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RBY Tiers
- Thread starter Justin8649
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Victreebell isnt really better than venusaur, Venusaur has enough attack and Special to work with, and Viccy cant really switching into anything physical. Stun Spore is probably a waste on Viccy anyway and their standard movesets are the same. You could go with the Wrap set but it doesnt really function as well.
In conclusion its really up to personal preference, with Viccy having more attack, and Venusaur more attack and speed(not much stuff in this bracket though), and viccy having a wider variety of moves.
Other than that i agree with mostly what ano has said, except i think articuno still belongs in BL, its is walled absolutely by starmie, and it just lacks the punch to kill chansey, granted with support it might work, but your much better off with zapdos. Oh and it can stall the fuck out of everyone ._.
In conclusion its really up to personal preference, with Viccy having more attack, and Venusaur more attack and speed(not much stuff in this bracket though), and viccy having a wider variety of moves.
Other than that i agree with mostly what ano has said, except i think articuno still belongs in BL, its is walled absolutely by starmie, and it just lacks the punch to kill chansey, granted with support it might work, but your much better off with zapdos. Oh and it can stall the fuck out of everyone ._.
Ok, So I finally got round to changing the tiers.
I moved MrMime back into borderline, Dugtrio to UU and Graveler out of borderline.
I also finally got round to editing a whole crapload of the analyses as I had been planning on doing for ages.. (venusaur, charizard, beedrill, nidoking, venomoth, victreebel, primeape, persian, dugtrio, dodrio, gengar, starmie, mrmime, scyther, tauros, aerodactyl, and arti)
Have a nice day.
I moved MrMime back into borderline, Dugtrio to UU and Graveler out of borderline.
I also finally got round to editing a whole crapload of the analyses as I had been planning on doing for ages.. (venusaur, charizard, beedrill, nidoking, venomoth, victreebel, primeape, persian, dugtrio, dodrio, gengar, starmie, mrmime, scyther, tauros, aerodactyl, and arti)
Have a nice day.
...
Don't know about anyone else, but don't you think we should add a couple extra tiers? I think there's quite a difference between the use of Gengar and the use of Exeggutor, or between Sandslash and Mr. Mime, or between Tangela and Pidgeotto.
Or, maybe you guys won't care...it's not really necessarily aside from just making things a bit more specific.
On another note, these boards need to rip off AH and get a Koffing Icon...heh, and just now I look over to the side and it has them! Genius!
Don't know about anyone else, but don't you think we should add a couple extra tiers? I think there's quite a difference between the use of Gengar and the use of Exeggutor, or between Sandslash and Mr. Mime, or between Tangela and Pidgeotto.
Or, maybe you guys won't care...it's not really necessarily aside from just making things a bit more specific.
On another note, these boards need to rip off AH and get a Koffing Icon...heh, and just now I look over to the side and it has them! Genius!
EDIT: FE doesn't work on NetBattle? *wishes he could convince Masamune XGP to get it to work* I mean...a broken move? Come on. =P Is he trying to stay exactly true to the GB version? But, why not just stay to true to Stadium, since that is most likely what the developers wanted? (though I do hate the idea of recharging Hyper Beam no matter what) </in vain>
After examining the lists finally...
Poliwrath and Vaporeon need to be moved up to borderline. Vaporeon has incredible stamina and can sweep with Focus Energy and 318 special...not easy to stop. Its CH Surf will take off 75% from an Electabuzz. Poliwrath has incredible stamina, as well, is very versatile and unpredictable (can Hypnosis, can Amnesia...oh, and don't forget Earthquake)... Also, I'd considering moving Flareon to borderline...great power for a fire type, plus Focus Energy.
As for Nidoking vs. Nidoqueen...Nidoking is actually much better...Focus Energy + Better Speed+Attack = better sweeping. Though, not necessarily a reason to place them on different tiers, of course.
Remember, everyone...Tangela > Venomoth. If you move up Venomoth for whatever reason, Tangela should be moved, as well.
After examining the lists finally...
Poliwrath and Vaporeon need to be moved up to borderline. Vaporeon has incredible stamina and can sweep with Focus Energy and 318 special...not easy to stop. Its CH Surf will take off 75% from an Electabuzz. Poliwrath has incredible stamina, as well, is very versatile and unpredictable (can Hypnosis, can Amnesia...oh, and don't forget Earthquake)... Also, I'd considering moving Flareon to borderline...great power for a fire type, plus Focus Energy.
