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I don't think Porygon at D+ is outrageous at all. All of the genuinely viable mons are already in C or above, D is for things that you can win games with but are hard to justify, Porygon fits that well and it's one of the stronger ones - has more proven success in recent times than other things like Sandslash or Kingler too. And unlike what Enigami said, I definitely believe Porygon's above every pokemon I haven't ranked, much better than Kangaskhan etc.
Regarding vapicuno's points, I agree that the accurate subdivisions are helpful. I don't think VRs are a resource for experienced players at all so there's not much to take away here for me, but less experienced ones will enjoy the precise splitting. I still disagree with some of the placements but that's always going to be down to personal opinion and perception I guess.
Zap vs Starmie is not a good comparison really, because it depends significantly on your opponent's team and current status.
As for surprises, the main one for me is the significant gap between Golem and Rhydon. Can someone explain what changes to the metagame in the past few years have lead to Rhydons rating improving and Golems decreasing?
One other thing I think would be useful is a labelled (and perhaps zoomed in) graph to make understanding the data easier.
As for surprises, the main one for me is the significant gap between Golem and Rhydon. Can someone explain what changes to the metagame in the past few years have lead to Rhydons rating improving and Golems decreasing?
Rhydon 3HKO RestLax and the rarer Slowbro, and 2HKO Chansey and it's better vs Starmie. While Golem is faster and have Explosion, it struggles vs RefRestSnorlax ( Rhydon too to some extend but way less ) ,Chansey and paralyzed Starmie. But if you want to explode on something anyway or you have something to abuse the pokemon above Golem is a good choice.
Any changes to how the list is structured is fine with me, we originally made it back when RBY was just starting to get implemented onto showdown, and people were looking into the tier with fresh eyes. At the time, Wrap wasn't working right on Showdown still, and of course Crystal hadn't made his game shaking discoveries. Things were experimental back then and we were just trying to see what people were using and seeing if they had any relevance. If you want to know what kind of head space we were in, behind the scenes Pikachu was on the list as F for a while as it had enough usage to be in OU for the tier requirements at the time.
RBY is weird eternal metagame where even the tools of analysis fall apart from erosion as you study it.
I think by far the most interesting thing is how this really cut through inertia. Obviously Bel and Cloy have risen in popularity recently, but I know I certainly wouldn't have thought of them as being on par with Lap and I imagine for proponents of those two it would have been extremely difficult to shift their position to that point purely as a result of how discussing these things tends to work out.
Also I think Jynx is bad, I'm surprised to see it so high
I'm still really interested in ranking less viable pokemon, because I think it's cool to discuss stuff that's outside the box. Clearly this statistical method isn't quite suited to that, given that for most of the lower ranks there was just insufficient data- barring some other solution like a prescribed list, I think this is where discussion fills the gap. One question I do have is how many ratings were needed for a D rank pokemon to be listed in the VR?
edit: How were the contributors selected? Also was there an objective procedure used to determine between full tier cutoffs and subtier cutoffs?
disagree but I didn't come here to discuss the call girl
To start this off; are mods able to update the initial headline post with the VR tjdaas posted? Would make sense considering everyone who starts learning rby will look at the first post of this thread.
Now to the nomination I'd like to discuss:
Jolteon B- -> B
From recent experiences of my own and seeing other players use it not only on ladder but in important tournament sets as well (SPL / WCoP / Classic) I have gained confidence that Jolteon deserves to have a little advantage over slowbro and gengar in the viability rankings. The rise of starmie-lead obviously improves the chances of matchupfishing with jolt however I especially like Jolteons traits that offer it good lategame qualities. Most of the time you don't need to reveal it early so you usually have the information advantage, especially if you're running the Starmie/Eggy/Chans/RefLax/Tauros build. It being a zapdos hardcounter but also having good matchup against water types are probably the biggest reasons to pick it up. Pin Missile is better on leadjolt and teams that want eggy weakened but in general Rest should be considered the superior option. If you don't get frozen you beat chans with it which is a difference maker but it even comes in handy in times apart from that.
More teams running Vic and thus missing out on eggy is also a positive even though small improvement because the para on the grass type gets so much more valuable. Fast twave is as amazing as ever.
Slowbro as well as Gengar really aren't in a favorable position in this metagame which doesn't mean I don't know and value their qualities. I just think Jolteon is in a small but noticable better spot which should be displayed in the VR.
