While Fire Stealth Rock would be awesome (Ferrothorn and all the Fire/Bugs loses half their health upon switching in? Yes please. Suddenly: Genesect is UU), this would exacerbate Dragon spam.
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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508
- Thread starter Huntofthelion
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That, and when you introduce Stealth Fire, Ice-types find themselves even more shafted than before.
Plus I find nerfing Steel-types to be a bad idea; Steel-types are among the only defensive Pokemon left. Nerf them, and suddenly our offense-out-the-nose metagame gets a lot more offensive yet.
Well, it would actually be a boon for Cloyster. Hm. Would it take Thick Fat into account? Because I would not be okay with Mamoswine losing 25% every time he switched in.
My biggest problem with stealth rock isn't always the fact that it would sap most of a pokemon's health if it's weak to it but the fact that once my pokemon's health is at a certain threshold. It's a dead weight where I have to stay in and suicide it or it becomes death fodder for some other pokemon in my team as a free switch in.
That's why I came up with the idea of Stealth rock never KO-ing a pokemon once it's reaches KO range but still decreasing it's health all the way down to 1 HP. Although I do like zyrefredric's idea of Stealth rock only taking away a percentage of a pokemon's current HP instead of total HP (ie if my pokemon had 4 HP left and it was 4x weak to rocks it would only lose 2 HP instead of 50% of it's total HP) Pokemon like Volcanora would still lose 50% of it's HP if it was at max HP
The reason why I came up with the idea , the way it is because I expected people would bring up that pokemon like Volcanora and Marvel Scale Dragonite could become broken if Stealth Rocks were nerfed too much. Which I do agree to a certain extent.
Overall though I do wish Stealth Rocks weren't as centralizing as it currently is and I wish I had more viable options for pokemon weak to rocks, but you can't have everything *sigh*.
That's why I came up with the idea of Stealth rock never KO-ing a pokemon once it's reaches KO range but still decreasing it's health all the way down to 1 HP. Although I do like zyrefredric's idea of Stealth rock only taking away a percentage of a pokemon's current HP instead of total HP (ie if my pokemon had 4 HP left and it was 4x weak to rocks it would only lose 2 HP instead of 50% of it's total HP) Pokemon like Volcanora would still lose 50% of it's HP if it was at max HP
The reason why I came up with the idea , the way it is because I expected people would bring up that pokemon like Volcanora and Marvel Scale Dragonite could become broken if Stealth Rocks were nerfed too much. Which I do agree to a certain extent.
Overall though I do wish Stealth Rocks weren't as centralizing as it currently is and I wish I had more viable options for pokemon weak to rocks, but you can't have everything *sigh*.
Another idea for stealth rock could be making it a stackable hazard like spikes. HOLD ON!
Either:
-----------1 stack/2 stacks
4x resist: 1.5625%/3.125%
2x resist: 3.125%/6.25%
Normal: 6.25%/12.5%
2x SE: 12.5%/25%
4x SE: 25%/50%
This isn't what I'd prefer, but it somewhat offers a middleground, creating a higher opportunity cost for setting up SR, but retaining the potency. A big part of why SR is as good as it is, is because it only takes 1 turn to set up.
With that said I think tieing hazard damage to type resists was a stupid idea in the first place, and honestly I think the best form of a rebalancing of stealth rock could come in the form of making it simpler, closer to what spikes is.
Something like, 12.5% to grounded pokemon and 25% to any non grounded pokemon. Balanced around spikes by the fact that you can't have multiple layers of it. Maybe adjusting the numbers downwards slightly 10/20% would be more appropriate (as there would be no resistance to it). The numbers in this example aren't important, the idea of removing SR from type effectiveness is the point.
I feel that this would still leave it competitive with other hazards, and still a deterent to multiscale, sturdy, and focus sash. While at the same time making a multitude of pokemon more viable. (yes this would be a nerf to levitate users, but I couldn't think of any other way to justify it, other than being "a layer of spikes that is more harmful to pokemon already immune to normal spikes damage")
Dealing 50% damage to any pokemon for merely switching in with 1 turn of set up was a stupid idea any way you look at it, volcarona included. Is keeping volcarona in OU that important that a shit ton of other pokemon couldn't become viable?
Either:
-----------1 stack/2 stacks
4x resist: 1.5625%/3.125%
2x resist: 3.125%/6.25%
Normal: 6.25%/12.5%
2x SE: 12.5%/25%
4x SE: 25%/50%
This isn't what I'd prefer, but it somewhat offers a middleground, creating a higher opportunity cost for setting up SR, but retaining the potency. A big part of why SR is as good as it is, is because it only takes 1 turn to set up.
