OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

There's a classic mistake for players on the threshold of becoming top level, where they look for midgrounds too often. Sometimes, its just better to roll the dice.

The classic example would be like, if you get a Tauros in against a Chansey in hyperbeam range. And you predict either a twave on a predicted slam, or Starmie to come in. So you switch to your own Chansey. And, yes there are scenarios where is the right move. But most often its a mistake. To click Thunderwave the Chansey has to risk being outright KOed. And even if it predicts correctly, you can crit slam or Chansey can FP. If Starmie comes in, even if you hyperbeam theres a ~20% chance it just dies. And Tauros getting paralysed is not the end of the world. Yes, the Chansey switch has less immediate downside, but you are giving up a potentially game-winning turn to get it.

This is more or less how I feel about Psychic Snorlax. You can run TBolt, or Blizzard, or both, but the situation where you want the midground of psychic is, in my opinion, not worth it.

Especially since you give up the 3hko on enemy Lax, without adding the benefit of the sneaky KO on waters expecting slam + blizzard.
 
The in game scenario is obviously great, but to give a better example for teambuilding specifically, I like Troller’s quote about Pinsir that’s stuck with me over the years.
You gotta accept that match up [against Gengar] is unplayable, Seismic Toss is awful and does not deserve to stay even in OO, you just don't use it.

Some matchups are not meant to be won, you don't use Toxic Zapdos and you surely don't use Seismic Toss Pinsir.
 
Whats the haps with dugtrio in ou? I saw him in the E rank of the viability rankings. I've looked at it's strategy dex and found nothing for ou. What does he do?
 
Not sure about others, but I’ve used it as an anti-lead against Gar. Many teams with Gar don’t have something that comfortably switches into Dug, so it helps you win the early game.
Then you keep it healthy until the endgame and it does ok as a late game sweeper or helps support a Taurus sweep, similarly to Persian.
If you go up against the right team, it’s not bad, but E might be high for it.
 
Hey Rublius I actually have played around with dugtrio and it’s a Pokémon that was close to being viable but didn’t quite make the cut. To answer you question i find it best used as a lead threatening crit Kos on gengar, zam, and jynx. Unfortunately Those are all not necessarily winning matchups, and in all three cases eggs can come in almost for free. You can use a non lead jynx to punish psychic, but once that 1 2 is known people should just start opting for sleep, which can be caught with dugtrio, not the worst but I wouldn’t say its good either. Zapdos is also a common switch in and you lack stab on rock slide so without a crit it isn’t much more effective than slash and imo can be dropped altogether if you want room for things like substitute, sand attack or under my utopian dream rule set big bad fissure.
 
Dugtrio has been used before by the likes of Serpi and Kaz as a sweeper. Its niche is purely its STAB Earthquake and Speed tier, which allows it to pick off chipped foes. Dugtrio is also quite hard to switch into once it hits the field. The only issue is that it's incredibly hard for it to switch into anything, with its only safe entry points being as a revenge killer, on Seismic Toss Chansey, and Jolteon. Its combination of Sand Attack and Substitute can allow it to attempt to set up a sub vs many foes, although this is inherintly unreliable. I do feel the need to say though that Dugtrio is still not a good Pokemon in the slightest, its physical bulk is atrocious and its Earthquake isn't very strong without crits. Notably it completely thuds into Snorlax, not even doing much on a crit.
 
Thanks yall! I started using them a bit and I'm having decent fun with it. I use it along Persian and alakazam and it's been working OK enough. Will have to try them with jynx that sounds a little more reliable than my current team make up.
 
i've seen a few zapdos leads lately. what's that about? is that something that's catching on or just a rare case? if the former, what's the best counterplay?
it's a pretty consolidated thing at the highest level, the general idea is that it presses on zapdos's good matchups even harder from the get go. most of the time they run rest over agility so that they can stay and press if you try to answer the zapdos with chansey, and then just heal it all up again - it's quite annoying and the reality of it is that if your team doesn't have anything that can 1v1 zapdos (which most mie+egg teams struggle to do) you are going to suffer.
giving your snorlax hyperbeam or selfdestruct on those zapdos-vulnerable teams is a nice way to give you a bit of flexibility in the zapdos match up, in general and especially vs the lead. you can easily go chansey, paralyze the zapdos, force it to peck, go lax on the peck, and get an ok-ish trade with slam slam hyperbeam. (this might also work if you don't have hyperbeam because the opponent probably has to respect the threat)
but it is ultimately just a simple truth that a lot of mie+egg teams struggle mightily vs zap lead, which is why it's caught on as a thing now
 
Either frz is an unhealthy mechanic that values rng over ability or 1hko moves should also be accepted. With one legal and one banned I see inconsistency in what determines the rules.

