RMT: Hail Offense in OU

[wildfire393]

Here's a little team I threw together after seeing one too many attempts at Hail Stall teams for standard end up just being worse than ObiStall. I realized that what Hail Teams needed were not your standard "set up entry hazards until your opponent dies", but rather Pokemon who could take advantage of the residual damage that almost nothing resisted. It could still use a little work, but I've got maybe a 70-80% win record in my handful of test games to see if the premise is even sound. So, without further ado, here's my team.

At a Glance​

The Lead:

Celebi @ Choice Specs
Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Ability: Natural Cure
Leaf Storm
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Trick

This is a little set I cooked up when I realized a few things: No one knows how to react to Celebi as a lead, Celebi has both Stealth Rock and Trick, making it a fairly ideal lead, and Specs Celebi is capable of taking out other Auto-weather Pokemon, who may not switch out because they don't know what to expect.
Specs Leaf Storm does enough to OHKO Standard Hippowdon and then some.
Specs Leaf Storm has enough to get a clean OHKO on CB Tyranitar and anything less bulky. It only manages a 2HKO on 240/184 Tyranitar, the set listed under the analysis as "Lead Tar", but he probably runs Sash anyways, and hasn't been all too common, to my recollection.
Against slower leads like Bronzong, Trick locks them in to Rocks and gives you a turn on their switch to set up rocks of your own. Swampert clearly dies to Leaf Storm. This also works against leads you expect to Set up
Azelf and Aerodactyl can be 2HKO'd by Leaf Storm, and if they waste their first turn taunting you, all they do is get Rocks up. Maybe not ideal, but it's better than eating Azelf's Flamethrower/Explosion. If Azelf Rocks on the first turn, I switch to Heatran to absorb the incoming Flamethrower/Explosion. As for Aero, the best he can do to Celebi is the rare Ice Fang or a Rock Slide/Stone Edge, so staying in and finishing him off should be no problem.
Earth Power OHKO's Heatran who lack Occa Berry, but only manages 74-88% if he has the Berry, making it a risky proposition as his Fire Attack clearly spells danger for you. Earth Power has a chance of OHKOing Metagross who lack Occa Berry.
The increasingly commong Mamo lead hits you pretty hard with Ice Shard if he uses it, but he will die to Leaf Storm either way (unless he runs sash).
Against Jirachi, he's tried to Trick me every time I've seen him, so I've merely set up Rocks and then switched out as he was forced to as well.
I need a little help with the EV Spread and Nature, this was a fairly arbitrary Choice. I'm thinking Modest is probably better, as it makes the OHKO on Metagross more of a sure thing and I believe gives a chance to KO the bulkier Ttar spreads. I'm also thinking some speed can be dropped in to HP/Def/SpDef, but I'm not sure how much and into which. I'm thinking enough to outrun Positive Heatran (172 Speed EVs) and sticking the extra 80 (plus the 4 currently in HP) into Def, but I'm interested to see what Smogon thinks.


The Firewall

Heatran @ Leftovers
Modest / 252 HP / 16 SpA / 240 SpD
Ability: Flash Fire
Overheat
Earth Power
Will-o-Wisp
Roar

Anyone who's played my other team knows I'm a fan of Burn Support Heatran (my other team uses a variant as my lead). This is me trying another variation of him as the much-needed fire absorber for this team. Overheat is his most powerful move and can dish out a lot of damage. Earth Power is primarily for opposing Heatrans, who hilariously fail to KO in return with their own Earth Power unless Specs'd. Will-o-Wisp cripples many common Heatran switch-ins, like Gyarados, Salamence, and Tyranitar. And Roar can be used to rack up Stealth Rock/Hail damage and scout their team, as well as provide an answer to pesky Curse/CMers, particularly Latias, Snorlax, and Suicune, who think they have a free pass to set up on Heatran.
Teams up nicely with Celebi for the standard "CeleTran" combo of resists.



The Hail Mary

Abomasnow @ Leftovers
Adamant / 252 HP / 156 Attack / 100 SpD
Ability: Snow Warning
Ice Shard
Wood Hammer
Substitute
Leech Seed

Abomasnow is primarily here to set up residual damage that few opponents resist, eliminating Leftovers and wearing down Pokemon, so as to open up a sweep. Ice Shard provides good insurance against Salamence and Flygon, while Wood Hammer takes care of pesky Bulky Waters. SubSeed is good against Stall Teams, as it can wear down annoying Pokemon like Cresselia and Blissey.


