OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2016 to 2020)

[Gen1UUFan]

I just want to advocate for Arcanine to be moved into the relevant niche for OU tier(D ranking i guess?)
. It's a very good anti-lead, outspeeds all the sleepers except jinx and the rare gengar(who would admittedly wall it), and threatens most with a super effective fire blast, while predicting a T-Wave from a para lead (Starmie, Zam, Dragonite, any others im forgetting) and using agility to absorb status and outspeed them all is great. Especially to then threaten crit/Paralysis on them by spamming BS (Ive eliminated/neutered a lot of Alakazam leads that would otherwise screw me up this way). It's also in general a decently fast and bulky pokemon, and can easily ruin its checks by spreading burn/para while still doing a decent amount of damage. It is especially good if Rhy/Gol give you trouble, because thats what most people switch in, a burn cripples them, and it's a predictable way to get then out. I know it's not OU for a reason, but I feel like it can work well, doesn't really need any support, and has a defined, useful niceh, similar to Sandslash and Dodrio, rather than being solely a gimmick/too predictable to be threatening like electrode, Raichu, or any trapper that isnt D-nite.

 

[Heika]

It's a very good anti-lead, outspeeds all the sleepers except jinx and the rare gengar

then it only outspeeds chansey and eggy, the former indeed fears fire blast, the later don't really care of arcanine. And if you speak about every sleepers, it indeed outspeed more than just those two but they ain't seen as lead anyway so out of subject.

predicting a T-Wave from a para lead (Starmie, Zam, Dragonite, any others im forgetting) and using agility to absorb status and outspeed them all is great

First of all Dragonite isn't really a relevant lead. Next, using agility after getting para will indeed ignore the paralysis nerf (which means in case of some weird dnite lead you're not gonna ignore the paralysis /4 speed), implies if you're slower at the begining you're still gonna be slower on turn 2, and if you were faster you're gonna be slower too.

It's also in general a decently fast and bulky pokemon, and can easily ruin its checks by spreading burn/para while still doing a decent amount of damage

it's kinda food for both snorlax and chansey, I mean, if you lead with it you're likely gonna be statued (except if lead eggy), which mean that if rest lax comes in you're gonna hope to land 3 fire blasts in a row criting one thus being para, yes you got odds, arounds 15%. (not mentioning amnesia)
In similar fashion, to break thrue chansey with this, you need to burn it while it is just hitting you. if it's bolt beam you got better odds since he need 5 hits to kill and since without criting hyper beam it's about rolls once it's burn. If it's reflect toss, it 4hko you and you desperatly need to connect and crit hyper beam thrue paralysis while chansey is burn to break it. I mean if it's not burn you have about 2% to kill and about 15% with burn (not mentioning that if you used agility to get ride of paralysis malus it's also likely that he soft boiled on your hyper beam even burn which means 2% too)
So no it doesn't really ruin easily his checks

It is especially good if Rhy/Gol give you trouble, because thats what most people switch in, a burn cripples them, and it's a predictable way to get then out

read above, only reason someone that took time to think about arcanine would send Gol/don is bolt beam chansey being already burned and snorlax not being rest.

rather than being solely a gimmick/too predictable to be threatening like electrode, Raichu, or any trapper that isnt D-nite.

Is it just me or here you're saying that dnite is the sole viable trapper ?


To conclude I guess arcanine could have a place in high E rank if you compare to other E ranks, but hey your post was really full of wrong informations/ informations that seems to be based on low ladder plays

 

[Gen1UUFan]

I'm not here to suggest some new meta, obviously it is limited, and unlikely to see any major usage. Im just saying it has some viable uses, without requiring any real amount of support, and serves as a solid way to counter exeggutor/rare other grass leads, while also pushing Jynx to a coin flip, and being able to potentially para something like Starmie or alakazam (if they use Twave on first turn, and arc uses agility as its first move, it will undo para drop, boost speed, and outspeed both of them at the start of turn 2, allowing for body slam spam to do decent damage, para chance, and increased crit odds, while non surf Starmie and zam dont 2HKO it). burn can really mess up a non rest lax's ability to do damage, sap Tauros' ability to do physical damage as a cleaner, again hurts/can burn Rhy/Gol, and generally hits pretty well on both sides, doing decent damage to whatever switches in, with either move having ~30% to status them as well. Again not saying it's amazing, just has a viable use that is not dependent on tons of support(ie. Poliwrath having good bulk and amnesia but weak to grass, psychic, and Tbolt), completely outclassed by another (ie. Onix compared with Golem), or too predictable to have the intended effect (ie. Raichu's surf helping against ground types).
And yeah I was wrong about trapping, i thought it was a gimicky play style but it can be devastating.