Sidenote: Due to only B+ and B- existing at the moment I guess you could argue if people want Lapras to drop to B but obviously staying above Jolteon. This might be worth a thought but also maybe too harsh. It's just that the other 3 in B+ provide more for their teams than lap does currently but I'm not sure on this take so I'm just going to put this thought in the room
Slowbro as well as Gengar really aren't in a favorable position in this metagame which doesn't mean I don't know and value their qualities. I just think Jolteon is in a small but noticable better spot which should be displayed in the VR.
Don't want to be rude but if you say that you're not informed enough to comment on the value of Bro and Gar's qualities why do you make the argument that Jolteon deserves a rise because it's stronger than them?
There's been a lot of Jolteon lately because Nails built a specific team that has Jolteon in it and it rocks, so people are trying to figure out if there are other creative ways to use it. I don't think it reflects any substantial strength or improvement of Jolteon itself. I don't think the metagame is unfavorable to Slowbro or Gengar, but they're heavily match up reliant pokemon, which means people are less likely to trust them in crucial games generally. That's why you see them less often, they're not any less good than they were months ago, they're just really tricky and generally need surprise factor to work, so no individual player can use them repeatedly and consistently because they immediately drop in strength the moment your opponent starts being safe and loading up the TBolt Starmies and EQ Laxes.
If there's any changes worth making at the moment, it'd be updating everything to reflect the rankings from tjdaas's post. It's pretty much a community consensus already so I don't think there even needs to be much discussion about it.
Slowbro as well as Gengar really aren't in a favorable position in this metagame which doesn't mean I don't know and value their qualities. I just think Jolteon is in a small but noticable better spot which should be displayed in the VR.
Don't want to be rude but I think you should read again Amaranth
To not let this be a oneliner I know fully well about nails team and added to it working well there are a few more points why Jolt should be this little notch over slowbro and gar. It's able to perform well against all of the big4 and you as one of the biggest representatives of the opinion that eggy is worse than starmie make pin missile less needed which opens up the slot for much needed rest. Furthermore the decline of zam is a point that I forgot to mention earlier. It can chip every mon that is considered a hardcounter easily, has good utility in fast twave, 25% critrate, good STAB, pp stalling capabilites due to rest, beats all water types, 4hkoes lax but actually has a 58% chance of 3hkoing and it synergyzes extremely well with Tauros.
This should display consistency that I believe neither Slowbro nor Gengar possess.
[If there's any changes worth making at the moment], it'd be updating everything to reflect the rankings from tjdaas's post. It's pretty much a community consensus already so I don't think there even needs to be much discussion about it.
To not let this be a oneliner I know fully well about nails team and added to it working well there are a few more points why Jolt should be this little notch over slowbro and gar. It's able to perform well against all of the big4 and you as one of the biggest representatives of the opinion that eggy is worse than starmie make pin missile less needed which opens up the slot for much needed rest. Furthermore the decline of zam is a point that I forgot to mention earlier. It can chip every mon that is considered a hardcounter easily, has good utility in fast twave, 25% critrate, good STAB, pp stalling capabilites due to rest, beats all water types, 4hkoes lax but actually has a 58% chance of 3hkoing and it synergyzes extremely well with Tauros.
This should display consistency that I believe neither Slowbro nor Gengar possess.
It doesn't perform well against all of the big4 at all, Exeggutor stops it dead in its tracks (assuming no Pin, which is the common set nowadays), Lax obliterates it and doesn't mind para. I don't think Alakazam is declining. Jolteon cannot chip Rhydon "easily" considering he has to hit the Double Kick on a prediction and if he gets it wrong he has to switch out immediately. We all know what Jolteon does on paper, listing its qualities is not much of a contribution, look at how it practically works out in games instead. The problem with Jolteon is that almost everything in OU can either 1v1 it or at least TWave it and switch out without losing too much, and then you're left with either a paralyzed Jolteon that accomplishes fuck all, or you click rest and then you have an asleep Jolteon that can never wake up without inviting Tauros (or Snorlax, or whatever else is in a prime position to break depending on the state of the game, since the list of pokemon Jolt can wake up on starts and ends with Zapdos and Chansey). If you can flawlessly pull off repeated switchbacks on Tauros without ever getting a play wrong, congratulations, but that's you being good at pokemon, not the pokemon you're using being good. And that's the "good" match ups for it, a decently piloted Rhydon pretty much never loses the match up.
The Nails team is successful for three essential reasons:
1. It can afford a fresh Starmie in the back to switch in on Tauros, which means Jolteon can actually wake up. Jolteon cannot wake up without a fresh Starmie ready to go.
