Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[Schpoonman]

Zweilous also has Hustle. He shall reclaim his rightful place as the most powerful Dragon in the game!

But in all reality, this would be crazy. Because then we WOULD get shit like Darumaka and Zweilous running rampant (I mean, probably not, but some jack-off would Baton Pass some defensive and speed boosts and things would go horribly south for a while).

 

[Hugin]

Yeah, I don't see any good coming of offensive Eviolite. We don't need more offense boosts. Now, the Speed-Eviolite mentioned above, that sounds interesting. It wouldn't be better than the fully-evolved version in most cases, but a speed boost like that is insanely useful.

I want a better wall item than Lefties. I'm not sure how you could do it, but a single item providing a significant defense boost would go a long way towards countering the HO-trend of the meta. Sweepers get LO, Choice X, and Gems, walls haven't gotten anything since gen 2.

 

[Sacaen]

I want a better wall item than Lefties. I'm not sure how you could do it, but a single item providing a significant defense boost would go a long way towards countering the HO-trend of the meta. Sweepers get LO, Choice X, and Gems, walls haven't gotten anything since gen 2.

Yeah walls could really use more item variety than just leftovers.

Maybe an item, akin to eviolite, but would work on evolved pokemon. It would increase def/spdef by 50% but would also decrease atk/spa by 50%. Would be good for any evolved or nonevolving pokemon that doesn't mind the attack drop. Though at this hour I can't really think of what in particular would really absolutely shine with this, other than things like Blissey, Skarmory, Forretress. Sableye?

What about a reverse leftovers? Instead of healing you each turn, you decrease the hp of your opponent by 1/16th each turn passively.

Maybe an item that increases the amount healed by recover/roost/morning sun, etc.

Maybe an item that halves attack/special attack and could be tricked onto an opponent?

 

[Adams]

Maybe an item, akin to eviolite, but would work on evolved pokemon. It would increase def/spdef by 50% but would also decrease atk/spa by 50%. Would be good for any evolved or nonevolving pokemon that doesn't mind the attack drop. Though at this hour I can't really think of what in particular would really absolutely shine with this, other than things like Blissey, Skarmory, Forretress. Sableye?

Wow imagine Deo-D with that.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

They could have a hold item that has the same effect as Solid Rock. They also need to make Shell Bell better. Have it recover a quarter of the damage dealt. The way it is it's just useless.

 

[Scorpio]

I have a suggestion: make Eviolite give only a 1.25X boost to middle stage Pokemon. Not only would it alleviate the annoyance of another Dusclops>Dusknoir situation, but it would balance out Middle Cup. Also, it makes sense flavor-wise since middle-stage Pokemon don't have as much 'evolution potential' as their pre-evos.

...or has this already been suggested?

 

[IcyMan28]

I have a suggestion: make Eviolite give only a 1.25X boost to middle stage Pokemon. Not only would it alleviate the annoyance of another Dusclops>Dusknoir situation, but it would balance out Middle Cup.

...or has this already been suggested?

No. In very few cases do users of eviolite actually outshine their counterparts (when they do, its usually because their evolved form is a tier higher or something like that). The opportunity cost of Leftovers is very real for pokemon that would be using Eviolite, and you also need to consider their lower offensive and speed stats. They aren't as important but in many cases they do matter. Eviolite is perfect the way it is.

 

[Smilodon]

A totally different think I'd really like in gen VI :
Critical hits that wouldn't negate all defensive boosts.

When you take plenty of time to carefully remove the counters of your cosmic power user, or you set up a nice baton pass chain, it's so frustrating that very few people use these play styles. Come on, having double power is already a huge bonus, why would it ruin so easily any set-up ?

 

[Tressed]

A totally different think I'd really like in gen VI :
Critical hits that wouldn't negate all defensive boosts.

When you take plenty of time to carefully remove the counters of your cosmic power user, or you set up a nice baton pass chain, it's so frustrating that very few people use these play styles. Come on, having double power is already a huge bonus, why would it ruin so easily any set-up ?

I'm okay with this. If you manage to set up to x4 in both defenses and are ready to sweep with, say, Espeon, you don't deserve to be haxxed out of that by a random move. That should be your win, and imo luck should have less to do with this game.
Is it likely? Probably not. But we can wish, right?

 

[Explorer]

They also need to make Shell Bell better. Have it recover a quarter of the damage dealt. The way it is it's just useless.

I agree with this. The only reason people use it over Leftovers is for the Item Clause in VGC.

