Regarding the CAP Server

[beej]

This is something that's been bugging me for a while. To be honest I think the only reason why people don't seem to be coming on the server is because they don't care enough about CAP to bother to learn our metagame and see the fruit of our labor. I'm sure a lot of you have tried to learn UU or Ubers apart from simply standard battling. If anything, this is so much easier to learn than that. If you really, truly have trouble with this, I'd like to stress that, as tennis said, we are a very nice and accepting community. I can guarantee you that if there are people experienced with the CAP metagame on and you ask in the main chat or through PM for help, people will be happy to give it to you.

The CAP project is distinguished by its process. Obviously the basis for this process is the idea that the members of Smogon University can effectively create pokemon, with guidance from those who might have pro-quality experience with pokemon.

This is not so. The basis of the project can be read about in the mission statement. I expect that anybody voting in the polls should have read it.

The problem with CAP is that this is the process that is best designed to draw in large numbers: by personally involving the people. If this process were to be conducted by a small group, i.e. an elite team created new pokemon by fiat, I doubt any positive change would result anyway, and in fact we'd have crappier sprites.

If you only care about CAP because we have a smooth process, you're missing the point entirely. If people don't have an interest in the CAP creations at all, I can't see why they'd vote in the polls other than just because they can say they "contributed" without having to put in much effort.

This thread isn't proposing anything remotely close to leaving the creation up to a small elite at all, if anything it's an invitation to become an educated voter. It's not very hard at all, it's just a matter of coming on the server and having a battle or two, maybe even just watching them. It's easy and I don't see how it's too much to ask for.

 

[DHR-107]

If anything, if it was "created by the elite" a lot of the pokemon would probably end up samey and possibly are more likely to be broken.

New people can bring about new ideas for CaPs, thats always a good thing :)

 

[tennisace]

If anything, if it was "created by the elite" a lot of the pokemon would probably end up samey and possibly are more likely to be broken.

New people can bring about new ideas for CaPs, thats always a good thing :)

Actually we'd probably have more balanced Pokemon if it was a smaller portion of people making them, but that goes against the democratic nature of CAP. New ideas are fine, its just that when people start getting TOO creative, problems arise.

 

[Coronis]

Well for me during school time its very hard to get on in the morning here, GMT+11, which is when most people are on.
Then i come on in the afternoon, open Shoddy and see up to 200 people on Smogon and 1-3 people on CAP.
I look through the CAP forum and see at least 10 other people online. It really ticks me off that they won't come to the server but just stay on the forums.
Basically, repeating what everyone else has said.

 

[DHR-107]

Well for me during school time its very hard to get on in the morning here, GMT+11, which is when most people are on.
Then i come on in the afternoon, open Shoddy and see up to 200 people on Smogon and 1-3 people on CAP.
I look through the CAP forum and see at least 10 other people online. It really ticks me off that they won't come to the server but just stay on the forums.
Basically, repeating what everyone else has said.

Its not always possible for some members who are browsing the forums to be on the server. For example, if I were at school or something, I could be on the forums (Allowed by the school) but not on Shoddy (totally banned). I agree that while they can be on the server they should be (Barring other commitments), sometimes people just can't help not being on one or the other.

 

[Articanus]

I promise you I actually go out and try the pokemon once after they are made and I always love them. And I think really hard when I decide what to vote for so while I'm not as up-to-date on the CaP metagame as regular OU or ubers I'm not completely sunk

 

[Atlas]

ive been to the cap server once, enjoyed 10 or so ladder matches against the same 2 people. fun stuff (uh, it actually was fun, that wasnt sarcasm).

although i really dont care about you people who play on the server. for me its all about creating the pokemon. from the stats, to the (most importantly) art, the movepool and even the physical dimensions (height, weight).

to me, you people who play the game hurt the project the most. it looks like you try too hard to make the pokemon everything you want it to be which loses a lot of flavor it potentially could have had. but this is (most importantly) a community project so i cant argue with the polls.

each poll is getting 100-200+ votes and i hardly think the cap server regulars should have any sort of entitlement for this project when there are so few of you.

 

[Magmortified]

although i really dont care about you people who play on the server. for me its all about creating the pokemon. from the stats, to the (most importantly) art, the movepool and even the physical dimensions (height, weight).

In the process of creating those Pokemon, you are directly affecting the metagame of the people on that server. Without which most of this would be pointless because we wouldn't have any real idea how what we're creating works competitively.

to me, you people who play the game hurt the project the most. it looks like you try too hard to make the pokemon everything you want it to be which loses a lot of flavor it potentially could have had. but this is (most importantly) a community project so i cant argue with the polls.

As long as it goes down good competitively, I'm happy to settle for any minor loss on the flavor side of things. Most - if not all - of the conflicts between the two will end up in competitive's favor. CAP's first-and-foremost a competitive project anyways - hence why the server's actually important. It's fine if all the fun for you is in making the Pokemon, it's just not the entire goal of CAP.

each poll is getting 100-200+ votes and i hardly think the cap server regulars should have any sort of entitlement for this project when there are so few of you.

