Lower Tiers RBY PU Hub

do any of you think that slowpoke has potential as a setup nidoqueen counter? at +2 spc slowpoke's psychic, surf, and blizzard all have 100% chance to 2hko, and, even though slowpoke is slow, slowpoke has okay-ish bulk. plus, having access to psychic, especially stab psychic, is useful, and amnesia's always great.

alternatively, seaking has access to stab surf, which should 2hko 100% of the time. not only that, seaking as pretty decent bulk, too, and good ice type moves in the form of blizzard and ice beam.

any thoughts? haven't gotten the opportunity to try any of these, yet, but in theory they seem sound.
 
this looks super interesting so far. is there a discord or something similar for it? i'd love to be able to play this somewhat regularly with other people, testing out teams and movesets and whatnot. in-development metagames are always really interesting.
There's a PU channel in the RBY Discord. That's your best bet if you want to discuss PU.

do any of you think that slowpoke has potential as a setup nidoqueen counter? at +2 spc slowpoke's psychic, surf, and blizzard all have 100% chance to 2hko, and, even though slowpoke is slow, slowpoke has okay-ish bulk. plus, having access to psychic, especially stab psychic, is useful, and amnesia's always great.

alternatively, seaking has access to stab surf, which should 2hko 100% of the time. not only that, seaking as pretty decent bulk, too, and good ice type moves in the form of blizzard and ice beam.

any thoughts? haven't gotten the opportunity to try any of these, yet, but in theory they seem sound.
Slowpoke struggles to switch into Nidoqueen. It takes a minimum of 32% from EQ and a minimum of 50% from thunderbolt. This means Slowpoke can't switch into Nidoqueen's earthquake because then it gets 2hkoed by thunderbolt, even if it boosts with amnesia on the turn after it switches in. It can't even paralyze Nidoqueen since it's a ground type. Seaking suffers the same problem, it gets 3hkoed by Nidoqueen and is outsped. This means it can't switch in and beat it 1-on-1. This is why Nidoqueen is so good. There are some Pokemon that can beat it 1-on-1, but very few can switch in and then proceed to beat it. One of the best Nidoqueen checks is Machamp, since it gets 4hkoed by Earthquake but can 2hko it with its own Earthquake.
 
There's a PU channel in the RBY Discord. That's your best bet if you want to discuss PU.


Slowpoke struggles to switch into Nidoqueen. It takes a minimum of 32% from EQ and a minimum of 50% from thunderbolt. This means Slowpoke can't switch into Nidoqueen's earthquake because then it gets 2hkoed by thunderbolt, even if it boosts with amnesia on the turn after it switches in. It can't even paralyze Nidoqueen since it's a ground type. Seaking suffers the same problem, it gets 3hkoed by Nidoqueen and is outsped. This means it can't switch in and beat it 1-on-1. This is why Nidoqueen is so good. There are some Pokemon that can beat it 1-on-1, but very few can switch in and then proceed to beat it. One of the best Nidoqueen checks is Machamp, since it gets 4hkoed by Earthquake but can 2hko it with its own Earthquake.
oh, interesting. i was thinking of sacking a pokemon in order to get the free switch, but then again, that requires sacking a pokemon. thanks for linking the discord! :)
 
:rb/nidoqueen: :rb/rapidash: RBY PU Teambuilding Guide :rb/seaking: :rb/omanyte:
Hey! Do you want to learn how to build teams for PU? Well here's a step-by-step process on how I approach my teambuilding, and how I constructed three teams for RBY PU.

:nidoqueen:1. Big... 2?:rapidash:
Nidoqueen is the best mon in the tier by a wide margin, and should be on every serious PU team. It has incredible stats and an incredible movepool in the tier. STAB Earthquake hits like a truck, and if you think you can fly like a Fearow above the ground, you're going to end up taking a Blizzard instead. Nidoqueen shows up on the battlefield and just deletes Pokemon. The other "mandatory" pokemon is Rapidash. The resason why Rapidash is "mandatory" in my opinion is that it's incredibly fast and the best fire-type in the tier. There's no reason not to run Rapidash. It's strong and fast, both as a physical and special attacker. It's arguably the best lead in the tier too. Because of this, most RBY PU teams should start with this: https://pokepast.es/d2997b249abf440c. Your choice of moves depend on the team. I typically use Toxic on Rapidash on less paralysis-based teams but drop it in favor of 2 physical moves when the team is more focused on paralysis, since poison blocks things from being paralyzed. For Nidoqueen, I typically run Substitute when my team has a good matchup against Pinsir, since Pinsir is the best check to non-Fire Blast Nidoqueen. For example, on teams with multiple fire types, or teams with Fearow, I'll typically be running Sub. Fire Blast is used when I'm a little bit Pinsir Weak, since having Nidoqueen beat Pinsir would be helpful with the weak matchup.

:seaking:2. Win Condition:fearow:
Now that we've got the required stuff out of the way, we can have some freedom! Let's start with our Win Condition. The Win Condition is typically what I try to build around, and is often the third Pokemon I slap on after Nidoqueen and Rapidash. The Win Condition in PU is typically a fast mon due to the offensive nature of the tier. For example, Amnesia Slowpoke isn't a good win condition unlike it's older brother in OU, since it'll have more difficulty setting up since the tier is so much more offensive. Below are a list of win conditions, semi-ordered by viability.

:seaking:- Seaking is great because it already has a really good matchup against Nidoqueen and Rapidash. Once it sets up Agility, it outspeeds everything and shreds through anything that's not a water type. However, it does struggle against the water types in the tier. It loses hard to Staryu and a 1v1 with the opposing Seaking can get Seaking low enough for your opponents' teammates to finish it off. Also, Seaking does have to watch out for Vileplume since Blizzard almost never 2HKOs.

:fearow:- Absolute Physical Powerhouse. To win with Fearow, your goal should be to kill all the rock types, and weaken Nidoqueen and Rapidash enough where Fearow can OHKO them. Fearow can also use Nidoqueen's own blizzards against it with Mirror Move. Fearow is amazing at cleaning up weakened teams, but it does have to watch out for rocks. Fearow also struggles against healthy teams since it has a bad defensive typing and stats.

:arcanine::magmar:- A unique win condition is firespam, in which other fire types are used alongside Rapidash in order to break through their shared checks. Together, the fire types can easily overwhelm the opposing Nidoqueen and Rapidash, and could even be too much to handle for opposing water types. The main roadblock to these teams is Omanyte due to its quad resistance to fire and resistance to normal, which you'll typically need team support to break. When using firespam, you typically want to make one of the other fires your lead to preserve Rapidash for the late game.

:pinsir:- Pinsir uses Swords Dance to boost its attack and break through the tier. It's a pure physical attacker similar to Fearow. Pinsir's pure-bug typing makes it a decent Nidoqueen Switch-in, and submission means it's not walled by the rocks like Fearow is. However, it lacks immediate power and STAB. In addition, it is completely walled by the rare Gastly. Pinsir does have bind though, so it's able to chip opponents into Hyper Beam KO range.

:abra:- Since most Psychic types live in the higher tiers, Abra's STAB Psychic coming off of 105 base special is nearly unresisted. This makes Abra the resident Nuke in PU. However, Abra dies as quickly as it can kill things. Rapidash, Arcanine, and Fearow all outspeed it and OHKO it with Hyper Beam. Also, Abra does have to run away from Drowzee, and an abra ditto typically results in a thunder wave trade, making both Abras effectively useless.

:sandslash:- Another Swords Dancer. Unlike Pinsir it's immune to Paralysis, and has perfect coverage in the form of earthquake/rock slide. It can even use Substitute thanks to its ground typing. However, Sandslash is much slower. Pinsir outspeeds Nidoqueen and Seaking, while Sandslash doesn't. This means Sandslash requires a lot more paralysis support compared to Pinsir.

:poliwag:- Poliwag is walmart NU Poliwhirl. Its stats are terrible except for speed. However, it does have Amnesia. Unlike Slowpoke, its speed makes it a threatening sweeper, but its so frail that it typically can't boost more than once. Your best bet is against a sleeping Pokemon or something that can't really touch Poliwag like Omanyte (although omanyte can paralyze). Overall though, I think Poliwag is very mediocre as a sweeper.

:electrode:- Electrode is... interesting. Every team has Nidoqueen, and as a result every team has something that walls it. However, once Nidoqueen and all other grounds are dead, Electrode becomes a menace. It's the only Pokemon that outspeeds Rapidash in the tier, and electric STAB is as great as it's always been. However, being completely walled by ground types does hold it back a ton.

:scyther:- Last and Least is Scyther. Just like Poliwag is walmart NU Poliwhirl, Scyther is just Walmart Pinsir. It's faster and is able to actually touch Gastly (although it's with the incredibly weak Wing Attack), but apart from that it's just worse. It's weaker than Pinsir, and trades being able to touch Gastly for not being able to touch the rock types, which are much more common than the ghost.

Here is a set dump for the win conditions: https://pokepast.es/108290c54c2a4811

:omanyte:3. Defense:machamp:
Despite being a very offensive tier, PU has good defensive Pokemon as well. These Pokemon are meant to stop the aforementioned win conditions from making progress. We already have at least three Pokemon on our team by now, but all of these Pokemon lean on the offensive side. We need bulky mons in order to balance out our team. Rest isn't that viable of option in PU though, so most of these mons are bulky based on stats alone. They are again loosely ordered by Viability.

:staryu:- RECOVER is what makes Staryu good. I already mentioned rest is bad, meaning Staryu is the only Pokemon in all of PU with access to Recover, giving it insane longevity. Staryu's pure water typing also makes it a really good check to fires and waters. The issues with Staryu arise when you realize that its stats are awful. Even though it outspeeds Nidoqueen, can recover off damage, and hit it super effectively, its stats are so bad it loses the 1v1. It can spam recover but once Nidoqueen crits once Staryu's dead.

:omanyte:- Best fire counter in the tier, Rapidash and Arcanine can't touch Omanyte, and although Magmar can hurt Omanyte, it still loses 1-on-1. Omanyte also checks the deadly Fearow. However, Omanyte is the only water type that doesn't resist water, making it a less reliable check to Seaking than other water types.