2. It generates numerical advantage really easily by landing Sleep -> one of Freeze or Counter pretty reliably, which means the rest of the team does not need to trade as well as usually needed. You can afford to have a pretty worthless slot as long as it patches up very specific breakers - Zapdos being the trouble breaker and Jolteon being the answer. It also helps that Jolteon can be set up to clean fairly easily if all three of sleep/freeze/counter land, but those scenarios are very rare and generally games that are hard to lose in the first place.
3. The other 5 in that team all carry Ice Beam or Blizzard, so Rhydon players don't get many (if any) chances to play it offensively, it becomes a passive answer to the Jolteon and little else. The other big Jolt answer in Exeggutor also just gets to ram his face against a near perfect answer in Jynx, and achieves nothing.
Nearly none of those reasons apply to Jolteon in more generic builds. It's a perfect cog in the machine, sure, but that's also exactly what Slowbro and Gengar are for the most part. Very successful in very specific teams and/or match ups, complete tragedies otherwise. In fact, I firmly believe Gengar can perform well in much more varied builds than Jolteon.
I have updated the OP with the rankings I posted a month earlier. I'm planning to ask everyone to hand in their rankings a week or 2 after WCoP or PPL to see if the meta has changed (and will do that after every major tour like SPL/WCoP in the future). I have dropped all mons that were originally in D and E-rank down to E-rank, but I feel personally that some mons deserve higher. If some mons that are unranked or are currently in E-Rank, but deserve to be higher, do not hesitate to nominate those!
Alright. I know enough to rank stuff, and I know the ranks perfectly, so...
Blastoise from UR to E.
Does some very minor stuff mons at higher ranks can do better, and you're better of using a water type like Lapras, Starmie, or Cloyster, but it still does some stuff.
Defeats the rock duo, beats Dragonite with ice beam (unless it gets super lucky and hits wrap before you can use ice beam twice), pretty good bulk (better off using Slowbro or Chaney for bulk though), beats moltres (very minor though, and many others can do it such as the rock duo, Zapdos, Lapras, ect), and with heavy team support, it can do some stuff. But like I said, the team support has to be heavy for just this one Mon. So yeah, does some stuff, but not enough to get D where it can do some stuff other mons can't, and not need heavy team support. Also, quite a bit of viable mons beat it, like Jynx, Zapdos, Slowbro, ect.
Virtually everything Blastoise does, Vaporeon does better, and Vaporeon is unranked because mons like Chansey, Alakazam and Starmie exist and will basically prevent Blastoise or Vaporeon from contributing anything meaningful. "Beating" Dragonite with base 78 Speed is laughable, Dragonite will either Wrap Blastoise to death or pass it to one of the many OU Pokemon that beat it without breaking a sweat. You also have no specifics for your reason for E rank beyond beats Rocks (which plenty of OU Pokemon do far better), beats Dragonite with Ice Beam (what doesn't beat Dragonite with Ice coverage assuming Wrap is out of the picture?), beats Moltres (Chansey and Starmie do this with instant recovery, Vaporeon has much greater Special Defense, Omastar and Kabutops have 4x Fire resistance+Normal resistance), and with "team support it can do some stuff", ... what exactly, can Blastoise do, that couldn't be done much better by any of the current Water-types? Nothing at all. Blastoise stays UR and for good reason.
Alright. I know enough to rank stuff, and I know the ranks perfectly, so...
Blastoise from UR to E.
Does some very minor stuff mons at higher ranks can do better, and you're better of using a water type like Lapras, Starmie, or Cloyster, but it still does some stuff.
Defeats the rock duo, beats Dragonite with ice beam (unless it gets super lucky and hits wrap before you can use ice beam twice), pretty good bulk (better off using Slowbro or Chaney for bulk though), beats moltres (very minor though, and many others can do it such as the rock duo, Zapdos, Lapras, ect), and with heavy team support, it can do some stuff. But like I said, the team support has to be heavy for just this one Mon. So yeah, does some stuff, but not enough to get D where it can do some stuff other mons can't, and not need heavy team support. Also, quite a bit of viable mons beat it, like Jynx, Zapdos, Slowbro, ect.
Blastoise is badly outclassed by Vaporeon. Vaporeon takes special hits so much better and is considerably stronger as well. Blastoise has an ever so slightly better physical bulk (but we're talking margins of 2-3%) and it outspeeds Victreebel, as well as having a slightly stronger Body Slam (again, 2-3% margins), but that's very very little when compared to the damage taken from special attacks (Vap takes 24-29 from Alakazam's Psychic, Blastoise takes 36-43).