As for Nidoking vs. Nidoqueen...Nidoking is actually much better...Focus Energy + Better Speed+Attack = better sweeping. Though, not necessarily a reason to place them on different tiers, of course.
Remember, everyone...Tangela > Venomoth. If you move up Venomoth for whatever reason, Tangela should be moved, as well.
Just ask GK with his most recent battle with me. ;) Arcanine really is good all-round with stats equal to that of Exeggutor (tied for 8th best stats in RBY, if I remember correctly). It wouldn't hurt to move it up to borderline, but I guess it doesn't really DOMINATE the UU.
Reflect + Dig lets it "beat" Golem/Rhydon (where by beat I mean make them switch to Starmie or whatever, but Arcanine won't lose to them), Body Slam can sneak some PARs on (BAN ME PLEASE) Starmies or something, and the ability to 2HKO Eggy is otherwise a rare trait among even standard pokemon. I think Arcanine is competitive enough to be usable in standard play, placing it in UU is an insult. On a similar note, I would probably argue Ninetales should be placed as BL too since you never know what wacky things Confuse Ray can do for you.
Poli should definitely be BL as well. I'd argue for Vaporeon regardless of the status of working FE or not, but in the latter case I'm sure there's not much support for it so meh. Flareon I'd only consider a maybe even with working FE, so he can stay down. Only reason Venusaur/Victreebel belong in BL is because of Psychic weakness... :(
Nidoking outspeeds nothing important that Nidoqueen doesn't also outspeed, except other Nidokings. If not equal to, it's barely better than her. Working FE would help, but the Ice/Water/Psychic/Ground weaknesses basically ensure it's 2HKOed by almost every common pokemon around and most of those outspeed him anyway.
Poli should definitely be BL as well. I'd argue for Vaporeon regardless of the status of working FE or not, but in the latter case I'm sure there's not much support for it so meh. Flareon I'd only consider a maybe even with working FE, so he can stay down. Only reason Venusaur/Victreebel belong in BL is because of Psychic weakness... :(
Nidoking outspeeds nothing important that Nidoqueen doesn't also outspeed, except other Nidokings. If not equal to, it's barely better than her. Working FE would help, but the Ice/Water/Psychic/Ground weaknesses basically ensure it's 2HKOed by almost every common pokemon around and most of those outspeed him anyway.
I'm proposing that with the revolution of Wrap type moves:
Tangela should move to BL. Doublepowder and EQ resist was already putting it near the top of the UU quality. Bind I think pushes it over the cusp.
Rapidash sucks enough even with Fire Spin to stay in UU.
The same is probably true with Lickitung as is with Rapidash. Even with Wrap, it won't do much unless it has a Swords Dance down. Then again, it gets STAB on Wrap and Swords Dance is a quality move. Even if we don't want to bump it up tier wise, it probably deserves more respect as it could really cause teams trouble with para support. If only it were faster than at least Snorlax...
Arbok is Arkok and is probably the worst Wrap Pokemon. I suppose it is now a better UU at least, as irrelevant as that is to the topic at hand.
Dragonite really belongs in standard now. He's a major force with Agility + Wrap and monster attack to back that Wrap up. I have seen arguments that he's better than Tauros. While I would heavily challenge that, the fact that you can even attempt such an argument is saying something. I would think he's definately better than a Pokemon like Slowbro as his Wrap gimmick is more potent than Slowbro's Amnesia gimmick by quite a margin.
Cloyster might deserve consideration for standard too. He is that cool after all since he takes on standard Tauros better than anyone and has Clamp. I know this has been debated a lot, but I think Cloyster is a good fit for a standard Pokemon.
I think this list is relatively old since Wrap got love fairly recently. I think we should think about how Wrap helps out some Pokemon and tier them accordingly. I don't think it has any affect on other Pokemon except making Gengar better, but he's well in standard anyway so that side of things doesn't matter.
Tangela should move to BL. Doublepowder and EQ resist was already putting it near the top of the UU quality. Bind I think pushes it over the cusp.
