Tournament PUWC VI Format Discussion

[Lambovino]

the main complaint i see about all-cg is how prominent team recycling is, which would be a valid complaint if reusing wasn't even more common in the oldgens; 3-4 people actively build those, and you won't find them on most teams

The comments on team recycling in CG are only there to point out that putting more SV slots will not guarantee greater tier development. And while it is true people in old gens are recycling too, the first step to get new people involved in those tiers is to attract those people first, and I believe PUWC is one of the tours where you can the most easily convince people who never played PU before to come and discover those tiers.

Also, I don't think full SV is more reasonable for "smaller regions", but rather it is better for regions that are more active in SV than old gens. You can't say that China or India have a low playerbase, they just have a low playerbase in old gens specifically. You just have to look at the last PUPL to see that China had a lot of top players in SV (metallica, 691, suzuka, cen), but none in old gens. It's the same for India, they had a crazy line up in LTWC, i'd say that they have a big playerbase right now in SV, but as this playerbase is quite recent, they are not very present in old gens.

Now, why would it be fair to give an advantage to teams that have a lot of SV players in general (and not necessarily PU) rather than to give an edge to teams that have been involved in the evolution of the PU tiers accross many years ?

I feel like it would be really sad to not give the stage to those who have worked hard in older generations and always wished to have the chance to represent their countries in the tier they spent the most time on, just because some other countries didn't make that effort.


PS : Also, as you pointed, the data you shown is a small sample size, i'm pretty sure full SV doesn't put everyone on the same page, if we do 10 more years of full SV you will 100% see the same countries coming again and again, and it will be those who have a lot of SV players.
I could play that dumb game of saying "China has more SV players than smaller countries in population like France, so why would it be fair to put only SV slots...." as people are doing for old gens, but I think PUWC isn't a tournament that has to be fair, it has to represent those who play PU, and so across all generations.

 

[ishtar]

Now, why would it be fair to give an advantage to teams that have a lot of SV players in general (and not necessarily PU) rather than to give an edge to teams that have been involved in the evolution of the PU tiers accross many years ?

I understand that the point of this question is to say that it is impossible not to give certain teams an edge with all CG, but I think that the simple implication that we should give one party or the other an edge over another is perfectly encapsulating of the issue people have with old gens. Sure, some players have a lot of really solid CG players that are excellent pilots and some teams will inherently be better than others due to this. The main difference is that the entry level to current gen is MUCH lower than the entry level to old gens. Any team that is already disadvantaged with less skilled SV players can easily pick up the tier in a very short amount of time. This is not even close to the entry level needed for most if not all of the old gens, where you sometimes don't even have 1 person to help you build or test or any place to actually play other people. Even if you have no CG experience in an full SV PUWC, the opportunity to make something out of your performance and your team's is much more feasible than otherwise.

I feel like it would be really sad to not give the stage to those who have worked hard in older generations and always wished to have the chance to represent their countries in the tier they spent the most time on, just because some other countries didn't make that effort.

As one of the people who have worked hard in older generations for years and enjoy them in every PU team tour that isn't PUWC, I simply cannot bring myself to enjoy signing up to a team where I am virtually the only player who knows old gens. As for the effort part, I already said that managers can't force anyone to play or enjoy the tier, and I can't really blame people for that considering how isolating old gens in these type of tournaments can be when you have little to no connections within the team if you're not from one of the more sizable regions. This is coming from someone who plays and knows them deeply too, I can't imagine what it's like to be thrown in as a noob with virtually no available help. I'm sure some would love the challenge, most would not and I get that.
Old gens have a chance to shine many times a year in different tournaments and they remind people of why they're so important to our community and our playerbase, but in PUWC, they seem to mainly be fun to a few teams that have the players and resources to make it happen in most slots.

 

[Tuthur]

Not really a PU main and havent signed up in PUWC in the past, but I've played a decent amount of WC in other formats. I believe Old Gens to be pretty lame in them, usually you dont have many mainers in these tournaments and having to figure out several metagames is just too much work for such a side tournament. WC is already a pretty unbalanced format and Old Gens inclusion just unbalances it even more as the knowledge gap is even bigger to overcome for underdog teams. It is much more enjoyable as a team to have everyone able to help in every channel than to have isolated islands where one or two people are left figuring out a non ladderable metagame.

Keep it full SV with this format:
4 SV PU + 4 Damp Rock SV PU

 

[yandaud]

IMO 4 SV + 4 old gens is the best because:

8 SV: we have a lot of SV tours already. Finding 8 players who are willing to build and play the same tier isn’t that easy.

5 SV + 3 old gens: looks the same as the 4 SV option except no BW. Fine but why do you hate BW

4 SV + 4 old gens: enough SV slots for tier development. Most teams would have SV mainers and non mainers that can learn by laddering or challenging testmates. Meanwhile, finding 1 player per old gen isn’t hard. It won’t be the same as PUPLs old gens, the pools are more restricted. But it’s fine for a WC, and this option is the best of both worlds.