Of course there are so few server regulars. That's the problem!

We're not asking for double-counting votes. We're asking for people to actually come on and play with the stuff they're making in these polls. If nobody did, this'd be total theorymon and we'd never see the actual results of this project in action. Shouldn't the people influencing these huge decisions in making the Pokemon, then, try to get at least a modicum of experience with the consequences?

tennis' analogy pretty much summed it up: It's like voting for the president of France from America.

 

[Atlas]

well i think youre wrong. if the cap server suddenly disappeared, the community would still go about doing this.

 

[Bass]

well i think youre wrong. if the cap server suddenly disappeared, the community would still go about doing this.

Here's an analogy: Would a farmer have any reason to be growing vegetables if nobody (including himself) planned to eat them?

If there was no server to actually playtest the pokemon we create, then this entire project would be completely pointless. Seriously, if it takes 1-2 months to make each new Pokemon through the carefully designed process that has been laid out for us, then what's the point of all of the hard work from this community that has gone into this project for over a year?

The actual purpose of this project, according to the CAP Mission Statement, is not creating pokemon, but rather, it's the process. You could argue that since the bulk of the process takes place on the forums, it could continue without server implementation and playtesting. However, both are in fact part of this very process. You cannot ignore this.

 

[Caelum]

ive been to the cap server once, enjoyed 10 or so ladder matches against the same 2 people. fun stuff (uh, it actually was fun, that wasnt sarcasm).

This (although I've been more often then once lol). I'm not heavily involved in this project but I do enjoy play testing once it's actually created. I don't frequent the CAP server though because it's boring playing such a small group of people. That's the real problem here. People want to play, but due to the small number of current players nobody wants to bother coming because, simply put , it's boring.

I'll pledge to start coming more, if more people who are active in this forum pledge too


Edit: (PS, require people to be active on the server to vote lol :p)

 

[Mekkah]

to me, you people who play the game hurt the project the most. it looks like you try too hard to make the pokemon everything you want it to be which loses a lot of flavor it potentially could have had. but this is (most importantly) a community project so i cant argue with the polls.

This is ridiculous, do you even understand the point of the project? The first goal was always competitive, not flavor. It is people that go with flavor over competitive that ruin the point of this project.

I agree with this topic's sentiments, but there really isn't a lot to do about it without ruining the democratic nature of the project.

 

[sbc]

This (although I've been more often then once lol). I'm not heavily involved in this project but I do enjoy play testing once it's actually created. I don't frequent the CAP server though because it's boring playing such a small group of people. That's the real problem here. People want to play, but due to the small number of current players nobody wants to bother coming because, simply put , it's boring.

I'll pledge to start coming more, if more people who are active in this forum pledge too


Edit: (PS, require people to be active on the server to vote lol :p)

I also have this problem due to timezone but really it's a vicious cycle. The server becomes a lot more attractive with 20/30 people on the metaserver and more people will come in.

Not to criticise or to be "holier than thou" but to have the mindset is part of the reason the server is being neglected. Passing the buck. Even if you (everyone in general) don't battle, say hi and click away then open another window and do what you want, you are still doing your bit. I'd rather see the server with 20 people away and 10 people active than just 10 people active.

And from there more people will come. Ideally 40 people should be online at peak times which is a 1/5 of the polling vote and about ~1/10 of those who contribute to CAP in any shape or form. I don't think that's too much to ask, and those who make significant forum-side contributions such as proposing stat spreads and such and who shoddy should be coming to the server regularly.

 

[Rujak]

Sometimes I wonder if half the people voting on the shiny clicky polls are even aware there's a CaP server.

 

[Plus]

although i really dont care about you people who play on the server. for me its all about creating the pokemon. from the stats, to the (most importantly) art, the movepool and even the physical dimensions (height, weight).

Art isn't the most important thing you should be thinking about. Infact, it should be playtesting, the thing that all the server regulars actually do.

"The Create-A-Pokémon project is a community dedicated to exploring and understanding the competitive Pokémon metagame by designing, creating, and playtesting new Pokémon concepts."

The server regulars are in no way hurting the community, but instead is playing a big role in monitoring how well every CaP does in the community. It was never intended to be an art project. Although with creating a pokemon obviously comes flavor and art, this is not what we are trying to succeed in. CaP was made to create pokemon to understand competitive Pokemon better.

 

[beej]

It's not even debatable whether the process would continue without the server. It wouldn't. If we couldn't playtest the Pokemon we create, the project wouldn't go beyond a bunch of worthless theorymon for a metagame that doesn't exist. Whenever there's heated debate in threads over certain moves being allowed, over the contents of a movepool, base stats, anything competitive, it's because the Pokemon is going on a server and will actually be a part of a metagame. This is far from arbitrary.