The Net

Rotom-f @ Choice Scarf
Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Ability: Levitate
Blizzard
Discharge
HP Fire
Trick

Anyone who's ever seen me rate a team knows I pretty much always suggest Scarf Rotom to shore up weaknesses to common Pokemon. I usually suggest Rotom-H, but Rotom-F works just as well against many of the threats (only slightly worse against Lucario, but I can deal) while packing a devastatingly powerful Blizzard in the Hail. Provides one of the best checks in the game to DD Gyarados, SD Lucario (still a good counter if he lacks Crunch), and any form of Scizor. Also provides a much-needed fighting immunity and appreciated immunities to ground and normal.


The Mop

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Naughty / 252 Attack / 236 Speed / 20 SpA
Ability: Snow Cloak
Earthquake
Ice Shard
Stone Edge
Blizzard

So many teams are weak to MixMamo, it's not even funny. Pretty much any team without Levitate Bronzong or CB Scizor, actually, gets most of its members swept by this beast. And even against teams with those members, if they are taken out or they slip up to a nice Snow Cloak hax, Mamoswine does a phenomenal job of tromping over the remainder.


The Broom

Lucario @ Life Orb
Adamant / 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Ability: Inner Focus
Close Combat
ExtremeSpeed
Stone Edge
Swords Dance

This is my most flexible member, if you want to suggest a replacement, I'm all ears. Basically, the idea is that once their team has succumbed to the residual damage of Stealth Rock and Hail, they will be ripe for the picking off by Lucario. He also provides a much-needed resist to Rock, so replacement member suggestions should keep that in mind.

 

[mtr]

It's not pure hail, because pure hail frankly sucks. There are three Pokemon that can take advantage of hail though.

I think the point he is trying to make is that that number should be 6. Ice is a great offensive type, and Blizzard is a great offensive attack.

Don't get me wrong, I never suggested that you play mono-Ice, which should really be called mono-Scizor Bait.

Try this for your finisher.

Starmie @ Leftovers/Expert Belt
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
- Grass Knot
---

Use lefties because if you use LO, you'll be worn down very fast with the hail, and your opponent can switch-stall. You said this should be a finisher, so it probably shouldn't need extensive power, right?

Starmie is also surprisingly sturdy for a sweeper (caompared to stuff like Nape and Luke), and is quite fast. Another option is just to use lefties/expert belt on Lucario.

 

[wildfire393]

I think the point he is trying to make is that that number should be 6. Ice is a great offensive type, and Blizzard is a great offensive attack.

Don't get me wrong, I never suggested that you play mono-Ice, which should really be called mono-Scizor Bait.

Try this for your finisher.

Starmie @ Leftovers/Expert Belt
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
- Grass Knot
---

Use lefties because if you use LO, you'll be worn down very fast with the hail, and your opponent can switch-stall. You said this should be a finisher, so it probably shouldn't need extensive power, right?

Starmie is also surprisingly sturdy for a sweeper (caompared to stuff like Nape and Luke), and is quite fast. Another option is just to use lefties/expert belt on Lucario.

Ice may be a great offensive type, but it's also the worst defensive type in the game.

That Starmie actually fits quite well, as I could use another Fire Resist and another Fighting Resist. I do have a couple of concerns, however. By doing this, I get rid of my only Fighting Attack on the team. Additionally, Starmie makes me a bit more Blissey Weak, as I then only have two Physical attackers (Mamo and Obamasnow), though I do have two trick-scarfers to help counteract that. Finally, with Starmie, I have three Pokemon weak to Bug (including a 4x), Dark, and Ghost, which could potentially cause some problems (though not as much as 4 fire weaknesses and 4 fighting weaknesses). I'll try it out though and see what comes of it.

 

[Kibble]

Scarftran. >_>

Takes out Celibi, your Heatran, Aboma, Mamo, and Luke np.

Pretty much your whole team.

May I recommend Tenta or Swampert? Tenta can spin for you, and set up Toxic Spikes, which is great on Hail, but I'm not sure if you would like the slightly reduced pace of the team overall.

 

[mtr]

Ice may be a great offensive type, but it's also the worst defensive type in the game.

That Starmie actually fits quite well, as I could use another Fire Resist and another Fighting Resist. I do have a couple of concerns, however. By doing this, I get rid of my only Fighting Attack on the team. Additionally, Starmie makes me a bit more Blissey Weak, as I then only have two Physical attackers (Mamo and Obamasnow), though I do have two trick-scarfers to help counteract that. Finally, with Starmie, I have three Pokemon weak to Bug (including a 4x), Dark, and Ghost, which could potentially cause some problems (though not as much as 4 fire weaknesses and 4 fighting weaknesses). I'll try it out though and see what comes of it.

Ice is certainly the worst defensive type, which is why it's inadvisable to have more than 3 Ice types on a hail team. But that's not a problem here.

I don't think you're that Blissey weak, mainly because of your trick users and Obama, because Blissey abhors Leech Seed.