Rapidash sucks enough even with Fire Spin to stay in UU.
The same is probably true with Lickitung as is with Rapidash. Even with Wrap, it won't do much unless it has a Swords Dance down. Then again, it gets STAB on Wrap and Swords Dance is a quality move. Even if we don't want to bump it up tier wise, it probably deserves more respect as it could really cause teams trouble with para support. If only it were faster than at least Snorlax...
Arbok is Arkok and is probably the worst Wrap Pokemon. I suppose it is now a better UU at least, as irrelevant as that is to the topic at hand.
Dragonite really belongs in standard now. He's a major force with Agility + Wrap and monster attack to back that Wrap up. I have seen arguments that he's better than Tauros. While I would heavily challenge that, the fact that you can even attempt such an argument is saying something. I would think he's definately better than a Pokemon like Slowbro as his Wrap gimmick is more potent than Slowbro's Amnesia gimmick by quite a margin.
Cloyster might deserve consideration for standard too. He is that cool after all since he takes on standard Tauros better than anyone and has Clamp. I know this has been debated a lot, but I think Cloyster is a good fit for a standard Pokemon.
I think this list is relatively old since Wrap got love fairly recently. I think we should think about how Wrap helps out some Pokemon and tier them accordingly. I don't think it has any affect on other Pokemon except making Gengar better, but he's well in standard anyway so that side of things doesn't matter.
lol have you ever even played RBY or UU? No. You have no idea what you are saying.
Here is what tangela does: Double Powders. Dies. Arcanine owns it, random waters with Blizzard own it. Bind is useless in UU. It just sucks lol. Seriously, Tangela has no finisher moves to use with Bind. By the way.. having EQ resistance means nothing in UU. Nobody uses EQ in UU. Golem/Rhydon/Sandslash are in OU/BL.
Dragonite to OU = stupid. People have been trying to abuse agiliwrap for a while and failed horribly. It isn't seeing much use anymore seeing how fragile he is to the ever common ice moves.
Cloyster to OU = stupid. 100% walled by the Starmie/Lapras/Slowbro/Chansey/Gengar/Alakazam on everybody's team. Clamp isn't going to do shit to Gengar or Zams insanely high special. Cloyster gets 2HKOd by basically every special attack. Huge lack of movepool.
Maybe you should play a game before you decide to have a say of how it has changed. Wrap is a horrible strategy.
Here is what tangela does: Double Powders. Dies. Arcanine owns it, random waters with Blizzard own it. Bind is useless in UU. It just sucks lol. Seriously, Tangela has no finisher moves to use with Bind. By the way.. having EQ resistance means nothing in UU. Nobody uses EQ in UU. Golem/Rhydon/Sandslash are in OU/BL.
Dragonite to OU = stupid. People have been trying to abuse agiliwrap for a while and failed horribly. It isn't seeing much use anymore seeing how fragile he is to the ever common ice moves.
Cloyster to OU = stupid. 100% walled by the Starmie/Lapras/Slowbro/Chansey/Gengar/Alakazam on everybody's team. Clamp isn't going to do shit to Gengar or Zams insanely high special. Cloyster gets 2HKOd by basically every special attack. Huge lack of movepool.
Maybe you should play a game before you decide to have a say of how it has changed. Wrap is a horrible strategy.
Tangela has the attack power of... a pile of wet noodles. And if double powder and EQ resistance is all else it takes to be considered BL, then let's toss in Butterfree too. Except Butterfree is garbage, kinda like Tangela. God only knows how many times Tangela needs to use Bind to even begin to do anything resembling damage, let alone do enough to bring the opponent in range of a killing blow from Tangela's remaining attack and complete lack of power.
Arbok is totally better than Lickitung. Especially if you're basing it off retarded Wrap, seeing as how Arbok can Glare and actually outspeeds SOMETHING. Better to have Glare than be ENTIRELY useless; well Lickitung can PAR 30% of the time I guess. Wash-up either way, but the discussion with Lesm I had about pokemon worse than Pidgeot stems me to make notion of Arbok's superiority here.
Cloyster can switch into Tauros... and that's it. Clamp is a-ok, but worthless as a trapping move since Cloyster is slower than everything important except the Ground pokemon it already kills by default. Cloyster is otherwise slow, weak, and not sturdy at all on the Special end with its abysmal HP.