The current argument for a ban on 1hkos is rng, but the undeniable amount of rng already present in the format (including frz) has been deemed acceptable, and if you are to argue that it is un-interactive (which I believe is untrue) then the same argument needs be applied to frz.


If frz meets the criteria for being deemed interactive by having ice types in the format and the possibility of catching a thunder wave to prevent other statuses (something not entirely controllable by the one attempting to counter) than certainly 1hko moves requiring a type check (flying for ground and ghost for normal, both types present In The format) along with a speed check (both things that the countering player has control over) also meets this criteria.

A preemptive reply to the 30% is more than 10% hang up. 75% is also more than 10% yet sleeping powder is allowed. 30% also happens to be slightly less than 33% the odds of getting psychics special drop, and body slams paralysis. ~20% is also more than 10% and that is a common crit rate. And 70% are the minimum odds of a turn being wasted when using fissure or horn drill as opposed to ice beam or blizzard which still put out damage and potential progress. All of these are relevant and impactful. I do not belive this criticism to be objective.
A relevant criticism - repeatability
solutions - a clause limiting each player to 1 per game. A more restrictive version of what is already applied to frz and slp.
Or a ban on frz.

To me this is consistent and logical. I personally believe an unban on 1hkos to be more appealing than a ban on frz for the sake of attempting to add to the format vs taking away from it, as the viable cast has already shrunken over time. with the lead meta largely set and impact of reflect being felt 1hkos could introduce dugtrio as a potential lead and offer a threat against reflect other than different forms of rng. This could breath life into the format in the form of variety, and if It proved to detrimental then simply backtrack. That said if the same could be accomplished with a ban on frz I would support it I just don’t see it. If you disagree or would like to point something out please feel free to respond to me publicly or privately in any way you see fit I don’t offend easily. That being said I don’t have any real expectations of change, but thanks for reading anyways.


- a note to the mods - This is not a question rather a statement relating to the ou meta game and moving this to simple question simple answers would be inappropriate. - thank you
 
Either frz is an unhealthy mechanic that values rng over ability or 1hko moves should also be accepted. With one legal and one banned I see inconsistency in what determines the rules.

The current argument for a ban on 1hkos is rng, but the undeniable amount of rng already present in the format (including frz) has been deemed acceptable, and if you are to argue that it is un-interactive (which I believe is untrue) then the same argument needs be applied to frz.


If frz meets the criteria for being deemed interactive by having ice types in the format and the possibility of catching a thunder wave to prevent other statuses (something not entirely controllable by the one attempting to counter) than certainly 1hko moves requiring a type check (flying for ground and ghost for normal, both types present In The format) along with a speed check (both things that the countering player has control over) also meets this criteria.

A preemptive reply to the 30% is more than 10% hang up. 75% is also more than 10% yet sleeping powder is allowed. 30% also happens to be slightly less than 33% the odds of getting psychics special drop, and body slams paralysis. ~20% is also more than 10% and that is a common crit rate. And 70% are the minimum odds of a turn being wasted when using fissure or horn drill as opposed to ice beam or blizzard which still put out damage and potential progress. All of these are relevant and impactful. I do not belive this criticism to be objective.
A relevant criticism - repeatability
solutions - a clause limiting each player to 1 per game. A more restrictive version of what is already applied to frz and slp.
Or a ban on frz.