 

[wildfire393]

I dont like the Abo set. I like Blizzard/Sub/FP/LS better overall. I've built a team similar to this before and the results were pretty good. I know you will rarely fight one but subMoltres shits on this team.. for some reason Moltres was kinda popular.. a spurt back then.. but keep it in mind.

Abomasnow has worked well so far. Dual Physical attack lets me devote only one set of EVs to boosting, and Ice Shard has saved me numerous times against faster opponents, particularly the everpresent Salamence. SubSeed works wonders against opposing walls as well.

Scarftran. >_>

Takes out Celibi, your Heatran, Aboma, Mamo, and Luke np.

Pretty much your whole team.

May I recommend Tenta or Swampert? Tenta can spin for you, and set up Toxic Spikes, which is great on Hail, but I'm not sure if you would like the slightly reduced pace of the team overall.

Heatran is easily dealt with if I predict properly. Heatran in on Fire moves, Celebi or Rotom in on Ground moves. Also, my Heatran is a great lure for opposing Heatran, since he can lure them in and will survive a Scarftran's Earth Power even with Stealth Rock damage and always OHKOs back with his own Earth Power. Celebi similarly can bait him in to a lethal Earth power by bluffing Leaf Storm. Rotom's Discharge when HP Fire would seem prudent does a good job of catching Heatran as well, and has a good chance of crippling him with paralysis.

Tenta doesn't seem like a great option, Toxic Spikes aren't necessary since this isn't Stall-based and its hard to find two turns to set them up except against opposing stall, and I'd rather use those two turns doing something like setting up a Lucario Sweep. If anything, I'm probably going with a Starmie, as recommended.

 

[Aquamentus]

um, do you read the pokemon descriptions? It shows that heatran doesnt ohko heatran even if its using earthpower, and the opponets tran has to get locked into a fire move to beat celebi, so its revenged easily. Please read the team before you post.

Assuming Heatran is near full health... considering you've got Hail, Stealth Rock, and enemy attacks hitting him, that may not be the case. Also, Lava Plume is an option instead of Overheat+WoW if you want to free up a moveslot. 30% Burn chance with 80 damage or 75% Burn chance with no damage, your call.

Lightsabre is right about your team not benefiting from Hail. You have 2 Pokemon with Blizzard, actually using the Hail, and 3 getting hurt by it (4 if Heatran lacked Leftovers). That's officially more harm than good. Lucario, in particular, is losing more than 16% HP per turn with LO, meaning you get about 6 attacks out of him before falling to your own stuff, assuming he doesn't get attacked and there's no spikes out.

Maybe just turn this into a Sandstorm team, with a few adjustments? There's already 2 Steels and a Ground on this team. You'd have to change the name of it, though...

If you want something to deal with the Fire-Ground combo that's still offensive, Gyarados and Latias could work for you. Just make sure to give them Leftovers for that weather damage (especially Gyarados, SR weak and no Recover). Then no one would complain about a Heatran weakness!

Side note, I may have to try out your Celebi sometime.:jump:

 

[wildfire393]

Assuming Heatran is near full health... considering you've got Hail, Stealth Rock, and enemy attacks hitting him, that may not be the case. Also, Lava Plume is an option instead of Overheat+WoW if you want to free up a moveslot. 30% Burn chance with 80 damage or 75% Burn chance with no damage, your call.

Lightsabre is right about your team not benefiting from Hail. You have 2 Pokemon with Blizzard, actually using the Hail, and 3 getting hurt by it (4 if Heatran lacked Leftovers). That's officially more harm than good. Lucario, in particular, is losing more than 16% HP per turn with LO, meaning you get about 6 attacks out of him before falling to your own stuff, assuming he doesn't get attacked and there's no spikes out.

Maybe just turn this into a Sandstorm team, with a few adjustments? There's already 2 Steels and a Ground on this team. You'd have to change the name of it, though...

If you want something to deal with the Fire-Ground combo that's still offensive, Gyarados and Latias could work for you. Just make sure to give them Leftovers for that weather damage (especially Gyarados, SR weak and no Recover). Then no one would complain about a Heatran weakness!

Side note, I may have to try out your Celebi sometime.:jump:

Lava Plume lacks both the Power and the Accuracy of the individual options. Considering the targets I WOW are mostly fire-resistant (Ttar, Gyara, Mence, etc), Plume doesn't cut it for me.

The problem with Sandstorm teams is that too much resists Sandstorm damage. There are very few OU Pokemon who resist Hail, and that ones that do aren't very common. This means that Hail is guaranteed damage against most opponents, which opens the team up nicely to being swept by Lucario, Mamoswine, or Rotom-f.

