OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2016 to 2020)

[Hipmonlee]

Nah, Rhydon was always better..

 

[Mr.E]

I mean, I think Rhydon was even better in ye ol' paraslam meta because increased incidence of PAR benefits Rhydon more.

 

[Gen1UUFan]

And years before that, Golem was more popular. Did it take everyone else 20 years to catch up to me?

I don't think the slightly higher chip on Eggy is meaningful so much as the potential 2HKO on Starmie , guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey, potential 3HKO on Slowbro, etc. If you're just bemoaning Eggy dumping on your Ground-type trying to wreak some havoc, perhaps it's time for the Sandslash Era to begin.

I am in favor of this <3 continuing a previous point however I think Sandslash is one of those weird Niche mons that is probably a bit better in OU than UU just because it has decent matchups against Big 4 (except Tauros) and Alakazam and can sweep endgame because of its actual good speed tier (due to how polarized speed tiers are in RBY OU.)

 

[Lusch]

On Rhydon vs Golem:
Let's just be objective here. Yes they are very similar (same typing, similar stats and movepools). Let's look at the factual differences (without taking the metagame into account first):
Rhydon is slightly more bulky on both sides (does not matter by how much, bulkier is bulkier), hits harder on the physical side (more significant in terms of XHKOs, but even if that was not the case, hitting harder means hitting harder) and gets >100 HP Substitutes. Those are objectively the advantages of Rhydon.
Golem hits harder on the special side, has 5 more base speed and Explosion. Those are objectively the advantages of Golem.

Now, this is a viability rankings thread. I know it seems confusing at first why two very similar Pokemon are that far apart from each other in a ranking. That is because we are not looking at an on-paper power ranking (in which they'd be closer) but rather ask ourselves for every individual Pokemon the question: "How usable is this Pokemon in general in the RBY OU metagame?" (And in the case of Rhydon and Golem also "What reasons are there to use Rhydon/Golem over the other?")

So let us look at the differences described in the first paragraph in the context of the metagame:
The reasons to use Rhydon over Golem are very apparent: Hitting harder and being more bulky, it's clear on paper and a look at the metagame confirms that it actually makes a differnce, not only on paper. I know this has been done a million times, but once more the most important calculations on Rhydon's advantages:
Offensive:
~guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey*
~(pratically) guaranteed 3HKO on Snorlax*
*will talk about these match-ups further below, especially against varaints carrying Reflect, which Snorlax and Chansey commonly do.
~70% chance to 3HKO Slowbro
~2HKO on Lapras with RS, 3HKO on lapras with EQ
~more damage against Exeggutor: Golem needs to RS x4 to safely KO, Rhydon safely KOs with BS x2 + RS x2
~guaranteed OHKO on Jynx (vs Golem's 50% chance)
~45% chance to KO Tauros with EQ after two Tauros Bodyslams
~18% chance to 2HKO Starmie
~65% chance to 2HKO Victreebel

Defensive:
~48% chance to be 2HKOed by Alakazam Psychic (vs Golem's 78%)
~4% chance to be 2HKOed by Exeggutor Psychic (vs Golem's 26%)

We'll have a look at Substitute's advantages further below.

Let's try to figure out reasons to use Golem over Rhydon:
The special attack is irrelevant. The speed only matters against opposing GolDon, which is not nothing but hardly a reason to really give up the power. The only thing that remains is in fact Explosion.
As many people described, the ground types are there not only to put pressure on the opposing Team by threatening huge physical damage, but also to wall a potential electric type from the opponent. Explosing your Ground type obviously does not help here. Also let's be completetly real here, we are talking about Explosion. Admittedly a good move, but by nature a "hit or miss" move (let's not pretend Boom won't also kill your own Pokemon). Consistency is usually reached throguh other means than relying on "hit or miss" (example: why usually top players won't rely on Wrap to win games). The scenario in which you can just click Explosion and whatever you hit is a win for you is rare and hard to achieve. Not to mention that Golem is not exactly the best choice in RBY if you want a boomer. That is because Golem's Boom is usually "telegraphed" because it is 2HKOed by so many things and also usually Golem does not draw in targets that desperately need to be boomed on to be taken out, especially if you don't know if there is a Zapdos in the back. Other boomers also carry usually more defensive utility than Golem, which adds to them being the better choice. Regardless, I don't want to make Explosion worse than it is, it can be a cruacial move and give you an out to win games and especially further your lead in a game, but consistency is the main issue here, in my opinion.
Combine that with Rhydon's surperiority mentioned above and reasons to use Golem get sparse.