The only "revolution" of Wrap-type attacks is the lame annoyance caused by using them. Their damage is minimal, a weak supplement at best, and more importantly they waste a moveslot. Victreebel and Dragonite are the only candidates already good enough to even bother trying to be standard with it, Victreebel basically being eternally BL just for being weak to Psychic and Dragonite, well...
Tauros is fast. Faster than Dragonite. It doesn't need to waste a moveslot to become fast. Oh sure, it's not as fast as Dragonite with Agility, but it doesn't waste a turn to do it either and already outspeeds the majority of pokemon, plus Starmie and Chansey don't OHKO it.
Tauros is powerful. Dragonite is power too, but it lacks STAB. Tauros deals a good 20% more damage than Dragonite thanks to STAB. Tauros can pack EQ for Gengars and Countering Chanseys, while Dragonite is forced to plink away with weak-ass elemental damage on Gengar and hope Wrap never misses on Chansey, since either its T-Wave or Ice Beam will make you a sad panda.
Tauros is reliable. There's a reason it's widely considered the most dangerous pokemon in RBY. Tauros requires absolutely no set-up to kick ass. Tauros isn't getting OHKOed by anything short of an actual OHKO because it has (essentially) no weaknesses. Tauros deals damage non-elementally, whose few resistances are covered easily by Blizzard and EQ. Nothing rivals its sheer power but Snorlax, who relies on tanking hits to dish them back and has no crit rate to speak of.
Dragonite? Oh well, Dragon/Flying gets some nifty traits, too bad the only one of any use is Ground immunity. Ice makes it cry, which is a fairly common attacking type. Its high versatility means little when it takes 2-3 moves of various elemental properties (Surf, Tbolt, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, whatever) just to match the power Tauros gets in its one primary attack, Body Slam, which Dragonite himself is far less effective with. Doesn't get any good non-Normal attacks, so he's at the mercy of Gengar and the occasional Counter pokemon far more than Tauros is who has EQ to circumvent both occurances.
Wrap is a cheesy gimmick, but it ruins Dragonite's versatility, especially in conjunction with Agility. Dropping T-Wave, which is the most likely, you lose a valuable team support skill. PAR is the gift that keeps on giving, allowing your entire TEAM to be faster than the enemy pokemon now plus the 25% FP chance, but once an Agility Dragonite dies it has does all it can do. Next likely is dropping Tbolt, which loses you your guaranteed SE hit on the guaranteed Ice users (Starmie/Lapras), useful for hitting them hard on the switch with. Dropping Ice Beam [or even Surf] or Hyper Beam is suicide, allowing you to be walled by Golem/Rhydon or require far more reliance on Wrap's shaky accuracy to wear the opponent down since you lack a reliable killing blow.
The main issue is Wrap's shaky accuracy. One 80% Hydro Pump or 85% Fire Blast is often worth it for the power, but Wrap has no power. That 85% quickly loses its fair reliability when you're forced to repeat it 3-5 times to get your target within killing range of a conventional attack (which isn't helped by Hyper Beam's 90% either). You can consider yourself pretty lucky if you manage to Wrap more than a single pokemon to death. And a 1-for-1 trade isn't bad, but just a regular ol' non-Wrapping Dragonite can garner a lot more "kill support" with T-Wave alone while still supplanting with conventional high-powered Hyper Beams and SE BoltBeam attacks than a Wrapping version can do by itself.
Wrap, better than Amnesia? Amnesia makes you impervious to non-CH Special attacks not to mention vastly increases killing power. Between having to navigate through a mine field of Recovers and FPs, Starmie has a legitimate chance to lose to a Tobybro in its attempts to CH Tbolt the thing. Huge Defense lets it tank anything but Rhydon and Tauros (former hits too hard, latter crits too much) who are only a problem if they switch in the same turn as a Rest, which lets it tank status (not it can outspeed things with its own T-Wave) and keeps it alive. The only Special attacks even remotely likely to do anything is Starmie or Gengar praying for an opportune crit. Heck, Slowbro's terrible crit rate even helps in the fact that RBY crits ignore all stat alterations. Slowbro's only major weakness seems to be the fact it's slower than Rhydon. And Amnesia is what makes RBY Mewtwo the most vastly overpowered pokemon in any generation of the games; I'm sure he'd be THRILLED to have Wrap instead of Amnesia.
