I don't think a fire blast offensive mom would want to run Haze unless it has a SEVERE 4mss, right? Like, yeah accidentally burning a Chansey is terrible but we feel like you'd prefer running physical coverage vs Chansey rather than Haze, no'?
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Pet Mod RBY CAP (CAP 3 - Competitive Learnset)
- Thread starter DuoM2
- Start date
I don't think a fire blast offensive mom would want to run Haze unless it has a SEVERE 4mss, right? Like, yeah accidentally burning a Chansey is terrible but we feel like you'd prefer running physical coverage vs Chansey rather than Haze, no'?
Normal/Ground
Haze's targets were already mentioned above: Starmie, Chansey, Alakazam, Snorlax and Slowbro.
This is a weird mon. I share the sentiment that it should get access to a freezing move (after all, the status you most want to replace paralysis with is freeze). However, Blizzard is generally potent enough that it honestly doesn't need STAB. I know that moves are poll jumping right now though, but the part of the concept with regards to status shuffling generally requires a freeze move.
The other issue I have is that Haze's targets all want to paralysis themselves (TWave Zam/Mie/Chans/Bro and BSlam Lax), and so this mon needs a way to deal with that. Normal/Ground covers all options here, and generally makes a pretty consistent Pokemon here.
This would likely be a very thin line to balance on, as a para-immune mon with access to a freeze move is quite a loaded concept. The blizzard weakness should be part of what balances it, giving it a weaker matchup against Starmie, Slowbro and Tauros, as well as CAP1, Articuno, Cloyster and Lapras, but it should have pretty good matchups against Zam, Chansey and Snorlax. Given that it isn't a Normal resist, it also won't completely usurp Rhydon's role in the meta.
Haze's targets were already mentioned above: Starmie, Chansey, Alakazam, Snorlax and Slowbro.
This is a weird mon. I share the sentiment that it should get access to a freezing move (after all, the status you most want to replace paralysis with is freeze). However, Blizzard is generally potent enough that it honestly doesn't need STAB. I know that moves are poll jumping right now though, but the part of the concept with regards to status shuffling generally requires a freeze move.
The other issue I have is that Haze's targets all want to paralysis themselves (TWave Zam/Mie/Chans/Bro and BSlam Lax), and so this mon needs a way to deal with that. Normal/Ground covers all options here, and generally makes a pretty consistent Pokemon here.
This would likely be a very thin line to balance on, as a para-immune mon with access to a freeze move is quite a loaded concept. The blizzard weakness should be part of what balances it, giving it a weaker matchup against Starmie, Slowbro and Tauros, as well as CAP1, Articuno, Cloyster and Lapras, but it should have pretty good matchups against Zam, Chansey and Snorlax. Given that it isn't a Normal resist, it also won't completely usurp Rhydon's role in the meta.
burning chansey isnt necessarily that bad tbh. it opens up cloyster, for example.
the more interesting aspect might be using haze to protect from a fire spin miss, in other words if spin misses and u get crippled by twave, u can haze to reset speed, and regain ability to attack first and potentially pivot. of course, agility does that too but haze has the additional features (which are usually negative features)
Ground/Water
I've discussed this typing in the RBY Discord Server, and this seems like a good option. Idea is that this mon is a sleeper (likely using lovely kiss) that can use haze to prevent sleepblocking with paralyzed Pokemon. A ground typing allows for a twave immunity, but unfortunately gives CAP3 a weakness to Water and Ice, which we don't want. We want CAP3 to haze mons like Chansey and Slowbro, so making it weak to surfs and ice beams seems counter-intuitive. A ground/water typing also makes CAP3 4x weak to grass. This would provide it with a unique interaction with the two previous CAPs, both of which have razor leaf. CAP3 will be 4x weak to these moves, which improves both these CAPs' viability. I'm going to cover the three main purposes CAP has, and how it'll function in battle. These three purposes are: sleep, reflect, and boosting
Sleep:
CAP3 is a sleeper, and haze synergizes well with sleep. Haze can remove paralysis from something like Chansey, Alakazam, or Starmie, then sleep it on the next turn. None of the aforementioned pokemon's moves can hit CAP3 super effectively, and CAP is immune to twave, making it a great check to all three.