:graveler:- Do you want a worse fire matchup in return for a better matchup against Fearow and the ability to check Electrode? Then Graveler is for you! It's a "physical Omanyte" in a way, which does mean it hates getting burned more, but this also means it has higher defense to deal with Fearow. It loses hard to waters though. Graveler's high attack stat also gives it a very threatening STAB Earthquake. Omanyte is generally considered "better" since the fires are extremely deadly, but Graveler is still a very good option.

:machamp:- Best Nidoqueen check in the tier, and... that's it. It is 4hkoed by Nidoqueen's Earthquake while 2hkoing it in return, meaning it can switch into and then beat Nidoqueen. Machamp doesn't really offer much defensively apart from that. Best it can do is paralyze things with Body Slam which could be useful, but Machamp's ability to beat the best Pokemon in the tier is incredible.

:drowzee::slowpoke:- Slotting these two together because they're both defensive Psychic types. They stop abra in its tracks and both have Thunder Wave to scare it away. Drowzee has access to Hypnosis and better special attack/bulk, while Slowpoke has a water typing, Amnesia, which it honestly doesn't use that much, and better physical bulk. They both also have STAB Psychics which hit Nidoqueen quite hard.

:onix:- Last and least yet again is Onix. Onix sacrifices all the offensive power that Graveler has for extra speed and bind. Bind could be useful for pivoting into other Pokemon. For example Onix could switch into Fearow, use bind on the Seaking that switches in, and pivot into Staryu to beat Seaking. However, Onix is extremely weak and specially frail. It gets OHKOed by Nidoqueen's Blizzard, but even if it survived its stab Earthquake would only do a maximum of 46.9%. Onix is so pathetic that a 100 base power super effective STAB move doesn't even 2hko Nidoqueen. For comparison, Graveler always survives Blizzard and does up to 70.4% with Earthquake!

Here is the set dump for defensive mons: https://pokepast.es/6989754d53744907

:vileplume:4. Support:dragonair:

Some Pokemon don't really contribute offensively or defensively. They're not very strong or very bulky. What they do instead, is provide a lot of support for your teammates, mainly through status.

:vileplume:- Vileplume is probably how you're gonna be ending up dishing out sleep. It's the safest sleeper because it's the bulkiest, meaning it has the most chances to fire off sleep powder until it hits. Vileplume can even switch into Nidoqueen, surviving Earthquake into Blizzard, meaning it can go for the 75% chance to put the tier queen to sleep. Even if Vileplume has already slept something, it can spread paralysis with stun spore, or body slam if you want to do damage at the same time. It also has mega drain which lets it scare away rock types, all of which are 4x weak.

:dragonair:- AgiliWrap is bad in PU in my opinion. Most teams have a rock, and every team has a fire blast user. Dragonair is better used as a status spreader and pivot, using Thunder Wave and wrap to paralyze then switch into teammates that appreciate their foes being paralyzed, such as Nidoqueen. Dragonair also has great coverage options, such as Blizzard to scare away the twave-immune Ground Types.

:gastly: - An alternative to Vileplume if you feel like it. Gastly can also switch into Fearow's Double-Edge and scare it away with Thunderbolt, although Gastly itself is scared of Drill Peck. Gastly also has great coverage. Psychic for Nidoqueen, and Mega Drain for Rock types. However, Gastly is incredibly frail, meaning if you miss Hypnosis you die. Because of this, Vileplume is generally considered the superior option.

Set dump for support mons: https://pokepast.es/dc9d468b4073a8b0

:arcanine:5. The Final Pokemon:pinsir:
So what you have so far is Nidoqueen, Rapidash, a Win Condition, and 1 or 2 defensive or support mons. This means you have 1-2 spots left on your team. At this point you have to ask yourself "what is my team missing?" Figure out what your team is weak to and patch up the hole. If you're weak to Seaking, slap on a Staryu. If you're weak to fires, slap on an Omanyte. If you can't defeat the opposing Graveler, add a Seaking. Figure out what your team lacks and add a Pokemon accordingly.

:magmar:6. Building Three Teams:graveler:
Using what I said above, I'm going to build three teams that show this teambuilding Process below. The first team is very standard, while the other two are more creative.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/fearow:
Every team is going to start with Rapidash and Nidoqueen, and the Win Condition I want to build around is Fearow.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/fearow::rb/omanyte:
Since Fearow hates being burned, It's important that the defensive mon helps deal with fire types. Because of this, I chose Omanyte. Omanyte can also kill Graveler and Onix which will help Fearow out.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/fearow::rb/omanyte::rb/vileplume:
I want sleep on this team, and vileplume is the best option for sleep. Vileplume also helps check water types that Omanyte struggles with (although this is not perfect since it's weak to blizzard)

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/fearow::rb/omanyte::rb/vileplume::rb/seaking:
For the sixth mon, I saw that we're pretty weak to opposing Seaking, since it blasts through most of this team. I also may have trouble dealing with opposing Omanyte, since it stops fearow in its tracks. Seaking helps deal with both of these, while also providing a second Win Condition if Fearow fails. Fearow can help weaken opposing waters for Seaking to clean up as well.

Final Team: https://pokepast.es/c9bc2b7d59fefffa
:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/magmar:
I wanted to try Firespam this time, and opted for Magmar over Arcanine as my fire type. There's no real reason why I did this, it's just I wanted to build around Magmar. I chose to keep Rapidash as my lead since Magmar's coverage would come in handy later, and leading with it would risk it being paralyzed.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/magmar::rb/staryu:
The most obvious weakness to this team so far is water types, mainly seaking. Staryu is an amazing check to water types since it can recover off damage, resist both surf and blizzard, and threaten with thunderbolt, making it an easy addition to this team.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/magmar::rb/staryu::rb/drowzee:
Since I'm not running Omanyte, I have to be a little afraid of fire. If I face another firespam team, and my Rapidash and Magmar are overwhelmed, there's a good chance I could just lose. This is why I'm opting to run Drowzee as my sleeper over Vileplume. Psychic also helps weaken Nidoqueen for the fires to clean up.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/magmar::rb/staryu::rb/drowzee::rb/graveler:
This team's weakness is physical attackers. We have a lot of special bulk in staryu and drowzee, but we're lacking physical bulk. Because of this, I'm running Graveler as my sixth, to add physical power to this team. Graveler can also take on opposing Graveler, and if it loses Magmar can finish it off.

Final Team: https://pokepast.es/e560abd10e1fbd4b
:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/abra:
For the final team, I opted for Abra to be my win condition.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/abra::rb/onix:
Abra is insanely powerful but insanely frail. It gets ohkoed by a ton of physical moves, even if they don't have STAB. Because of this, Abra needs a physically defensive partner, either Onix or Graveler. I opted for Onix this time because it helps the physically frail Abra get free switches with bind.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/abra::rb/onix::rb/vileplume:
For sleep this time, I opted for Vileplume again. Vileplume once again helps deal with water types to an extent, and Onix is there to switch into vileplume's threats such as Fearow.

:rb/rapidash::rb/nidoqueen::rb/abra::rb/onix::rb/vileplume::rb/seaking:
We're once again weak to water, so we need a way to fight them. The weakness isn't as bad this time since Abra can overwhelm them with offensive power, so I chose Seaking as my sixth. Seaking can fight off waters, but can't hold them off forever like Staryu, but the thing is it doesn't have to, and considering Seaking is an overall better Pokemon, I chose to use it.

Final Team: https://pokepast.es/ef39093a24451ae7

Wow that took a while to make! I really hope you find this guide helpful. It honestly helped me out too even though I wrote it. It let me put all my thoughts of the metagame into writing, and I even revamped the Magmar + Staryu team because I took my own advice! Overall, I hope this made you a better team builder, and I hope to see you in the upcoming PU tournament!
 
Last edited:
Nido, Rapidash, Water that matches well into the Rapidash/Arcanine, Ground resist/immunity, Speed control, extra depending on what you need. Teams that dont have the first 5 minimum are normally going to be bad or subpar for different reasons. Think stuff like Onix, Gastly, Staryu are pretty bad and like all the other lower RBY tiers loading the top end stuff is the only thing you need. Scyther is also a meme and I think Graveler is being a bit underrated, anything that can switch into Fearow + Fires comfortably will normally be good.
 
This tier is cool: name a move that is relevant to the game of RBY and I'll find a pokemon that uses it. Landing sleep inducing moves is way harder than it is in RBY OU, and this is a good thing. Even more, at least at this stage, you can pick a pokemon out of a pool of 25 to possibly 35 and fit it into a team without looking like a fool. Granted, some picks are mandatory and you need to check some conditions when building but they don't look extremely oppressive. On the other hand, switching into attack isn't easy at all.
Amnesia, AgiliWrap and Swords Dance look scary, but I have seen very little of them in action. Amnesia users might be underrated.
Considering I have basically no experience (I don't even know the number of hits to KO for every pokemon) I'll try to contribute with some thoughts and rankings. At least you're going to appreciate the effort, then we'll find out how far I will end up from truth.

S+:
1668598531600.png
is the Tauros of the tier: its attacks are inevitable. But it's not as good due to speed, it can be outsped. CH rate also isn't quite the same and Fire Blast burns can slow it down. I like Substitute (and I don't understand Rock Slide).
Clear number one, it also wins a good number of one vs one matchups (loses to Staryu, Seaking, Abra, Machamp, Pinsir; could lose against Drowzee and Dragonair). Dittos are cruel.

S:
1668598573194.png
is very dangerous even though accuracy sucks. Fire Blast/Spin, Body Slam and Hyper Beam with good speed and CH rate, many players will sign up. Toxic also is an option to help against Omanyte and other Rapidash (making them pay for using Fire Spin), but I wouldn't drop Body Slam. Maybe Arcanine and Fearow have more room for Toxic.

S-
1668598665297.png
is #3, it isn't always used but you could make a case for it to be. Solid and its moves are quite inevitable. It also has room for Agility, unlike other pokemon, even though Hyper Beam can be very useful sometimes.
1668598715635.png
Rapidash2 has great stats but it doesn't learn Fire Spin. It can switch into Fire Blast and unleash the Body Slam + Hyper Beam antics, or use Toxic on Omanyte to make things easier for Rapidash.

