Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
You know, while i'm at it, i think i might as well post two gen 5 cores i was a huge fan of back when i was active, maybe you guys would appreciate the info if any of you who weren't around back then are trying to build!
To start things off, Drifblim+Swellow was my jam back then. Drifblim, in my opinion, was one of the coolest (and most frustrating to face!) support Pokemon in the tier back then. The objective of the core was simple. Drifblim would work with Swellow to wear down bulky Rock- and Steel-type so one of them could clean up late game. The Drifblim set that i used below was specifically designed to be effective at doing this. Drifblim itself had enough offensive presence that it could bring the Pokemon in question in and start softening them up. Will-O-Wisp was extremely effective at crippling the Pokemon in question considering quite a few of them such as Aggron, Rhydon, and Steelix were primarily physical attackers. the 12% chip damage at the end of every turn was more than enough to put quite a dent into pretty much any of them over the course of the match too. The Drifblim i used was also equipped with Substitute, which let Drifblim take advantage of forced switches from the threat of Acrobatics quite effectively, cushioning it from both strong attacks and status so it could continue to do its job Substitute also let Drifblim potentially stall for burn damage against threats such as Aggron. Lastly, Destiny Bond was a huge pain for opponents to deal with. Combined with the massive speed boost Drifblim gains after using its Flying Gem, it put opponents in very awkward positions where they'd have to play around Drifblim very carefully to avoid losing at least one Pokemon when dealing with it. Of course, if Destiny Bond ended up taking down the opponent's main answer to Swellow, that could essentially mean game over against a lot of builds late game, as Swellow's Guts boosted STAB moves were both quite powerful and Quick Attack could easily pick off faster Pokemon that had been softened up early game, and due to Swellow's naturally high Speed stat, could "outprioritize" most priority moves the opponent wanted to use bar Entei's Extreme Speed. As an added bonus, Drifblim's aforementioned decent offensive presence meant that it had the potential to clean up on its own in a lot of scenarios due to Unburden's speed boost and Acrobatics having high BP. As for supporting this core, Spikes were extremely effective, most of the bulky Rock- and Steel-types in RU at the time were grounded, meaning that they were vulnerable to them, often moreso than Stealth Rock, making wearing them down with burn damage and repeated attacks just that much easier, while also making Drifblim's Destiny Bond more difficult to play around by punishing the opponent for switching to prevent activating it. Drifblim also doubles as a spinblocker in a pinch to help you keep the Spikes up as long as possible, even though you'll usually have to sacrifice it and force the spinner in question out with your next Pokemon to do so. I'd also suggest using a spinner if you can fit one due to both Pokemon on the core being weak to Stealth Rock, although you *might* be able to get away with it depending on how vulnerable to the move the rest of the team is.
Another core i quite enjoyed. Just like the core above, this core centers around weakening common checks to a threatening Pokemon so that they can clean up late game. In this case, it's Quiver Dance+HP Rock Lilligant. I've always preferred the coverage of HP Rock Lilli over HP Fire personally, but using it comes at the cost of struggling to break through Steel-types including Escavalier and Ferroseed. The other two Pokemon on the core, Druddigon and Magneton, are focused around pressuring these Lilligant answers and trapping and eliminating them, respectively. An Outrage from Druddigon is one of the absolute scariest things in BW RU, and without the Fairy-types in future generations to stomach them, Steel-types were usually the go-to switch ins, if the opponent had a safe one at all. Unfortunately for those Steel-type Pokemon, Druddigon had effective coverage options to hit them extremely hard, including Fire Punch, and even without taking those into account they often struggled to handle repeated Dragon-type moves from Druddigon due to how hard it hits. Due to Druddigon's aforementioned raw power and bulk, it can consistently threaten and force out some other answers to HP Rock Lilli such as Amoonguss and Roselia. Meanwhile, Magneton can trap and eliminate Escavalier and Ferroseed with little effort, forcing opponents relying on them as their HP Rock Lilli answers to tread carefully, lest they be taken out of play. The importable below shows some Druddigon/Magneton sets i honestly just slapped on, but keep in mind both Pokemon are quite customizable depending on what the team means in both set and EV spread (for example, you can use scarf Magneton to trap and eliminate Durant).