Reflect: Haze removes reflect, which is great against reflect lax. Stats should be calced so EQ 3hkos lax (or at least has a chance to 3hko) meaning CAP3 has a good Snorlax matchup. Haze can also remove reflect from chansey, but this is a double-edged sword, since reflect chansey doesn't like paralysis, meaning you can accidentally remove paralysis from Chansey.
Boosting: Great against Slowbro since it removes Amnesia. It sadly can't do much against things like SD Victreebel. If future CAPs become swords dancers, CAP3 will likely be able to check them as well, unless they're grass types.
I've discussed this typing in the RBY Discord Server, and this seems like a good option. Idea is that this mon is a sleeper (likely using lovely kiss) that can use haze to prevent sleepblocking with paralyzed Pokemon. A ground typing allows for a twave immunity, but unfortunately gives CAP3 a weakness to Water and Ice, which we don't want. We want CAP3 to haze mons like Chansey and Slowbro, so making it weak to surfs and ice beams seems counter-intuitive. A ground/water typing also makes CAP3 4x weak to grass. This would provide it with a unique interaction with the two previous CAPs, both of which have razor leaf. CAP3 will be 4x weak to these moves, which improves both these CAPs' viability. I'm going to cover the three main purposes CAP has, and how it'll function in battle. These three purposes are: sleep, reflect, and boosting
Sleep:
CAP3 is a sleeper, and haze synergizes well with sleep. Haze can remove paralysis from something like Chansey, Alakazam, or Starmie, then sleep it on the next turn. None of the aforementioned pokemon's moves can hit CAP3 super effectively, and CAP is immune to twave, making it a great check to all three.
Reflect: Haze removes reflect, which is great against reflect lax. Stats should be calced so EQ 3hkos lax (or at least has a chance to 3hko) meaning CAP3 has a good Snorlax matchup. Haze can also remove reflect from chansey, but this is a double-edged sword, since reflect chansey doesn't like paralysis, meaning you can accidentally remove paralysis from Chansey.
Boosting: Great against Slowbro since it removes Amnesia. It sadly can't do much against things like SD Victreebel. If future CAPs become swords dancers, CAP3 will likely be able to check them as well, unless they're grass types.
Ice/Rock
Water/Ground
Normal/Ground
Water/Ground
Normal/Ground
Water/Ground this was discussed a bit on discord, theres maybe some concern about how much this mon would actually click haze, but itd probably run it even if it doesnt get clicked much.
overall, the twave immunity would let it switch into and haze slowbro pretty well, and haze also is useful for breaking thru reflect lax. ofc haze is never a risk-free move to click and requires prediction.
seems like it wont be to hard to balance as a mon. given the difficulty of the concept (haze), i feel decently good about this option
Fire/Ghost yea idk exactly how this would work but feels a lil more feasible than the next two. haze to enable fire spin pivot is funny, idk if its viable tho. haze to remove undesirable fblast burns is even weirder. idk
Ice/Rock i think hazing just to freeze fish is too passive, rby ou is a lil slow paced but not that slow lol. the rock typing is interesting but porygon already exists as a snorlax wall with ice beam, ofc pory isnt freeze immune. idk maybe j hard for me to envision it
Normal/Ground these are the best offensive typings in the metagame, on top of being immune to all para, maybe haze could be useful just for removing lax’s reflect again but being weak to ice and presumably needing lower stats to keep it balanced, spending turns hazing instead of clicking its stab moves seems very not worth it.
the submission which suggested hazing special walls but they are threatened by stab eq / hbeam. unless this is going to have like a chansey-like attack stat in which case what is it for, is it like a alternate/worse chansey that is ice weak but twave immune. im not sure but also maybe im j scared of creating a normal/ground in rby.
this cap concept is very hard :(
overall, the twave immunity would let it switch into and haze slowbro pretty well, and haze also is useful for breaking thru reflect lax. ofc haze is never a risk-free move to click and requires prediction.