A+:
1668598762265.png
best rock in the tier. It takes little damage from Fire-Types and Fearow, but its offense looks weak and relies heavily on paraslams. Fire Blast burns and Toxic happen, and I'm not sure the tier allows you to use Rest a lot even though Omanyte is the one who can make that happen. It's the slowest thing ever, and at first glance it relies on getting a hit off through Fire Spin misses. That's coming from a good special stat though, Surf is like 50% to OHKO Sandslash to give an idea. Hydro Pump anyone?
The whole thing about Omastar is that it's extremely important for the tier because it prevents Scyther (and Pinsir, to a lesser degree) from being degenerated, while also being great against Fearow and good against Fire-Types. I don't think you desperately need it to beat the latter two though, so you don't need to use it every single time. My S-ranked pokemon have better win rates.
1668598776440.png
is damn fast and hits hard. It usually goes down in two hits so it looks different from Zapdos, who can be a pest when not walled. Switching into EQ is nice, but it needs a crit to beat Nidoqueen anyway. Traits for a great late game cleaner.

A-:
1668598918670.png
is bulky enough to belong to many teams. It doesn't look happy to switch into attacks, but it will defend itself against any opponent when it's fresh and goes one vs one. I'm a bit surprised to have basic pokemon ranked so high but Thunder Wave makes miracles. Using sleep moves in this tier is hard and Drowzee's speed doesn't help him, maybe it can try its luck against Omanyte.
1668598939164.png
is a tough call. It's great when unstatused, it sucks when para'd. I assume it's going to be Surf/Thunderbolt even though some are going to use Psychic. I like the fact that it checks pretty much everything when it's unstatused, with its opponents desperately fishing for critical hits or paraslams, and the only pokemon that can switch into it safely multiple times are Grass-Types (Vileplume and Parasect have basically no offese other than sleep&stun, Weepinbell is basically KO'd by TWave even though it will OHKO with Razor Leaf if it connects and if it doesn't overpredict).
1668599073066.png
is a Scyther who got tempered with wisdom: it has better stats and Submission to hit Rock-Types; it isn't weak to Blizzard. Decent speed and damage output with Slash but it looks like the matchup with Nidoqueen is the thing that is really saving it: it takes very little damage from EQ and after that it can take 2 Blizzards (that will KO Scyther instead).
It shined in the few games it was used in, during the early stages of the tournament. Honestly I didn't see this coming. Staryu and Drowzee are being used way more so I still feel comfortable ranking them higher than Pinsir.
Moveset looks tricky, I think you want Slash and Submission, with SD and HB. I'm not on the Bind train.
General consensus is that Seismic Toss (specific for Gastly) is not even going to be considered.
1668599203612.png
has the combination of speed, Hypnosis and Amnesia, which is scary. It can outplay Seaking with the notorious Hypnosis into Amnesia sequence, after switching into Surf or coming in on a predicted switch or as a revenge killer. Other than that, it looks like something that doesn't want to switch into any attack. +2 Hydro Pump OHKOs Fire-Types but Poliwag doesn't look like a lead, I'd rather bring it out later.
To me it looks the best pokemon with a sleep inducing move but I might be too high on it: paralysis is terrible and Poliwag is so weak that it loses 1 vs 1 to Fire Types, not to mention that Fearow is faster and HB is a OHKO one third of the times. I need to see (or play) more games with it: I love its potential but I need to know better to rank it higher even though I am very tempted to.
1668599354902.png
looks unexciting to me because its offense other than Sleep&Stun is so pathetic, but it turns out it has decent usage and wins roughly half of the games it's used in. Maybe Sleep&Stun is enough.
Walling Staryu is nice and Vileplume is bulky in general, but it also has weaknesses. Speed isn't great. I think it's putting up decent performances because Vileplume is the way players are getting sleep off, so I don't see it getting better. It can only go down as soon as we figure other ways to get the sleep IMO. Poliwag/Gastly/Drowzee, arguably in this specific order.
1668599383739.png
is the slow, bulkier version of Poliwag and it uses TWave instead of Hypnosis. I'm not sure it can use Rest with things like Nidoqueen, Fearow, Pinsir or Machamp coming in, so running both Psychic and Surf looks reasonable to me. I predict it to be a respectable threat.

B:
1668599666611.png
I had it listed lower initially, but I think that was wrong. It can do nasty things with AgiliWrap while being also a decent hit and runner if you need just a little contribution to secure the win. However, it's definitely not as threatening as Dragonite is in OU and finding an opening for Agility (without the risk of getting statused) isn't easy. Dragonair can use its normal speed with Agility as a backup in case it gets para'd.
Moveset is up for debate: Wrap, Surf and two of Agility, TWave and Thunderbolt.
It looks like Hyper Beam is good only when facing Abra or Drowzee. I'm going to stress once more that TWave is a great button in this tier.
I think you have to live with not being able to finish against Vileplume because Surf is better than Blizzard.
1668599424912.png
I need to see more action from it. It doesn't get used a lot but it has the traits to be a great revenge killer and possibly even more, even though it can't switch into attacks.
Extremely threatening but it gets OHKO'd by Hyper Beams, and there are faster pokemon (Fire-Types, Fearow, Scyther).
1668599442284.png
is the only pokemon that can take 3 EQs from Nidoqueen and live to tell the story (unless max rolls or crits happen). On paper it's great but if Fearow is kept under control by its weaknesses, Machamp is kept under control by its speed. It should also beat Seaking more often than not, Fire-Types need a Fire Blast burn.
1668599516091.png
some players use it but I don't like Psychic nor SToss, moves that look quite specific for Omanyte to me. Confuse Ray can be good sometimes, but I like Rapidash and Arcanine better. It can get OHKO'd by Sandslash and Graveler, and very often by +2 Hyper Beams (Rapidash and Arcanine can take it).

C:
1668599624401.png
is an even trickier call than Staryu, it looks extremely hit or miss depending on predictions. It loses many one on ones, most notably Nidoqueen and Fire-Types, but it does great against Water-Types, especially Amnesia users.
Anyway, you need to stay away from TWave and you also need to predict a switching in Nidoqueen by using Psychic instead of Thunderbolt.
1668599575477.png
I don't think Graveler wants to switch into Fire Blast, my take is that you answer Fire-types with your own, and you want to paraslam them. Toxic isn't much of a problem because, unlike Omanyte, Graveler can hit hard. Graveler fails the Nidoqueen test, is slow and suffers some OHKOs.
Sure, it checks Fire-Types damn well, denying Fire Spin, and it helps a lot against Fearow. It can do good things if you can get it into the battlefield for free (maybe with a trapping move) and you can bail him out against Nidoqueen and Water moves.
1668599930323.png
potentially is the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. However, it can get OHKO'd by Rapidash/Arcanine and it's walled by Omanyte, Graveler and Gastly. Other than that it needs little setup to sweep entire teams. Scyther looks great on paper but reality is a different thing. It still looks underrated to me though.
1668604689173.png
Sure, it's frail and Nidoqueen 2HKOs it (Vileplume can take 2 hits) but Weepinbell has some offense other than Sleep&Stun: Wrap means that you have the upper hand against para'd Fire-Types and Razor Leaf can force Water-Types out, making Stun Spore better.
1668601886118.png
I like Machamp better. Primeape is faster but it's significantly worse against Nidoqueen and Fire-Types.
1668601896309.png
Another pokemon that fails the Nidoqueen test, while being naturally weak to Water and also not in a nice spot against unstatused Fire-Types.

D:
1668602479613.png
doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire and Water types. Decent bulk (it can check Seaking), but good part of its game revolves around hitting good targets with Explosion. Mega Drain saves it from being walled by Rocks.
1668602083931.png
I don't like being walled by Nidoqueen. Things can only get worse with Graveler or possibly Vileplume.
1668601951779.png
Nobody talks about it because it's a worse Fearow (no Drill Peck and unfavorable stats) and nobody uses both, but I'll mention it here.
1668601987678.png
is damn slow, I have seen little from it and I wouldn't rule it out yet.
1668602005474.png
has Sleep&Stun and can push some damage, it just needs to find an opening. Its speed (most notably, being outsped by Nidoqueen) condemns it to mediocrity.
1668602023226.png
has great stats but it's too slow. Maybe it could do good things but I like the other Fire-Types (even Magmar) better because they deal better with Nidoqueen, Water-Types and Scyther.
1668602039676.png
has Glare, Wrap and decent speed but it can't beat any of the top threats (Nidoqueen, Fire-Types, Water-Types) in a pure one on one. Stats are quite similar to Dragonair's, who looks like the better version of it.
1668602095986.png
is quite similar to Vileplume but it's way weaker to special attacks, and slower.
1668602112211.png
It looks like a lesser Muk, which isn't spectacular to start with. It doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire types. It looks like Explosion and Thunderbolt are all it can offer, and Muk's Explosion is better.
1668602168722.png
I'd just use Graveler. Onix is faster and has Bind but damage output is too low and it gets OHKO'd by Nidoqueen's Blizzard.

E:
1668602127568.png
I'd pick Electrode instead.
1668602185009.png
At first I thought it could at least learn Earthquake, it turns out it can't even do that. Not that it would help its case.
1668602261451.png
1668602386852.png
1668602408615.png
1668602420990.png
too weak, I don't think they belong. They need to evolve.
1668602235007.png
1668602212807.png
the way Fighting-Types always got disrespected in gen1, whether it was the cartridge game or trading cards, makes me sick to my stomach. To this very day. I needed to get this off my chest.
 
Last edited:
1668599354902.png
looks unexciting to me because its offense other than Sleep&Stun is so pathetic, but it turns out it has decent usage and wins roughly half of the games it's used in. Maybe Sleep&Stun is enough.
Walling Staryu is nice and Vileplume is bulky in general, but it also has weaknesses. Speed isn't great. I think it's putting up decent performances because Vileplume is the way players are getting sleep off, so I don't see it getting better. It can only go down as soon as we figure other ways to get the sleep IMO. Poliwag/Gastly/Drowzee, arguably in this specific order.

(I know you said that Vileplume can only go down but I'm just using this as a way to vent my frustration at it's absurdly high usage.)

