im just waiting for cresselia and regice to gtfo this tier... basically 2 annoying walls that everyones using
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Rarely Used (RU) Tier
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
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I just want to say that this is pretty much the best thing I've ever read ever.
If and when we do make a banlist I am fully supporting calling it the RUB.
BL is a banlist for UU now. Not really a tier.
Yes,that's what i mean.Why don't we make BL a tier and we have to make a new one?
Edit: Every tier is a banlist of the higher tier.OU is a banlist for UU,UU is a banlist for NU etc,so what you said doesn't really make sense.
OU Pokemon haven't been banned from UU per se. They're not allowed in UU because they are OU by their usage. You'll be able to see this in action as some OU things drop down to UU by their usage. Sometimes they end up broken in UU and get banned to BL, but other times they fit nicely into the tier.
On the other hand, BL Pokemon do not get used enough to be OU (an important distinction) but are deemed broken in UU and, thus, are removed to BL. Being BL effectively means a Pokemon is part of the OU metagame, but for people planning their teams, it's useful to know which Pokemon are common in the tier and which exist there because they've been banned from lower tiers.
Understanding the definition of what BL is should make it clear why it's not a playable tier. There's also the practical issue of there hardly being any mons there. I mean, if we made BL a tier, it would just be UU plus all the things we banned from UU for being broken... thereby defeating the purpose of BL. Get it yet?
I will be running an Unaware Quagsire and/or a Clear Smog user because of Speed Boost Sharpedo/Yanmega and Quiverpass/Smashpass users. Its just ridiculous.
I will also run a Magic Coat user like Grumpig, because he can learn both Taunt and Magic Coat, (the attack form of Magic Bounce) until Magic Bounce Alakazam is released to deal with pokemon like Venomoth who try to Powder before passing.
I suggest something similar to everyone else that doesn't want to get destroyed by Passers.
I will also run a Magic Coat user like Grumpig, because he can learn both Taunt and Magic Coat, (the attack form of Magic Bounce) until Magic Bounce Alakazam is released to deal with pokemon like Venomoth who try to Powder before passing.
I suggest something similar to everyone else that doesn't want to get destroyed by Passers.
ok let's make this clear.if we make borderline a tier,it will not become the tier between UU and OU just like now.it should be like what is UU now.the only difference would be that UU will be like RU and BL like UU as the tiers are at the moment.
Not to mention that borderline as it is now,is not useful at all and i am going to explain this.Garchomp in 4th generation was way too broken for OU but too weak for Ubers.What should happen to this pokemon?It was a uber during generation 4.Following this logic,why bordeline exists and all its pokemon are not OU?
Not to mention that borderline as it is now,is not useful at all and i am going to explain this.Garchomp in 4th generation was way too broken for OU but too weak for Ubers.What should happen to this pokemon?It was a uber during generation 4.Following this logic,why bordeline exists and all its pokemon are not OU?
Standard Venomoth's go for Sleep Powder before attempting to quiver dance generally which Magic Guard reflects, just like the move version of that ability which Alakazam gets in HGSS.
I have a feeling that the same moves that were tutored in HGSS will be available in either Gray or the Hoenn remakes this generation.
Now that I've played in this tier, I'd say that Cofagrigus and Cresselia are the big defensive core to beat in RU even though their types don't really compliment each other that well. Dark types/Taunt/Phazers are a necessity just to stop these two from stalling you to hell and back.
Also, Trick Room is pretty effective here because of the many Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, and Speed Boost users. Good thing too, I love trolling fast sweepers with Trick Room >:]
Also, Trick Room is pretty effective here because of the many Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, and Speed Boost users. Good thing too, I love trolling fast sweepers with Trick Room >:]
There is a huge reason we have ban lists, and then tiers. Ban lists are needed to differentiate between what pokemon are just used a lot in a certain tier, and those just banned. Without it, in 4th gen, you might of had to allow Tentacruel in UU or Flygon in UU. Heck a lot a OU borderline pokemon would immediately drop to UU, for not being broken in any way there. Simply put, that’s not what UU players, or RU players, want here.