Considering Vaporeon is UR itself, and almost unequivocally outclasses Blastoise in everything that it does, I'm afraid your nom doesn't have legs to stand on
About that, I said "you're better off using another water type like Slowbro or Lapras" and "you're better off using Chansey as a bulky mon". Besides, E rank is where the Pokémon do little to nothing viable, get outclassed, and only good with team support. Yes, Dragonite isn't really top tier or anything, but you do see it from time to time. And I said a multitude of times " there are Pokemon that do it's roles better, and without a crap ton of team support "
About that, I said "you're better off using another water type like Slowbro or Lapras" and "you're better off using Chansey". Besides, E rank is where the Pokémon do little to nothing viable, get outclassed, and only good with team support.
By that definition we could add literally every pokemon in the dex to E rank... E rank is for things that at least have some unique combination of qualities, however useless they might be. For how poor Aerodactyl is, it walls Snorlaxes without Ice Beam, for example - that's a generally unique quality even amongst OU pokemon that earns it a spot in E rank, despite it being very bad. To make another example, Golduck is almost entirely outclassed by Slowbro, but crucially it's faster than Exeggutor, which means it is somewhat better at breaking teams in specific circumstances. Raichu is really weak and really bad, but it gets Surf, so Rhydon doesn't trouble it as much as it troubles other Electrics. These E-ranks are all absolutely terrible, but what they do still have above the URs is some sort of uniqueness, some set of qualities or specific match ups against OU threats that makes them at least somewhat justifiable. Blastoise on the other hand doesn't have anything unique to it. Everything that Blastoise does, freaking Vaporeon does better, let alone other OU-viable Water-types.
A lot of the E ranks I will admit are rubbing me the wrong way, but due to the better analysis going on with fresh eyes I can see why Porygon, Kingler, and Sandslash, and Pinsir have their heads above the water here. Maybe it would be best to note the better of the E-pokes and maybe that might help us out here, tho sub-dividing E seems kind of silly when you look at how E is treated in any other ranking system on this forum.
Kangaskan: other people have said it already here
Gyarados: the thing hits like a truck, excellent movepool and stats
Golduck / Polywrath: faster and mixed Amnesia sweepers in contrast to Slowbro
E pokes that I am kind of mixed about:
Nidoking / Nidoqueen: ok mixed attackers, but the typing is not helpful here
Clefable: again, ok mixed attacker, but the stats are sub-par compared to its competition outside of speed
Dodrio: ok, but everyone has a Rhydon or Golem on their team and there are better normals
Tentacruel: another SDer and wrapper in one package, faces still competition with higher ranking pokes tho
Venusaur: SD, faster sleep powder than Eggy, ok stats I guess
Hyper Niche Pokes:
Charizard: SDer, a worse one tho, can Earthquake the rocks and roast Eggy
Ninetails: literally just an anti-Eggy lead
Arcanine / Ninetails: other ways to burn Eggy (seeing a pattern)
Raichu: everyone knows Raichu has surf
Aerodactyl: fast boi, normal and earthquake resist
Electrode: also fast boi, explodes too
Dugtrio: slightly less fast boi, electric immunity
Machamp: basically the only relevant Fighting type besides Poliwrath, seeing "super effective" on Snorlax is cool
Tangela: ?
A lot of the E ranks I will admit are rubbing me the wrong way, but due to the better analysis going on with fresh eyes I can see why Porygon, Kingler, and Sandslash, and Pinsir have their heads about the water here. Maybe it would be best to note the better of the E-pokes and maybe that might help us out here, tho sub-dividing E seems kind of silly when you look at how E is treated in any other ranking system on this forum.
Kangaskan: other people have said it already here
Gyarados: the thing hits like a truck, excellent movepool and stats
Golduck / Polywrath: faster and mixed Amnesia sweepers in contrast to Slowbro
E pokes that I am kind of mixed about:
Nidoking / Nidoqueen: ok mixed attackers, but the typing is not helpful here
Clefable: again, ok mixed attacker, but the stats are sub-par compared to its competition outside of speed
Dodrio: ok, but everyone has a Rhydon or Golem on their team and there are better normals
Tentacruel: another SDer and wrapper in one package, faces still competition with higher ranking pokes tho
Charizard: SDer, a worse one tho, can Earthquake the rocks and roast Eggy
Venusaur: faster sleep powder than Eggy, ok stats I guess
Hyper Niche Pokes:
Ninetails: literally just an anti-Eggy lead
Arcanine / Ninetails: other ways to burn Eggy (seeing a pattern)
Raichu: everyone knows Raichu has surf
Aerodactyl: fast boi, normal and earthquake resist
Electrode: also fast boi, explodes too
Dugtrio: slightly less fast boi, electric immunity
Machamp: basically the only relevant Fighting type besides Poliwrath, seeing "super effective" on Snorlax is cool
Tangela: ?