 

[Heika]

being able to potentially para something like Starmie or alakazam

It's not a big achievement for a lead to status the opposing lead, it's his role so for it not to be guaranteed is more against arcanine than for it

and increased crit odds

Nope crit rate is based on speed bst not actual stat in the game (formula: CH%=BaseSpeed*100/512.)

burn can really mess up a non rest lax's ability to do damage, sap Tauros' ability to do physical damage as a cleaner, again hurts/can burn Rhy/Gol, and generally hits pretty well on both sides, doing decent damage to whatever switches in, with either move having ~30% to status them as well.

Agreed that a non reflex lax won't appreciate the burn, and pretty much agreed that all this mons won't appreciate the burn. Fact is, again, to have a shot at burning those, you need to burn chansey first and/or rest lax if there is one. Btw among the 4 pokemon you just spoke about only two are afraid of being status by body slam since the two other can't be paralysed by it.

But yeah I understand that you seems to find a lot of interest in mons that could be "anti meta"

 

[Ortheore]

Hi I just want to chime in and say that under no circumstances should Arcanine EVER be used in RBY. It can't reliably status, not to mention that burns actually benefit certain threats. Its stats are mediocre, given that it lacks meaningful resistances and it doesn't have a physical STAB, while it's too slow to hang with anything fast. But the real nail in the coffin is the comparison with other fire types. Arcanine falls totally flat here because it lacks the one thing that might redeem Fire types- Fire Spin. Although Fire Spin isn't the best Wrap-like move, that's not really saying much because they're bloody good moves. They're invaluable in stifling slower opponents, whether by stopping recovery or simply preventing them from counter attacking as you bring in your own check for free. If they have Agility, AgiSpin can situationally be used to put an opponent in HB range, although it should be used sparingly because its accuracy is just too bad to be a sweeping tool in its own right. Arcanine can accomplish none of these things. All it does is take decent chunks of damage as it comes in and fires off attacks that deal decent chip damage but aren't potent enough to seriously threaten anything. Also Starmie exists.

Overall Arcanine is the second worst Fire type in RBY, with only Magmar being worse. The only Fire types I would ever consider using in RBY are Moltres and maybe Flareon.

 

[morty123]

Are we allowed to make suggestions as to where to add new Pokemon to the list? For example, Scyther, Golbat or Onix? Or are we to assume that they're in a tier lower than E rank?

How is Onix going to damage anything in OU?
As weak as Golbat is, at least it can mega drain the rocks for some decent damage, what does Onix bring to the table?

 

[Jorgen]

Bind. And to a lesser extent, Explosion.

 

[Enigami]

Onix's niche is super narrow. The most damaging thing in Onix's arsenal is Toxic + Bind + base 70 Speed. Considering its absolutely terrible offensive stats (basically a burned Golem), it pretty much must work with Toxic and other Wrap users to do anything worthwhile. As most Wrap/Bind/Clamp/Fire Spin users are flat out better than it, you only use Onix when you simultaneously want to run a ToxicWrap team and also want a hard counter to Zapdos.

I've actually made it work in a tournament once, but ToxicWrap really isn't something you want to start messing with until somewhere after RU, where Fire-types can abuse their high speed + Toxic + Fire Spin to poison Water- and/or Rock-types and rely on the 6% per turn from poison damage and gamble on spinning to win. Ultimately, having actually used it against high level players, I think Onix is worse than everything already in E so unless you're willing to put anything with a niche there, just leave it unranked.

As for Golbat and Scyther... Golbat is one of the worst FE Pokemon in the game (after Ditto, and possibly Hitmonchan, Beedrill & Farfetch'd). Scyther's only value over other SD users is being faster than Zapdos and MAYBE Agility for double dancing, otherwise Pinsir completely outclasses it because A) it actually can do something to Gengar and Rock-types, B) it hits harder, C) it has Bind, and D) it has no BoltBeam weakness and more physical bulk. They have even less cause to be ranked than Onix.

