OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

I had some experience with it when Lapras was still around: I remember that because Snorlax and Lapras are both matchups that will make you want to reconsider your decisions. Clefable was decent early in the game, using Blizzard against Exeggutor and Sing. I also tried Mega Kick, but I wouldn't recommend it. Rest/mini Snorlax never felt good. Yeah, Clefable can be good in the endgame but your average build wants something that will force Snorlax out. What about the teammates?
The first time I used Starmie/Chansey/Snorlax/Tauros/Exeggutor/Clefable. Months later I tried to climb the ladder again with the team, but lead Zapdos was very popular around this time and giving me trouble, so I replaced Starmie with Jolteon and hit the top again with that variation.

EDIT: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2130846221?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2129625346?p2

I played Stealthy Koala a lot back then (who is number 2 on the ladder at the moment). These games aren't indicative of what Clefable does in the end game, because in these games she just kind of cleans up. These replays are more to show how I was playing the mid-game to save Clefable for the late game.

EDIT 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2124974753 I don't really think this is a good game, but the way this one ends is a situation I ended up in a lot playing this team. Saving Clefable for the endgame often lead to Clefable vs Tauros where I got to Paralyze tauros. This is a situation Zapdos is often in, but the difference being the opponent can't switch to something like Rhydon because Clefable has Blizzard.
 
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In my experience Clefable is a bit of a front runner - It's good if you're already ahead but isn't going to turn a game around for you. Kinda like a high floor low ceiling pokemon.
 
I love junk pokemon especially junk normal types, this is right up my ally. I’ve never had clefable at the top of the ladder but I’ve enjoyed playing sing/twave/blizzard/mega kick.
I acknowledge mega kicks accuracy can be an issue but it does free up a move slot compared to body slam + hyper beam, so u can get slp para coverage and stab all on the same set.

And as for early game use mr rocket may be right but the early game line I’ve had some success with is para bait lead + bolt beam chan. When you put in chan early the most common switches are lax if you catch para and eggs if you don’t, clefable can be used to cover both of those pokes with sing, and If sing lands you can use your strong follow up options to really run away with the game.
 
I want to say something about Chanseyless teams. Idk if you guys have ever played fighting games. But in a fighting game, the idea is to use your character's tools to overcome your opponent's character's tools. There is this asymmetry between you and your opponent's character, and the most skilled player usually wins. This changes when your opponent uses the same character as you. These matchups feel different than the rest when you play them. The asymmetry is gone, and therefore the options to gain leverage and momentum feel more limited, and therefore the skill gap beteen you and your opponent decreases to some extent..

In gen 1, because there are so few pokemon, the matches more often than not feel as if they lean more to a mirror match (a match of two symmetrical sides) as opposed to a match of two completely different characters and tools (a match of asymmetrical sides.) I have found that a huge advantage in playing chanseyless teams is that it introduces this asymmetry, which widens the skill gap slightly more between players, and lets the better player gain leverage easier. This isn't to say anything as bold as chanseyless is better, but I have found that when I use chanseyless, my winrate increases, and I attribute that to the introduction of asymmetry.
 
I want to say something about Chanseyless teams. Idk if you guys have ever played fighting games. But in a fighting game, the idea is to use your character's tools to overcome your opponent's character's tools. There is this asymmetry between you and your opponent's character, and the most skilled player usually wins. This changes when your opponent uses the same character as you. These matchups feel different than the rest when you play them. The asymmetry is gone, and therefore the options to gain leverage and momentum feel more limited, and therefore the skill gap beteen you and your opponent decreases to some extent..

In gen 1, because there are so few pokemon, the matches more often than not feel as if they lean more to a mirror match (a match of two symmetrical sides) as opposed to a match of two completely different characters and tools (a match of asymmetrical sides.) I have found that a huge advantage in playing chanseyless teams is that it introduces this asymmetry, which widens the skill gap slightly more between players, and lets the better player gain leverage easier. This isn't to say anything as bold as chanseyless is better, but I have found that when I use chanseyless, my winrate increases, and I attribute that to the introduction of asymmetry.
Peanut gallery - say more stuff about chanceyless teams, I thought that was an interesting post.
Or advantage in asymmetry. I agree with the idea, but I think of it as more of having the upper hand and less of skill. Frame of reference ironically para chan vs chan, but I could see and argument in acquiring the upper hand being a skill.
 
Peanut gallery - say more stuff about chanceyless teams, I thought that was an interesting post.
Or advantage in asymmetry. I agree with the idea, but I think of it as more of having the upper hand and less of skill. Frame of reference ironically para chan vs chan, but I could see and argument in acquiring the upper hand being a skill.
If you imagine an average game, it can go something like this: First turn Jynx mirror. You press lk. So do they. 50/50. They get the sleep. You can stay in expecting them to blizzard, you can switch to chansey, etc. Let's say you switch to chansey. They fish for freeze. You press sing. You sleep them. Now what? You have options, but let's say you press thunderwave so you para whatever comes in. They switch in chansey and the chansey is paralyzed. Let's say you think that they'll press ice beam instead of thunderwave to try to fish for freeze, so you throw in snorlax to catch the ice beam, so you now can put pressure on with lax. They throw their lax in to take the body slam. Maybe you press body slam again here, maybe reflect. But regardless, you eventually both end up pressing reflect. As you can see here... nothing interesting is happening. A lot of
stalemate-y moves. There isn't a lot of room for taking a lot of leverage here. You'll have to gradually fight for it unless you get lucky (such as the jynx that gets the sleep first freezing whatever pokemon that comes in afterward. That's two pokes down in a couple of turns). If you try to fight a mirror, throwing a right punch just causes the reflection to throw the same punch. You're not getting very far fighting your reflection. To be clear, the better player is going to make marginally better plays here which, while marginal, will lead to big rewards (the win). But that leverage is gained MARGINALLY, if the other player isn't bad. Stalemate moves gradually become winning or losing moves.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2250410097-xvg3ghb391dlafzxa8n49nahry3iygdpw

I've posted this elsewhere, but if you watch this game, it is a fight to the death from the very beginning, though the beginning is a little boring. Our team structures are so different that we can't throw the same punch. Pressure is on from go. This means you are making game winning moves or game losing moves (as opposed to stalemate moves) the majority of the game, and the player who plays the most intelligently is going to win (it goes without say that this goes out the window when rng rears its ugly head.) But hopefully this is slightly clearer in conveying what I mean.
 
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A remark I would like to make here is that freeze and sleep can be defining in RBY by nature. But players have the choice in the teambuilder (and during a battle) to either go with a strategy that is part of a trend, or try to react to this trend and counteract it. So I think it's not the meta itself but the players who make those choices. There is considerable depth in the RBY metagame despite the relatively low amount of viable Pokémon.
 
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