I think another Pokemon besides Arceus should get Multitype...it's such an interesting ability and you can do a lot of fun things with it in Hackmons (Flame Plate Multitype Krookodile with STAB V-Create under Trick Room for instance). Maybe have another evolution for Porygon 2 that is a physical/special tank called Porygon 3 or Porygon AA, Normal/Psychic type, maybe 130 base Special Attack and the same BST as Porygon-Z?

Porygon AA @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
Nature: Modest
-Tri Attack
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-Recover

 

[Sork]

I personally would love to see better distribution of detect. The reason why I want to see detect on more pokes is because unlike protect, which it's chances of working decrease by 50% each time, detect has a 50% chance to work every time after the past successive attempt. This means that a triple detect would be twice as likely as a triple protect, and that little bit of lefties recovery might be enough to tip the odds in your favor.

 

[HackerKing]

I'm okay with this. If you manage to set up to x4 in both defenses and are ready to sweep with, say, Espeon, you don't deserve to be haxxed out of that by a random move. That should be your win, and imo luck should have less to do with this game.
Is it likely? Probably not. But we can wish, right?

This.
It would be better for set up sweepers and baton pass teams and lead to more playstyle diversity. Cosmic power sglyph would actually be useful imo.

However, to prevent this from being overpowered, they should keep the defense break-through of frost breath (40 bp move), so it's not broken.

 

[jony2D]

What if they downgrade SR to 2 layers, the 1st layer would do half of wjat it does now, at the 2nd layer, it wolud be like it is now.

eg: Volcarona switches in with: 1 layer - loses 25%
2 layers - loses 50%

 

[Sacaen]

What if they downgrade SR to 2 layers, the 1st layer would do half of wjat it does now, at the 2nd layer, it wolud be like it is now.

eg: Volcarona switches in with: 1 layer - loses 25%
2 layers - loses 50%

Sounds familiar

 

[Glen ^^]

What if they downgrade SR to 2 layers, the 1st layer would do half of wjat it does now, at the 2nd layer, it wolud be like it is now.

eg: Volcarona switches in with: 1 layer - loses 25%
2 layers - loses 50%

I feel like the best course would make it a Spikes clone, but with Rock types being immune to it instead of Flying/Levitate.

It's probably down to personal opinion, but I feel that entry hazards and weather shouldn't dictate what Pokemon is viable.

 

[eriados]

I feel like the best course would make it a Spikes clone, but with Rock types being immune to it instead of Flying/Levitate.

It's probably down to personal opinion, but I feel that entry hazards and weather shouldn't dictate what Pokemon is viable.

That's a pretty inane point. what if i said i don't think that steel types should dictate what Pokemon is viable? the metagame has developed into its current state because these are the best Pokemon to use, not because any one decided that entry hazards should be a good strategy. they just are a good strategy.

 

[Tressed]

That's a pretty inane point. what if i said i don't think that steel types should dictate what Pokemon is viable? the metagame has developed into its current state because these are the best Pokemon to use, not because any one decided that entry hazards should be a good strategy. they just are a good strategy.

While that is true to a point, Dragon types aren't made weak because Steel types exist. Despite the fact that Skarmory walls Garchomp to hell and back, that doesn't make Garchomp unviable. However, stuff like Moltres, Ninetales, Abomasnow, and Kyurem are made far, far less viable because of one move. Moltres, imo, would be fairly viable if it weren't for the fact that the opponent can rip off half its HP each time it wants to switch in, at the cost of one turn. Hell, I'd expect to see a fair amount of Hail teams running around if they changed Stealth Rock to act as Glen(^^?) suggested.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I'm okay with this. If you manage to set up to x4 in both defenses and are ready to sweep with, say, Espeon, you don't deserve to be haxxed out of that by a random move. That should be your win, and imo luck should have less to do with this game.
Is it likely? Probably not. But we can wish, right?

I disagree. While it is frustrating when your opponent gets a critical hit and ruins all your plan, at same time you don't want to be swept by a Pokémon when it got many boosts. Critical hits save lifes a lot of time against those situations.

 

[MC Fatigue]

Have they ever gotten rid of a move before? If that's possible at all, I hope they get rid of Scald. That was a horrible idea. Or just give it 20 base power with a 0.5% chance to make the opposing Pokemon drunk or whatever. Fuck Scald.

 

[Sound]

I disagree. While it is frustrating when your opponent gets a critical hit and ruins all your plan, at same time you don't want to be swept by a Pokémon when it got many boosts. Critical hits save lifes a lot of time against those situations.