The democratic process should not have to be hurt. Limitations should not have to be put on voting. This is supposed to be a fun experience, and I think that a lot of you are actually missing out on something great. If even 1/5 of the people who vote in the polls came on one day, it would be a massive improvement. The ladder would be active, we'd have more accurate statistics, I think we'd learn quite a bit more about our Pokemon's influence on the game. We need to escape this vicious circle of people not coming on because there's no people coming on. That will be ended if a few people decide to go against the crowd and come on. Even if you end up being the only one, every one person helps, as more people will be shown on the metaserver and it will draw in even more.

This isn't us feeling entitled to anything. Server regulars don't care about new people coming on for personal reasons, they care because it's good for CAP. This is something that's being asked of you because it will help the project and the community in many ways. If you care enough about it, I really think you should try coming on.

 

[diinbong]

I've been inspired to visit the server, so I guess I'll do that now. Truly, the reason I hadn't ever gone on much was because I didn't feel I could jump right into the metagame. It felt fairly different and well y'know. But I've heard great things about the courtesy of the server's users, so I'll try.

 

[sbc]

Well by the end of today I will have finished the guide to the metagame to help you :D

 

[Frosty]

The main reason people don't come in the server is that it is VERY hard to get a battle going there and I am not sure if the lack of battles is solely a result of the lack of battlers. For example, I am on the server right now and there are about 24 players (4 of them being busy) and there is only one battle going on as we speak (mine). Only 1 battle with 20 active players around. Weird huh?


I agree with tennis that more people should get on the server and playtest the pokes. But it is hard to playtest any poke if no one is battling. So I'd like to ask the people who DO come in often to play some games instead of just chatting. Otherwise you are killing the point of having a server on shoddy in the first place (instead of having an IRC Channel). But that is my opinion.

 

[cyberzero]

Frosty brings up a great point. Many of us who regulate the server can be accused of having an SU window open for battling even though we can definitely have those battles go on on the CAP server.

 

[DougJustDoug]

The four defining characteristics of the CAP project are:

1) CAP is a community project. We do not build pokemon as individuals. The internet is littered with fakedex projects made by individuals or very small teams. Some are interesting, some are pathetic. None of them are anywhere near as popular, well-known, or as successful as CAP.

2) CAP follows a well-defined process for making pokemon. Once again, there are a few other community fakemon projects out there. None of them have achieved the same level of sophistication and maturity as the CAP project in terms of having an established, proven, detailed, and documented process for creating pokemon

3) CAP is primarily focused on the competitive pokemon metagame. Almost all other fakedex projects are "fan projects". They focus on making new pokemon, moves, regions, trainers, gym leaders, etc. -- things that are appealing to fans of the general game of pokemon. We make pokemon to explore aspects of competitive play that are not available by using existing ingame pokemon.

4) CAP creations are not theorymon; they are real, playable pokemon. Almost no other fakemon projects on the internet have invested the time and resources to make a simulator for the express purpose of playtesting new pokemon concepts. There are some other fakemon projects that have realized their pokemon on sims or hacked versions of the cartridge games. None of those projects enjoy the level of popularity and participation as the CAP project.
​

These characteristics are the "fundamental pillars" of the CAP project. It is the combination of these four things that makes the Create-A-Pokemon project unique. That combination is also the reason the CAP project has been so successful and popular. If you remove any one of those pillars, the CAP project is not much different than many other fakedex/fakemon projects on the net. Without all four pillars, the CAP project cannot thrive.

I have personally spent an enormous amount of time customizing the Shoddy program to allow this community to use pokemon in real metagame play. Before that, the CAP project was simply an interesting collection of theorymon threads in Stark mountain. As pure discussion threads, the CAP project can only exhibit characteristics #1 and #2 listed above. The CAP server is the primary foundation for #3 and #4. The CAP server is literally one-half of the CAP project's "raison d'etre". Without it, we lose half of our identity; half of our purpose.

Half a CAP project is indistinguishable from any other fanboy fakemon project that can be found on numerous other pokemon sites on the internet.

While everyone on the forum does not have to hang out on the server in order to participate on the CAP project -- the project MUST have a viable playtesting environment for our creations. That playtesting environment is not viable if no one bothers to play.

I don't want CAP server participation to be considered "mandatory". It should not be forced on anyone. But, I would like to do what we can to make the server interesting and enjoyable to those people that like metagame battling already. Perhaps we can even make metagame battling interesting to people that don't battle otherwise...

 

[eric the espeon]

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to realise is that if you go on ladder and don't get a match you can simply ask in the main chat for someone to go on ladder. Mods are fine with it and almost always someone goes on ladder and you get a match within a few seconds.

 

[Plus]

I will admit that battling the same people over and over again is boring. However, if that turns you away, it also turns everyone else away. At least stay and leave the shoddy window open until you can ladder a different person or challenge somebody you never battled before. If everybody didn't come because there was nobody else to battle, everyone else who comes will also have no one to battle. So please, just leave the window open. It's not that hard at all.

 

[Bobtheball4]

ya, or you could just use different teams each time, like i have 50+ teams that i use, and even if i battle mag and hybrid and plus every single time, its usually different since i use lots of teams

 

[ferron]

after reading all this i actually feel ashamed of not having been on the CaP server for at least two weeks even though i am still new to it. work just does that to you some times.