To me this is consistent and logical. I personally believe an unban on 1hkos to be more appealing than a ban on frz for the sake of attempting to add to the format vs taking away from it, as the viable cast has already shrunken over time. with the lead meta largely set and impact of reflect being felt 1hkos could introduce dugtrio as a potential lead and offer a threat against reflect other than different forms of rng. This could breath life into the format in the form of variety, and if It proved to detrimental then simply backtrack. That said if the same could be accomplished with a ban on frz I would support it I just don’t see it. If you disagree or would like to point something out please feel free to respond to me publicly or privately in any way you see fit I don’t offend easily. That being said I don’t have any real expectations of change, but thanks for reading anyways.


- a note to the mods - This is not a question rather a statement relating to the ou meta game and moving this to simple question simple answers would be inappropriate. - thank you

Hi, your post offers somewhat of an refreshing perspective, especially considering the RBY community has been having the same debates since 2015. While I wholeheartedly disagree with your arguments, I'll try to keep my response concise, as going into every detail could turn this into an essay.

The main issue with your post is that your premise is "OHKO moves should be allowed because otherwise, the ruling is inconsistent." First, I don't think your post convincingly demonstrates this, and second, if you're advocating for a change to the status quo (i.e., the current RBY ruleset), you need to explain what benefits your proposed change would bring.

First question: Would allowing OHKO moves have a positive impact on the tier? Anyone with enough RBY experience to foresee the consequences would likely say no. Allowing these moves would turn the game into an even bigger dice-fest than it already is. The fact that OHKO moves only work on slower Pokémon doesn't make them any less absurd. What's stopping bulky Pokémon like Snorlax or Lapras from mindlessly using Fissure/Horn Drill against anything paralyzed? Do you really want to face Agility + Horn Drill Dragonite or Rapidash? What value would these strategies add to the metagame? Imagine predicting that your opponent will use Fissure with Snorlax, so you switch to something faster, only to eat a Body Slam in the process. This just creates stupid mind games. This also refutes your argument that "You can counterplay by having Gengar or a Flying type as switch-ins," since Snorlax and Rhydon can just use Earthquake, Body Slam, or Rock Slide on the switch. These scenarios give the player threatening the OHKO move a significant advantage.

Yes, maybe a standard team that doesn't rely on OHKO moves could beat a team built around them, such as one using Rapidash and Seaking. However, adding these moves to the metagame would just create more absurd situations, like Rhydon paralyzing Exeggutor on the switch and then KO'ing it with Fissure. There’s no interaction or strategic value here, just more randomness, leading to what can only be described as degenerate gameplay.

Second question: Is the ruling inconsistent if we allow freeze but not OHKO moves? No, and I think your post is blatantly dishonest on this point.
  • Freeze is manageable by having a special sponge paralyzed (like Chansey or Alakazam). You argue that freeze isn't controllable by the player trying to counter it, but in reality, if your opponent starts the game by spamming freeze moves with multiple Pokemon without trying to paralyze anything at any point, they're going to lose almost every time, especially with Freeze Clause in effect. Dodging OHKO moves is not as manageable as I've explained higher.
  • Freeze moves serve a purpose beyond just freezing; they can deal super-effective damage to certain Pokémon, whereas OHKO moves are purely luck-based.
  • Freeze moves have a 10% chance to freeze, whereas OHKO moves have a 30% accuracy rate, meaning you have a significantly higher chance of being rewarded for using them. Additionally, if you're paralyzing opponents to make your Rhydon or Snorlax faster, you can make real progress with that strategy. In contrast, if you rely solely on freezing and it doesn’t work, you’re left with nothing.
  • The fact that OHKO moves have a 30% accuracy rate is a significant reason why they are far more broken than freeze. Your argument about percentages makes no sense; it's not just about the numbers, but about the actual impact on gameplay.
Even though your account seems like a throwaway or troll, I wanted to respond seriously to shut down this ridiculous idea of allowing OHKO moves in our tier. Hopefully, it will also help future new players understand why that ruling is in place.
 
Hey peasounay. This is not a troll, I don’t interact much on this form but this is my account.
First I just want to emphasize that when I try to have this conversation what I feel has just happed alway happens. there are two arguments 1 - either frz is a problem or 2 - 1hko aren’t. I appreciate the response but it feels like you only responded to half of what I posted focusing on 1hkos. I see the quote you made but those are your words not mine.