« There is only one player in this team that plays this old gen »: Yes, you’ll probably be forced to play an old gen if you are the only one that can play it. IMO if there aren’t enough old gens players in some teams, it doesn’t mean we should modify the format to accommodate them. Instead, the team should aim to get better at old gens. In team France, there wasn’t always a mainer in old gens. But it’s fine, and if the opposing team has full mainers, it’s also fine. It means they had a stronger pool, so they deserve this advantage.

Also preferring weeks over pools.

 

[Platum]

I don't have anything to add over what's already been said, still felt the need to post to support not having all SV. We already have enough SV PU focused tours, diversity would be nice to have. Old gens being harder to learn is a fair argument so we could go for 5SV-1SS-1SM-1ORAS.

 

[Hera]

as someone who was very staunchly anti-moving over to all cg when this was first proposed a few years ago, i really think we should keep it all cg. imo it's just too integral to the tours identity atp to think about changing it. i love oldgens and would love to see more oldgens, especially ss, but most of them no longer need the support a third team tour would provide considering they get 2 pu team tours + pu classic + a slot in other oldgen team tours + occasionally the oldgen grand slams. also i feel like deciding which oldgens to chose is a bit arbitrary? like if we do 4 sv + 4 oldgens, any choice would just lead to accusations of bias and leave out tiers with solid playerbases, and if we go to 10 slots, then isn't this just pubd/pucl but again? personally i wouldn't be seriously opposed to a shift back to oldgens due to my personal leanings, but i think staying all cg is the right move.

 

[hex]

SVPU focused vs old gen focused doesn't really matter (or make sense cuz its not true..? all of our team tours have SV+Old gens), like I said in my OG post all cg is still ideal

Not every team can field a competitive old gen roster. All of our team tours have a good balance. PUWC is the exception to this balance because rosters are already decided via format. You can't really count individuals as contributing to having "enough svpu tours" because SV is just current gen so of course there is going to be a natural imbalance.

Also, I don't think full SV is more reasonable for "smaller regions", but rather it is better for regions that are more active in SV than old gens. You can't say that China or India have a low playerbase, they just have a low playerbase in old gens specifically.

And that also applies to more teams than just China or India. It's a lot easier to modernize a player and get them into SV than it is to go back in time when people aren't that knowledgeable while also expecting them to prep SV. It's just a lot of running around. There also isn't really a thing such as a region more active in SV. It's the most current gen, anyone can be "active" in it. It's much easier to form a cohesive bond within a team if they're all working together on one generation (SV) rather than again spreading a team thin between learning SV and also learning old-gens if they don't have someone who's self sufficient.

Also I think people underestimate the rate at which SCL will progress the tier, shifts were really big, and some of our drops are hotly debated (?) from what I've seen. So extra SV games to really push the tier helps. I'm not saying 5 SV games won't do that, but the retort that SCL is going on doesn't help because there's a barrier between SCL games from mind gaming vs michael and SVPU games from hex vs driplegend. The differences in game play and building aren't always adaptable to the generalized player base.

PS : Also, as you pointed, the data you shown is a small sample size, i'm pretty sure full SV doesn't put everyone on the same page,

Tbh it was multiple years of results that's not really small. Full SV objectively does put everyone on the same page when everyone is playing the same tier with the same resources with the same meta. It's much easier for teams to catch up in the current gen meta that's being played everywhere compared to what I said before about having to run around/be spread thin. How are old gens more fair if for example one team fields 9-1 avarice in BW vs a team who has to put someone who's not played the tier before in? or TPA/LpZ in BW and then they have to play some poor guy who's never played the tier. Or in SS the tier everyone complains about having to play against gum xcx. Old gens have a lot of competitive players I agree, but they don't have enough for every WC team to really fight back. When everyone is on the same page in SV it's much easier to help out players who are struggling or to pass them some cool new SV tech that will help them win their game. There's more I can say here but I am getting lazy atp so just tag me in cord if anyone wants to talk more.

Rambling atp and repeating myself, I don't really mind if the tour has old gens or not in it, but that is from the standpoint of my region(s) already having capable players in those old gens, so I can't really imagine how annoying it must be for teams without those old gen players

 

[DugZa]

Short post with just my opinion, not speaking for the other forum mods etc etc.

The number of teams should depend on the signups we get, and teams should be allocated such that everyone has a team they're eligible for; I really dislike how some World Cups just gatekeep certain regions out of the tournament completely. I don't think it has happened in PU in the past anyway, but I'm keen on making sure that does not happen this year either; worst case, people can play on RoW if they are not eligible for any other team.

