb, both of which are harder to check and can sweep through teams, whereas floatzel cant quite sweep due to it not being strong or fast enough, and finds it hard to wallbreak due to it being predict heavy.


Also that girafarig set seems fairly mediocre, since it has to be at high health to not get revenge killed by pokes like dodrio and stoutland, and it is also really weak without tons of boosts. Ofc it does have some good features, like setting up on rose, but its speed is pretty bad uninvested, and duosion just seems better due to more physical bulk (and even an option to run AA). Im not completely dismissing it, as if played right it might be able to get a couple kills, but it would be nice to see it in action

 

[ManOfMany]

Palpitoad to C-
This has been overdue for a while. Palpitoad is by no means a good pokemon- in fact it is entirely too passive for most teams. However, it does have a niche. Palpitoad is a counter to both Costa and Barbaracle due to water absorb and a resistance to rock moves. It also is a great switch-in to common pokemon like Rapidash, Raichu, and Arbok. It also annoys Floatzel. Palpitoad can reliably get up rocks in every game, and while it can't do much else, it still serves a solid role in teams needing both a rock setter and a mon that can counter the smashers.
Also the legendary HJAD has used it to good success and I trust him.

Marshtomp to C-
This is basically Palpitoad, except with much higher stats all-around. Marshtomp is a weaker check to Barb/Costa due to not having Water Absorb (though it still counters them), but its much better stats allow it to deal with pokemon like Raichu and Rapidash better. It also takes less damage from neutral hits like Stoutland's Return, and does more back with Earthquake off of 85 attack. Marshtomp simply acts as a very reliable but niche Stealth Rock setter, with a different set of resistances and weaknesses that can fit certain teams not wanting to use Piloswine/Stunfisk/Probopass.

 

[Magnemite]

Although i suggested floatzel to s, im not sure if I agree with it. Firstly magnemite was really overselling, especcially:

Floatzel does have a decent amount of counterplay as we have a decent amount of water resists (along with most teams running something faster) and saying 'predict' doesn't mean it auto-beats them, and i would argue that floatzel is no more meta defining than things like zebby and less defining that jumpluff (memento is broken rn tho). Due to the sheer number of water resists, I am finding life orb slightly better than choice specs as although the power drop is more noticeable (for example you cannot 2HKO standard rose w/o a bit of chip), floatzel is harder to play around. LO also has the ability to run taunt which can cripple pokemon like clefairy, meaning it cannot switch in a second time after taking hydro + taunt.

The main issues i see with this nom is to do with people being more prepared for water spam, which makes floatzel much less of a 'click and kill' button, as well as offensive teams almost always running something faster. Obviously every pokemon has faster checks ton revenge kill, so this on its own shouldn't keep it out of s (especcially when scarfers can be a momentum loss), however the other point is pretty huge. Even if you predict correctly and hit the opponents politoed (max hp is never 2HKOd after rocks w/ specs), the opponent can then play around the hidden power and if they save politoed, it puts a lot of pressure on floatzel not to spam hydro pump later. Another thing to note is that floatzel can actually be quite underwhelming, looking at the politoed calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 146-174 (38 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And life orb:
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 127-151 (33 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Its definitely at least an a+ mon, as it is a decent revenge killer and a pain for offensive teams, but i just don't see it in the same rank as costa/barb, both of which are harder to check and can sweep through teams, whereas floatzel cant quite sweep due to it not being strong or fast enough, and finds it hard to wallbreak due to it being predict heavy.

I agree that I oversold it, but I do still think it's worthy of S rank. One thing I didn't mention in my post is its versatility. While Specs is the best set, it can also run other sets such as Modest Scarf which is a good revenge killer that has Baton Pass and slightly higher power over Simipour. It also has the ability to run a physical set to lure and 2HKO Politoed, Roselia, and Clefairy easily, and while physical is obviously much worse than special it isn't horrible outside of being a lure either. The main reason I want it to go to S is that it forces teams to use one of very few switch-ins because everything else gets steamrolled by it. While other mons like Simipour do this too, Floatzel is the only one that does so while being faster than almost everything else and much harder to check offensively (this doesn't apply as much to zebby because Pilo and Stunfisk are so incredibly easy to slap onto teams, plus it's weaker and less versatile).