I think you're significantly overrating Vileplume here. Just because it has high usage doesn't make it good (see Rhyhorn in 7u, That thing had crazy high usage in early rounds.) Most usage comes from the fact that it's on most of the sample teams provided. I've discussed with the person who created them and they agreed with me that they were outdated.

But besides not getting 2HKO by Nidoqueen, what does Vileplume do that makes it better than every other sleeper?
  • Drowzee has STAB Psychic and can switch into to other psychics.
  • Gastly is the fastest sleep inducer and has a great move pool.
  • Weepinbell is basically just objectively better than Vileplume in every way besides bulk. It's faster, has access to Razor Leaf, and doesn't fold instantly to paralyzed fires because it has Wrap.
The only use case that Vileplume has is if you need a sleeper and your team is particularly weak to Nidoqueen. But even then I would still hesitate to use it because it just has no offensive pressure at all. The same applies to Omanyte but that's a discussion for another day.
 
(I know you said that Vileplume can only go down but I'm just using this as a way to vent my frustration at it's absurdly high usage.)

I think you're significantly overrating Vileplume here. Just because it has high usage doesn't make it good (see Rhyhorn in 7u, That thing had crazy high usage in early rounds.) Most usage comes from the fact that it's on most of the sample teams provided. I've discussed with the person who created them and they agreed with me that they were outdated.

But besides not getting 2HKO by Nidoqueen, what does Vileplume do that makes it better than every other sleeper?
  • Drowzee has STAB Psychic and can switch into to other psychics.
  • Gastly is the fastest sleep inducer and has a great move pool.
  • Weepinbell is basically just objectively better than Vileplume in every way besides bulk. It's faster, has access to Razor Leaf, and doesn't fold instantly to paralyzed fires because it has Wrap.
The only use case that Vileplume has is if you need a sleeper and your team is particularly weak to Nidoqueen. But even then I would still hesitate to use it because it just has no offensive pressure at all. The same applies to Omanyte but that's a discussion for another day.
I agree, both are putrid offensively and I personally don't like them. I have Drowzee at number 7 and Poliwag at number 10 (and potentially higher than that). I like Weepinbell better but my rankings factor more things than my personal opinion. We need more games.
Yeah, sample teams might have played a major role. Still, Vileplume has a positive win rate after being used in almost 20 teams and I have to take that into account even though I find it hard to explain it. At least that's how my ranking policy works, especially if I consider that I'm not experienced with the tier.

If you think Gastly and Weepinbell should be ranked higher, or at least higher than Vileplume, I understand your point. I just did not have the guts to rank them higher than Vileplume without evidence. We'll see what happens.
 
This tier is cool: name a move that is relevant to the game of RBY and I'll find a pokemon that uses it. Landing sleep inducing moves is way harder than it is in RBY OU, and this is a good thing. Even more, at least at this stage, you can pick a pokemon out of a pool of 25 to possibly 35 and fit it into a team without looking like a fool. Granted, some picks are mandatory and you need to check some conditions when building but they don't look extremely oppressive. On the other hand, switching into attack isn't easy at all.
Amnesia, AgiliWrap and Swords Dance look scary, but I have seen very little of them in action. Amnesia users might be underrated.
Considering I have basically no experience (I don't even know the number of hits to KO for every pokemon) I'll try to contribute with some thoughts and rankings. At least you're going to appreciate the effort, then we'll find out how far I will end up from truth.

S+:
View attachment 466009 is the Tauros of the tier: its attacks are inevitable. But it's not as good due to speed, it can be outsped. CH rate also isn't quite the same and Fire Blast burns can slow it down. I like Substitute (and I don't understand Rock Slide).
Clear number one, it also wins a good number of one vs one matchups (loses to Staryu, Seaking, Abra, Machamp, Pinsir; could lose against Drowzee and Dragonair). Dittos are cruel.

S:
View attachment 466010 is very dangerous even though accuracy sucks. Fire Blast/Spin, Body Slam and Hyper Beam with good speed and CH rate, many players will sign up. Toxic also is an option to help against Omanyte and other Rapidash (making them pay for using Fire Spin), but I wouldn't drop Body Slam. Maybe Arcanine and Fearow have more room for Toxic.

S-
View attachment 466011 is #3, it isn't always used but you could make a case for it to be. Solid and its moves are quite inevitable. It also has room for Agility, unlike other pokemon, even though Hyper Beam can be very useful sometimes.
View attachment 466012 Rapidash2 has great stats but it doesn't learn Fire Spin. It can switch into Fire Blast and unleash the Body Slam + Hyper Beam antics, or use Toxic on Omanyte to make things easier for Rapidash.

A+:
View attachment 466013 best rock in the tier. It takes little damage from Fire-Types and Fearow, but its offense looks weak and relies heavily on paraslams. Fire Blast burns and Toxic happen, and I'm not sure the tier allows you to use Rest a lot even though Omanyte is the one who can make that happen. It's the slowest thing ever, and at first glance it relies on getting a hit off through Fire Spin misses. That's coming from a good special stat though, Surf is like 50% to OHKO Sandslash to give an idea. Hydro Pump anyone?
The whole thing about Omastar is that it's extremely important for the tier because it prevents Scyther (and Pinsir, to a lesser degree) from being degenerated, while also being great against Fearow and good against Fire-Types. I don't think you desperately need it to beat the latter two though, so you don't need to use it every single time. My S-ranked pokemon have better win rates.
View attachment 466014 is damn fast and hits hard. It usually goes down in two hits so it looks different from Zapdos, who can be a pest when not walled. Switching into EQ is nice, but it needs a crit to beat Nidoqueen anyway. Traits for a great late game cleaner.

A-:
View attachment 466015 is bulky enough to belong to many teams. It doesn't look happy to switch into attacks, but it will defend itself against any opponent when it's fresh and goes one vs one. I'm a bit surprised to have basic pokemon ranked so high but Thunder Wave makes miracles. Using sleep moves in this tier is hard and Drowzee's speed doesn't help him, maybe it can try its luck against Omanyte.
View attachment 466016 is a tough call. It's great when unstatused, it sucks when para'd. I assume it's going to be Surf/Thunderbolt even though some are going to use Psychic. I like the fact that it checks pretty much everything when it's unstatused, with its opponents desperately fishing for critical hits or paraslams, and the only pokemon that can switch into it safely multiple times are Grass-Types (Vileplume and Parasect have basically no offese other than sleep&stun, Weepinbell is basically KO'd by TWave even though it will OHKO with Razor Leaf if it connects and if it doesn't overpredict).
View attachment 466017 is a Scyther who got tempered with wisdom: it has better stats and Submission to hit Rock-Types; it isn't weak to Blizzard. Decent speed and damage output with Slash but it looks like the matchup with Nidoqueen is the thing that is really saving it: it takes very little damage from EQ and after that it can take 2 Blizzards (that will KO Scyther instead).
It shined in the few games it was used in, during the early stages of the tournament. Honestly I didn't see this coming. Staryu and Drowzee are being used way more so I still feel comfortable ranking them higher than Pinsir.
Moveset looks tricky, I think you want Slash and Submission, with SD and HB. I'm not on the Bind train.
General consensus is that Seismic Toss (specific for Gastly) is not even going to be considered.
View attachment 466018 has the combination of speed, Hypnosis and Amnesia, which is scary. It can outplay Seaking with the notorious Hypnosis into Amnesia sequence, after switching into Surf or coming in on a predicted switch or as a revenge killer. Other than that, it looks like something that doesn't want to switch into any attack. +2 Hydro Pump OHKOs Fire-Types but Poliwag doesn't look like a lead, I'd rather bring it out later.
To me it looks the best pokemon with a sleep inducing move but I might be too high on it: paralysis is terrible and Poliwag is so weak that it loses 1 vs 1 to Fire Types, not to mention that Fearow is faster and HB is a OHKO one third of the times. I need to see (or play) more games with it: I love its potential but I need to know better to rank it higher even though I am very tempted to.
View attachment 466019 looks unexciting to me because its offense other than Sleep&Stun is so pathetic, but it turns out it has decent usage and wins roughly half of the games it's used in. Maybe Sleep&Stun is enough.
Walling Staryu is nice and Vileplume is bulky in general, but it also has weaknesses. Speed isn't great. I think it's putting up decent performances because Vileplume is the way players are getting sleep off, so I don't see it getting better. It can only go down as soon as we figure other ways to get the sleep IMO. Poliwag/Gastly/Drowzee, arguably in this specific order.
View attachment 466020 is the slow, bulkier version of Poliwag and it uses TWave instead of Hypnosis. I'm not sure it can use Rest with things like Nidoqueen, Fearow, Pinsir or Machamp coming in, so running both Psychic and Surf looks reasonable to me. I predict it to be a respectable threat.

B:
View attachment 466026I had it listed lower initially, but I think that was wrong. It can do nasty things with AgiliWrap while being also a decent hit and runner if you need just a little contribution to secure the win. However, it's definitely not as threatening as Dragonite is in OU and finding an opening for Agility (without the risk of getting statused) isn't easy. Dragonair can use its normal speed with Agility as a backup in case it gets para'd.
Moveset is up for debate: Wrap, Surf and two of Agility, TWave and Thunderbolt.
It looks like Hyper Beam is good only when facing Abra or Drowzee. I'm going to stress once more that TWave is a great button in this tier.
I think you have to live with not being able to finish against Vileplume because Surf is better than Blizzard.
View attachment 466021 I need to see more action from it. It doesn't get used a lot but it has the traits to be a great revenge killer and possibly even more, even though it can't switch into attacks.
Extremely threatening but it gets OHKO'd by Hyper Beams, and there are faster pokemon (Fire-Types, Fearow, Scyther).
View attachment 466022 is the only pokemon that can take 3 EQs from Nidoqueen and live to tell the story (unless max rolls or crits happen). On paper it's great but if Fearow is kept under control by its weaknesses, Machamp is kept under control by its speed. It should also beat Seaking more often than not, Fire-Types need a Fire Blast burn.
View attachment 466023 some players use it but I don't like Psychic nor SToss, moves that look quite specific for Omanyte to me. Confuse Ray can be good sometimes, but I like Rapidash and Arcanine better. It can get OHKO'd by Sandslash and Graveler, and very often by +2 Hyper Beams (Rapidash and Arcanine can take it).