Now, if there's an unranked Pokemon that deserves to be ranked, it's PorygodPorygon. Aerodactyl's ranked, but its only real niche is walling physical Snorlax (which it does badly due to IB Reflect Lax being popular and requiring Rest, inviting dangerous Pokemon like Tauros in), Porygon does the same thing except doesn't auto-lose to Snorlax with special coverage, doesn't let Pokemon in for free because it has instant recovery and has tools that make Pokemon uncomfortable switching into it, and can actually beat Tauros 1v1 unlike Aerodactyl. It's basically a worse Chansey since it can do everything Porygon can (except viably run Hyper Beam) and more, but since Chansey is liable to be paralyzed walling Special attackers and thus being unable to switch into Snorlax, Porygon has a viable role to play alongside Chansey. Plus 32 Recover PP makes it much harder to wear down compared to Chansey. I've used tons of low ranks, and have extensively used Porygon in teams in high level tournaments for a couple years now (with a decent win rate to boot), and I can confidently say it deserves D rank, and would easily be in the better half of Pokemon there.

 

[morty123]

Bind. And to a lesser extent, Explosion.

Why not save you the trouble and go for an actual good wrapper, Dragonite?
"4x weak to ice!", well? Onix is 4x weak to water and grass, cant take an ice beam either btw, and just cant take special hits in general because it has garbage hp and special.


Explosion that cant even ohk Zam? Meh.

 

[Jorgen]

Oh yeah, Onix isn't exactly *good*, but if you want a Zapdos counter that is also a Wrapper for some reason, Onix fits that niche and no other Pokemon can. Golbat's unique niche, by comparison, is nonexistent.

 

[Mr.E]

The only Fire types I would ever consider using in RBY are Moltres and maybe Flareon.

 

[morty123]

Oh yeah, Onix isn't exactly *good*, but if you want a Zapdos counter that is also a Wrapper for some reason, Onix fits that niche and no other Pokemon can. Golbat's unique niche, by comparison, is nonexistent.

I guess its kinda related to walling Zapdos, Onix is the only wrapper that cant be t-waved, which is arguably big.
However, Zapdos comes in, Onix comes in, what exactly is Onix going to do? Hit Starmie on the switch for 10% damage or whatever with rock slide? At least Rhydon can hit hard, with proper prediction, on whatever comes in, or set up substitute.
Onix simply doesnt deal damage, it cant punish switching, most OU pokes can.

Besides not getting t-waved as a wrapper, i will give Onix some credit, its the only one of the rocks that has a minimal chance against eggy, it outspeeds it right? So if you are lucky, you can wrap something that is supposed to be the ultimate counter to death.

 

[Heika]

I guess its kinda related to walling Zapdos, Onix is the only wrapper that cant be t-waved, which is arguably big.
However, Zapdos comes in, Onix comes in, what exactly is Onix going to do? Hit Starmie on the switch for 10% damage or whatever with rock slide? At least Rhydon can hit hard, with proper prediction, on whatever comes in, or set up substitute.
Onix simply doesnt deal damage, it cant punish switching, most OU pokes can.

I think what you don't get is: he is not sayin onix is good by any means.
Oh and to answer you, like any wrapper, onix can punish switches with wrap allowing one to freely pivot as long as you don't miss.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Problem with Onix as a pivot is that it does no damage at all with bind. So it's as much a free pivot for your opponent as it is for you.

I think we are all willing to accept Onix is just awful.

 

[Gen1UUFan]

Overall Arcanine is the second worst Fire type in RBY, with only Magmar being worse. The only Fire types I would ever consider using in RBY are Moltres and maybe Flareon.

I understand why most people would prefer a fire spinning fire type, but why Flareon? Yeah it has some more power behind it, but it has the same issues as Arcanine (terrible movepool, bad typing, best stat doesnt get STAB, lots of counters running around), but is significantly more frail, and because it is also quite slow, with no means of boosting its speed, its main advantage in Fire Spin is kind of moot, and even with that awesome attack stat, I dont think Quick attack will really help it immensely outside of some revenge kills.
I feel like charizard would be the better mixed fire type attacker just because of the ability to switch into and fire off Equake, use slash to hurt reflecters, or use SD, and be a pretty speedy fire spinner. Weaknesses to boltbeam and 4x to rock I feel like are moot because, again, Flareon is frail as is, and OHKOed easier because of its low speed.