Also of course a non STAB 2x SE 60 BP move against one of the most specially bulky mons in the tier is going to be underwhelming lol

 

[Anty]

I agree that I oversold it, but I do still think it's worthy of S rank. One thing I didn't mention in my post is its versatility. While Specs is the best set, it can also run other sets such as Modest Scarf which is a good revenge killer that has Baton Pass and slightly higher power over Simipour. It also has the ability to run a physical set to lure and 2HKO Politoed, Roselia, and Clefairy easily, and while physical is obviously much worse than special it isn't horrible outside of being a lure either. The main reason I want it to go to S is that it forces teams to use one of very few switch-ins because everything else gets steamrolled by it. While other mons like Simipour do this too, Floatzel is the only one that does so while being faster than almost everything else and much harder to check offensively (this doesn't apply as much to zebby because Pilo and Stunfisk are so incredibly easy to slap onto teams, plus it's weaker and less versatile).

Also of course a non STAB 2x SE 60 BP move against one of the most specially bulky mons in the tier is going to be underwhelming lol

Its versatility really isnt too much. The main reason to use the scarf set is for surprise, and you might get a surprise KO against zebby or maybe a scarfer, and running physical sets just to lure those 3 mons isn't worth what you lose out by not running special. Also i dont get how this doesnt work with zebstrika, stunfisk is not as good as it was a month ago as its struggling to keep up with an offensive, water-heavy meta, whereas floatzel is beaten by rose, which is the best non-broken pokemon in the metagame (ik rose can check zebby, but less reliably). That calc was vs uninvest politoed, you have implied that it is an unreliable check in your other post.

Since there are no longer rank descriptions (for a good reason), a good way to see if it is s-rank is to compare it to other ones in s and a+. I know you are going to mention that two of the s-ranks are broken, but that still doesn't mean you can disregard this argument, as floatzel is noticeably worse than barbaracle, as barbaracle is much more threatening to offensive teams (which are the ones that should be most threatened by floatzel). If you don't think zebby is a fair comparison (even though it was for the wrong reasons), then how about simipour. Floatzel outspeeds 5 more relevant things, at the cost of relying more on prediction and being easier to wall and actual versatility. Overall S-rank is for the most defining pokemon, and I don't see floatzel being as defining as the other a+ rank mons. Teams also have to prepare for stuff like raichu, which has only one more offensive check (floatzel), and two counters (which it can run a move for and not alter the entire set)

 

[g]

I mean the argument that it forces you to pack a switch in is pretty much moot since you need to carry a water resist on your team anyway and nearly all water resists are solid Floatzel checks.

 

[MZ]

Oh yeah, Vic got banned. Let's drop Volbeat to b-/c+ because while it's the best at what it does, sun isn't broken anymore and a weather setter simply can't justify b rank with rain simply being ok and sun being somewhat bad now. Not much to say other than its main niche got nerfed so why is it still here?

Also move machoke under mightyena and mr mime in the rank order, idk why it's above those two at all, and I'd argue that Arbok>clef and maybe even machoke too but that's a little more gray area.

 

[Dundies]

Oh yeah, Vic got banned. Let's drop Volbeat to b-/c+ because while it's the best at what it does, sun isn't broken anymore and a weather setter simply can't justify b rank with rain simply being ok and sun being somewhat bad now. Not much to say other than its main niche got nerfed so why is it still here?

I don't see a problem with it staying in B- since it's still one of the best setters for rain, which is honestly pretty good right now.

I'd like to nominate Staryu for D rank because of its pretty solid and defined role as a naturally fast spinner (85 base speed) with access to recovery and status removal (Natural Cure). It can preform as both a speedy spinner with Max HP and Speed invested or a Bulky Spinner with Max HP and Defensive to easily tank Piloswine/Golem's EQ's while preventing their rocks.
Unlike most other hazard removers in the tier Staryu isn't weak to Stealth rock, but unlike its rival Wartortle it has both recovery and speed.
The Set I currently use is:

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Toxic

This set has enough speed to outspeed Adamant Pawniard, among other threats. You can add more Speed EV's to out-speed Taunt Misdreavus if you wish to get off a Toxic before it is able to Taunt.

--> D

This nom was basically ignored last time by most of the council, including myself, but after a ton of testing with this thing, I feel bringing Staryu up to D is necessary. Even though it is countered by the best spikes setter in the tier, Staryu actually takes on the majority of Stealth Rockers in the tier (Golem, Piloswine, Probopass, Solrock, Metang, etc) and it's able to spread status through burns from Scald and poison or paralysis through Toxic or Thunder Wave, respectively. Natural Cure is a godsend for spinners such as Staryu, as it is able to switch in and out of Toxic Spikes to spin with no problem. Reliable recovery in Recover is also very nice to allow Staryu to switch in multiple times, as even the best spinner in the tier doesn't have access to anything like this. Staryu has a sizable niche that easily allows it to fit into D, but I could possibly even argue it for C-.

--> A

I'm also nomming Misdreavus for A. Misdreavus is so nice for eating up hits, spreading burns, and preventing hazards, status, or w/e with Taunt. In a meta dominated by setup spam, Misdreavus fits perfectly as one of, if not the best Memento user in the tier. There's really not much to say here, but Misdreavus' has definitely gained a Spike in viability since the last tier shift and I think A is a good fit for it.