With that said I think tieing hazard damage to type resists was a stupid idea in the first place, and honestly I think the best form of a rebalancing of stealth rock could come in the form of making it simpler, closer to what spikes is.
Something like, 12.5% to grounded pokemon and 25% to any non grounded pokemon. Balanced around spikes by the fact that you can't have multiple layers of it. Maybe adjusting the numbers downwards slightly 10/20% would be more appropriate (as there would be no resistance to it). The numbers in this example aren't important, the idea of removing SR from type effectiveness is the point.
I feel that this would still leave it competitive with other hazards, and still a deterent to multiscale, sturdy, and focus sash. While at the same time making a multitude of pokemon more viable. (yes this would be a nerf to levitate users, but I couldn't think of any other way to justify it, other than being "a layer of spikes that is more harmful to pokemon already immune to normal spikes damage")
Dealing 50% damage to any pokemon for merely switching in with 1 turn of set up was a stupid idea any way you look at it, volcarona included. Is keeping volcarona in OU that important that a shit ton of other pokemon couldn't become viable?
People loves Volcarona, and if people even banned evasion abilities JUST BECASE ONE POKÉMON, I think people could make the entire Pokémon world unviable with the motion of make it's favorite Pokémon the best of the best, that is. I still like my idea, because it's not hard to set two layers of hazard, and it's even harder to spin them, but even that could be a better solution to the actual problem, and make it more similar to Spikes, at least.
IF Volcarona if broken without SR, we ban it, and the same goes for Salamance, any other weak to it on OU that could be - maybe - broken without SR? No other one, with Dragonite you just need to broke it's Multiscale, if it deals 12% or 25% of damage, and you're ending the list, but of course, almost the 30% of the entire Pokémon world is unviable just for the current power of SR. :/
And the idea are not even remove SR, are just nerf it to the half of the power or cap it, or make it to be multi-turn set to the full power.
IF Volcarona if broken without SR, we ban it, and the same goes for Salamance, any other weak to it on OU that could be - maybe - broken without SR? No other one, with Dragonite you just need to broke it's Multiscale, if it deals 12% or 25% of damage, and you're ending the list, but of course, almost the 30% of the entire Pokémon world is unviable just for the current power of SR. :/
And the idea are not even remove SR, are just nerf it to the half of the power or cap it, or make it to be multi-turn set to the full power.
How about an item that erases weather? As a bonus, we could even let the Pokemon holding take half damage when switching in against weather. This way, literally anything could be a weather changer (by being a weather eraser) and people who want to rely on weather would have to keep their inducer alive until they know EVERY opponent's item, AND defeat any enemy weather / weather eraser.
I'd be more for Air Lock being buffed to erase weather (Cloud Nine blocks the effects while it's in, but weather returns when the user switches out) and giving BOTH better distribution. Giving any Pokémon the ability to break weather like that seems way too strong, even for giving up the item.
How about a reverse Stealth Rock, that you put on your side of the field, and it gives you health if you switch in? That would do a lot to revitalize stall, since switching your resists wouldn't be nearly as penalizing
Well I have some crazy ideas that probably will never happen, but this seems like the best place to post them.
1. Stealth Fighting/Stealth Grass - When you really look at stealth rock, these two types balance it out the best. Bug- and Flying-types that were weak receive a resist. However, the type that gets picked will be determined by whether you want to screw over Ice-types or further buff Steel-types.
2. Hazard Limit - This is something I haven't seen, but I would like to see something where you can have a maximum "Hazard Count" of 3, with Spikey stuff counting as 1 and Stealth stuff counting as 2. (So you could have 3 Spikes, 2 Toxic Spikes and 1 Spikes, Stealth Rock and 1 Spikes, Stealth Rock and 1 Toxic Spikes, or 1 Toxic Spikes and 2 Spikes). Might make things a little more manageable without changing too much.
3. Splitting up type chart - This is probably way out there, but here's my thought process: Say Jirachi uses Zen Headbutt, and Weavile switches in. Wouldn't you expect Weavile to be harmed by the headbutt portion, even if it was unharmed by the "zen" energy? Or when my Marshtomp used Mud Shot, wouldn't you expect him to be able to aim it off the ground and damage birds? I would think that immunities should only count for either physical or special attacks, not both.