The quoted material is quite possibly the worst paragraph of text anybody has ever written about competitive pokemon.
Arbok is totally better than Lickitung. Especially if you're basing it off retarded Wrap, seeing as how Arbok can Glare and actually outspeeds SOMETHING. Better to have Glare than be ENTIRELY useless; well Lickitung can PAR 30% of the time I guess. Wash-up either way, but the discussion with Lesm I had about pokemon worse than Pidgeot stems me to make notion of Arbok's superiority here.
Cloyster can switch into Tauros... and that's it. Clamp is a-ok, but worthless as a trapping move since Cloyster is slower than everything important except the Ground pokemon it already kills by default. Cloyster is otherwise slow, weak, and not sturdy at all on the Special end with its abysmal HP.
The only "revolution" of Wrap-type attacks is the lame annoyance caused by using them. Their damage is minimal, a weak supplement at best, and more importantly they waste a moveslot. Victreebel and Dragonite are the only candidates already good enough to even bother trying to be standard with it, Victreebel basically being eternally BL just for being weak to Psychic and Dragonite, well...
Better than Tauros. Are you absolutely FUCKING nuts? God only knows where you could've seen this argument. Sure, go ahead and ATTEMPT the argument. Hell, I can ATTEMPT to argue that Metapod is better than Mewtwo. Argument about anything is technically possible, but trying to argue something as blatantly WRONG as this would just make you look like the dumbest dumbass in the history of dumbassery.
Tauros is fast. Faster than Dragonite. It doesn't need to waste a moveslot to become fast. Oh sure, it's not as fast as Dragonite with Agility, but it doesn't waste a turn to do it either and already outspeeds the majority of pokemon, plus Starmie and Chansey don't OHKO it.
Tauros is powerful. Dragonite is power too, but it lacks STAB. Tauros deals a good 20% more damage than Dragonite thanks to STAB. Tauros can pack EQ for Gengars and Countering Chanseys, while Dragonite is forced to plink away with weak-ass elemental damage on Gengar and hope Wrap never misses on Chansey, since either its T-Wave or Ice Beam will make you a sad panda.
Tauros is reliable. There's a reason it's widely considered the most dangerous pokemon in RBY. Tauros requires absolutely no set-up to kick ass. Tauros isn't getting OHKOed by anything short of an actual OHKO because it has (essentially) no weaknesses. Tauros deals damage non-elementally, whose few resistances are covered easily by Blizzard and EQ. Nothing rivals its sheer power but Snorlax, who relies on tanking hits to dish them back and has no crit rate to speak of.
Dragonite? Oh well, Dragon/Flying gets some nifty traits, too bad the only one of any use is Ground immunity. Ice makes it cry, which is a fairly common attacking type. Its high versatility means little when it takes 2-3 moves of various elemental properties (Surf, Tbolt, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, whatever) just to match the power Tauros gets in its one primary attack, Body Slam, which Dragonite himself is far less effective with. Doesn't get any good non-Normal attacks, so he's at the mercy of Gengar and the occasional Counter pokemon far more than Tauros is who has EQ to circumvent both occurances.
Wrap is a cheesy gimmick, but it ruins Dragonite's versatility, especially in conjunction with Agility. Dropping T-Wave, which is the most likely, you lose a valuable team support skill. PAR is the gift that keeps on giving, allowing your entire TEAM to be faster than the enemy pokemon now plus the 25% FP chance, but once an Agility Dragonite dies it has does all it can do. Next likely is dropping Tbolt, which loses you your guaranteed SE hit on the guaranteed Ice users (Starmie/Lapras), useful for hitting them hard on the switch with. Dropping Ice Beam [or even Surf] or Hyper Beam is suicide, allowing you to be walled by Golem/Rhydon or require far more reliance on Wrap's shaky accuracy to wear the opponent down since you lack a reliable killing blow.