Borderlines only purpose is to serve as a place where the Pokemon that are broken in UU are sent. Borderline is a place where Pokemon are banned because they are broken, not because of statistics
Magic Guard =/= Magic Coat. Magic Guard makes you immune to all passive damage (burn damage, toxic damage, life orb recoil, entry hazards, etc). Magic Bounce is the ability you're thinking of, which is exclusive to Natu/Xatu/Espeon.
o_0
It let me use one on the ladder yesterday...
I mean, you're right, it's on the banlist.
But then, idk what was going on yesterday...
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I'm sorry to say, chroistos21, that BL really can't be a playable tier. If it was, there wouldn't be enough Pokemon to use, and we'd have to basically make UU teams with BL 'mons. But the BL 'mons are broken in a UU metagame. See the problem? Someone else said this as well.
Besides, OU 'mons could become UU if people stopped using them, whereas BL 'mons can't be UU. Ever. They're banned for being broken. So no, OU isn't the same as a UU banlist, while BL is just a UU banlist.
Yeah,what can i say now...
I'm just a stupid man who cannot understand why the hell pokemon that are too weak for OU but too powerfull for UU,don't become OU but they have to be in a tier where they do absolutely nothing.Something that shows how stupid BL is as an idea is the fact that BL pokemon are not allowed in UU but are allowed in OU:in other words they're just the weakest OU but they are called borderline.OU tier is a banlist of UU,UU a banlist of NU so there is no reason to add a new banlist to UU.
P.S : As i can see most of you do not want to understand what am i saying about the new tier for obvious reasons( that i wouldn't like to analyse atm )
P.S.1 : Please stop trying to convince me that BL is useful now.That's my opinion.If you don't like it DO not read my post.
P.S.2 : I am going to bed now so i will not be able to answer to any of your posts for the next hours(its 01:00 here in Greece).
I'm just a stupid man who cannot understand why the hell pokemon that are too weak for OU but too powerfull for UU,don't become OU but they have to be in a tier where they do absolutely nothing.Something that shows how stupid BL is as an idea is the fact that BL pokemon are not allowed in UU but are allowed in OU:in other words they're just the weakest OU but they are called borderline.OU tier is a banlist of UU,UU a banlist of NU so there is no reason to add a new banlist to UU.
P.S : As i can see most of you do not want to understand what am i saying about the new tier for obvious reasons( that i wouldn't like to analyse atm )
P.S.1 : Please stop trying to convince me that BL is useful now.That's my opinion.If you don't like it DO not read my post.
P.S.2 : I am going to bed now so i will not be able to answer to any of your posts for the next hours(its 01:00 here in Greece).
The reason they can't be OU is because OU is solely based on usage. If they a Pokemon doesn't get used enough, it can't be OU. Only Pokemon who get used enough be OU. Doing it any other way would throw off usage statistics for tier-making and it would make the Pokemon look good enough when they really aren't.
OU is not a banlist of UU. UU is not a banlist of NU/RU. Pokemon get used too much to be in the lower tiers, but they might not be broken down there. Pokemon in OU might go down to UU or RU someday.
But with a banlist, you can never go back down, because you actually got banned. When a Pokemon is broken in UU, it gets sent to BL; therefore BL is a banlist for UU, not OU.
1)As I can see, you do not want to understand what I am saying about the current tier for obvious reasons.christos21 said:
2) Please stop trying to convince us that BL is useless now. That's your opinion. If you don't like our opinion, then do not read our posts.
3)Greece is a cool country.
Sure you can see it like that, that doesn't mean you have gotten rid of its basic function. That fact is you can not make a tier, that acts like a ban list, for pure brokenness. That just not how it works, tiers on smogon are determined for useage too, hence the "used" after every tier. I suppose you could theoretically make a ban list and tier all in one, using both aspects. But you run into a few technical issues. For example, if you did make OU both, lets say you wanted to allow Kyurem back in UU, perhaps then you should also allow Machamp in UU. With the list just there itself, there would be no purely logical reason not to allow it in UU, and thus your dual ban list starts to fall apart. These technical reasons are why the ban lists exists in the first place. While playing, yes they are useless, but for the people organizing the tiers, they are vastly important for there system to work.