I thought a good way to end this post would be to post a team that utilized one of the cores that i presented. I have to tell all of you, the team you're currently looking at is, through all generations that i've played competitive Pokemon, one of my absolute favorite teams to pilot of all time. I took the concept of this team and just ran with it back then. Not just did i use Drifblim to soften up Swellow's counters, but i went above and beyond to make counterplay to this team's win condition as difficult as i could. The Drifblim+Swellow core has great synergy with Spikes for various reasons that i already stated above, and seeing this, i decided to build the team so removing them would be as difficult as possible. If you look at the team, you'll see that it utilizes a double ghost core of Driblim+Golurk. This alone makes pulling off a successful Rapid Spin a difficult ordeal, although neither is *too* well equipped to deal with Kabutops or offensive Cryogonal (in all honesty, i added the Passho Berry to Golurk in hindsight to help it deal with Kabutops a bit more effectively, when i used this team it had Leftovers). However, the real kicker here comes in the form of Ferroseed, who not only has the staying power to both set up multiple layers of Spikes and potentially reset them later, but also has a good matchup against both Kabutops and Cryogonal. Kabutops requires Superpower to be particularly threatening to Ferroseed, defensive variations of Cryogonal struggle, and even offensive variations of HP Fire Cryogonal straight up lose to Ferroseed 1v1! (Technically if the Cryogonal is holding LO and SR is up, Ferroseed can potentially get OHKOed if the Cryogonal player gets a good roll, but a little bit of investment should patch that up). As an added bonus, Ferroseed can "punish" the opponent for successfully pulling off a Rapid Spin due to Iron Barbs, and tends to be able to use the bulky Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that this team aims to weaken as Spikes fodder. Speaking of Rapid Spin, Kabutops was the team's own Rapid Spinner, to try and make sure that Swellow and Drifblim won't have to switch into SR too much. During the time that i used this team, it was extremely successful and an absolute blast to use, very few builds at the time were well equipped to handle this kind of obnoxious, dual "bird" spikestacking offense. However, i eventually did end up retiring this team because i felt like it struggled with certain Pokemon and builds that were becoming more commonplace, mainly augstall style builds due to Alomomola's ability to stomach hits from the team's dynamic duo and heal up the Pokemon the team sets out to weaken (although being Spikes fodder for Ferroseed helped a little), and Magneton due to the team's reliance on Ferroseed for success. However, i think this sort of style still has potential, and i even believe that this team in particular might still be workable in the current meta with a few tweaks to account for these things. If any of you have ideas on how to patch those up, feel free to comment below.
Reviving this for a bit since Im gonna do some changes regarding ORAS and BW.
- Magneton is certainly A+ Material and is gonna get moved to that position shortly. Dropping Escavalier 1 rank cause it really hates Magneton being that good and some trapper sets. And I agree that Garbodor could rise to B+, pretty cool that offers neat support for many teams through typing and hazard utility.
Flygon to A+ are pretty debatable tho. Flygon effect in the metagame as a whole really makes it S rank material pretty easily no matter if you run choice band or utility. It rather conditions teambuilding in a sense when you want to build with other specific things besides your cookie cutter balance or bulky offense (that generally use a bulky water or Flygon itself). Like keeping any form of hazards that isnt Stealth Rock is extremely difficult unless you do some extra measures to take Flygon into account, like having to pair Garbodor with an stealth rock user that isnt forced out by it otherwise you arent keeping hazards against it. How other styles like sticky web or spikestack are extremely hard to pull off cause how fast and reliable it is removing hazards. Super splashable, extremely effective at what it does, and even some sets like Sub Hone Claws have plenty of different counterplay on its own. It bends the metagame notably in a sense, and for that it certainly deserves S and to stay there.
Now, Virizion to S is a pretty interesting one. Certainly the most reliable setup sweeper in the tier, both CM and SD sets are pretty threatening, have way different counterplay and are rather customizable with sub calm mind, SD being able to run stone edge or zen headbutt which change some switch-ins on its own, and only Venusaur being defensive comes close as a reliable answer even tho it can still be worn down. An incredible mon that certainly bends teambuilding and goes toe-to-toe with Venusaur for the role of grass type depending of the team. I agree, moving it to S.