The main issue is Wrap's shaky accuracy. One 80% Hydro Pump or 85% Fire Blast is often worth it for the power, but Wrap has no power. That 85% quickly loses its fair reliability when you're forced to repeat it 3-5 times to get your target within killing range of a conventional attack (which isn't helped by Hyper Beam's 90% either). You can consider yourself pretty lucky if you manage to Wrap more than a single pokemon to death. And a 1-for-1 trade isn't bad, but just a regular ol' non-Wrapping Dragonite can garner a lot more "kill support" with T-Wave alone while still supplanting with conventional high-powered Hyper Beams and SE BoltBeam attacks than a Wrapping version can do by itself.
Wrap, better than Amnesia? Amnesia makes you impervious to non-CH Special attacks not to mention vastly increases killing power. Between having to navigate through a mine field of Recovers and FPs, Starmie has a legitimate chance to lose to a Tobybro in its attempts to CH Tbolt the thing. Huge Defense lets it tank anything but Rhydon and Tauros (former hits too hard, latter crits too much) who are only a problem if they switch in the same turn as a Rest, which lets it tank status (not it can outspeed things with its own T-Wave) and keeps it alive. The only Special attacks even remotely likely to do anything is Starmie or Gengar praying for an opportune crit. Heck, Slowbro's terrible crit rate even helps in the fact that RBY crits ignore all stat alterations. Slowbro's only major weakness seems to be the fact it's slower than Rhydon. And Amnesia is what makes RBY Mewtwo the most vastly overpowered pokemon in any generation of the games; I'm sure he'd be THRILLED to have Wrap instead of Amnesia.
The quoted material is quite possibly the worst paragraph of text anybody has ever written about competitive pokemon.
You highly underrate Wrap. Slow damage is just as good as fast damage in a game where only some things can heal, and you're really underrating how much of a lategame sweep threat a competent Wrapper is and how much minor damage a lesser wrapper can do, and you're certainly ignoring the tactical use of free switches in either case. I'm not the only person who is in support of Wrap; look back in this forum for plenty of other examples of Wrap support. It's a good move, and having it makes it better. I could go into a longer refutation with the whole point by point buisiness, but I'm getting sick of this pattern that's developing, and it's not like there's much to say to "have you ever played RBY or UU" other than "yes I have; have you?" which is getting nowhere fast.
I have but three comments to the above post.
How well a Pokemon does against other Pokemon on the same tier isn't very important in terms of the argument for it moving up a tier. So what if Tangela's advantages mean less in a tier that I'm arguing it doesn't belong it(even though I'll disagree with you about Bind)? Doublely so when I just called for a re-evaluation and didn't throw myself behind it needing to move up.
Every Pokemon has counters, and doing poorly against some standards and well against others doesn't mean you are bad. Having a fatal weakness isn't so bad when you also have large advantages to accompany it.
Dragonite > Tauros is a claim I have heard. I obviously do not agree with it; I said clearly that I did not agree with it when I brought it up. The fact that it's been claimed by some is what I was noting. Dragonite does have just as much if not more fun against a weakened, paralyzed team as Tauros does though so the two can function in a similar capacity at times.
I have but three comments to the above post.
How well a Pokemon does against other Pokemon on the same tier isn't very important in terms of the argument for it moving up a tier. So what if Tangela's advantages mean less in a tier that I'm arguing it doesn't belong it(even though I'll disagree with you about Bind)? Doublely so when I just called for a re-evaluation and didn't throw myself behind it needing to move up.
Every Pokemon has counters, and doing poorly against some standards and well against others doesn't mean you are bad. Having a fatal weakness isn't so bad when you also have large advantages to accompany it.
Dragonite > Tauros is a claim I have heard. I obviously do not agree with it; I said clearly that I did not agree with it when I brought it up. The fact that it's been claimed by some is what I was noting. Dragonite does have just as much if not more fun against a weakened, paralyzed team as Tauros does though so the two can function in a similar capacity at times.
This is a thread about tiers, not what pokemon are capable of doing.
The standard tiers are the most common and powerful pokemon. The underused pokemon are the ones that suck and rarely see useage. The borderline pokemon are the UU pokemon that are too strong for UU and/or used quite often in standard play.
Tangela is never used in standard play. It is walled by Gengar/Exeggutor 100%. It is basically Eggy without the benefits of: Psychic typing and insane special. It sucks. That is all there is to say.