But we are not done yet: We have not even talked about movesets, especially the substitute option. I wanna state that both can theoretically run the move, but Golem has to give up either Body Slam or Rock Slide to do so, and with less reward than Rhydon, because Rhydon's Substitutes live a Seismic Toss, whereas Golem's do not. As opposed to Golem's Explosion, Rhydon's Substitute also agrees with the role of the Ground types, as they are slow but hard physical hitters, which makes them especially effective against paralyzed Teams. Substitute can generate free turns on FP turns that are simply game deciding in some situations while not sacrificing your Pokemon. Don't wanna say Substitute in general is a better move than Explosion, but in this particular case I'm almost inclined to say it kind of is. Also Rhydon is a bit more flexible with movesets actually, possesing options such as Leer or Rest, which Golem is hard pressed to find room for, as stated above.

Finally I wanna talk about the match-ups of the two against both of the defining Pokemon of this metagame: Snorlax and Chansey, more accurately, Reflect Snorlax and Reflect Chansey.
Rhydon has a very high chance to KO Snorlax with 3 EQs if one of them crits through Reflect, which Golem can not claim, but rather needs a crit at the exact right moment or Explode to achieve the KO. Not saying that Rhydon likes the ReflectLax match-up, but it at least can win and if it does it is usually quite game changing.
Reflect Chansey with Seismic Toss is also in Rhydon's favour. Chansey should be paralyzed for both, but in any case Rhydon is likelier to KO the Chansey with a critical hit, despite having the slightly lower CH rate, because it has more attempts due to Substitute surviving the Seismic Toss and 4HKOing in general through Reflect, which makes Chansey have to Soft Boiled more.
Reflect-Normals are simply important match-ups, and Golem has no chance to claim them over Rhydon.

Combine all this and using Golem over Rhydon becomes tough to justify. There surely may be teams that apprecitae Golem's Explosion more than they would appreciate Rhydon, but those are not the norm. (Important thing to note here: using both on the same team is not a good idea, since they stack too many weaknesses, it is bottomline an "either X or Y" decision.)

At the end of the day, Golem was made UU for those reasons, and it makes sense.

 

[Omanyte]

Now, this is a viability rankings thread. I know it seems confusing at first why two very similar Pokemon are that far apart from each other in a ranking. That is because we are not looking at an on-paper power ranking (in which they'd be closer) but rather ask ourselves for every individual Pokemon the question: "How usable is this Pokemon in general in the RBY OU metagame?" (And in the case of Rhydon and Golem also "What reasons are there to use Rhydon/Golem over the other?")

This does clarify some things for me, thank you.
Couple of quick points though:
Firstly, Golem has a better CH rate (if you're claiming bulkier is bulkier than this is also up for consideration?)
Second, is it often a good move for Rhydon to Sub against a Seismic Toss user? Wouldn't EQ almost always be a better option?
Not refuting the main points of your argument though.

 

[Lusch]

This does clarify some things for me, thank you.
Couple of quick points though:
Firstly, Golem has a better CH rate (if you're claiming bulkier is bulkier than this is also up for consideration?)
Second, is it often a good move for Rhydon to Sub against a Seismic Toss user? Wouldn't EQ almost always be a better option?
Not refuting the main points of your argument though.

The CH rate is slightly higher for Golem (8,8% vs Rhydon's 7,8%), but the difference is really not that meaningful. Furthermore when Rhydon crits, usually youare in a position to kill something with it then (example Resting ReflectLax), whereas a Golem crit does not always achieve the same. (Golem can crit a resting Relfectlax but won't kill in time to deny Snorlax resting again, it'll need 2 crits out of 3 attacks). But fair point, yea it should be a factor. Also oftentimes Rhydon can negate that advantage Golem has in the CH rate because it gets more opportunities to fish for a crit. Why? That brings me to your second question. The Pokemon you are critfishing versus usually are able to take a few hits from the Rocks but are not able to threaten much in return (basically we are talking about paralyzed Reflect/Seismic Toss Chansey with Reflect up). Rhydon gets to Sub in between hits and thus gets more chances to go for the crit vs Chansey than Golem would get in that 1v1. Hence in the bigger picture it has actually a better chance to win this MU via a crit than Golem does.
Should you always Sub vs Stoss? Depends. It's usually a good move vs PAR ReflectChansey, but Sub does not block sleep, so if you Sub while the opponent brings in their Exeggutor for example, you still have to run, and lost 25% for nothing.