seems like it wont be to hard to balance as a mon. given the difficulty of the concept (haze), i feel decently good about this option
Fire/Ghost yea idk exactly how this would work but feels a lil more feasible than the next two. haze to enable fire spin pivot is funny, idk if its viable tho. haze to remove undesirable fblast burns is even weirder. idk
Ice/Rock i think hazing just to freeze fish is too passive, rby ou is a lil slow paced but not that slow lol. the rock typing is interesting but porygon already exists as a snorlax wall with ice beam, ofc pory isnt freeze immune. idk maybe j hard for me to envision it
Normal/Ground these are the best offensive typings in the metagame, on top of being immune to all para, maybe haze could be useful just for removing lax’s reflect again but being weak to ice and presumably needing lower stats to keep it balanced, spending turns hazing instead of clicking its stab moves seems very not worth it.
the submission which suggested hazing special walls but they are threatened by stab eq / hbeam. unless this is going to have like a chansey-like attack stat in which case what is it for, is it like a alternate/worse chansey that is ice weak but twave immune. im not sure but also maybe im j scared of creating a normal/ground in rby.
this cap concept is very hard :(
Ice/Rock
Normal/Ground
Fire/Ghost
Water/Ground
Water/Ghost
Ice/Rock just feels so perfect for this concept, but honestly all of them could work if built the right way.
Normal/Ground
Fire/Ghost
Water/Ground
Water/Ghost
Ice/Rock just feels so perfect for this concept, but honestly all of them could work if built the right way.
Ice/Rock
Water/Ground
Fire/Ghost
Water/Ghost
Normal/Ground
Water/Ground
Fire/Ghost
Water/Ghost
Normal/Ground
Water/Ground
Fire/Ghost
Fire/Ghost
Alright, Water/Ground wins!
CAP 3 - Stat Spread
Slate is once again pretty self-explanatory, but you should take note of what the original submitter of Water/Ground intended that typing to do. Do you think it's the best way to approach this concept? If so, what stat spread would set it up for it to be ideally in the B ranks of OU? If not, how would you go about it? You have a few days to post!
This stat spread is designed with the idea that CAP’s main move is earthquake, as this is what was discussed in the discord.
145 HP
117 Attack
57 Defense
45 Special
54 Speed
HP: 145 HP is made to compensate for bad defenses, as well as giving it a great matchup against seismic toss chansey, a common move on reflect sets. HP will be talked about later when I talk about defenses.
Attack: 117 ATK Allows for a 30.2% to 3hko lax and a 76.2% chance to 2hko chansey with earthquake, making it a great Pokemon to punish these two after reflects are broken. It is very unlikely to 3hko slowbro, but crits will discourage slowbro from trying to rest loop. The attack stat isn't high enough to be problematic though. For example, it never 2hkos Starmie.
Defense: 145 HP in conjunction with 58 Defense allows CAP to survive 3 hits from Snorlax's Body Slam, while still giving it a high chance to be koed from bslam + bslam + hbeam from both tauros and lax. This makes CAP bulky enough to stave off reflect lax, but it's not meta breaking to the extent of walling Tauros.
Special: A low special stat of 45 discourages CAP from using special moves, limiting its coverage options. Preventing CAP from taking advantage of special moves limits its moveset, making it more likely to run haze. 45 Special still allows CAP to always survive 3 hits from Slowbro's surf, and more importantly, a +2 surf into an unboosted surf, if it ever has to switch in to the move.
Speed: CAP Outspeeds Slowbro, Snorlax, and Chansey while being slower than Exeggutor, allowing eggy to snipe it with mega drain or its own sleep move. 54 gives highest crit rate which is good against Slowbro.
If you have any questions about this stat spread feel free to contact me on discord!
145 HP
117 Attack
57 Defense
45 Special
54 Speed
HP: 145 HP is made to compensate for bad defenses, as well as giving it a great matchup against seismic toss chansey, a common move on reflect sets. HP will be talked about later when I talk about defenses.