As for Gyara and Lati: Gyara is Rock-Weak, something my team very much does not want (having no rock resists and 1 weakness currently). This also excludes Mence. Flygon is a possibility, but he doesn't have Fighting Resistance, which is something I'm looking for. As for Lati, she suffers from the same problems that Starmie does - she makes my team more weak to Bug, Dark, and Ghost as well as a little more vulnerable to Blissey. My current thoughts are either No Guard Machamp or Thick Fat Hariyama - what do people thing?

 

[Tint]

Thick Fat Hariyama is good, but what moveset were you thinking about running?
He's also taking Hail damage, which is really hurting your team more than helping it. Being able to use Blizzard, which is the only use of hail on this team, doesnt outweigh your team getting hit by it every turn.

 

[wildfire393]

Thick Fat Hariyama is good, but what moveset were you thinking about running?
He's also taking Hail damage, which is really hurting your team more than helping it. Being able to use Blizzard, which is the only use of hail on this team, doesnt outweigh your team getting hit by it every turn.

Everyone keeps saying that, but honestly, it's not true. If my team can take advantage of the fact that the opponent is being worn down, it's benefiting me.

 

[ShadowHunter]

Lorb with the Hail wears down fast.

If your rotom gets caught with a pursuit, basically the team gets plowed down by fight moves.
From the looks of it, if tyranitar runs fire blast and superpower/sub punch, that will be your worst fear. Not to mention it wipes the sandstorm.

 

[wildfire393]

Lorb with the Hail wears down fast.

If your rotom gets caught with a pursuit, basically the team gets plowed down by fight moves.
From the looks of it, if tyranitar runs fire blast and superpower/sub punch, that will be your worst fear. Not to mention it wipes the sandstorm.

Do you have a suggestion to replace Lucario that would be better against Ttar? Lucario seems like a good option because he 4x resists both of TTar's STAB moves.

 

[mf]

Things that resist both Fighting and Rock:
Claydol
Medicham
Gallade
Nidoking/queen

Not a fantastic selection!

A defensive Gliscor with Roost to resist Rock damage would appear to be a decent solution. The Defensive set listed on Smogon has potential since you can also use Knock Off for more residual damage (just be careful of knocking Specs or Scarf off a Tricked opponent!). You will of course have to be wary of opposing Hail teams.

Skarmory resists neither but has a high enough defense to be valid, as well as being able to set up some more secondary damage for you - but he can't do much offensively.

 

[ShadowHunter]

Do you have a suggestion to replace Lucario that would be better against Ttar? Lucario seems like a good option because he 4x resists both of TTar's STAB moves.

Depending on Shoddy or real battle. Popular moves on Tyranitar are: Crunch, Stone Edge, Fireblast, Superpower, Earthquake. (Pursuit)

If only u know the guy is using Crunch and Stone Edge, then it'll be a safe switch as they are 1/4 resistance. Looks like it'll always be a coin toss on your side for a safe switch in.

I was wondering y there are no protect? Enemies are pretty hopeless when you protect every other turn. This guarantees your sweep with Lorb lucario.

 

[wildfire393]

Things that resist both Fighting and Rock:
Claydol
Medicham
Gallade
Nidoking/queen

Not a fantastic selection!

A defensive Gliscor with Roost to resist Rock damage would appear to be a decent solution. The Defensive set listed on Smogon has potential since you can also use Knock Off for more residual damage (just be careful of knocking Specs or Scarf off a Tricked opponent!). You will of course have to be wary of opposing Hail teams.

Skarmory resists neither but has a high enough defense to be valid, as well as being able to set up some more secondary damage for you - but he can't do much offensively.

All of those options seem far too defensive for a team that's supposed to be more offensive-oriented. So far the slot seems best filled by something like Starmie or Latias, but I rather like that Lucario is a Physical sweeper. Anyone have a suggestion for a Pokemon that can resist Fighting and Fire but is not weak to Rock (so no Gyara/Mence), Attacks Physically, and has good sweeping capacity, possibly with set-up?

Depending on Shoddy or real battle. Popular moves on Tyranitar are: Crunch, Stone Edge, Fireblast, Superpower, Earthquake. (Pursuit)

If only u know the guy is using Crunch and Stone Edge, then it'll be a safe switch as they are 1/4 resistance. Looks like it'll always be a coin toss on your side for a safe switch in.

I was wondering y there are no protect? Enemies are pretty hopeless when you protect every other turn. This guarantees your sweep with Lorb lucario.

The Ttar sets I've seen most commonly on Shoddy are Babiri-Dance Tar (Crunch, Stone Edge, Dragon Dance, Fire Punch) and Choice Band Tar (generally gets himself stuck into Pursuit killing off Rotom, which lets me wreck up his team. Other common moves on him are Stone Edge, Earthquake, Crunch, or Aqua Tail).