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

Second, is it often a good move for Rhydon to Sub against a Seismic Toss user? Wouldn't EQ almost always be a better option?

If neither pokemon is paralysed subbing against a ReflectChansey wouldn't help much besides forcing Chansey to use more SToss pp. To illustrate that, let's count the times Chansey needs to use Seismic Toss to make Rhydon faint.
0 Substitutes used - 5 Seismic Toss
4 Substitutes used - 9 Seismic Toss
As we can see, Chansey always needs to attack 5 more times than Substitute was being used. If Chansey is paralysed however, that means there would be more turns Chansey can be fully paralysed.
Of course, if (SToss)Chansey doesn't have Reflect up yet, it would usually be better to directly attack it. Similarly, if Chansey is one full para away from fainting it is better to not use Sub unless you need to beat Chansey with a Sub up for the opponents next pokemon in order to win.

 

[Hardboned]

I'm new to RBY OU so a few questions:

- What makes Porygon viable enough to recieve a D+ Ranking? Its stats always seemed too terrible to be good enough for OU viability.

- What is Hypno's niche? Seems like it'd just be a poor man's Alakazam.

- What does Victreebel offer over Venusaur? Venusaur is faster and bulkier which seems like it'd be nice for Cloyster and a few other matchups.

 

[CalamityGreed]

I'm new to RBY OU so a few questions:

- What makes Porygon viable enough to recieve a D+ Ranking? Its stats always seemed too terrible to be good enough for OU viability.

- What is Hypno's niche? Seems like it'd just be a poor man's Alakazam.

- What does Victreebel offer over Venusaur? Venusaur is faster and bulkier which seems like it'd be nice for Cloyster and a few other matchups.

victreebel gets wrap, sd and hyper beam as well as the other grass type staple moves
hypno serves a very similar role as zam but it gets hypnosis
Porygon idk it prob the sharpen set

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

The main reason Victreebel is used over Venusaur is Wrap. Wrap + Sleep Powder work well together since the paralysed mons that could block sleep can be outsped which makes wrapping them easier. Venusaur also has access to Swords Dance and Hyper Beam.
Porygon walls all Snorlax sets that lack Amnesia or Ice Beam since consecutive crits from Lax are unlikely due to its low speed and Recover has more pp than Body Slam, which can't paralyse Porygon as a normal type.

 

[Sceptross]

The Porygon niche is actually good enough that you could see it used from time to time, hence the rank.

To add to what FOMG said, Victreebel also has considerably higher offenses over Venusaur (makes KOing Chansey after a Swords Dance realistic with some chip from any special move, for instance).

Hypno doesn't get Recover, is slow (outsped by Jynx/Gengar), and despite being bulkier it's not bulky enough to make use of Rest (as a rule of thumb that you can use, if a Pokemon can't wake up against Tauros, it is too frail to Rest). If it could explode, I could see it used over Exeggutor from time to time since having Thunder Wave over Stun Spore is nice, but as is, it is effectively inferior to Exeggutor and/or Alakazam. If we consider tradebacks though, Hypno carves a niche for itself in Amnesia + no weakness, but even then it would be hard to make impact with it because it can't safely Rest, unlike Slowbro and Poliwrath.