C:
View attachment 466025 is an even trickier call than Staryu, it looks extremely hit or miss depending on predictions. It loses many one on ones, most notably Nidoqueen and Fire-Types, but it does great against Water-Types, especially Amnesia users.
Anyway, you need to stay away from TWave and you also need to predict a switching in Nidoqueen by using Psychic instead of Thunderbolt.
View attachment 466024I don't think Graveler wants to switch into Fire Blast, my take is that you answer Fire-types with your own, and you want to paraslam them. Toxic isn't much of a problem because, unlike Omanyte, Graveler can hit hard. Graveler fails the Nidoqueen test, is slow and suffers some OHKOs.
Sure, it checks Fire-Types damn well, denying Fire Spin, and it helps a lot against Fearow. It can do good things if you can get it into the battlefield for free (maybe with a trapping move) and you can bail him out against Nidoqueen and Water moves.
View attachment 466027 potentially is the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. However, it can get OHKO'd by Rapidash/Arcanine and it's walled by Omanyte, Graveler and Gastly. Other than that it needs little setup to sweep entire teams. Scyther looks great on paper but reality is a different thing. It still looks underrated to me though.
View attachment 466062Sure, it's frail and Nidoqueen 2HKOs it (Vileplume can take 2 hits) but Weepinbell has some offense other than Sleep&Stun: Wrap means that you have the upper hand against para'd Fire-Types and Razor Leaf can force Water-Types out, making Stun Spore better.
View attachment 466037 I like Machamp better. Primeape is faster but it's significantly worse against Nidoqueen and Fire-Types.
View attachment 466038Another pokemon that fails the Nidoqueen test, while being naturally weak to Water and also not in a nice spot against unstatused Fire-Types.

D:
View attachment 466057doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire and Water types. Decent bulk (it can check Seaking), but good part of its game revolves around hitting good targets with Explosion. Mega Drain saves it from being walled by Rocks.
View attachment 466045 I don't like being walled by Nidoqueen. Things can only get worse with Graveler or possibly Vileplume.
View attachment 466039 Nobody talks about it because it's a worse Fearow (no Drill Peck and unfavorable stats) and nobody uses both, but I'll mention it here.
View attachment 466040 is damn slow, I have seen little from it and I wouldn't rule it out yet.
View attachment 466041 has Sleep&Stun and can push some damage, it just needs to find an opening. Its speed (most notably, being outsped by Nidoqueen) condemns it to mediocrity.
View attachment 466042 has great stats but it's too slow. Maybe it could do good things but I like the other Fire-Types (even Magmar) better because they deal better with Nidoqueen, Water-Types and Scyther.
View attachment 466043has Glare, Wrap and decent speed but it can't beat any of the top threats (Nidoqueen, Fire-Types, Water-Types) in a pure one on one. Stats are quite similar to Dragonair's, who looks like the better version of it.
View attachment 466046 is quite similar to Vileplume but it's way weaker to special attacks, and slower.
View attachment 466047 It looks like a lesser Muk, which isn't spectacular to start with. It doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire types. It looks like Explosion and Thunderbolt are all it can offer, and Muk's Explosion is better.
View attachment 466049 I'd just use Graveler. Onix is faster and has Bind but damage output is too low and it gets OHKO'd by Nidoqueen's Blizzard.

E:
View attachment 466048 I'd pick Electrode instead.
View attachment 466050 At first I thought it could at least learn Earthquake, it turns out it can't even do that. Not that it would help its case.
View attachment 466053 View attachment 466054 View attachment 466055View attachment 466056 too weak, I don't think they belong. They need to evolve.
View attachment 466052 View attachment 466051the way Fighting-Types always got disrespected in gen1, whether it was the cartridge game or trading cards, makes me sick to my stomach. To this very day. I needed to get this off my chest.
I agree with what you said about fighting types, but you forgot one key thing: Hitmonchan in Haymaker Decks.
 
View attachment 466045I don't like being walled by Nidoqueen. Things can only get worse with Graveler or possibly Vileplume.
honestly, i think electrode is underrated. forces out many relevant threats out and can potentially switch in on them.
Seaking Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 128-151 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Seaking Surf vs. Electrode: 102-121 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Seaking: 205-242 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Electrode: 130-153 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(even if it does burn rapidash still does not want to be para'd)
Rapidash Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Rapidash: 409-481 (122.8 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Arcanine Fire Blast vs. Electrode: 130-153 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(same as rapidash)
Arcanine Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 22.6% chance to 2HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Arcanine: 376-443 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- 89.7% chance to OHKO
Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 140-165 (43.3 - 51%) -- 4.1% chance to 2HKO
Omanyte Blizzard vs. Electrode: 93-110 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Omanyte: 194-228 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fearow Double-Edge vs. Electrode: 127-150 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Fearow Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 189-223 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(i am aware that fearow does beat electrode after an agility, still scary though)
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Fearow: 239-282 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Magmar Fire Blast vs. Electrode: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(same as rapidash and arcanine)
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Magmar: 455-535 (136.6 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Abra Psychic vs. Electrode: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. Abra: 376-443 (148.6 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Poliwag Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Poliwag: 301-354 (106.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Poliwag Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 181-213 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. Poliwag: 271-319 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- 74.4% chance to OHKO
Scyther Slash vs. Electrode on a critical hit: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Scyther Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 22.6% chance to 2HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Scyther: 255-300 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Staryu Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 119-141 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Staryu: 224-264 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
Drowzee Psychic vs. Electrode: 105-124 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Drowzee: 513-603 (158.8 - 186.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


also not mentioning how many more things it scares out with paralysis
imo this thing is b tier
 
honestly, i think electrode is underrated. forces out many relevant threats out and can potentially switch in on them.


also not mentioning how many more things it scares out with paralysis
imo this thing is b tier

Yeah, it might be underrated. My D rank is quite harsh. Thunderbolt definitely is fashinating in a tier where Omanyte and Seaking are all over the place, Fearow is a good pick, and you are dishing out neutral damage at worst after Nidoqueen and possibly Vileplume are gone (let's assume a scenario where Graveler and Sandslash are rare).
However, if you look at how games play out in this tier, Nidoqueen is very often saved for late game.

Damage rolls aren't all that important, we know Electrode could be dangerous but before that you have some work to do. Its game heavily revolves around baiting Nidoqueen in and making a double switch to something else that can chip away at opposing defenses until Nidoqueen has to stay in and you can KO it.
 
I do think Electrode's largest merit in the tier is its Screech+Explosion combo, removing Nidoqueen if it switches into the Screech (as Explosion will do 94% min). My Electrode for their Nidoqueen feels like a worthwhile trade. Alternatively, the Screech forces the Queen out and allows me to click more Thunderbolts vs their Fires. But it is very useless against Queen+Plume or Queen+Grav structures so I don't think it's a very valuable pick while Vileplume usage is high right now.
 
speaking of vileplume

i personally am under the opinion that vileplume is like c tier, even though sleep, paralysis spreading and grass stab are honestly really good traits
id usually just use weepin bell because it gets wrap, has viable grass stab in razor leaf and can still do sleep and paralysis shenanigans
Vileplume Mega Drain vs. Omanyte: 194-228 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plume can't even one shot omanyte with a 4x effective move
meanwhile weepinbell
Weepinbell Razor Leaf vs. Omanyte on a critical hit: 452-532 (165.5 - 194.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(i dont know why its automatically crit when i dont think weepinbell is fast enough to get guarenteed crits but whatever still kills)
also because of wrap, it FEEDS on an incoming machamp or anything slower than it for that matter.

although vileplume still has a niche as a more specially defensive mon than weepinbell, also has better defense
probably preferred on more defensive teams, but personally i think weepinbell is better.
 
ok guys... you know what uhh what time it is?

that's right
time for my long awaited EPIC GAMER BOK ANAYLYSIS!!!
Now, you might be thinking to yourself, "chermal shut up bok sucks you should be ashamed at yourself for spreading such blatant disinformation how could you" but trust me, bok is secretly amazing and I'm going to show you why.

enough messing around with font sizes for now... time to get into the meat of bok behavior.

You see,


arbok.png

see this? see this fellow right here? this here, is bok. say hi to bok. now, what's so special about bok you may ask?
well, you see, it's got a pretty nice speed tier of 80 speed. this means it outspeeds nidoqueen, which will be important for later.

it's signature move, glare, while frustratingly innacurate at times with its 15 (75) percent accuracy, can paralyze ground types. sure, stun powder can accomplish the same, but all the users of stun spore are slower than nidoqueen. therefore, it's risky, n, yeah.

thanks to bok's diligent dirt eating routine, bok is guaranteed to survive one nidoqueen earthquake barring crits. this means it can have a second go at rolling the bones at glare if it fails the first time. bok also has access to wrap, which can allow you to pull off the gamer move of killing nido from full health. because bok has EQ for some reason, bok can do 37 - 43.8% nido in return. so, with some chip damage, you can. yeah kill nidoqueen. Whether you chip her into 2HKO range, OHKO range, or just decide to be wacky and wrap it to death, you can do that if you want! also, wrap let's you switch in something more threatening.

bok also outspeeds seaking. p cool. also dragonair, so don't try to argue that bok is just outclassed by nair. technically that's not true.

mega drain is cool against graveler with a 40.7% to 2HKO, as well as the rare but admittedly pretty bad onix (rby ZU moment). also a 93.5% chance to 2HKO Omanyte with EQ. you could use HB but personally in my experience, I prefer mega drain. Hyper beam can do stuff too though.

all in all, bok is uhh- well, in all honesty, bok is only really niche at best. all of my attempts to build with bok have failed- I still feel like there's some magic combo out there that's yet to be discovered however. probably not though. at the current moment bok isn't really at all tournament viable if you're looking for consistency, plus, there's a lot of opportunity cost to running bok instead of something else like seaking or smth.

but, y'know, if you need a universal para spreader that can pivot with a partial trapping move and outspeeds nido for your team, you know who to call...

body slam rapidash or smth idk bok kinda sucks. but uhh if you guys have any, any ideas, please feel free to share. and let me know. thank you. this uhh, me first time doing this, pretty rough around the edges, will prolly do something more in depth some day, but. hope you enjoyed this somewhat.

this concludes my analysis of everybody's favorite generation one ZUBL poke-man, mr. ar bok.
 