Cloyster is dominated in standard play outside of being able to switch in on Tauros/Snorlax (to a certain degree. If you get CHd or Paralyzed on the switch in, you are basically useless/screwed). This is another pokemon that deserves the ranking it has. It just isn't useful at all.
Dragonite is a horrible choice for moving up with a 4x Ice Weakness. Paralyzation is very common in RBY. IF you manage to pull off Agility without getting paralyzed, Wrap WILL miss. You WILL get Paralyzed/Ice'd by whatever pokemon is sitting and waiting for the miss.
You haven't given any viable reasons to move any of these pokemon in rank. The first 2 are so easily walled in standard play with their HORRIBLE stats and HORRIBLE movepools. The second one has decent stats and a nice movepool, but it is 4x weak to one of the most common attacks in the game and it doesn't really have the killing capabilites of an Alakazam (Strongest special attack in the standard game with an insane CH rate) or Tauros (STAB Body Slam, High Attack, High CH Rate (good speed obviously), and Blizzard to go with it.)
You will be very hard pressed to find a pokemon in RBY that you can just Agility against with Dragonite.
If you are against Starmie, Alakazam, Chansey, Hypno, Exeggutor, you will get TWaved.
If you are against Snorlax, Golem, Exeggutor, you could get exploded on.
If you are against Tauros, you could get Body Slam PARd, Blizzarded (This will kill if you have taken ANY other hit by now.) If it CHs, game over. If you do manage to get the Agility off without this happening, you WILL miss eventually and get hurt.
If you are against Gengar, you won't be doing shit, you will miss and get hit.
Sure you can use it for a free switch, but they can switch too. It really isn't worth the waste of a moveslot or the waste of using a shitty pokemon.
The standard tiers are the most common and powerful pokemon. The underused pokemon are the ones that suck and rarely see useage. The borderline pokemon are the UU pokemon that are too strong for UU and/or used quite often in standard play.
Tangela is never used in standard play. It is walled by Gengar/Exeggutor 100%. It is basically Eggy without the benefits of: Psychic typing and insane special. It sucks. That is all there is to say.
Cloyster is dominated in standard play outside of being able to switch in on Tauros/Snorlax (to a certain degree. If you get CHd or Paralyzed on the switch in, you are basically useless/screwed). This is another pokemon that deserves the ranking it has. It just isn't useful at all.
Dragonite is a horrible choice for moving up with a 4x Ice Weakness. Paralyzation is very common in RBY. IF you manage to pull off Agility without getting paralyzed, Wrap WILL miss. You WILL get Paralyzed/Ice'd by whatever pokemon is sitting and waiting for the miss.
You haven't given any viable reasons to move any of these pokemon in rank. The first 2 are so easily walled in standard play with their HORRIBLE stats and HORRIBLE movepools. The second one has decent stats and a nice movepool, but it is 4x weak to one of the most common attacks in the game and it doesn't really have the killing capabilites of an Alakazam (Strongest special attack in the standard game with an insane CH rate) or Tauros (STAB Body Slam, High Attack, High CH Rate (good speed obviously), and Blizzard to go with it.)
You will be very hard pressed to find a pokemon in RBY that you can just Agility against with Dragonite.
If you are against Starmie, Alakazam, Chansey, Hypno, Exeggutor, you will get TWaved.
If you are against Snorlax, Golem, Exeggutor, you could get exploded on.
If you are against Tauros, you could get Body Slam PARd, Blizzarded (This will kill if you have taken ANY other hit by now.) If it CHs, game over. If you do manage to get the Agility off without this happening, you WILL miss eventually and get hurt.
If you are against Gengar, you won't be doing shit, you will miss and get hit.
Sure you can use it for a free switch, but they can switch too. It really isn't worth the waste of a moveslot or the waste of using a shitty pokemon.
Tangela does the following: Sleep, Stun Spore, die. Bind has awful accuracy and Tangela has awful speed and attack. All it can wall is basically Dugtrio and come in once or twice on an Electabuzz to Stun Spore it. It isn't broken... at all. This "Wrap Revolution" doesn't suddenly make everyone use Tangela because of Bind.. I hardly ever use Bind on it. Arbok and Rapidash on the other hand are far better Trappers.
