Item Red Card

[tentaintcool]

I saw this item in the Battle Maison and have been really tempted to buy it. I was thinking it could be nice on certain suicide-like leads, as it counters / deters opposing 'mons from setting up on you.

For example, I was thinking of leading with a Klefki to lay down some spikes (and a t-wave). One of the main drawbacks I've found to this is opponents can take the harmlessness of this kind of lead to get a few DD's / Sword Dances / Baton Passes down.. Does this item seem viable in these sorts of situations? Would be grateful for thoughts.

 

[MagnetBoy]

yes that is usually the intent of the item, to stop boosters in their tracks. Most people just go for roar/whirlwind and whatnot though since items are so valuable and its hard to justify using an item slot on it. But yes if you want to use some one like klefki that can't phase then it might be worth it.

 

[Scoria Limit]

Does red card still fail if the holder is KO'd? If so, this would be wasted on anything that isn't a sturdy lead.

 

[dende5416]

yes that is usually the intent of the item, to stop boosters in their tracks. Most people just go for roar/whirlwind and whatnot though since items are so valuable and its hard to justify using an item slot on it. But yes if you want to use some one like klefki that can't phase then it might be worth it.

I was considering, as a gimmick, you could use it on a sweeper with Trick, go in against a different sweeper, trick to take their LO/Choice item, and proceed to sweep while having neutered their sweeper. Preferably on a sweeper that could possibly tank as well, so if you end up with leftovers or assault vest, you aren't screwed.

 

[Tikhaos]

Does red card still fail if the holder is KO'd? If so, this would be wasted on anything that isn't a sturdy lead.

Klefki can put up screens and almost ensure that it won't get OHKO'd so then it can use the red card and spread paralysis or potentially card another pokemon if it uses recycle

 

[Garagara]

If you can keep rocks up, might be a good thing for going up against talonflame. Two switch ins with SR and it's done

 

[tikidude]

Red Card is an awesome item. Had it on nearly all of my 5th gen teams. Forretress is the best user due to Sturdy. I invented a pretty sick set. Try this.

Forretress
Red Card
Sturdy
Relaxed
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 6 SpD
Stealth Rock/Spikes/Rapid Spin/Pain Split

Send out Forretress on a boosting sweeper after a KO. Preferably when there are no hazards on your side of the field. Your opponent will start to boost even more to get past Forry (if it's a physical attacker). Meanwhile you stack hazards. When they get to +6, use Pain Split. They'll hit you first, get switched out, lose all their boosts, and you heal by damaging their switch in. Generally you'll end up with a healthy Forretress and have max hazards on their side. Try it. You will never look back...

 

[s00pahFr0g]

I could also see it working on Carbink. It's not exactly the strongest option, but I would imagine they'd work out well together. Carbink's hidden ability is sturdy so it could also stay alive.

 

[tentaintcool]

Some interesting ideas here. I like the idea of it on a pokemon with sturdy! I think it could be a very handy item if it catches the opponent off guard- but losing the healing from leftovers (especially on something like klefki) could just be too big a sacrifice.

 

[TUO]

In BW OU, Red Card was used on Deoxys-D (before it was banned) to stop setup sweepers from setting up on Deoxys. It was a pretty niche item and could be used on some other Pokemon well like Forretress or Ferrothorn. The main problem is that outside of some niche purposes like Deoxys-D, you would rather want another item over Red Card. Forretress, Ferrothorn, and now Klefki would prefer leftovers, while other sturdy suicide leads prefer Custap Berry. Red Card is pretty nice on Sturdy pokemon in XY though, since I don't believe Custap Berry is present. Regardless, Red Card is a niche item that fulfills what it does pretty decently, and I expect to see it as an optional item to some Pokemon in the XY competitive scene.

 

[shack]

Red Card is an awesome item. Had it on nearly all of my 5th gen teams. Forretress is the best user due to Sturdy. I invented a pretty sick set. Try this.

Forretress
Red Card
Sturdy
Relaxed
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 6 SpD
Stealth Rock/Spikes/Rapid Spin/Pain Split

Send out Forretress on a boosting sweeper after a KO. Preferably when there are no hazards on your side of the field. Your opponent will start to boost even more to get past Forry (if it's a physical attacker). Meanwhile you stack hazards. When they get to +6, use Pain Split. They'll hit you first, get switched out, lose all their boosts, and you heal by damaging their switch in. Generally you'll end up with a healthy Forretress and have max hazards on their side. Try it. You will never look back...

Sick. Does Forretress get OHKO'd after the +6 boost and Sturdy keeps it alive or does it survive the first hit on it's own?


Has anyone tried this with Shuckle?