 

[Amaranth]

Hypno doesn't get Recover, is slow (outsped by Jynx/Gengar), and despite being bulkier it's not bulky enough to make use of Rest (as a rule of thumb that you can use, if a Pokemon can't wake up against Tauros, it is too frail to Rest). If it could explode, I could see it used over Exeggutor from time to time since having Thunder Wave over Stun Spore is nice, but as is, it is effectively inferior to Exeggutor and/or Alakazam. If we consider tradebacks though, Hypno carves a niche for itself in Amnesia + no weakness, but even then it would be hard to make impact with it because it can't safely Rest, unlike Slowbro and Poliwrath.

bruh moment. people use rest on jynx and you're telling me hypno is not bulky enough

hypno has a niche of having access to sleep move + thunder wave + walling exeggutor. which means that in the match up against twave leads (starmie/alakazam) he gets hypnosis off, probably a thunder wave off too unless you get unlucky or outpredicted several turns in a row, and then sleep blocks very, very reliably for the rest of the game bc exeggutor just cannot break it (d-edge does ~25) and the best he can do is wait for hypno to rest and wake up to trade sleep. no other pokemon in the game is as good as hypno as getting sleep off and then successfully taking sleep - jynx does it pretty well but she's (a) a lot frailer, actually vulnerable to tauros and (b) doesn't get to spread twaves. exeggutor could pull off a similar set but he's weak to blizzard starmie and his paralysis move also has to deal with low accuracy - being good against both starmie and zam plus spreading paralysis is kind of the point of leading hypno, eggy does meh in both

of course hypno has a ton of downsides (hypnosis accuracy, relatively toothless, a bit frailer than you'd like, no recover, no boom, whatever else). but don't call it "effectively inferior" lol, that's straight up false. his niche is very small but it's there and it's pretty notable, he's amazing at setting up slowbro bc he consistently takes the sleep powder bullet for it, matches up beautifully against all leads not named jynx/gengar, and is generally quite good at spreading status all around.

i'm not even claiming that he's fully and properly viable, but he's D rank for heaven's sake, he's fine down there. you make it sound like we're talking about fucking electrode or something

 

[Hardboned]

Interesting. One last question. I know its E Rank but why are Ninetales, Charizard and Rapidash at all considered viable? Seems they'd just be discount Moltres

 

[Eeveeto]

Interesting. One last question. I know its E Rank but why are Ninetales, Charizard and Rapidash at all considered viable? Seems they'd just be discount Moltres

-Not always Moltres can use Agility safely, and both Ninetales and Arcanine are faster than it when unboosted. There are 2 OU Mons than fall between Rapidash and Moltres, those being Jynx and Zapdos (which Ninetales ties with).
-Speaking of which, both Ninetales and Rapidash are not weak to Ice and Electric, so they can take a hit or 2 from Zapdos, Jynx and other Mons who use Ice and Electric Moves.
-Also, the match-up against Starmie is better for Rapidash and Ninetales, since they can Body Slam it on the switch and paralyze it. Meanwhile, Moltres has to hope for the less reliable crits, burns and Fire Spin accuracy in order to defeat the Star. Paralisis also helps the rest of the team in defeating Starmie, whereas burns only help Moltres himself.

As for why they are ranked both, instead of one of them, this is because they have different Stats: Rapidash hits harder on the phisical Side, and outspeeds Zapdos instead of tying with it. It also has the option of using Agility, unlike Ninetales. Meanwhile, Ninetales has higher bulk on both sides, hits harder on the Special one and has access to Confuse Ray to hax even more.

Charizard is pretty bad in my opinion ( I like Ninetales and Rapidash, on the other hand), but it has a pretty wide movepool, namely Earthquake, Slash, Sword Dance and Counter. Charizard too outspeeds Jynx and speedties with Zapdos. This still doesn,t save it from being almost unviable, but still better than unranked Mons like Arcanine and even Magmar ( who I would personally rank in E, as it has a low chance to 2HKO Chansey with Submission).

 

[Hardboned]

-Not always Moltres can use Agility safely, and both Ninetales and Arcanine are faster than it when unboosted. There are 2 OU Mons than fall between Rapidash and Moltres, those being Jynx and Zapdos (which Ninetales ties with).
-Speaking of which, both Ninetales and Rapidash are not weak to Ice and Electric, so they can take a hit or 2 from Zapdos, Jynx and other Mons who use Ice and Electric Moves.
-Also, the match-up against Starmie is better for Rapidash and Ninetales, since they can Body Slam it on the switch and paralyze it. Meanwhile, Moltres has to hope for the less reliable crits, burns and Fire Spin accuracy in order to defeat the Star. Paralisis also helps the rest of the team in defeating Starmie, whereas burns only help Moltres himself.