The E-ranks definitely need some work, I agree. I think we need to redefine E to be a bit stricter and cut all the 'hyper niche' things you outlined. Kangaskhan, Gyarados, Golduck, Poliwrath, Clefable, Dodrio, Tentacruel, Flareon, and maybe Omastar are a cut above the rest of the E-ranks I think, it's not really useful to mention anything else imo. It's also really questionable how there are so many garbage fire types in E but no Flareon who is the best non-Moltres fire in the tier. Minor stuff but might as well work on it since we settled all the ranks of the relevant pokemon already
Hi I was using Gyara, Nidos and Poli not too long ago and they really aren't viable
Nidos are pure trash. All they've got going for them is coverage, which doesn't mean much when they're so incredibly weak. Meanwhile between their poor bulk and the woeful typing that leaves them hit super effectively by the majority of the game, even if they have the offensive coverage, whatever they're facing is likely to be hitting them super effectively as well, and with a LOT more power than they can muster.
Poli has a bunch of flaws. The first is its mediocre BST, which means if it's not sleeping or setting up, it will take a lot more damage than it can dish out. On the topic of sleep, its typing and coverage options means it basically can't do anything to Star/Zam, which is a massive deal in and of itself, but is compounded by the fact that they happen to be two of the most common sleep blockers. The nail in the coffin though, is that even if you do somehow put it in a position to succeed, it's so incredibly unreliable that will often let you down anyway
Gyara is frankly piss-weak and you should always be using Lapras instead. Without a physical STAB, its power is pathetic. Gyara can't even 2HKO Chansey, which is terrible and also defeats the purpose of having that attack in the first place- if your extra attack isn't actually letting your coverage-dependent attacker break through its primary nemesis, what's the point? On the special end, base 100 special is far from spectacular in rby, while its lack of an Ice typing means it will inevitably encounter coverage issues. Defensively, it's got EQ immunity going for it and literally nothing else. Its physical bulk is decent (on par with Tauros and Egg), but that's not really good enough when Lapras exists, and tangling with Normals will get it worn down pretty fast (also paraSlam is a nightmare for it). Tbolt weakness is surprisingly difficult to play around, since at least with other bulky waters they can afford to risk weak non-STAB Tbolts to get stuff done, whereas Gyara doesn't have that luxury
I don't consider Golduck, Tenta or Omastar to be viable, but I've not used any of them so I won't say too much
========================
I am firmly of the opinion that pokemon perfect's VR is mostly spot on in terms of E rank stuff (we really ought to update the rest of the tiers to reflect the recent survey though lol)- by far the most contentious imo is Kabutops, since afaik it's placed purely based on theory (worse Kingler, but Rock type is cool and can help setting up e.g. by catching HBeam), I don't know of anyone who used it.
For reference, I've included the aforementioned rank
Poli has a bunch of flaws. The first is its mediocre BST, which means if it's not sleeping or setting up, it will take a lot more damage than it can dish out. On the topic of sleep, its typing and coverage options means it basically can't do anything to Star/Zam, which is a massive deal in and of itself, but is compounded by the fact that they happen to be two of the most common sleep blockers. The nail in the coffin though, is that even if you do somehow put it in a position to succeed, it's so incredibly unreliable that will often let you down anyway
Fucking bullshit. What? Have you actually played with Amnesia+Hypnosis Poliwrath extensively at all?
"Can't touch Star/Zam?" If it has a turn to set up Amnesia as they switch in this is what happens:
+2 Poliwrath Hydro Pump vs. Alakazam: 168-198 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 Poliwrath Hydro Pump vs. Starmie: 155-183 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
Not wise for them to try to Recover up the damage repeatedly because you can just start Amnesiaing again, and then it becomes a BIG issue. Their TWave lowers your odds to move but you'll still be faster so it doesn't really help them survive the exchange.