 

[Ortheore]

I understand why most people would prefer a fire spinning fire type, but why Flareon? Yeah it has some more power behind it, but it has the same issues as Arcanine (terrible movepool, bad typing, best stat doesnt get STAB, lots of counters running around), but is significantly more frail, and because it is also quite slow, with no means of boosting its speed, its main advantage in Fire Spin is kind of moot, and even with that awesome attack stat, I dont think Quick attack will really help it immensely outside of some revenge kills.
I feel like charizard would be the better mixed fire type attacker just because of the ability to switch into and fire off Equake, use slash to hurt reflecters, or use SD, and be a pretty speedy fire spinner. Weaknesses to boltbeam and 4x to rock I feel like are moot because, again, Flareon is frail as is, and OHKOed easier because of its low speed.

Flareon is only physically frail, specially it does just fine. Also fwiw it takes a STAB EQ (or a decent boom) to OHKO Flareon, everything else falls short. I'll also add that most things that would try to exploit Flareon's poor defense don't really want to switch in due to fear of a burn and also because they generally don't want to take a STAB FB. This means that in practice Flareon tends to attract things that can tanks its attacks but aren't as good at killing it, although entering play is definitely made harder by its poor defense. The slower speed is kinda irrelevant because it's still enough to outspeed the most relevant slow pokemon in rby anyway... by extension, FSpin actually becomes fairly valuable. Also I wouldn't run QA, priority is just not good in a generation where everything has maxed out defenses.

Also I should add that my experience with it is limited. The only player who I know has experimented with Flareon to a significant degree is Disaster Area... who can't comment here bc he's banned iirc. Either way, Flareon is still kinda bad, it's just I don't think it's quite bad enough that I wouldn't consider using it.

The issue I have with Zard isn't just its typing, but also the fact that its stats just aren't good enough- too weak, speed only manages to get it a speed tie with Zap and so on. It's a real shame, because its movepool is so full of potential but it never realises said potential.

 

[Enigami]

Another thing Ortheore doesn't touch on is that 110 Special, which lets it 3HKO Snorlax where Arcanine and Charizard fall short with their Fire Blasts. Crit Fire Blast also is ~75% chance to OHKO Tauros vs. Ninetales' ~35%. Charizard's Slash also doesn't really pressure Reflect users when Chansey is 3HKO'd and Snorlax 5HKO'd, so Snorlax is more afraid of burns and Reflect Chansey will just laugh and 1v1 Charizard if Chansey isn't paralyzed. Flareon atleast can't be restlooped by Snorlax (though crits can break it if it stays in) and vs. Reflect Chansey it can atleast try for the ~11% chance to get the crit Hyper Beam which will OHKO Reflect Chansey. Body Slam is also much scarier for Starmie to switch into than Slash, mostly because of paralysis but there's also the painful crits that take out ~49-58% of Starmie's HP and put it in Hyper Beam range.

I'm not sure which Fire-type would qualify for 3rd place between Ninetales & Rapidash. Ninetales is the usual choice everyone goes with, but I personally feel like Rapidash's +24 Attack stat, 105 Speed making it faster than Zapdos & access to Agility to avoid being entirely crippled by paralysis / outspeed everything would be more valuable than the +20 Special & Confuse Ray. Ninetales' Fire Blasts do hit harder against the non resists, but Rapidash's physical attacks helps it break through those resists Ninetales struggles with (for example, Fire Blast followed by a crit Hyper Beam should KO Chansey), and if it messes up by say burning Starmie, it can always try Agility + Fire Spin + Burn damage to wear it down into KO range. They're both bad choices for OU, so I don't think that we'd ever get enough usage to figure out which pros are more valuable in practice though (or that we'd even care).

Also, I noticed that Flareon is not ranked yet, this should be corrected.

 

[Zokuru]

Short message, but in the " New " stuff I saw some people trying to use, ToxicWrap, Onix could do some damages, with statut. So it may have a real niche with some effectiveness.

 

[morty123]

Short message, but in the " New " stuff I saw some people trying to use, ToxicWrap, Onix could do some damages, with statut. So it may have a real niche with some effectiveness.

ToxicWrap makes more sense for Dragonite, because even though Onix speed is good for a rock/ground, its still not that fast,most things still outspeeds.
Onix needs para support to be able to wrap most things.