Swiss rounds in the Pioneer tournament are nearly over and as we prepare to update resources for the tier, I thought providing usage stats for the tournament's swiss round would be helpful as a reference point. At the time of my posting, there were 237 replays, meaning 474 teams were used.

nidoqueen.png
RBY PU
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  429 |  90.51% |  47.32% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |  355 |  74.89% |  46.48% |
| 3    | Staryu             |  270 |  56.96% |  52.22% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |  207 |  43.67% |  52.17% |
| 5    | Drowzee            |  181 |  38.19% |  53.59% |
| 6    | Seaking            |  177 |  37.34% |  48.59% |
| 7    | Arcanine           |  141 |  29.75% |  49.65% |
| 8    | Fearow             |  131 |  27.64% |  44.27% |
| 9    | Vileplume          |  127 |  26.79% |  48.82% |
| 10   | Dragonair          |   84 |  17.72% |  51.19% |
| 11   | Graveler           |   81 |  17.09% |  43.21% |
| 12   | Pinsir             |   76 |  16.03% |  60.53% |
| 13   | Machamp            |   73 |  15.40% |  53.42% |
| 14   | Magmar             |   59 |  12.45% |  30.51% |
| 15   | Abra               |   57 |  12.03% |  43.86% |
| 16   | Slowpoke           |   56 |  11.81% |  58.93% |
| 17   | Sandslash          |   51 |  10.76% |  43.14% |
| 18   | Gastly             |   35 |   7.38% |  51.43% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |   32 |   6.75% |  59.38% |
| 20   | Electrode          |   27 |   5.70% |  29.63% |
| 21   | Poliwag            |   16 |   3.38% |  43.75% |
| 22   | Onix               |   12 |   2.53% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Lickitung          |   11 |   2.32% |  45.45% |
| 24   | Arbok              |   10 |   2.11% |  30.00% |
| 25   | Primeape           |    7 |   1.48% |  42.86% |
| 26   | Flareon            |    5 |   1.05% |  20.00% |
| 26   | Muk                |    5 |   1.05% |  20.00% |
| 26   | Scyther            |    5 |   1.05% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Magneton           |    3 |   0.63% |  66.67% |
| 29   | Parasect           |    3 |   0.63% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Shellder           |    3 |   0.63% |  33.33% |
| 32   | Pidgeot            |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Seadra             |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Tentacool          |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CATCHMYCHUB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ARA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ROYZIN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GANGSTA SPONGEBOB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from COLLECTORELY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MAKI'S FOX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LONDON13.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MISTER TIM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SIFICON~.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from SOMALIA.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from LAMBOVINO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from FAATBATMAN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SHANEGHOUL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from KENNY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MRSOUP.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ICE YAZU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ITZADELTA!.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HOLLYDAY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES ♥.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MRSOUP.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHUVA DE PERERECA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.

rapidash.png
RBY PU Leads
rapidash.png

Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Rapidash                |  200 |  42.19% |  42.50% |
| 2    | Arcanine                |   90 |  18.99% |  57.78% |
| 3    | Slowpoke                |   40 |   8.44% |  62.50% |
| 4    | Dragonair               |   29 |   6.12% |  65.52% |
| 5    | Poliwag                 |   15 |   3.16% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Gastly                  |   11 |   2.32% |  63.64% |
| 6    | Staryu                  |   11 |   2.32% |  36.36% |
| 6    | Electrode               |   11 |   2.32% |  36.36% |
| 9    | Graveler                |   10 |   2.11% |  70.00% |
| 9    | Drowzee                 |   10 |   2.11% |  40.00% |
| 11   | Omanyte                 |    9 |   1.90% |  55.56% |
| 12   | Machamp                 |    8 |   1.69% |  75.00% |
| 13   | Nidoqueen               |    6 |   1.27% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Seaking                 |    4 |   0.84% |  75.00% |
| 15   | Primeape                |    3 |   0.63% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Sandslash               |    3 |   0.63% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Weepinbell              |    3 |   0.63% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Magmar                  |    2 |   0.42% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Arbok                   |    2 |   0.42% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Vileplume               |    2 |   0.42% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Muk                     |    2 |   0.42% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Parasect                |    1 |   0.21% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Flareon                 |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Tentacool               |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |

Teh also asked me to compile stats for each round and because I am supremely based, I did it.

nidoqueen.png
Pioneer Round 1
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  109 |  97.32% |  49.54% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |  100 |  89.29% |  49.00% |
| 3    | Staryu             |   49 |  43.75% |  42.86% |
| 4    | Seaking            |   47 |  41.96% |  55.32% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   47 |  41.96% |  53.19% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   45 |  40.18% |  53.33% |
| 7    | Vileplume          |   41 |  36.61% |  53.66% |
| 8    | Arcanine           |   36 |  32.14% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Fearow             |   32 |  28.57% |  53.12% |
| 10   | Magmar             |   29 |  25.89% |  37.93% |
| 11   | Dragonair          |   17 |  15.18% |  29.41% |
| 12   | Graveler           |   16 |  14.29% |  31.25% |
| 13   | Sandslash          |   15 |  13.39% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Machamp            |   13 |  11.61% |  53.85% |
| 15   | Pinsir             |   12 |  10.71% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Abra               |   11 |   9.82% |  72.73% |
| 17   | Electrode          |    7 |   6.25% |  28.57% |
| 18   | Slowpoke           |    6 |   5.36% |  83.33% |
| 19   | Gastly             |    5 |   4.46% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Onix               |    5 |   4.46% |  60.00% |
| 21   | Primeape           |    4 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Weepinbell         |    4 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Parasect           |    2 |   1.79% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Poliwag            |    2 |   1.79% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Lickitung          |    2 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Scyther            |    2 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Magneton           |    1 |   0.89% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.89% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Arbok              |    1 |   0.89% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CATCHMYCHUB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ARA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ROYZIN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.

nidoqueen.png
Pioneer Round 2
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  105 |  90.52% |  46.67% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |   98 |  84.48% |  45.92% |
| 3    | Staryu             |   60 |  51.72% |  56.67% |
| 4    | Arcanine           |   48 |  41.38% |  60.42% |
| 5    | Omanyte            |   47 |  40.52% |  51.06% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   44 |  37.93% |  56.82% |
| 6    | Seaking            |   44 |  37.93% |  43.18% |
| 8    | Vileplume          |   31 |  26.72% |  32.26% |
| 9    | Fearow             |   29 |  25.00% |  48.28% |
| 10   | Graveler           |   22 |  18.97% |  45.45% |
| 11   | Machamp            |   15 |  12.93% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Sandslash          |   15 |  12.93% |  53.33% |
| 13   | Pinsir             |   14 |  12.07% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Abra               |   14 |  12.07% |  28.57% |
| 13   | Magmar             |   14 |  12.07% |   7.14% |
| 16   | Dragonair          |   13 |  11.21% |  61.54% |
| 17   | Slowpoke           |    8 |   6.90% |  87.50% |
| 17   | Weepinbell         |    8 |   6.90% |  62.50% |
| 19   | Gastly             |    7 |   6.03% |  57.14% |
| 20   | Arbok              |    5 |   4.31% |  40.00% |
| 21   | Lickitung          |    2 |   1.72% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Scyther            |    2 |   1.72% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Onix               |    2 |   1.72% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Electrode          |    2 |   1.72% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Magneton           |    1 |   0.86% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Shellder           |    1 |   0.86% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Pidgeot            |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Poliwag            |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Seadra             |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Primeape           |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GANGSTA SPONGEBOB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from COLLECTORELY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MAKI'S FOX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LONDON13.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MISTER TIM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SIFICON~.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from SOMALIA.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from LAMBOVINO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from FAATBATMAN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.

nidoqueen.png
Pioneer Round 3
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   82 |  89.13% |  48.78% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |   59 |  64.13% |  42.37% |
| 3    | Staryu             |   55 |  59.78% |  58.18% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   43 |  46.74% |  53.49% |
| 5    | Seaking            |   42 |  45.65% |  40.48% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   36 |  39.13% |  55.56% |
| 7    | Vileplume          |   25 |  27.17% |  48.00% |
| 8    | Fearow             |   23 |  25.00% |  30.43% |
| 9    | Abra               |   18 |  19.57% |  38.89% |
| 10   | Arcanine           |   17 |  18.48% |  47.06% |
| 10   | Graveler           |   17 |  18.48% |  35.29% |
| 12   | Dragonair          |   16 |  17.39% |  81.25% |
| 12   | Slowpoke           |   16 |  17.39% |  62.50% |
| 14   | Machamp            |   15 |  16.30% |  53.33% |
| 15   | Pinsir             |   14 |  15.22% |  64.29% |
| 16   | Sandslash          |   13 |  14.13% |  46.15% |
| 17   | Magmar             |   10 |  10.87% |  30.00% |
| 17   | Electrode          |   10 |  10.87% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |    8 |   8.70% |  75.00% |
| 20   | Onix               |    5 |   5.43% |  60.00% |
| 21   | Muk                |    4 |   4.35% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Gastly             |    2 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Lickitung          |    2 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Arbok              |    1 |   1.09% | 100.00% |
| 24   | Magneton           |    1 |   1.09% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Shellder           |    1 |   1.09% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Poliwag            |    1 |   1.09% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SHANEGHOUL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.