Obviously it's not a great pokemon, relying on Hypnosis and Hydro Pump hitting and on not getting crit by Psychics, and it has to pick between being hard stopped by either Chansey or Exeggutor (depending on whether 4th move is Submission or Blizzard), with only Hypnosis to answer whichever of the two you're walled by, but dude, this is a rank where you're including fucking Clefable and Raticate, this thing should ABSOLUTELY be in. I suspect that you came to your opinion because you used Surf, which misses out on a ridiculous amount of really important ranges (the two posted above mainly, but also stuff like missing the 2hko on Snorlax at +2 / ohko at +6, missing Tauros ohko at +4, probably a couple others I'm forgetting about).
I've tested Poliwrath a fair lot with Heroic Troller and he's tried it his fair share of games too, he can confirm Poliwrath is absolutely better than other random junk like Clef. Sadly I didn't save any replays and I didn't trust the accuracy enough to bring it to any relevant tournament games, so I have no evidence for my claims, but like, go play with it yourself, it's seriously not bad.
No strong opinions on the rest of your post, although there are other things I disagree with, but let's address this first because I feel like a lot of people have no clue about how good Poliwrath can be
If you look carefully in my post you'll see that I state that I have indeed used Poli. You yourself acknowledge this later on, so I don't see why you're being so incoherent
Anyway, I'll concede that I overstepped the mark in pointing to StarZam as sleepblockers. It was also mildly inaccurate to characterise Poli as unable to touch them, but only mildly, since Poli needs to be fresh and not unlucky to actually break through them otherwise they still overwhelm it, conditions which are very specific and require an absurd amount of support
I echo Tin, i tested Poliwrath my fair share in tours and despite being poor it is not soo bad, clearly better than Raticate or Clefable, i'd even say it ties Pinsir in viability. What you say is also wrong, Alakazam is terrible switch in and the chances to setup Poliwrath are there with Rest Lax being alwars around. How about we ditch real unviable instead of what you don't like? Hello Raticate
If you look carefully in my post you'll see that I state that I have indeed used Poli. You yourself acknowledge this later on, so I don't see why you're being so incoherent
Anyway, I'll concede that I overstepped the mark in pointing to StarZam as sleepblockers. It was also mildly inaccurate to characterise Poli as unable to touch them, but only mildly, since Poli needs to be fresh and not unlucky to actually break through them otherwise they still overwhelm it, conditions which are very specific and require an absurd amount of support
Notice the word 'extensively'. I assume you played it with Surf and it was shit (no surprises there) so you convinced yourself that it's unviable and that was the end of it for you. Nothing in my post is incoherent.
Conditions for Poliwrath to overwhelm Zam especially are really really common dude, it just needs to be paralyzed and Poli needs a free turn on a resting Lax or on anything else that needs to run from Hypnosis (Chansey, Eggy, etc). After that it just needs to hit two Hydro Pumps (while not paralyzed against a paralyzed enemy) and avoid getting crit, and Zam's down. It's not a mon that switches out and in repeatedly throughout the game that's for sure, it just finds a chance to set up and tries to get as much as it can out of it, if played well that means dead Alakazam + asleep Chansey + serious chip on Exeggutor, the upside on this thing is ridiculous when it doesn't get unlucky, cutting it from E would be genuinely barbaric and it's already quite barbaric that it wasn't voted into D (I accept that it's a bit borderline due to how inconsistent it is, but I think Poliwrath didn't get ranked highly out of ignorance of its capabilities more than anything since I don't think anyone has tried Amnesia+Hydro Pump much at all)
Notice the word 'extensively'. I assume you played it with Surf and it was shit (no surprises there) so you convinced yourself that it's unviable and that was the end of it for you. Nothing in my post is incoherent.
Why on earth would you assume that? That's no less presumptuous than my initial post, which I'll admit could've been irritating since I acted as though no-one used it, which was clearly false.
Anyway your points aren't bad so I guess I'll drop the issue
Agreed on Nidos being rubbish, noone should ever use them. In a typical team 5 pokemon will have Super Effective moves against them, possibly even every pokemon.
I'd also argue there's no reason to use Electrode. It's significantly less powerful than Jolteon and its movepool is just awful. Can't hit Goldon, can't hit Eggy or Chan without exploding. Explosion comes from a pathetic attack, and really requires a CH to be worthwhile. Noone should ever use Electrode.
(You may argue that Dodrio and Kangy are just inferior Tauros, the difference is that it's totally reasonable to use 2 physical sweepers on your team.)
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