It balances out when you consider that the person whose pokemon got hit by the crit loses their life. Either way, one player benefits. Why not make it so the player who actually had a well (or simply better) executed plan wins the scenario?

 

[Smilodon]

I disagree. While it is frustrating when your opponent gets a critical hit and ruins all your plan, at same time you don't want to be swept by a Pokémon when it got many boosts. Critical hits save lifes a lot of time against those situations.

This point is quite strange. When you have a +3 Dragonite and your opponent have no more steal type nor priority, he can just forfeit, you've won 100% of the time.

If I have a +6 cosmic power Sigilyph, and if nobody in your team have the raw power to defeat it, you'll keep spamming attacks expecting a random crit.

That means speed and def boosts are not balanced. What would you say if every slow pokemon had a 6% chance to hit first, potentially ruining all the boosts you grabbed ?
"Critical hits save life" doesn't seems to prove anything.

 

[Schpoonman]

Random hax are "a part of the game" because the original game probably didn't have a competitive metagame planned. It's the way the game was built. Now, part of Smogon's philosophy is that the better player (in both team-building an execution). There has been talk in the past about eliminating parts of the game to make it more skill-based, but then that train of thought was dropped in favor of at least trying to keep the metagame as close to the way the game was made as possible.

 

[Glen ^^]

That's a pretty inane point. what if i said i don't think that steel types should dictate what Pokemon is viable? the metagame has developed into its current state because these are the best Pokemon to use, not because any one decided that entry hazards should be a good strategy. they just are a good strategy.

It would be a valid argument, but that doesn't happens.

They are the best Pokemon to use because they conform to those previously considered side mechanics. Now, to be OU, you have to:

- Have great base stats.
- Have a good move list, or an excellent, specific move set.
- Be good under weather. Bonus points if you are good at more than one.
- Substitute the word "good" with "awesome" or "top of line" if you're weak to SR.

Everything else is neglected to lower tiers, even if they conform to the two first points (good stats and moves).

Personally, I've never saw a Pokemon centralise a metagame so much like SR and weather is doing. I don't want them gone, just altered to an "optional viable strategy" status instead of "use them or lose", because atm even countering them is not an option.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

This point is quite strange. When you have a +3 Dragonite and your opponent have no more steal type nor priority, he can just forfeit, you've won 100% of the time.

If I have a +6 cosmic power Sigilyph, and if nobody in your team have the raw power to defeat it, you'll keep spamming attacks expecting a random crit.

That means speed and def boosts are not balanced. What would you say if every slow pokemon had a 6% chance to hit first, potentially ruining all the boosts you grabbed ?
"Critical hits save life" doesn't seems to prove anything.

This is legit why we need critical hits to balance stuff out. Cosmic Power, Barrier, and bulky Calm Mind/Bulk Up users would be impossible to take down after a few boosts, simply because they are turning would be KOs into not KOs. It means that you won't lose 100% of the time because you got unlucky and you missed that one hit and that one Pokemon is just powering through you due to it. Its suprisingly easy to get stuff like Sigilyph and Baton Pass chains to work if the critical hit does not become a factor, and those two things, along with other annoyances, just become imposible to beat way too quickly.

Critical hits really do save games, even if they are incredibly annoying oftentimes.

 

[Schpoonman]

This is legit why we need critical hits to balance stuff out. Cosmic Power, Barrier, and bulky Calm Mind/Bulk Up users would be impossible to take down after a few boosts, simply because they are turning would be KOs into not KOs. It means that you won't lose 100% of the time because you got unlucky and you missed that one hit and that one Pokemon is just powering through you due to it. Its surprisingly easy to get stuff like Sigilyph and Baton Pass chains to work if the critical hit does not become a factor, and those two things, along with other annoyances, just become imposible to beat way too quickly.

Critical hits really do save games, even if they are incredibly annoying oftentimes.

Then run Frost Breath Cryogonal.

That's on you if you let a Sigilyph (by all means not a very threatening Pokémon) get up to +6. If Baton Pass were actually that good then we would see it more and the metagame would be more prepared for it. There's an answer to everything in the game, and one of those answers is prevention. If your team can't handle DDnite after he's set-up, then you either adjust your team to account for it or you add ways to keep it from setting up. It's not fair to the opposing player if they have you dead-to-rights but you hax your way out of it.

That's part of picking Fire Blast/Hydro Pump/Focus Blast over Flamethrower/Surf/Hidden Power Fighting, you're acknowledging that you're going to lose games because you're going to miss some attacks.