 

[Anty]

Mag told me to post @_@:
Dwebble from B to C (I might be too harsh but this thing sucks): This thing is incredibly underwhelming in this metagame. Leads are dying out because we have rockers that can guarantee setting up rocks while doing other things, and dwebble is mediocre as a lead. Its easy to 2HKO meaning that unless your opp sucks, it should only be getting up stealth rock. Golem is much better since it can get up rocks while also sucker punching/walling dodrio/etc.

Zweilous B to B-: This has fallen out of favour now the best two special attackers can KO it with ice beam, and the mons it does wall (like rapidash and zebstrika) are worse than they were before. The cb set is no more than B- either, as we have many slow, uncounterable wallbreaker (see beheeyem in b-) and zweilous is unreliable as one to the extent that fraxure is better.

Purugly B- to B: Purugly is pretty underrated atm, as not only does it fit amazingly well in spike stacking HO, which is one of the best playstyles, but it can also put in a lot of work even without defiant. LO fake outs hurt and can really put pressure on opposing teams, especcially vs offense when they dont want to switch their zebby/whatever out as it will take a lot of hazards. Fake out can even help stopping a sweeper late game, and uturn is quite nice for it as it can bait in rock/steels which water types can scare out and set up on.

Metang B- to B: Ik this recently rose, but it is amazing in this metagame due to its great typing backed up by nice bulk. Its one of the only mons that can convingly check all three s-rank mons, also has decent matchup vs others like jumpluff and stoutland, and can also coincidently pressure a lot of choice users (like dodrio/mr mime/sawsbuck) into clicking bp or a weaker move.

Mag also wants Politoed B- to B, which I agree with as it is a great check to simipour/floatzel along with many other special attackers. The main reason it didnt go up to B earlier was because B- was a preliminary placement after shifts, and now that the meta has settled, its safe to say that the waters are really good rn.

 

[Sugarbear]

I agree with most of this list, but there’s a few changes I’d suggest:
Sawsbuck: A- to A(+)
Since Torterra left, Sawsbuck is one of the best physical Grass types in PU. Swords Dance gives it great power, and its STABs are only resisted by Steel types (rare in PU) and Drifblim. Unlike Leafeon it can damage Steel types with Jump Kick, and Sap Sipper gives it 2 immunities thus granting it switch in opportunities despite meh bulk. Great late game sweeper.
Golem: B+ to A-
Great Stealth Rock lead, Custap Berry + Sturdy with Explosion means it’s all but guaranteed to keep those rocks up. It can also run a bulkier Stealth Rock set, a Choice Band set (STAB EdgeQuake is no joke) and an Autotomize sweeping set (at +2 it outruns max speed 123s with an Adamant nature). 2 X4 weaknesses hold it back.

 

[MaroGod]

Gourgist-XL to A-
One of the best physically bulky mons in the tier G-XL has a lot going for it. It is able to take on a majority of physical set-up sweepers main examples being Barbaracle,Fraxure and Linoone it is then able to cripple them with Will-o-Wisp or Hurt them severely with Foul Play (OHKO linoone after BD) it is also able to counter a lot of strong physical attackers such as Machoke,Leafeon,Purugly,Sawsbuck,Simisage. Finally it is also a great check to choice locked pokemon such as Ninjask and Dodrio. It is scared of Special-SE moves but teamed up with Licki,Hypno,Grumpig helps with this issue.

LickiLicky to B+
Licki has gotten a lot better able to counter special attackers like Floatzel,Simipour,Kadabra,Mr. Mime ect. Many playstyles appreciate Lickilickys ability to soak up Special damage and heal everyone up with wish. Its main set is Wish,Protect,Body Slam,Knock Off but it can also run support moves in Toxic or Heal Bell and has a variety of special/physical moves which can catch many people off guard.

 

[tmacbalanced]

I think Flareon could do nicely in C or C+ rank rather than C- rank. My reasoning for this is that I've tried this pokemon on a few teams & she did rather nicely on my sticky webs team, my memento team (wasn't the pokemon that was setting up), etc. This pokemon does rather really well in wall breaking & doesn't have too many switch-ins. I typically go 252+ in atk a lot just because I don't see the use in making her bulky or speedy. I also like using guts due to the fact that a 140BP move is nice for wall-breaking. Yeah she's a glass cannon but she does her job. You can even run baton pass on Flareon to gain some momentum, I've seen a few good players use this strategy rather well. She is good against like 90% of the bulky side of the meta. I just think people underestimate Flareon by a little bit, not by much though haha