 

[xlxlxlxl]

Does Red Card force a switch if the holder gets OHKO'd? It didn't on Showdown when I tried Red Card Deoxys D last gen. If this is how it works in game, Red Card isn't gonna do a thing to stop setup sweepers without Sturdy.

 

[Jaroda]

I effing love this item on Mandibuzz. Getting to abuse STAB Knock Off clenches SO many matches when you remove vital Leftovers and Assault Vests.

Mandibuzz@Redcard
Overcoat
Impish/Calm 252 HP / 252 Df/SpD
~ Knock Off
~ Roost
~ Whirlwind
~ Taunt/Toxic/Foul Play

This guy is bulky enough you can easily Knock Off at least two items. Knock Off first turn. If they're going to attack and they're likely fast, use Knock Off again for the incomer. Depending who it is you can Roost or Whirlwind. This works even better with Sticky Web/Stealth Rock because Mandibuzz isn't slow by wall standards. It works really well paired with a Shuckle and Tyranitar since it doesn't take Sandstorm damage.

 

[tikidude]

Sick. Does Forretress get OHKO'd after the +6 boost and Sturdy keeps it alive or does it survive the first hit on it's own?


Has anyone tried this with Shuckle?

If the attack is special, Forretress survives with Sturdy. If the attack is physical (and not a fire type move), Forretress will take the hit on its own. :D

Does Red Card force a switch if the holder gets OHKO'd? It didn't on Showdown when I tried Red Card Deoxys D last gen. If this is how it works in game, Red Card isn't gonna do a thing to stop setup sweepers without Sturdy.

No, Red Card does not activate if the user is OHKO'd.

 

[tikidude]

Now that I think about it...Avalugg has Sturdy and Recover...with 95 HP and 184 defense.

 

[shack]

Now that I think about it...Avalugg has Sturdy and Recover...with 95 HP and 184 defense.

But no Pain Split, SR, or Spikes, just rapid spin. I don't think it would work the same. Probopass has sturdy, SR and pain split but 4x weakness to ground and fighting :/ Maybe that would work because it would lure in a lucario or whatever their main damage dealer is?

 

[Okuu]

But no Pain Split, SR, or Spikes, just rapid spin. I don't think it would work the same. Probopass has sturdy, SR and pain split but 4x weakness to ground and fighting :/ Maybe that would work because it would lure in a lucario or whatever their main damage dealer is?

It does have Sturdy, 117 base attack, Avalanche / EQ / Gyro Ball to chunk whatever comes in, and Rock Tomb / Bulldoze to get some minor damage and a speed drop in. Yes, it would highly appreciate hazards before-hand, but it still works fine as a disruptive force.

 

[shack]

It does have Sturdy, 117 base attack, Avalanche / EQ / Gyro Ball to chunk whatever comes in, and Rock Tomb / Bulldoze to get some minor damage and a speed drop in. Yes, it would highly appreciate hazards before-hand, but it still works fine as a disruptive force.

But wouldn't it just die on the next turn to whatever comes in after the red card if it just ate a boosted sweepers attack and is low on hp or at 1 hp from focus sash?

 

[Okuu]

But wouldn't it just die on the next turn to whatever comes in after the red card if it just ate a boosted sweepers attack and is low on hp or at 1 hp from focus sash?

That's a risk with using a Red Card. Just like using Roar could potentially drag out something that could kill you off. The benefit of Red Card (especially on something slow like Avalugg) is that after the opponent triggers it, they're forced to send out a random Pokemon, and -then- your Pokemon attacks. In the case that an opponent decides to attack into your Avalugg that's already out, you have the benefit of choosing the best move that will work against the remaining 1-5 Pokemon on their team. If they've got fast Pokemon, you can drop a Rock Tomb, and then once Avalugg dies next turn, you can revenge kill with a comparatively faster Pokemon, or force a switch and take advantage of the newly-attained momentum. If they've got already-weakened Pokemon, you can use Avalanche and have a good chance at outright killing something.

If you're switching a Red Carder into an attack, then yes, your point does come up. However, you'll have to weigh the options of how valuable it was to remove that sweeper from the field, which possible Pokemon would be sent out, etc. If you somehow let an Aegislash boost itself up to +6, then it might be worth switching your 100% HP Avalugg into it, in order to remove that three turns of boosting that were let by.

 

[shack]

That's a risk with using a Red Card. Just like using Roar could potentially drag out something that could kill you off. The benefit of Red Card (especially on something slow like Avalugg) is that after the opponent triggers it, they're forced to send out a random Pokemon, and -then- your Pokemon attacks. In the case that an opponent decides to attack into your Avalugg that's already out, you have the benefit of choosing the best move that will work against the remaining 1-5 Pokemon on their team. If they've got fast Pokemon, you can drop a Rock Tomb, and then once Avalugg dies next turn, you can revenge kill with a comparatively faster Pokemon, or force a switch and take advantage of the newly-attained momentum. If they've got already-weakened Pokemon, you can use Avalanche and have a good chance at outright killing something.