- I do believe inconsistencies in the rules are important, but like I said it’s not just unban 1hkos because, it’s also why isn’t frz a problem
- I did briefly mention potential benefits being bringing more Pokémon into the format ie dugtrio as a lead, and another way to answer things like reflect snorlax that aren’t frz fishing or hoping for two crits in a row (other form of rng)
- in regards to you saying it would turn the game into even more of a dice fest, then I ask is frz a problem?
- in regard to slower Pokémon being able to use 1hkos agains paralyzed Pokémon I would point out that paralysis goes both ways.
- In Regards to agility - wrap dragonite dropped out of ou because it is inconsistent. 1hkos are inconsistent. You say what happens when you get swept? First of I recommended a clause limiting you to 1 1hko, and what happens when you set up agility then use fissure and miss twice?
- In Regards to predicting a 1hko and getting hit by body slam that’s called a mix up, those are already a big part of the format, and one of the most interesting aspects of it imo.
- you mentioned the matchup between rhydon and eggs bing flipped on its head due to rng, what about chancey being frozen by blizz when switching In On starmie. Is this something you belive is problematic? Would you call it degenerate gameplay?
- I didn’t say frz isnt controllable I said it’s not completely controllable, which I belive is true you can try to bait para but a good player won’t give it to you. You can’t apply status to your own Pokémon outside of rest.
And if you can say that chancey taking para is counterplay to frz then as I said in the original post why isn’t having immune Pokémon or speed advantage considered counterplay. This emphasis my pointing out inconsistency in ruling.
- no 1hkos are not purely luck based as I just said there is built in counterplay. And I ask when I do have a chancey with para and I’m using ice beam not for damage but for frz say against another chancey is this purely luck based. If so isn’t it a problem.
- then You say frz can fail if you trying to force it, what about 1hkos missing isn’t that nothing? And again counterplay exist and para works both ways
- and as for accuracy yes 1hkos are more accurate. But I would disagree with you saying the %I listed make no sense. It’s to emphasize that there already exist influential rng rolls that are deemed fine.

Nothing that I have said is with dishonesty and as for you saying you just wanted to reply to shut down my argument thats your prerogative, and I understand you’re a proven and respected player but I disagree with it, and I do believe the opening statement is worthwhile of consideration.
 
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I just happened to stumble upon your guys’ discussion about OHKO moves and I wanted to drop my horrible opinions on them that no one asked for. I’m just going to go ahead and say it- if there’s one generation of OU where I feel like OHKO moves could be at least palatable from a competitive standpoint, Gen 1 is that generation, at least for me.

The difference between Gen 1 and other generations in regards to OHKO moves is twofold. First, the accuracy of OHKO moves has something to do with Speed in Gen 1 only, though I can’t remember how exactly the mechanics work off the top of my head. The other difference is just how bulky Gen 1 is compared to other generations, in the sense that there’s not a whole lot of other viable options to make offensive progress in the same way you might use moves like Thief or Knock Off for item removal or entry hazards to punish your opponent’s switching.

Gen 1’s bulky environment actually lends itself pretty well to competitive implementation of OHKO moves in my opinion, since that extra bulk generally equates to more opportunities for Pokémon to actually click their attacks before being forced out. In this sense, OHKO moves serve as the great equalizer some underexplored Pokémon might need to function at all, both by being enabled by Gen 1’s bulky environment and by allowing these Pokémon to make offensive progress within said environment. Allow me to cite one of Gen 1’s most recognizable Ground-Types as an example of why OHKO moves could be healthy in reasonable cases:

:rb/dugtrio:

Dugtrio’s Gen 1 iteration is perhaps best known for being a staple in UU, but one of the reasons it doesn’t see more use in OU is because this tier is far faster, stronger, and most of all, more equipped to take Dugtrio’s hits. With its access to a 30% accurate Fissure, though, Dugtrio gains the option to fish for the chance to brute force its way through most any defensive check that’s not a Flying-Type. I can definitely see why this can be interpreted as uncompetitive, but from my perspective this isn’t too different from other offensive Pokémon in later generations fishing for, say, a 30% Scald burn or a 30% Thunder paralysis. The thing about these offensive OHKO users are that they generally don’t contribute much of anything to the rest of their teams defensively, creating significant opportunity cost even if Dugtrio were to land a game-changing Fissure against, say, a Reflect Snorlax or Chansey. In any other OU metagame, Dugtrio (especially with Arena Trap) may be able to try and fish for multiple Fissure rolls within the same battle if it were to come in on Pokémon that can’t threaten it, such as a Choice-locked Electric-Type move or bulkier grounded targets should the Dugtrio opt to run a move like Substitute on a predicted switch. In Gen 1, though, there’s not much stopping Dugtrio’s Fissure or a Normal-Type OHKO move from being dead weight against a well-played team with a Zapdos or Gengar respectively. In fact, in the case of Zapdos, a full-health Zapdos can even come in and avoid the 2HKO from Rock Slide without a critical hit and set up Agility in Dugtrio’s face, prompting a lose-lose decision on the Dugtrio player’s part. If Dugtrio’s trainer to regain switch advantage by bringing on their teammate Rhydon, they’ve more than likely made the decision to severely limit Dugtrio’s ability to come back in lategame unless one of its teammates faints. If the stars align, though, and more importantly, if the Dugtrio trainer plays well, I can absolutely see a situation where an OHKO move opens up opportunities for the rest of Dugtrio’s team in a midgame setting without necessarily making the battle a free win.

Other possible OHKO prospects in Gen 1 all carry significant opportunity cost as is that keeps them from being considered for every team. Therein lies the beauty of the situation, though: if these OHKO move users already have viable counterplay anyways, and if the ratio of reward to opportunity cost is generally in favor of the Pokémon that would be most likely to be targeted by OHKO moves, I don’t see a problem with keeping these moves legal because of the unique positive metagame interactions they can create in Gen 1 specifically. Dare I say, OHKO moves in Gen 1 feel like they do take some semblance of skill to use effectively, given the fact that they carry more opportunity cost negatives than just their shaky accuracy. This isn’t something like the existing accuracy-lowering moves debate happening in Gen 3 right now, by comparison.
 
"I don't even know how OHKO moves work in RBY but let me tell you why I think they're competitive"

Can we not do this annoying discussion for the 30th time, peasounay was completely correct and there's nothing else to discuss. This would exclusively make RBY less competitive and less fun
 
I just happened to stumble upon your guys’ discussion about OHKO moves and I wanted to drop my horrible opinions on them that no one asked for. I’m just going to go ahead and say it- if there’s one generation of OU where I feel like OHKO moves could be at least palatable from a competitive standpoint, Gen 1 is that generation, at least for me.

The difference between Gen 1 and other generations in regards to OHKO moves is twofold. First, the accuracy of OHKO moves has something to do with Speed in Gen 1 only, though I can’t remember how exactly the mechanics work off the top of my head. The other difference is just how bulky Gen 1 is compared to other generations, in the sense that there’s not a whole lot of other viable options to make offensive progress in the same way you might use moves like Thief or Knock Off for item removal or entry hazards to punish your opponent’s switching.

Gen 1’s bulky environment actually lends itself pretty well to competitive implementation of OHKO moves in my opinion, since that extra bulk generally equates to more opportunities for Pokémon to actually click their attacks before being forced out. In this sense, OHKO moves serve as the great equalizer some underexplored Pokémon might need to function at all, both by being enabled by Gen 1’s bulky environment and by allowing these Pokémon to make offensive progress within said environment. Allow me to cite one of Gen 1’s most recognizable Ground-Types as an example of why OHKO moves could be healthy in reasonable cases:

:rb/dugtrio:

Dugtrio’s Gen 1 iteration is perhaps best known for being a staple in UU, but one of the reasons it doesn’t see more use in OU is because this tier is far faster, stronger, and most of all, more equipped to take Dugtrio’s hits. With its access to a 30% accurate Fissure, though, Dugtrio gains the option to fish for the chance to brute force its way through most any defensive check that’s not a Flying-Type. I can definitely see why this can be interpreted as uncompetitive, but from my perspective this isn’t too different from other offensive Pokémon in later generations fishing for, say, a 30% Scald burn or a 30% Thunder paralysis. The thing about these offensive OHKO users are that they generally don’t contribute much of anything to the rest of their teams defensively, creating significant opportunity cost even if Dugtrio were to land a game-changing Fissure against, say, a Reflect Snorlax or Chansey. In any other OU metagame, Dugtrio (especially with Arena Trap) may be able to try and fish for multiple Fissure rolls within the same battle if it were to come in on Pokémon that can’t threaten it, such as a Choice-locked Electric-Type move or bulkier grounded targets should the Dugtrio opt to run a move like Substitute on a predicted switch. In Gen 1, though, there’s not much stopping Dugtrio’s Fissure or a Normal-Type OHKO move from being dead weight against a well-played team with a Zapdos or Gengar respectively. In fact, in the case of Zapdos, a full-health Zapdos can even come in and avoid the 2HKO from Rock Slide without a critical hit and set up Agility in Dugtrio’s face, prompting a lose-lose decision on the Dugtrio player’s part. If Dugtrio’s trainer to regain switch advantage by bringing on their teammate Rhydon, they’ve more than likely made the decision to severely limit Dugtrio’s ability to come back in lategame unless one of its teammates faints. If the stars align, though, and more importantly, if the Dugtrio trainer plays well, I can absolutely see a situation where an OHKO move opens up opportunities for the rest of Dugtrio’s team in a midgame setting without necessarily making the battle a free win.

Other possible OHKO prospects in Gen 1 all carry significant opportunity cost as is that keeps them from being considered for every team. Therein lies the beauty of the situation, though: if these OHKO move users already have viable counterplay anyways, and if the ratio of reward to opportunity cost is generally in favor of the Pokémon that would be most likely to be targeted by OHKO moves, I don’t see a problem with keeping these moves legal because of the unique positive metagame interactions they can create in Gen 1 specifically. Dare I say, OHKO moves in Gen 1 feel like they do take some semblance of skill to use effectively, given the fact that they carry more opportunity cost negatives than just their shaky accuracy. This isn’t something like the existing accuracy-lowering moves debate happening in Gen 3 right now, by comparison.
In gen 1 the accuracy of 1hko moves is 30% but they fail if the opponents active Pokémon has a higher speed stat. Also worth mentioning that in gen 1 there are no items, abilities, or moves that increase accuracy. I also like mention of zapdos as a counter to dugtrio and the point you made about opportunity cost. Not only can giving up a move be detrimental but missing an attack puts you a turn behind which for a soft Pokémon like dugtrio that gets two shot by a lot of moves is very relevant.
 
"I don't even know how OHKO moves work in RBY but let me tell you why I think they're competitive"

Can we not do this annoying discussion for the 30th time, peasounay was completely correct and there's nothing else to discuss. This would exclusively make RBY less competitive and less fun
Aren’t we not supposed to make mocking 1 line responses?
 
hence the two additional lines about this being a discussion that’s been had repeatedly that has no further territory to explore and will not happen, ohko moves are stupid, unfun, and uncompetitive. if you want to use them play custom games instead of trying to ruin rby ou
 
"I don't even know how OHKO moves work in RBY but let me tell you why I think they're competitive"

Can we not do this annoying discussion for the 30th time, peasounay was completely correct and there's nothing else to discuss. This would exclusively make RBY less competitive and less fun
And like like I said to peasounay this is not a singular argument in favor of unbanning 1hkos it also involves frz as a potential issue. If you see 1hkos as something that makes the game uncompetitive then do you also view frz as an issue?
 
they are entirely separate issues “freeze is bullshit so allow something that’s even more bullshit” is a non-argument and the reasons freeze is still legal are different than any of the arguments you could make for ohko moves

if we’re going to allow mods i do support just fully modding freeze out while keeping ice moves, though
 
they are entirely separate issues “freeze is bullshit so allow something that’s even more bullshit” is a non-argument and the reasons freeze is still legal are different than any of the arguments you could make for ohko moves

if we’re going to allow mods i do support just fully modding freeze out while keeping ice moves, though
Again I would say that the quote you made is not what anyone here has said those are your words.
and perhaps you have not read or are disregarding the points I have tried to make. It seems like your interest is to prevent discussion.
 