4. Bring a GOOD defensive item - Eviolite was a good idea, but I feel that only gave NFEs a shot at contributing. We haven't really had a great defensive item everyone could use since Leftovers. Meanwhile we now have Life Orb, 3 Choice Items, and pinch berries on the offensive side. Maybe increase both defenses by 20% for a certain type.
5. Speed and Accuracy boosting move - Really this is aimed at Stone Miss users who could otherwise sweep. Also interesting on Moltres (he would easily rise out of RU with it) Not sure whether a 2 or 1 boost to speed would be appropriate to provide a worthwhile boost without being broken.
6. 55% Freezing Only Move - I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been thought up yet by GF. Maybe Freeze is so broken they can't dedicate a move to it. But we could just combine Freeze and Sleep clause and this would be mostly obsolete.
7. Sheer Force Nerf - I feel like the no Life Orb recoil thing was an accident, so while the power boost will still occur, you will still get worn down by Life Orb if you choose to use it. Maybe Choice Items will become more viable.
8. Sky Drop Fix - I mean, we know what it was supposed to do, and that didn't seem broken. Hopefully GF will catch on and fix it, right?
@ Lord of Bays: I agree with the Air Lock/Cloud Nine buffs. That would make weather a little more manageable. An item would be interesting as well.
@qedragonite: Reverse Stealth Rock would be fascinating. The only issue I have is how that would work with Rapid Spin. Would you have to balance their hazards and your opponent's on your side, or would you spinning remove their healing boost. This actually wouldn't be too hard to implement either, just edit Ingrain/Aqua Ring.
1. Stealth Fighting/Stealth Grass - When you really look at stealth rock, these two types balance it out the best. Bug- and Flying-types that were weak receive a resist. However, the type that gets picked will be determined by whether you want to screw over Ice-types or further buff Steel-types.
2. Hazard Limit - This is something I haven't seen, but I would like to see something where you can have a maximum "Hazard Count" of 3, with Spikey stuff counting as 1 and Stealth stuff counting as 2. (So you could have 3 Spikes, 2 Toxic Spikes and 1 Spikes, Stealth Rock and 1 Spikes, Stealth Rock and 1 Toxic Spikes, or 1 Toxic Spikes and 2 Spikes). Might make things a little more manageable without changing too much.
3. Splitting up type chart - This is probably way out there, but here's my thought process: Say Jirachi uses Zen Headbutt, and Weavile switches in. Wouldn't you expect Weavile to be harmed by the headbutt portion, even if it was unharmed by the "zen" energy? Or when my Marshtomp used Mud Shot, wouldn't you expect him to be able to aim it off the ground and damage birds? I would think that immunities should only count for either physical or special attacks, not both.
4. Bring a GOOD defensive item - Eviolite was a good idea, but I feel that only gave NFEs a shot at contributing. We haven't really had a great defensive item everyone could use since Leftovers. Meanwhile we now have Life Orb, 3 Choice Items, and pinch berries on the offensive side. Maybe increase both defenses by 20% for a certain type.
5. Speed and Accuracy boosting move - Really this is aimed at Stone Miss users who could otherwise sweep. Also interesting on Moltres (he would easily rise out of RU with it) Not sure whether a 2 or 1 boost to speed would be appropriate to provide a worthwhile boost without being broken.
6. 55% Freezing Only Move - I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been thought up yet by GF. Maybe Freeze is so broken they can't dedicate a move to it. But we could just combine Freeze and Sleep clause and this would be mostly obsolete.
7. Sheer Force Nerf - I feel like the no Life Orb recoil thing was an accident, so while the power boost will still occur, you will still get worn down by Life Orb if you choose to use it. Maybe Choice Items will become more viable.
8. Sky Drop Fix - I mean, we know what it was supposed to do, and that didn't seem broken. Hopefully GF will catch on and fix it, right?
@ Lord of Bays: I agree with the Air Lock/Cloud Nine buffs. That would make weather a little more manageable. An item would be interesting as well.
@qedragonite: Reverse Stealth Rock would be fascinating. The only issue I have is how that would work with Rapid Spin. Would you have to balance their hazards and your opponent's on your side, or would you spinning remove their healing boost. This actually wouldn't be too hard to implement either, just edit Ingrain/Aqua Ring.
@qedragonite/MicfiJasan: We already have a move for this: Defog. Also, make it so that Rapid Spin also removes Reverse Stealth Rock, to balance it.