Attack: 117 ATK Allows for a 30.2% to 3hko lax and a 76.2% chance to 2hko chansey with earthquake, making it a great Pokemon to punish these two after reflects are broken. It is very unlikely to 3hko slowbro, but crits will discourage slowbro from trying to rest loop. The attack stat isn't high enough to be problematic though. For example, it never 2hkos Starmie.
Defense: 145 HP in conjunction with 58 Defense allows CAP to survive 3 hits from Snorlax's Body Slam, while still giving it a high chance to be koed from bslam + bslam + hbeam from both tauros and lax. This makes CAP bulky enough to stave off reflect lax, but it's not meta breaking to the extent of walling Tauros.
Special: A low special stat of 45 discourages CAP from using special moves, limiting its coverage options. Preventing CAP from taking advantage of special moves limits its moveset, making it more likely to run haze. 45 Special still allows CAP to always survive 3 hits from Slowbro's surf, and more importantly, a +2 surf into an unboosted surf, if it ever has to switch in to the move.
Speed: CAP Outspeeds Slowbro, Snorlax, and Chansey while being slower than Exeggutor, allowing eggy to snipe it with mega drain or its own sleep move. 54 gives highest crit rate which is good against Slowbro.
CAP3 Earthquake vs. Snorlax: 158-186 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- 30.8% chance to 3HKO
Snorlax Body Slam vs. CAP3: 137-162 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Chansey Ice Beam vs. CAP3: 112-132 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 31.2% chance to 4HKO
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. CAP3: 100-100 (20.2 - 20.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
CAP3 Earthquake vs. Chansey: 331-390 (47 - 55.4%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
Slowbro Surf vs. CAP3: 140-165 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
CAP3 Earthquake vs. Slowbro: 114-135 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO
Snorlax Body Slam vs. CAP3: 137-162 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Chansey Ice Beam vs. CAP3: 112-132 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 31.2% chance to 4HKO
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. CAP3: 100-100 (20.2 - 20.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
CAP3 Earthquake vs. Chansey: 331-390 (47 - 55.4%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
Slowbro Surf vs. CAP3: 140-165 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
CAP3 Earthquake vs. Slowbro: 114-135 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO
If you have any questions about this stat spread feel free to contact me on discord!
Last edited:
Oops vacation may have sidetracked me a tad
120 HP
120 Attack
60 Defense
60 Special
65 Speed
BST: 425
High HP + lower defenses look nice to discourage use of Special moves since we want to use Haze to bypass reflect, but I do not envision Water STAB being too overbearing considering the many Water resists in the metagame + Chansey, so it's not a major concern. Haze should still provide some cool value given the wide array of things it can do and the very obvious matchups it helps with.
120 HP puts us outside of the 4HKO range on Seismic Toss, which is valuable given we want to be good into Chansey. 120 for Attack as well is capable of 3HKOing Snorlax, [159-187 (30.4 - 35.7%) -- 37.9% chance to 3HKO], while having good odds to 2HKO Chansey [335-394 (47.6 - 56%) -- 83.5% chance to 2HKO].
Our defense is good enough to live two hits from Lax comfortably, so with smart play we can come in on it and threaten haze + sleep. Tauros meanwhile is sketchier, 2 Slams into Hyper Beam always KOs, and if Slam crits it can just Beam us next turn. We do not threaten a 2HKO back, so we aren't winning this exchange assuming Sleep Clause is in effect (I don't see why you'd risk getting your Taurus slept in the first place anyhow). Chansey isn't too bad barring Freeze or Sing, so this +Chansey, =Lax, and -Tauros MU chart seems quite nice.
Starmie is incapable of OHKOing us and cannot 2HKO with Psychic into -SpDef Psychic, and Crit Psychic + Psychic isn't a guaranteed KO either, letting us check it decently and threaten Sleep. Alakazam meanwhile is a much more difficult situation, as it can manage to score 2HKOs on in the same hax scenarios Starmie struggles with.