Wrap isn't "underrated". Wrap is dumb and will miss, just because someone gets lucky and wins with a Wrap Dragonite doesn't mean it is supposed to be a staple Pokemon. It is just luck, the same thing is if you keep missing with 99.6% accuracy moves and I rape your team with a CHing Beedrill.
Wrap isn't "underrated". Wrap is dumb and will miss, just because someone gets lucky and wins with a Wrap Dragonite doesn't mean it is supposed to be a staple Pokemon. It is just luck, the same thing is if you keep missing with 99.6% accuracy moves and I rape your team with a CHing Beedrill.
The best, and sadly only way to explain why Tangela deserves to be in UU:
Standard: Eggy+Jynx+Gengar=Win
Borderline: Haunter+Venusaur+Victreebel=Win
Tangela gets outclassed even in UU with Venomoth taking the lead position for awesome Pokemon. The only thing Tangela does nice in UU is wall Electabuzz temporarily.
I'm not saying Tangela is not a cool ball of vines, but it isn't very noteworthy. It used to be, but not anymore. We learned better.
Standard: Eggy+Jynx+Gengar=Win
Borderline: Haunter+Venusaur+Victreebel=Win
Tangela gets outclassed even in UU with Venomoth taking the lead position for awesome Pokemon. The only thing Tangela does nice in UU is wall Electabuzz temporarily.
I'm not saying Tangela is not a cool ball of vines, but it isn't very noteworthy. It used to be, but not anymore. We learned better.
I wanna take Electabuzz out of UU.. This only leaves two Electrics, but at the moment there is really only 1.. The stupid electric type has such a clear hierachy except for Electrode and Magneton IMO. With no Dugtrio, Electrabuzz has pretty much no counter ATM.. I definitely think it needs to go..
This also probably means removing Golduck and Poliwrath..
Have a nice day.
This also probably means removing Golduck and Poliwrath..
Have a nice day.
Tangela basically stops Electabuzz in it's tracks..then you can go on to paralyze/put it to sleep and kill it off with something else. You can also PAR it with something else, other Electabuzz/Arcanine can easily finish off a PARd Electabuzz. Machamp, Flareon, Rapidash, etc. can go up against it.
All Im worried about is Graveller. Why on Earth is he UU (npi). He should be BL, for various reasons. Hes just too good for UU, with STABed Earthquake, Explosion, Body Slam, STABed Rock Slide and a whopping physical stats which make any physical UU sweeper and any Electric or Fire type cry and beg for mercy. Ive used Graveller in UU tournaments before, and once the whole team is paralyzed, everything simply goes downhill for them.
Sully and AW
Sully and AW
He is right, it is a mini Golem, just like Haunter is a mini Gengar. JMC used Haunter in the RBY BL Tournament, so maybe Haunter should be allowed in BL also.
Whew. Looks like some folk aren't getting wiis for Christmas.
This just in: Its just a game, relax.
Folks have good points and props to justin for the work put in.
Personally - and this is OPINION ;p don't throw a tantrum (not aimed at anyone in particular) - I think anything that isn't standard should be acceptable in under-used play. I usually only play once a year for a few weeks now but when I was playing obsessively, underused just meant underused.
It doesn't have to mean bad, poor or completely defenceless. Underused teams used to be an opportunity to have some practice with borderlines before bravely promoting them to a team part-full of standards.
It should be natural to have some pokemon better than others in every tier, and not legislated against.
If its a tournaments thats different, but generally I think the key thing is that UU is just for fun and comedy and shouldn't have any rule except 'dont use a standard' plus the usual clauses.
This just in: Its just a game, relax.
Folks have good points and props to justin for the work put in.
Personally - and this is OPINION ;p don't throw a tantrum (not aimed at anyone in particular) - I think anything that isn't standard should be acceptable in under-used play. I usually only play once a year for a few weeks now but when I was playing obsessively, underused just meant underused.
It doesn't have to mean bad, poor or completely defenceless. Underused teams used to be an opportunity to have some practice with borderlines before bravely promoting them to a team part-full of standards.
It should be natural to have some pokemon better than others in every tier, and not legislated against.
If its a tournaments thats different, but generally I think the key thing is that UU is just for fun and comedy and shouldn't have any rule except 'dont use a standard' plus the usual clauses.
- Status