nidoqueen.png
Pioneer Round 4
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   63 |  90.00% |  44.44% |
| 2    | Staryu             |   49 |  70.00% |  53.06% |
| 3    | Rapidash           |   44 |  62.86% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   32 |  45.71% |  43.75% |
| 5    | Drowzee            |   28 |  40.00% |  53.57% |
| 6    | Fearow             |   22 |  31.43% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Dragonair          |   20 |  28.57% |  35.00% |
| 8    | Pinsir             |   19 |  27.14% |  63.16% |
| 8    | Arcanine           |   19 |  27.14% |  42.11% |
| 10   | Vileplume          |   15 |  21.43% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Graveler           |   14 |  20.00% |  64.29% |
| 12   | Machamp            |   13 |  18.57% |  46.15% |
| 13   | Seaking            |   12 |  17.14% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Slowpoke           |   12 |  17.14% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Gastly             |    9 |  12.86% |  55.56% |
| 16   | Weepinbell         |    7 |  10.00% |  42.86% |
| 16   | Abra               |    7 |  10.00% |  14.29% |
| 18   | Poliwag            |    5 |   7.14% |  60.00% |
| 18   | Sandslash          |    5 |   7.14% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Magmar             |    3 |   4.29% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Lickitung          |    1 |   1.43% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Tentacool          |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Arbok              |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Primeape           |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Scyther            |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from KENNY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MRSOUP.

nidoqueen.png
Pioneer Round 5
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   70 |  83.33% |  45.71% |
| 2    | Staryu             |   57 |  67.86% |  49.12% |
| 3    | Rapidash           |   54 |  64.29% |  44.44% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   38 |  45.24% |  57.89% |
| 5    | Seaking            |   32 |  38.10% |  56.25% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   28 |  33.33% |  46.43% |
| 7    | Fearow             |   25 |  29.76% |  36.00% |
| 8    | Arcanine           |   21 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Dragonair          |   18 |  21.43% |  55.56% |
| 10   | Pinsir             |   17 |  20.24% |  58.82% |
| 10   | Machamp            |   17 |  20.24% |  52.94% |
| 12   | Vileplume          |   15 |  17.86% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Slowpoke           |   14 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Gastly             |   12 |  14.29% |  41.67% |
| 14   | Graveler           |   12 |  14.29% |  41.67% |
| 16   | Electrode          |    8 |   9.52% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Abra               |    7 |   8.33% |  71.43% |
| 17   | Poliwag            |    7 |   8.33% |  42.86% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |    5 |   5.95% |  60.00% |
| 20   | Lickitung          |    4 |   4.76% |  25.00% |
| 21   | Magmar             |    3 |   3.57% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Sandslash          |    3 |   3.57% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Flareon            |    3 |   3.57% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Arbok              |    2 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Primeape           |    1 |   1.19% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Parasect           |    1 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Shellder           |    1 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Muk                |    1 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ICE YAZU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ITZADELTA!.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HOLLYDAY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES ♥.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MRSOUP.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHUVA DE PERERECA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.

nidoqueen.png
SM OU
nidoqueen.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   32 |  94.12% |  46.88% |
| 2    | Staryu             |   30 |  88.24% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Omanyte            |   24 |  70.59% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Drowzee            |   15 |  44.12% |  46.67% |
| 5    | Rapidash           |   14 |  41.18% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Fearow             |   11 |  32.35% |  36.36% |
| 7    | Slowpoke           |   10 |  29.41% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Pinsir             |    9 |  26.47% |  55.56% |
| 9    | Vileplume          |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Machamp            |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Dragonair          |    7 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 12   | Seaking            |    5 |  14.71% |  80.00% |
| 12   | Gastly             |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 14   | Abra               |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Magmar             |    4 |  11.76% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Graveler           |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Arcanine           |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Poliwag            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Sandslash          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ROYZIN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MONAI.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from LEON CROMWELL.
 
Last edited:
Alright, time for some exciting updates about RBY PU!

First, RBY PU is officially challengeable on Pokemon Showdown! You will no longer need to use the challenge command to play the tier. Additionally, you can now more easily separate your teams (NU players rejoice!).

Second, we now have Sample Teams! You may find these Sample Teams in the OP of this thread. Thanks to TehTayTeh, Ema Skye, Ctown6, nicole7735, and chub for their contributions. If you would like to propose a sample team, reach out to me in the RBY Discord.

Finally, the Pioneer PU Tournament will be moving into the final bracket stage next week. Good luck to all the competitors!

Cheers!
 
Pioneer is wrapping up and so I figured I'd share a VR to get some discussion there going.

my-image(8).png

S:
:nidoqueen: Still queen of the tier all these months later. Trades very well against nearly the entire meta and has a flexible moveset to hit everything. EQ/Blizzard/Fire Blast are mandatory, but Thunderbolt, Substitute and Counter are all good options for the last slot to improve specific matchups. Should realistically be on every team.

A+:
:fearow: Could reasonably see this as number one because of its revenge killing abilities. Outsped only by Rapidash, Fearow acts as a strong speed ceiling in the tier and boasts the strongest Hyper Beam in the tier (5% stronger than Machamp's). Its a phenomenal partner for Nidoqueen as its two best checks (Pinsir and Machamp) can't deal with Fearow well at all.

:pinsir: Great lead due to strong MUs vs other good leads (such as Dragonair). Slash is consistently powerful and Seismic Toss covers Gastly, Graveler and Omanyte. Bind, Submission and Hyper Beam all have merits for the rest of the moveset. Is pretty much the only reason why Queen runs Fire Blast. Good matchup vs Machamp too.

:machamp: One of the bulkiest mons in the tier, Machamp is the best Nidoqueen check (aside from Fire Blast burns) and is generally fairly difficult to switch into outside of Pinsir. It mostly operates without STAB (Low Kick/Bslam/HBeam/EQ) and so it doesn't hit quite as hard as 130 atk suggests, but paraslam into Hyper Beam is a devasting wallbreaking combo for it.

A:
:staryu: Once suggested as #2 in the tier, Staryu drops a bit due to lacking the well-roundedness of the mons above it. Twave+Recovery is always good, and it always walls Seaking. Outspeeds Nidoqueen which is also huge for it (Surf should always be ran).

:dragonair: Incredible lead. Spreads para and pivots like nothing else. Led to the rise of lead Pinsir. AgilWrap can just win games on its own sometimes and Blizzbolt is good rounded coverage. Very limited defensively though and struggles navigating around Nidoqueen.

A-:
:drowzee: Best mon with a sleep move, Drowzee is a consistently strong support option. Its a consistent paralysis spreader that deters Nidoqueen from coming in due to Psychic. Has a good Staryu matchup and Hypnosis can win games when it lands. Speed is its main flaw, though its bulk is often just enough to take a hit and try sleeping something (its typically 3HKOed).

:rapidash: Speed ceiling in the meta. Its best value is outspeeding Fearow and it also covers Pinsir. Fire Spin sometimes wins games. Walled by Omanyte/Graveler and struggles with Slowpoke, Seaking and even Gastly, and so its not as difficult to deal with as the A+ mons.

:gastly: Quite possibly the best lead due to its matchups vs Pinsir and Dragonair. Night Shade is consistent damage, and Psybolt is good neutral coverage as well. Hypnosis is RBY sleep and so can win games when it lands. Obviously has to be fearful of Nidoqueen but it can chip a weakened one. Can be good in the back as well due to its coverage.

B+:
:graveler: Fearow counter is always helpful. Better also vs Pinsir and Machamp due to higher physical bulk than Omanyte. Rapidash matchup can be shaky due to burns but you generally win it too. Also struggles vs Staryu and Dragonair.

:seaking: consistent physical attacker with a decent Nidoqueen MU if it lacks Thunderbolt. Walled by Staryu and lacks the raw power of the A+ mons and Rapidash's speed.

:omanyte: Graveler with a better Rapidash matchup (it runs Rest) and a worse Pinsir/Machamp one. Does this one role better than nothing else in the meta but is very one-dimensional.

B:
:abra: Strongest Psychic in the tier and a great speed tier to boot. Nothing wants to switch into it except Drowzee. Needs a Fearow counter. Struggles a bit with Staryu, Dragonair and Drowzee as its a dead mon if it gets paralyzed.

:slowpoke: Did quite well in the tour as a lead. Doesn't really care about paralysis and applies its own freely. Harder to pull off vs the PT leads. Good Drowzee switchin.

B-:
:weepinbell: Sleeper that breaks rocks and offers PT against paralyzed mons. Has limited defensive value but some teams struggle switching into it.

Unranked:
:arcanine::magmar: The most frequent discussions all tour were about how to place the fires. DoubleFire was popular early in the tour but was quickly exploited by the rise of Staryu, Omanyte being everywhere and Graveler becoming common. Waters also became more commonly used. Magmar might be better due to SToss or Cray letting it break Graveler or Omanyte, but neither is generally worth running due to the increased weakness to Nidoqueen when either stacks checks with Rapidash.

:vileplume: It is the most consistent sleeper but generally doesn't do much afterwards. It hits like a wet noodle.

:poliwag: Fastest sleeper and Amnesia makes it very swingy, but its the definition of inconsistent.

:sandslash: Good matchups vs a lot of the tier but doesn't hit hard enough and has a low speed tier that make it frustrating to use. Probably the best unranked mon.

:electrode: With enough pressure on Nidoqueen, this could find a place eventually in the tier. It just sucks that every team has a counter to it guaranteed, and especially if they also have Graveler.
 
my-image (6).png


Since I got eliminated I figured I would post my personal VR. Once the ranking period starts I'll be submitting this. DM me on Discord if you have any questions.

I lied.
my-image (5).png
There are some takes that could age horribly in the future maybe but I'm willing to accept that.
 