This sounds like a great idea. Current HP% Stealth Rock would still keep Volcorona in OU, while allowing x2 weak Pokemon to have greater viability (less switching limit). Even some x4 weak things might become a bit better, like Yanmega and Moltres.
That's a great idea actually.
A move like that can either be Grass ("Healing Seeds") or Psychic ("Energy Dust"), so maybe it should be more effective for certain types. It can be a great way to make defensive play more viable without nerfing anything.
I don't see how Volca would become uber if SR does 50% less across the types. He is still walled by the same pokemon anyway.
I would like to break from the trend here and actually suggest along with weather and SR nerfs, addition of even more weathers.
Let's give them cuddly ghosts some love, eh?
I would like to break from the trend here and actually suggest along with weather and SR nerfs, addition of even more weathers.
Let's give them cuddly ghosts some love, eh?
I can't really think of a weather effects to add to sun, rain, hail and sandstorm. That's about it, really. Any other are just derivatives (stormy, acid rain, etc). If we want some global effects, then firls moves such as Trick Room or Gravity is the way to go about it. In fact, I have a suggestion right here below:
If the field effect above is not to your liking, it could easily be replaced by a held item that has the same effect. This way, you could slap it to your Pokemon, or even Trick it to your opponent, to manipulate weaknesses and resistances. Not that fatfetch'd of an idea, right? And I'm guessing it would have some very interesting impacts to the metagame.
Bizarre Room - Psychic - 30 PP - The types the Pokemon are resistant and weak to are switched. The types it is neutral and immune to remain the same. This effect lasts for five turns. Using Wonder Room while the effects are already active will cause the effects to cease.
Let's say Fire Punch-less Golurk (Ghost/Ground) uses Bizarre Room as Ferrothorn (Steel/Grass) comes in, hoping to Power Whip for the KO. With Bizarre Room in play, Golurk now resists Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost and Dark, but weak to Poison(4x), Bug and Rock. Ferrothorn, on the other hand, now resists Fire(4x) and Fighting, but weak to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass(4x), Psychic, Rock, ghost, Ground, Dragon, Dark and Steel. Easy win for Golurk there.
This move really messes up with typing, that I bet so much can be learned from this move. Take a look at the example below:
Magnezone (Electric/Steel)
immune: Poison
4x resist: Ground
2x resist: Fire, Fighting
neutral: Water
2x weak: Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
4x weak: Flying, Steel
Let's say Fire Punch-less Golurk (Ghost/Ground) uses Bizarre Room as Ferrothorn (Steel/Grass) comes in, hoping to Power Whip for the KO. With Bizarre Room in play, Golurk now resists Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost and Dark, but weak to Poison(4x), Bug and Rock. Ferrothorn, on the other hand, now resists Fire(4x) and Fighting, but weak to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass(4x), Psychic, Rock, ghost, Ground, Dragon, Dark and Steel. Easy win for Golurk there.
This move really messes up with typing, that I bet so much can be learned from this move. Take a look at the example below:
Magnezone (Electric/Steel)
immune: Poison
4x resist: Ground
2x resist: Fire, Fighting
neutral: Water
2x weak: Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
4x weak: Flying, Steel
I'm going to go ahead and guess what's going to happen next gen:
Shuckle will get Final Gambit - typical trollfreak move
Gamefreak will give one of their neglected types a pesudo-legendary or a Volcarona - Poison, maybe?
Weather will get more powerful. I suspect Rain will get assloads more powerful just because it'll have significantly more threats - just look at how more powerful it got with new moves on existing pokemon and just a few new mons being released. Now imagine getting a whole GENERATION of new mons, moves, and items. Sand buffs will depend on more sand force / sand rush distribution. Hail will remain strictly a doubles-only weather, it simply doesn't do enough to be a top tier choice (It's still a good weather, just not top tier). Drought will rely on getting a better inducer - it already has the tools, now it just needs the toolsman.
We'll have a handful of troll pokemon (Stunfisk, Rotom-F) who look bad at first but will be shockingly decent in NU.
More absurdly powerful dragon types. More and more gamefreak has made it clear Dragons are the one type they don't particularly care about giving a reasonable and sane level of power. I'm suspecting either we'll have more highpowered dragon types or, god forbid, they give Dragons a way around steel types.
No new types. They would shake up the formula far too badly at this point to be worth it.
Oldmons will receive more moves as always. Flare Blitz Flareon is likely.