If you're switching a Red Carder into an attack, then yes, your point does come up. However, you'll have to weigh the options of how valuable it was to remove that sweeper from the field, which possible Pokemon would be sent out, etc. If you somehow let an Aegislash boost itself up to +6, then it might be worth switching your 100% HP Avalugg into it, in order to remove that three turns of boosting that were let by.

I guess that could work too. I tried it out a little yesterday. I guess it lets you get a free boosted avalanche on a random poke on the other team which if you're lucky will be SE

EDIT: I dunno if I'm liking this as an item slot anymore. One time use and it happens at the end of the turn so It's not like I get a free hit on a random poke on their team. It just seems not as useful unless you have a bunch of hazards or NEED to get someone off the field.

 

[Tuvillo]

Would Ditto be a viable user of this? I know he should be sticking to Scarf and all that, but hear me out.

On lower tiers, Bulk Up and Calm Mind seem to be much more popular. (Or any bulk-boosting is, actually) This means that Ditto can come in and take over their hard work, then kick them out. Downside is of course, that if the opponent boosts purely Atk or Speed, they'll be killing you 50% of the time. (Though the same can be said for you)

I guess it can also be a nice Choice Scarf bluff, and you can switch moves.

 

[Seiterman]

Would Ditto be a viable user of this? I know he should be sticking to Scarf and all that, but hear me out.

On lower tiers, Bulk Up and Calm Mind seem to be much more popular. (Or any bulk-boosting is, actually) This means that Ditto can come in and take over their hard work, then kick them out. Downside is of course, that if the opponent boosts purely Atk or Speed, they'll be killing you 50% of the time. (Though the same can be said for you)

I guess it can also be a nice Choice Scarf bluff, and you can switch moves.

Ditto's low base HP is not overwritten when it transforms, so in most cases it's significantly less bulky than its opponent. Even if it gets bulk boosts its opponent will probably be able to severely dent or KO it, since bulk-boosting moves typically also boost an applicable attacking stat (and Psyshock users can get past their own Calm Mind boosts.) Switching moves sounds nice, but isn't useful enough nor worth the cost of forgoing Choice Scarf.

Most importantly, think about what Red Card accomplishes over Choice Scarf. Scarf Ditto already takes care of bulk boosters pretty reliably.

 

[Jaroda]

Ditto's low base HP is not overwritten when it transforms, so in most cases it's significantly less bulky than its opponent. Even if it gets bulk boosts its opponent will probably be able to severely dent or KO it, since bulk-boosting moves typically also boost an applicable attacking stat (and Psyshock users can get past their own Calm Mind boosts.) Switching moves sounds nice, but isn't useful enough nor worth the cost of forgoing Choice Scarf.

Most importantly, think about what Red Card accomplishes over Choice Scarf. Scarf Ditto already takes care of bulk boosters pretty reliably.

The nice thing people always expect a Ditto to run scarf, and often switch to a counter instead. This gives you the opportunity to boost up further and hit with your coverage moves, it can be devastatingly brilliant really. Is it as reliable as Choice Scarf? Probably not as much.

 

[Seiterman]

The nice thing people always expect a Ditto to run scarf, and often switch to a counter instead. This gives you the opportunity to boost up further and hit with your coverage moves, it can be devastatingly brilliant really. Is it as reliable as Choice Scarf? Probably not as much.

I suppose that is true if you use Ditto early to mid game. It's more dependent on whether your opponent actually has a counter to their own mons, and if that counter was KO'd or not. Ditto works well as a deterrent or answer to set-up sweepers at any point in a match really, but thrives in the late game due to his miserable 5 pp moves and ability to sweep/clean up weakened teams with ease. Therefore I'm not so sure the counter thing is entirely relevant in the majority of matches.

Really though I would just run scarf for reliability. I think that while there are cases where Red Card is potentially a better item choice, Choice Scarf has more of those cases and you'll probably win more games with Scarf Ditto in the long run.

 

[Antonius the Great]

I found that Skarmory uses this thing very well. Sturdy, Roost, and hazards make her an excellent user imo and I always run it on her typical Spikes/Roost/Whirlwind/Brave Bird set, physically defensive of course. Since she's my lead she also completely screws up teams that try to lead with SS Cloyster and other set-up sweepers while getting hazards up. This item actually helps me very often with taking back momentum late-game too.