Last edited:
my-image (3).png

I definitely enjoyed my team in this tier, so I just want to post some thoughts about building and how I approached this tier along with my VR.
My first approach was similar to how a lot of people saw the tier early, with fires being the go to strategy. The main difference I saw between my own and what other people were using was Graveler>Omanyte. I basically started with the idea of staryu drowzee graveler as the glue core to support rapidash nidoqueen and then your choice of last for the "standard build," while toying with a couple early more offensive structures that I tweaked later. In my first games I brought the double fire and dragonair teams from the ones seen below built day 1.
1673734776897.png

I mostly just tweaked these for my next set against Mana, because I had built all 5 with him and didn't want to use the exact teams. I just replaced machamp on the poliwag team with pinsir, and replaced machamp with arcanine on the gastly team. There isn't really much to say about either of the first 2 sets or any reason to give imports, as the meta has changed a lot and neither were worth talking about anyway. At that point I had clinched with 2 activity wins, so I went about trying to see what else worked and experimented, and used a couple ideas in my first set vs yazu.
https://pokepast.es/df7a398bcdc2020a I think this team had a lot of promise in the water spam meta, and it basically carried leru to top 8, but at this point weepinbell probably isn't worth using, and I never really found any success with it in the first place. https://pokepast.es/555350b835b5d9a7 This team in g2 was an early version of me trying to make phys spam work with pinsir and fearow, but I'm not really a big fan of sleepless with rapidash lead. It can be tweaked in a lot of different directions to improve which is what I did later. Game 3 I wanted to confirm if Arcanine actually was good or not, and determined, it was not.
This leads into playoffs with my first set vs Ema Skye. This was when I figured out how to actually fit all the physical spammers on 1 team, and made this.

https://pokepast.es/b219f3205b20aa66
1673735718805.png

I think this is my personal favourite team in the whole meta, and I used it in every playoff set. I've been asked many times what pinsir lead does, and like it doesn't really do anything the team just doesn't have a lead so I tossed it there so I could fit all of pinsir machamp and fearow lol. It can just punch a hole early if it gets a favourable matchup. I'm using omanyte because it's too fire weak otherwise, and drowzee compresses sleep and twave which this team appreciates a lot.

https://pokepast.es/661653bf234641a0
1673735814783.png

Game 2 I used this, I just replaced the arcanine with magmar from an earlier team and it kinda works? It's very reliant on pushing offensive pressure as there's no rock so you rely on the fires to beat all the phys attackers. I used this with poliwag lead as well later but it's the same thing just more fishy. I think magmar benefits most from a fast paced team because if it can force good damage on a rock your dash and fearow are super opened up. I'm not sure if this team is really the best way to go about it but it worked this round I guess.

Next was Leru, who was using my weep team and original dragonair team the entire tour.

https://pokepast.es/8187534095b1dc10
1673736093502.png

He brought dogshit so nothing I brought really mattered but I didn't use this team anywhere else so I figured I'd post. It was just a more modern attempt at agility dragonair with pinsir being the best mon to force early damage in my opinion, so i just tried to fit it together based on that. One of the main reasons I didn't use this later was because of fear of abra lead which caught on, and kinda fucks this team up if u get crit or miss hypno. Other than that its pretty solid. Game 2 I just brought the weepinbell team again.

Yazu

https://pokepast.es/da0984f0aa952d09
1673736432480.png

I decided to make my own Abra lead team, and ended up here. I figured pinsir would be a good partner since abra is basically guaranteed an early twave unless it's facing a phys lead, and gastly provides the sleep in the back while giving a midground into normal moves since it's easy to wear oma down, and I wanted oma instead of grav in case of dash lead. Fearow closes because it's fearow. I used this into chuva as well but with gastly lead since he kept spamming shit that was good into abra lead and it ended up winning both times so it's probably good.

https://pokepast.es/9a2d4559741a9846
1673736896330.png

I also hadn't used a single dnair lead yet, so I decided to give it a shot. I'm not a huge fan of it because of gastly lead existing, but it can definitely reward you pretty hard in the right matchup. I came up with this after playing some random games vs teh and he had brought this but with staryu > dnair, and abra as lead. I mentioned that I had made almost the exact same team but with dash lead day 1, and it got me thinking about how to revamp the psyspam + grav + seaking idea, because they complement each other quite well, and ended up here.

G3 I used the magmar team again and it very did not work. Midmar. G4 was pinsir champ fearow, not much to say there.
Game 5 I just didn't feel like using whatever team I had prepped, I don't even remember what it was, and used the seaking team again but with abra lead. Complain about the robbery all you want but there was luck throughout that entire series that I was also on the other end of, and plenty of other chances in that game for me to luck that's just how the tier works.

I didn't end up actually building anything new for chuva, just reworked old teams and used teams from previous playoff rounds because I was busy and didn't have any big ideas to bring. For teams I haven't talked about:

https://pokepast.es/40fe13b6cad9ea87
1673737481574.png

I went back to the day 1 version with machamp but with gastly lead, it's probably a little better than the magmar version by virtue of not having magmar on it.
And finally..

https://pokepast.es/b535521d2c82b993
1673737583923.png

This team from day 1 still works lol. I think it's gotten a lot better with recent shifts as well. I think it easily could've won the game, but again, hax all through the series, it's not like I can complain, I got plenty of luck earlier. This team is pretty self explanatory, the drowzee star graveler core is pretty solid into the normal spam stuff around and agiliwrap is agiliwrap. Dash lead gives you the pivot opportunities with spin into drowzee or just attack whatever's in front of you.

Anyway, thanks all involved with the tour for the fun time, Vileplume bad, Onix worse, ggs everyone
 

Attachments

  • 1673736085443.png
    1673736085443.png
    41.4 KB · Views: 90
I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

This VR was made from contributions from top placers in the tournament (in no particular order): Ice Yazu, stunner047, TehTayTeh, Hayburner, nicole7735, Ctown6, chub, Ema Skye, Torchic, chuva de perereca, royzin, and MrSoup. Thank you for your submissions!

A few caveats before we get into this VR:

1) This was made entirely through me aggregating data and drawing conclusions on where lines should be drawn between tiers and sub-tiers. This means they may be a bit subjective. I will publish the raw data later so you can all tell me how wrong I was to draw the lines where I did. This sentence will become a link when I do publish the raw data.

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

3) I didn't get a chance to reach out to the following players for VR submissions:
fatBatman
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
I apologize for not reaching out to you all sooner, but I was busier than I expected. If any of you would still like to send me a VR, you are eligible to do so. I will update this post to reflect your submissions as soon as I can. If you wish to contribute, please send your VRs to me as soon as possible!

Without further ado, the new PU VR:
RBY_PU_VR_Winter_2023.png


Pinsir and Fearow actually tied for the #2 spot by average. The spot was awarded to Pinsir, as it had a higher median rating.

In addition to being ranked lower than all Pokemon above, the Pokemon in D and F Rank were included in the VRs of notably fewer people. Most of the Pokemon in D Rank were ranked by around half the pool while every Pokemon in F Rank was ranked by three or fewer people. If a Pokemon was ranked even once, it is shown here.

Coming Soon!

Thank you to all who contributed! Cheers to a fruitful year for RBY PU!
 
I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

This VR was made from contributions from top placers in the tournament (in no particular order): Ice Yazu, stunner047, TehTayTeh, Hayburner, nicole7735, Ctown6, chub, Ema Skye, Torchic, chuva de perereca, royzin, and MrSoup. Thank you for your submissions!

A few caveats before we get into this VR:

1) This was made entirely through me aggregating data and drawing conclusions on where lines should be drawn between tiers and sub-tiers. This means they may be a bit subjective. I will publish the raw data later so you can all tell me how wrong I was to draw the lines where I did. This sentence will become a link when I do publish the raw data.

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

3) I didn't get a chance to reach out to the following players for VR submissions:
fatBatman
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
I apologize for not reaching out to you all sooner, but I was busier than I expected. If any of you would still like to send me a VR, you are eligible to do so. I will update this post to reflect your submissions as soon as I can. If you wish to contribute, please send your VRs to me as soon as possible!

Without further ado, the new PU VR:
View attachment 486872

Pinsir and Fearow actually tied for the #2 spot by average. The spot was awarded to Pinsir, as it had a higher median rating.

In addition to being ranked lower than all Pokemon above, the Pokemon in D and F Rank were included in the VRs of notably fewer people. Most of the Pokemon in D Rank were ranked by around half the pool while every Pokemon in F Rank was ranked by three or fewer people. If a Pokemon was ranked even once, it is shown here.

Coming Soon!

Thank you to all who contributed! Cheers to a fruitful year for RBY PU!
It warms my heart seeing Machamp being able to find a home. And it's not an embarrassingly low tier like with the old Pokémon Perfect's 6U, which put Machamp in the same tier as Kabutops... And fucking Butterfree.
 
Last edited:
Two quick things:

I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

I hesitate to call this an “official” VR, as the reqs were only based off one tournament/there’s no council yet that is making decisions on who gets reqs. I think this is a good starting point though, and I think I will ask for some community input on a council shortly. We’re definitely on our way to making things as official as they can be, though!

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

For consistency’s sake, I’m going to make the ruling that the line between B- and C+ is the cutoff… for now. There doesn’t appear to be a “Slowbro tier,” there’s a clear line. So to keep things in line with other tiers, unless there’s significant push from PU and/or ZU players, let’s go with B-/C+ as the cutoff line. Everything above the line is PU, everything below is ZU.

Thanks for your work on this Volk, and to everyone who submitted a VR and/or has made a positive contribution to this fun tier!
 
I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

This VR was made from contributions from top placers in the tournament (in no particular order): Ice Yazu, stunner047, TehTayTeh, Hayburner, nicole7735, Ctown6, chub, Ema Skye, Torchic, chuva de perereca, royzin, and MrSoup. Thank you for your submissions!

A few caveats before we get into this VR:

1) This was made entirely through me aggregating data and drawing conclusions on where lines should be drawn between tiers and sub-tiers. This means they may be a bit subjective. I will publish the raw data later so you can all tell me how wrong I was to draw the lines where I did. This sentence will become a link when I do publish the raw data.

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

3) I didn't get a chance to reach out to the following players for VR submissions:
fatBatman
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
I apologize for not reaching out to you all sooner, but I was busier than I expected. If any of you would still like to send me a VR, you are eligible to do so. I will update this post to reflect your submissions as soon as I can. If you wish to contribute, please send your VRs to me as soon as possible!

Without further ado, the new PU VR:
View attachment 486872

Pinsir and Fearow actually tied for the #2 spot by average. The spot was awarded to Pinsir, as it had a higher median rating.

In addition to being ranked lower than all Pokemon above, the Pokemon in D and F Rank were included in the VRs of notably fewer people. Most of the Pokemon in D Rank were ranked by around half the pool while every Pokemon in F Rank was ranked by three or fewer people. If a Pokemon was ranked even once, it is shown here.

Coming Soon!

Thank you to all who contributed! Cheers to a fruitful year for RBY PU!
Question: With Arcanine Being Mediocre in the tier, will it end up dropping to ZU, or will it just languish in ZUBL?
 
Back
Top