More crappy bug types.
A gamebreaking new ability. Something that deals with RNG manipuation since smogon hates that.
A few new items that will be Gamefreaks attempted gift to competitive battlers that will completely suck ass. (Think Ring Target)
More spore users. One will probably go OU.
Typical powercreep. Metagross, Infernape, Gyarados, and pals will be forced out of OU most likely due to simply not making the cut.
Deoxys and Deoxys-A will drop down to OU.
New XY legendaries will be ubers.
Some sort of anti-weather tool or mon. People have complained enough that I think gamefreak will throw them a bone. It probably won't be great though so don't hold your breath.
A metric fuckton of new legendaries.
Shuckle will get Final Gambit - typical trollfreak move
Gamefreak will give one of their neglected types a pesudo-legendary or a Volcarona - Poison, maybe?
Weather will get more powerful. I suspect Rain will get assloads more powerful just because it'll have significantly more threats - just look at how more powerful it got with new moves on existing pokemon and just a few new mons being released. Now imagine getting a whole GENERATION of new mons, moves, and items. Sand buffs will depend on more sand force / sand rush distribution. Hail will remain strictly a doubles-only weather, it simply doesn't do enough to be a top tier choice (It's still a good weather, just not top tier). Drought will rely on getting a better inducer - it already has the tools, now it just needs the toolsman.
We'll have a handful of troll pokemon (Stunfisk, Rotom-F) who look bad at first but will be shockingly decent in NU.
More absurdly powerful dragon types. More and more gamefreak has made it clear Dragons are the one type they don't particularly care about giving a reasonable and sane level of power. I'm suspecting either we'll have more highpowered dragon types or, god forbid, they give Dragons a way around steel types.
No new types. They would shake up the formula far too badly at this point to be worth it.
Oldmons will receive more moves as always. Flare Blitz Flareon is likely.
More crappy bug types.
A gamebreaking new ability. Something that deals with RNG manipuation since smogon hates that.
A few new items that will be Gamefreaks attempted gift to competitive battlers that will completely suck ass. (Think Ring Target)
More spore users. One will probably go OU.
Typical powercreep. Metagross, Infernape, Gyarados, and pals will be forced out of OU most likely due to simply not making the cut.
Deoxys and Deoxys-A will drop down to OU.
New XY legendaries will be ubers.
Some sort of anti-weather tool or mon. People have complained enough that I think gamefreak will throw them a bone. It probably won't be great though so don't hold your breath.
A metric fuckton of new legendaries.
I really like this. It would set SR apart from spikes, and at least give double weak pokemon some insurance(even promote pinch berries for them).
Wanna know how to buff Cloud Nine? Evolve Altaria. Even if the final evo sucks, Altaria with an Eviolite is incredibly bulky. Here are some calcs:
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 148-180 (41.8 - 50.84%) 0.39% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 168-200 (47.45 - 56.49%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 172-203 (48.58 - 57.34%) -- 81.25% chance to 2HKO
There's more but i think I will edit this post later. I would be running a Cotton Guard/Roost/Filler/Filler type moveset.
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 148-180 (41.8 - 50.84%) 0.39% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 168-200 (47.45 - 56.49%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 172-203 (48.58 - 57.34%) -- 81.25% chance to 2HKO
There's more but i think I will edit this post later. I would be running a Cotton Guard/Roost/Filler/Filler type moveset.
Sorry, didn't realize you were talking about Technician still.
If Game Freak implemented that into the games, this would be something I'd love to try out. It make so many OU pokemon nerfed like crazy, though if it keeps the same -7 Priority that Trick Room has, then something bulky would have to use it before something faster switched in. Pokemon Like Golurk would be great, while pokemon with many resistances like Scizor, would suddenly become really bad. The only thing is that if it only lasts 5 turns or so, you'd have to make your damage quickly.
Stealth Seed is just what we need to nerf Weather, or at least its inducers. Only Ninetales is okay with it, and it was already suffering from SR weakness. This would also boost Grass and Steel types, which is nice specially for defensive teams. A Fire or Fighting type Stealth Rock is like killing Hail.
Stealth Seed. Genius. I presume as soon as you switch in, you get Seeded?
A Grass-type Stealth Rock (Stealth Seed, Stealth Grass, Stealth Leaves?) would be a good idea. It would nerf Waters, and wouldn't be a big deal since there would be many things resistant to it. Though I fear what it could do to Tyranitar and Hippowdon...
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