Okay look: The idea behind usage based tiers is that we want to make as many pokemon as possible usable. If your favorite pokemon is donphan, you probably won't have much success using it in ou, for example. That's why uu exists, so that we get to use all of the pokemon in the game, and have some success in doing so.
The idea behind the banlists is that in order for a tier to be fun/balanced/whatever you want to call it, you need to have some mechanism for removing problem pokemon. In 4th gen uu, people thought that staraptor was too much, and dominated the metagame. UU would be a better tier if staraptor wasn't in it, and more pokemon would become competitively viable. So it needed to be banned from uu. Just because it was banned from UU doesn't make it OU, because OU has a strict definition based on usage in OU ladder battles. If staraptor was used less than 300 other pokemon on the OU ladder, that would not have made a wit of difference in its banning from UU.
BL is only a name for the pokemon that are banned from UU based on power. These pokemon cannot just be added to OU, because OU has a very specific definition. BL is not a tier that is playable, it is an artifact designed solely to make UU more playable/fun.
Every tier needs a power-based banlist under this philosophy. OU has ubers, UU has BL. RU will need its own power-based banlist at some point. The fact that people play ubers is entirely irrelevant, as far as smogon's philosophy is concerned, they are just messing around in an unbalanced (but fun) metagame.
So, usage based tiers are to make it possible for more pokemon to be used. Power based ban lists are to make those tiers "better". They are very different. Asking BL to be made into a playable metagame goes against its very definition, and entirely misses the point.
Edit: Conversations like these are why I thought the PR thread on changing the tier names was more relevant than the posters there thought it was. There's no reason we can't have the traditional names and a more orderly naming system as well, just have official names and nick names.
Ban List 1 "Ubers" -> Tier 1 "OverUsed"
Ban List 2 "BorderLine" -> Tier 2 "UnderUsed"
Ban list 3 "On the edge/whatever" -> Tier 3 "RarelyUsed"
Ban list 4 "Teetering on the Edge/whatever" -> Tier 4 "NeverUsed"
The idea behind the banlists is that in order for a tier to be fun/balanced/whatever you want to call it, you need to have some mechanism for removing problem pokemon. In 4th gen uu, people thought that staraptor was too much, and dominated the metagame. UU would be a better tier if staraptor wasn't in it, and more pokemon would become competitively viable. So it needed to be banned from uu. Just because it was banned from UU doesn't make it OU, because OU has a strict definition based on usage in OU ladder battles. If staraptor was used less than 300 other pokemon on the OU ladder, that would not have made a wit of difference in its banning from UU.
BL is only a name for the pokemon that are banned from UU based on power. These pokemon cannot just be added to OU, because OU has a very specific definition. BL is not a tier that is playable, it is an artifact designed solely to make UU more playable/fun.
Every tier needs a power-based banlist under this philosophy. OU has ubers, UU has BL. RU will need its own power-based banlist at some point. The fact that people play ubers is entirely irrelevant, as far as smogon's philosophy is concerned, they are just messing around in an unbalanced (but fun) metagame.
So, usage based tiers are to make it possible for more pokemon to be used. Power based ban lists are to make those tiers "better". They are very different. Asking BL to be made into a playable metagame goes against its very definition, and entirely misses the point.
Edit: Conversations like these are why I thought the PR thread on changing the tier names was more relevant than the posters there thought it was. There's no reason we can't have the traditional names and a more orderly naming system as well, just have official names and nick names.
Ban List 1 "Ubers" -> Tier 1 "OverUsed"
Ban List 2 "BorderLine" -> Tier 2 "UnderUsed"
Ban list 3 "On the edge/whatever" -> Tier 3 "RarelyUsed"
Ban list 4 "Teetering on the Edge/whatever" -> Tier 4 "NeverUsed"
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