 

[Enigami]

ToxicWrap makes more sense for Onix than Dragonite because without it anything Onix does Rhydon or Golem will do MUCH better without getting an absurd amount of luck with Bind, and Dragonite absolutely does NOT have time to spread Toxic. On the other hand Dragonite also loves having Toxic spread around when it is set up to sweep, hence why Onix is best used as a component of a ToxicWrap team.

Onix does not need para support to outspeed most things, 3/4 of the S-Ranks that are practically mandatory are slower, the faster leads often take paralysis, and there are plenty of slower "6th mons" that are common. Plus one of the most common faster "6th mons" is Zapdos, which Onix is walling anyway. The biggest issue Onix has is Tauros. Virtually every team has a Tauros that will usually not be paralyzed regardless of how much "para support" you have or fainted until the end game, switches into Onix easily, one shots it with Blizzard and of course is faster. Victreebel over Eggy or Starmie/Cloyster as 6th is certain to doom it as well.

Speaking as probably one of the only players who has used it in high level competition, it has its niche as an anti-Electric ToxicWrap component, but it only elevates Onix from 100% garbage to mostly garbage.

 

[morty123]

Onix may wall Zapdos, and immunity to t-wave is indeed very nice as a wrapper, but it cant actually do anything in return though, if Zapdos run rest, rock slide fails to even 3hk at times.
Thats the problem of not having an actual attack stat.
I concede on the para support though, many things are actually quite slow in OU, so it doesnt need it, ToxicWrap it is then.
Dragonite could still use it though, but maybe it doesnt need it, as it can also take out things with attacks after a few wraps.

 

[Enigami]

Wat. Rest Zapdos is not a thing in RBY. Zapdos' filler move is almost always Agility and for good reason, and if its running something different its usually Hyper Beam, Light Screen, Reflect or Toxic (for GolDon). Dragonite should not run Toxic, Dragonite is either trying to Agility up ASAP to abuse Wrap or use Wrap (without Agility boost) + Thunder Wave to pressure faster Pokemon like Tauros into taking paralysis, and does not have free turns or the moveslot to run Toxic since you want Surf or Blizzard + Hyper Beam for sweeping alongside Wrap and Agility/Thunder Wave. Onix 3HKOing Zapdos doesn't matter when Zapdos 9+HKOs Onix, what matters is that Onix stops Zapdos cold and keeps it from gaining any momentum, and that it has free turns to throw out Toxic or use Bind to bring in something safely.

A thing to keep in mind also is that not having a guaranteed 3HKO vs. a Pokemon with Rest doesn't matter. They will still be forced to Rest to not be KO'd, and you can try for the 3HKO continually, and this isn't even factoring Onix's 13% crit rate that will very likely trigger from repeated attempts. Even a guaranteed 4HKO is worrisome for the Rest user. This means even if Zapdos WAS a thing, Onix would still beat it without question.

 

[morty123]

Oh, it never run rest in this gen?
That was gen 2 and onwards, my mistake then.
In fairness, Smogon do mention it as an option this gen as well, now that i see it, but its probably outdated then.
Yup, Dragonite has better things to do with its movepool, blizzard+hyper beam, toxic looks like a waste in comparison.

 

[Prinz]

S
Snorlax
Tauros
Chansey
Exegguttor (I consider it still a beast, powder + boom is v good, double edge / mega drain for zam/starm (with the option of hb to get a surprise ko), good vs reflect lax and rhydon which are popular rn

A+
Zapdos
Rhydon
Starmie
Alakazam (the worst of the 4 atm imo, but still A+ for sure, good vs boltbeam chans who is getting popular again)

A
Jolteon
Cloyster
Victreebel

A-
Lapras
Jynx
Gengar

B
Slowbro (not very good atm, but still deserves a rank imo)
Articuno
Moltres
Persian

B-
Golem (explosion is nice vs tauros, but golem really lacks power)
Dragonite

 

[Maya Chansey]

I don't agree with Rhydon and Zapdos being above Starmie. Recently Zapdos has actually been used relatively less, most likely due to the increased presence of Rhydon. Meanwhile, Starmie's usage has soared alongside Rhydon. So I think Starmie should replace Zapdos at the top of A+ rank.

Other than that, I love this tier list, it's insane XD. It reflects how much rby has shifted recently


Edit: I also forgot to mention that the increased presence of rest Jolteon as a 6th spot mon is unfavorable for Zapdos. That, alongside the heightened presence of Rhydon, makes it difficult for Zapdos to get momentum going