As for why they are ranked both, instead of one of them, this is because they have different Stats: Rapidash hits harder on the phisical Side, and outspeeds Zapdos instead of tying with it. It also has the option of using Agility, unlike Ninetales. Meanwhile, Ninetales has higher bulk on both sides, hits harder on the Special one and has access to Confuse Ray to hax even more.

Charizard is pretty bad in my opinion ( I like Ninetales and Rapidash, on the other hand), but it has a pretty wide movepool, namely Earthquake, Slash, Sword Dance and Counter. Charizard too outspeeds Jynx and speedties with Zapdos. This still doesn,t save it from being almost unviable, but still better than unranked Mons like Arcanine and even Magmar ( who I would personally rank in E, as it has a low chance to 2HKO Chansey with Submission).

Thanks for the answer.

Personally, I feel like Primeape warrants a ranking due to its higher speed than Machamp, access to Thunderbolt and Rock Slide, and a nice attack stat. It speed ties Jynx and has a few key Pokemon that it outspeeds. Seems like it'd be a decent paralysis sweeper.

Also, an E+ Rank seems like it'd be a good idea (Reserved for E Ranked 'Mons who stand out just noticeably enough). Lastly, I'm surprised something like Golduck isn't ranked in D-. It has higher speed than Slowbro by a lot and it usually can fit an extra attacking move like Blizzard to let it do better against Zapdos and Exeggutor

 

[teal6]

charizard can OHKO jynx on lead which is a legitimate thing i was considering when everyone kept using jynx against me but other than that it's insanely garbage

 

[Hardboned]

charizard can OHKO jynx on lead which is a legitimate thing i was considering when everyone kept using jynx against me but other than that it's insanely garbage

Only with a crit can it OHKO it though. Meanwhile, Ninetales has the same speed, higher Special and can weaken it to be in KO range via Fire Spin.

 

[Sceptross]

bruh moment. people use rest on jynx and you're telling me hypno is not bulky enough

hypno has a niche of having access to sleep move + thunder wave + walling exeggutor. which means that in the match up against twave leads (starmie/alakazam) he gets hypnosis off, probably a thunder wave off too unless you get unlucky or outpredicted several turns in a row, and then sleep blocks very, very reliably for the rest of the game bc exeggutor just cannot break it (d-edge does ~25) and the best he can do is wait for hypno to rest and wake up to trade sleep. no other pokemon in the game is as good as hypno as getting sleep off and then successfully taking sleep - jynx does it pretty well but she's (a) a lot frailer, actually vulnerable to tauros and (b) doesn't get to spread twaves. exeggutor could pull off a similar set but he's weak to blizzard starmie and his paralysis move also has to deal with low accuracy - being good against both starmie and zam plus spreading paralysis is kind of the point of leading hypno, eggy does meh in both

of course hypno has a ton of downsides (hypnosis accuracy, relatively toothless, a bit frailer than you'd like, no recover, no boom, whatever else). but don't call it "effectively inferior" lol, that's straight up false. his niche is very small but it's there and it's pretty notable, he's amazing at setting up slowbro bc he consistently takes the sleep powder bullet for it, matches up beautifully against all leads not named jynx/gengar, and is generally quite good at spreading status all around.

i'm not even claiming that he's fully and properly viable, but he's D rank for heaven's sake, he's fine down there. you make it sound like we're talking about fucking electrode or something

I agree with everything you said, yet I keep almost every word I said (I just checked and apparently it takes BS + HB from Tauros most of the time, something I thought it didn't which makes things better for it for sure, so it can actually Rest semi-safely - albeit it's still hard to wake it up). Also, Exeggutor itself, like you said, can pull off those traits nicely, and still provide other forms of support (checking rocks, more often than not force an Explosion mindgame despite not having it). Being the only Pokemon that resists Earthquake and is not murdered by Rock Slide in the metagame is a very valuable niche by itself.