Prefer pools over weeks; with the number of teams expanding to 16 last year and potentially more this year, weeks would require splitting the teams across two groups, which comes with its own issues. Pools have been a great success the last two years, so I see no reason to change.

I was initially indifferent and fine with either format, but the ishtar and @gum xcx (roflmao) posts (sadly) have been convincing to me on how all SV allows for more inclusion while leveling the playing field, even if not completely, but to a noteworthy extent, where every team has a fighting chance. As ishtar said, PUWC is also one of the few Lower Tier world cups that have been successful over the years, and the main differentiating factor over the last two years compared to the other tiers has been our all SV format.

 

[Lambovino]

Tbh it was multiple years of results that's not really small.

if by multiple years you mean 2 (of SV, which is what we're talking about) then sure

Full SV objectively does put everyone on the same page when everyone is playing the same tier with the same resources with the same meta

People are also playing the same tier with the same ressources with the same meta in old gens...
the only difference is that some people have more experience in those tiers, which is normal because they have been PU Players for longer, and they should be rewarded for this time invested in developing the tiers IMO

and also I never said full old gens is fair, it isn't, I only said that
1) full SV is not a perfect solution to fairness neither (because some countries WILL have more better players for sure, as they have more people in it), even if it is indeed more fair than old gens. I just don't like how it is brought as a miracle solution.
2) PUWC doesn't need to be fair imo, i'll gladly take a L against a team if the reason is they have more experienced players, because that's what should matter, and not just if a team has players that have enough time to adapt quickly enough to a new meta almost from scratch due to the shifts.

idk I find it so strange to read arguments that sounds like "they have too good players in these tiers so they shouldn't be allowed to use them!!", I'd much more prefer the challenge of trying to beat a legendary player such as LpZ in BW than just the challenge of finding the broken thing in a new tier before the others.

If the goal of PUWC is just to make everyone play a "new" tier to see who has the best 2-3 players with enough level and time to figure out the tier then sure let's do full SV, but if we want to build a history through the years, reward people for their investment, develop the older generations and make people face interesting challenges, as a world cup should do imo, adding old gens is better.

 

[violet river]

i don't think i read a single post where anyone goes "yea the problem is they have lpz in bw and we are too scared!!"

 

[Lambovino]

this one feels like it, they are asking to not let BW be playable because some players like LpZ are too strong in it, and it was the post I was answering to :

How are old gens more fair if for example one team fields 9-1 avarice in BW vs a team who has to put someone who's not played the tier before in? or TPA/LpZ in BW and then they have to play some poor guy who's never played the tier.

 

[violet river]

i would feel like the emphasis in that post is more on the team that Does Not Have A Player but maybe that's just me

 

[DD Joe]

if by multiple years you mean 2 (of SV, which is what we're talking about) then sure


People are also playing the same tier with the same ressources with the same meta in old gens...
the only difference is that some people have more experience in those tiers, which is normal because they have been PU Players for longer, and they should be rewarded for this time invested in developing the tiers IMO

and also I never said full old gens is fair, it isn't, I only said that
1) full SV is not a perfect solution to fairness neither (because some countries WILL have more better players for sure, as they have more people in it), even if it is indeed more fair than old gens. I just don't like how it is brought as a miracle solution.
2) PUWC doesn't need to be fair imo, i'll gladly take a L against a team if the reason is they have more experienced players, because that's what should matter, and not just if a team has players that have enough time to adapt quickly enough to a new meta almost from scratch due to the shifts.

idk I find it so strange to read arguments that sounds like "they have too good players in these tiers so they shouldn't be allowed to use them!!", I'd much more prefer the challenge of trying to beat a legendary player such as LpZ in BW than just the challenge of finding the broken thing in a new tier before the others.

If the goal of PUWC is just to make everyone play a "new" tier to see who has the best 2-3 players with enough level and time to figure out the tier then sure let's do full SV, but if we want to build a history through the years, reward people for their investment, develop the older generations and make people face interesting challenges, as a world cup should do imo, adding old gens is better.

I agree. I think the argument that everyone should be on a level playing field and 'we should all work out this meta together' doesn't reward players who LOVE Pu and have been playing it for years and years and also shouldnt necessarily matter. May the best team win.

I think smaller regions can still find someone to fill that slot, they might not be as experienced but that can lead to fun and crazy matchups and more excitement for the tour. There are also a tonne of players who would rather play the old gens for a fresher experience rather than SV.

There will never be true parity in a structure as lopsided as a World Cup. 4/5 SV is plenty inclusive enough imo. 5 teams of SV a week will attract many players and give them good chances even with old gens involved. With this many SV slots, the meta will also see fine development.

There are many, many players who love old gens and to give them another chance to get more exposure to their dying tier I think is important for longevity and improving resources for those tiers. We could get a tonne more original teams and resources for newer players to enjoy PUs legacy tiers.

I think all SV truly would be a wasted opportunity for what could be a special and very formative tour.