The weakest Razor Leaf in OU is Dracolilla which has a 76.9% chance to OHKO on the crit. We always die to any other users of the move, and they are all capable of outspeeding us when healthy.
Exeggutor is weird because we don't threaten it outside of Sleep, outside of potential coverage, but there's a good chance it wants to avoid being put to Sleep in the first place. Lagosnow and Cloyster can be similarly frustrating given their good typing into us, and both outspeed.
To cap it all off here's a very simplified idea of what we MU against so far:
Strong (can come in on easily or threaten with damage and/or sleep):
Neutral (able to check or frustrate but can still pressure us situationally):
Weak (if these decide to come in on us we're probably in a bad spot):
+ prior CAPs
120 HP
120 Attack
60 Defense
60 Special
65 Speed
BST: 425
High HP + lower defenses look nice to discourage use of Special moves since we want to use Haze to bypass reflect, but I do not envision Water STAB being too overbearing considering the many Water resists in the metagame + Chansey, so it's not a major concern. Haze should still provide some cool value given the wide array of things it can do and the very obvious matchups it helps with.
120 HP puts us outside of the 4HKO range on Seismic Toss, which is valuable given we want to be good into Chansey. 120 for Attack as well is capable of 3HKOing Snorlax, [159-187 (30.4 - 35.7%) -- 37.9% chance to 3HKO], while having good odds to 2HKO Chansey [335-394 (47.6 - 56%) -- 83.5% chance to 2HKO].
Our defense is good enough to live two hits from Lax comfortably, so with smart play we can come in on it and threaten haze + sleep. Tauros meanwhile is sketchier, 2 Slams into Hyper Beam always KOs, and if Slam crits it can just Beam us next turn. We do not threaten a 2HKO back, so we aren't winning this exchange assuming Sleep Clause is in effect (I don't see why you'd risk getting your Taurus slept in the first place anyhow). Chansey isn't too bad barring Freeze or Sing, so this +Chansey, =Lax, and -Tauros MU chart seems quite nice.
Starmie is incapable of OHKOing us and cannot 2HKO with Psychic into -SpDef Psychic, and Crit Psychic + Psychic isn't a guaranteed KO either, letting us check it decently and threaten Sleep. Alakazam meanwhile is a much more difficult situation, as it can manage to score 2HKOs on in the same hax scenarios Starmie struggles with.
The weakest Razor Leaf in OU is Dracolilla which has a 76.9% chance to OHKO on the crit. We always die to any other users of the move, and they are all capable of outspeeding us when healthy.
Exeggutor is weird because we don't threaten it outside of Sleep, outside of potential coverage, but there's a good chance it wants to avoid being put to Sleep in the first place. Lagosnow and Cloyster can be similarly frustrating given their good typing into us, and both outspeed.
To cap it all off here's a very simplified idea of what we MU against so far:
Strong (can come in on easily or threaten with damage and/or sleep):
Neutral (able to check or frustrate but can still pressure us situationally):
Weak (if these decide to come in on us we're probably in a bad spot):
+ prior CAPs
Been a very long 24 hours!
140 HP
130 Atk
55 Def
50 Spc
65 Spe
This hits similar defensive benchmarks to the other two subs. The high attack nearly ensures a 3HKO on Snorlax before Reflect, though with Body Slam paralysis as a factor, it isn't a perfect counter. Chansey is cleanly 2HKOed before Reflect, and Haze can actually ensure it can't stall out the EQs with Softboiled. Speed tier outspeeds Exeggutor to increase our options as a reliable sleeper, increasing its roles beyond haze.
140 HP
130 Atk
55 Def
50 Spc
65 Spe
This hits similar defensive benchmarks to the other two subs. The high attack nearly ensures a 3HKO on Snorlax before Reflect, though with Body Slam paralysis as a factor, it isn't a perfect counter. Chansey is cleanly 2HKOed before Reflect, and Haze can actually ensure it can't stall out the EQs with Softboiled. Speed tier outspeeds Exeggutor to increase our options as a reliable sleeper, increasing its roles beyond haze.