Effectively is different from strictly. I think we can agree there is little reason to use Hypno over Exeggutor (emphasis on little), which is what I meant. Every Pokemon has its obscure niches, including Electrode, like you mentioned (guaranteed twave + almost always a second one + explosion that despite being weak, crits almost 30% of the time).

bruh moment. people use rest on jynx and you're telling me hypno is not bulky enough

Waking up Jynx comes at a cost though. Everytime it burns one sleep counter, Tauros is clicking Body Slam for free. So it will get 1-2 free Slams and oftentimes waking up on sleep powder (serving as a sleep clause activator, but effectively doing nothing other than that for the rest of the game). Waking up Pokes in RBY comes at an expensive cost, because of how hard it is switching in on Tauros. That's why I'm often hesitant to use Rest on stuff that gets 1v1'd by Tauros during the free turns it gives it.

i'm not even claiming that he's fully and properly viable, but he's D rank for heaven's sake, he's fine down there. you make it sound like we're talking about fucking electrode or something

I 100% agree with the D rank it is in. It is not a bad poke, there are just better options. I could have elaborated more (I guess I didn't put much effort into writing it, which I blame on writing it at almost 4am), but I feel my message captures the overall place of Hypno in the metagame. And the truth is, while you did point out a niche for it, it is a bit of an obscure one, and Exeggutor can also pull it (even if worse, it has other traits to bring to the team that are very rare in the RBY metagame).

Just as a note, there's no need to go that agressive with me. As far as I know, I haven't done anything to you, so I think being so harsh is uncalled for.

 

[Amaranth]

Just as a note, there's no need to go that agressive with me. As far as I know, I haven't done anything to you, so I think being so harsh is uncalled for.

i have strong opinions about hypno, my bad

 

[Hardboned]

I'm back again, and I know it may be tedious, but has anyone considered adding names to this ranking? It'd be easier to CTRL+F around to see which rank a 'Mon is in without wasting your time by skimming your eyes around

 

[Hardboned]

Also, someone please change Jynx's pic to the correct sprite, my OCD is having a field day

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

I added the names. I know it's not the correct sprite but for now the Jynx sprite will stay. We have a :jynx: emoji that overwrites what is supposed to be the normal sprite that you get when you type :pokemon name:. I can't promise anything but I hope the emoji name gets changed eventually so we get the actual Jynx sprite.

 

[Ruft]

I added the names. I know it's not the correct sprite but for now the Jynx sprite will stay. We have a :jynx: emoji that overwrites what is supposed to be the normal sprite that you get when you type :pokemon name:. I can't promise anything but I hope the emoji name gets changed eventually so we get the actual Jynx sprite.

You could add it manually:

 

[Hardboned]

Even though I did recently say Golduck should be higher, I am now going to reverse it and say its odd that its even viable. Bar the speed, Golduck doesn't seem very viable as Slowbro's only disadvantage (speed) is pretty invalid when you factor in paralysis that 'Bro itself can spread via T. Wave. Even Poliwrath seems like a better choice due to Hypnosis and Submission

 

[Eeveeto]

Even though I did recently say Golduck should be higher, I am now going to reverse it and say its odd that its even viable. Bar the speed, Golduck doesn't seem very viable as Slowbro's only disadvantage (speed) is pretty invalid when you factor in paralysis that 'Bro itself can spread via T. Wave. Even Poliwrath seems like a better choice due to Hypnosis and Submission

I agree that both Slowbro and Poliwrath are better, but Golduck still has a good niche.
-The Speed matters, since Golduck outspeeds Victreebel, Venusaur and Dragonite without the need to paralyze them. Also higher crit rate.
- Golduck also has higher special than Poliwrath and unlike Slowbro it gets Hydropump, meaning that is the only one of the 3 that has a reasonable chance (53,8% without factoring misses) to 2HKO Chansey at +4 without suiciding with Submission.
-Its also the best against Exeggutor, since it will be forced to explode, instead of fishing for a crit with Megadrain against Slowbro or Psychic (that can also drop special) against Poliwrath.
-Its not weak to Psychic like Poliwrath and it kills Starmie faster than Slowbro does, thanks to, yet again, Hydropump.
-Like Slowbro, and unlike Poliwrath , it has a small (15,8%) chance to 2HKO Snorlax at +2 with Surf, without the need to use a non-accurate move.


Its still a pretty bad Mon, but a solution that I have found to use it succesfully is pairing it with Slowbro and other paralyzing Mons. Slowbro and Golduck share counters, so Slowbro paralyzes them and weakens them a little with Surf or even Psychic if you are that guy. Then Golduck comes later in the game and wrecks those counters with Hydro Pump and Blizzard.

So, no, E rank is good for Golduck, no rise is deserved, but neither is a drop.