Again I would say that the quote you made is not what anyone here has said those are your words.
and perhaps you have not read or are disregarding what the points I have tried to make. It seems like your interest is to prevent discussion.
And if you support the banning of frz than you could join in on that side of the argument presenting your opinions as to why frz is problematic.
 
Having played with OHKOs legal, I agree they arent actually _that_ broken in RBY. Mostly because they are kinda bad. The OHKO ban was kinda brought back from GSC (where their brokenness probably peaked).

But the main reason they arent that broken is that they arent very good (or werent, I'll come back to that). So nobody really used them.

I think they would be a bit more impactful in the current metagame, however, because of the amount of rest that gets used. It would be hard to run reflect Lax, when it is always in danger of getting OHKOed by most physical attackers. However, while this is a change, I personally don't think it would be a positive one.

If you are gonna play with them legal, I recommend including an OHKO clause, similar to sleep clause.
 
And if you support the banning of frz than you could join in on that side of the argument presenting your opinions as to why frz is problematic.
You can't exactly just "ban freeze", its a baked in chance to nearly every single Ice-type move and modding said chance out of the simulator or banning nearly every Ice-move are troll options. You just make yourself look like a clown (whether thats your intention or not) by equating these two completely seperate things. If you want to give any sort of legitimacy to your OHKO moves "argument", false equivalency isn't the way.
 
You can't exactly just "ban freeze", its a baked in chance to nearly every single Ice-type move and modding said chance out of the simulator or banning nearly every Ice-move are troll options. You just make yourself look like a clown (whether thats your intention or not) by equating these two completely seperate things. If you want to give any sort of legitimacy to your OHKO moves "argument", false equivalency isn't the way.
Well I disagree I don’t feel like a clown, but thank you for the constructive response.
- as for frz not being ban able, what do you have to back that up? It’s already a modded game, one of which mods is the complete removal of 1hkos. A hypothetical ban would be simple, instead of preventing the second frz the first would be prevented.
- and as for these two mechanics being incomparable they are both unique but similar the differences is that ice types come with damage and a 10% 1hko and 1hkos are no damage outside of a 30% 1hko. I mean fire blast and haze are not a part of the format, when frz is activated you’re dead and it can be in a position that requires you to take another attack from switch or allow the opponent to heal or boost.
 
Well I disagree I don’t feel like a clown, but thank you for the constructive response.
- as for frz not being ban able, what do you have to back that up? It’s already a modded game, one of which mods is the complete removal of 1hkos. A hypothetical ban would be simple, instead of preventing the second frz the first would be prevented.
- and as for these two mechanics being incomparable they are both unique but similar the differences is that ice types come with damage and a 10% 1hko and 1hkos are no damage outside of a 30% 1hko. I mean fire blast and haze are not a part of the format, when frz is activated you’re dead and it can be in a position that requires you to take another attack from switch or allow the opponent to heal or boost.
i feel like you dont understand what a mod is a mod is somthing thats impossible to replicate in an cartridge scenario or at the very least super unlikly such as sleep clause mod which mods the game to make sleep inducing moves miss every time after you sleep the oponent
the ohko clause isnt an mod its an ban which is completly replicable in an cartridge by just dqing everyone which uses fisure in an cartridge tour setting
and the thing is rby tries to be mostly acurate to cart which was also the reason the dsinc clause mod and freez claus mod are/where somwhat controversial as they arent really replicable on cart (for sleep clause mod you can just say if you sleep 2 mons your dqd)
comming back to your interactivity argument the spreading of paralasis/ absorbing of it is much more common then having either an ghost or flying type on the team which still isnt safe by the way as there are multiple mons that learn both types of ohkos and many of those mons really dont want to switch into the ohko mons and even though its very rare theres still the chance to unfreez trough an fire move or even if its frozen you can use it later as a sac to bring in an cleaner for free or some mons can even still perform functions while frozen good example for that being the frozen golem from big yelows magneton in rby video all these examples are more interactive then just letting an mon die
and lastly a big difence between ohko moves and freez moves is that the freez induzing moves actually have uses outside of cheesing the oponent with an ohko which is important as smogon makes a difrence betwen stratigies whichhave luck even if the reward is very big and strategies which only reley on luck and dont do anything else
 
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