Also dropping Mega Banette to C+ and moving Torterra to B. Mega Banette is eh and Torterra is really good despite not resisting water, really good stab combo to annoy many teams.
Thanks for the input lighthouses sorry for taking so long to respond! Everybody, feel free to discuss on everything else.
On BW there wont be many changes but I think Emboar (to B+), Rotom-Cut (to A) can drop a bit. And Jynx will rise to A-. Feel free to discuss that as well, or anything else regarding BW for that matter.
Virizion isn't anywhere near S in ORAS. There are way too many things that hold Virizion back, and it just doesn't have the same level of influence as the rest of the mons in S. Calling it a teambuilding constraint doesn't make much sense when staple mons in the tier, such as Venusaur, Scarf Drap, Sneasel, Xatu, etc are capable of checking it or stopping its sweep cold. I also don't find it to be all that flexible. Special sets have the issue of relying on Focus Blast, which doesn't make much sense to use when you can just opt for SD + CC and not worry about missing, while SubCM just isn't effective when it struggles against one of the best and most common defensive mons in the tier. One of the few appeals specials sets have is being able to cheese past physically bulky checks like Granbull, but that isn't nearly common enough to make up for the flaws special Virizion has, mainly reliance on Focus Blast when it's not necessary. I also wouldn't say it's anywhere near the same level as Venusaur since Virizion actually A) has plenty of strong checks and B) doesn't have two really effective sets and a set that is capable of trapping would-be counters. Venusaur is either capable of checking a stupid amount of Pokemon while punishing almost every potential switch-in with Knock Off or Sludge Bomb poison, or it can dismantle entire defensive cores without support. Virizion doesn't come close to performing at the same level with its offensive sets since it requires Pursuit support and even with that support, it will always lack the coverage moves necessary to break through potential checks. It's a good mon for sure and generally pulls its weight, but A+ is the highest it should be.
I really disagree with Emboar and Rotom-C dropping that much in BW RU. I think Emboar is infinitely more splashable than anything else in B+ and a much better mon than most of the things there. I will admit that it can definitely be a bit of a liability vs some builds depending on the set (yes Alomomola and Qwil dong Scarf sets pretty badly, CB / Mixed stuff / Specs suffer from being slow and not really bulky, and BigPig fits on a very limited set of builds), it's insanely versatile and a very useful check to a ton of dangerous mons like Durant / Lilligant / SubNP Jynx. Emboar is rarely ever useless against most builds even with the wrong set. While slow, it's not impossible to get wallbreaking sets into resisted moves from offensive stuff like Sceptile / Durant and trade for a kill with obscenely strong STAB, and Scarfpig's coverage moves still do enough damage to Mola / Qwil / Molt / Slowking to prevent them from coming in for free, especially with hazards up. Also, when Emboar gets the right set against some builds it can be pretty crazy. If you can successfully bluff Scarf, you can potentially OHKO Mola and Qwilfish with Choice Specs Focus Blast and HP Electric respectively, OHKO a Slowking with CB Wild Charge, or put a lot of pressure on slow builds with Mixed sets. idk it just seems really weird to me to see that mon below stuff like Gallade / Smeargle / Entei, who are way less splashable and are a lot more useless in bad matchups. Rotom-C is just an absurdly good Pokemon who is absolutely on the same level as the stuff in A+. It just pressures stuff so hard in tandem with Spikes while being immune to them itself, and this + typing + bulk + reasonable Speed mean there is very little cost to using it, since it's basically never useless. It does do poorly against Drudd / Durant / Moltres 1v1, but realistically since Rotom-C comes in on stuff like Kabutops / Qwil / Mola and has Vswitch, it very rarely gives those mons free turns so this isn't really a big issue.
Virizion isn't anywhere near S in ORAS. There are way too many things that hold Virizion back, and it just doesn't have the same level of influence as the rest of the mons in S. Calling it a teambuilding constraint doesn't make much sense when staple mons in the tier, such as Venusaur, Scarf Drap, Sneasel, Xatu, etc are capable of checking it or stopping its sweep cold. I also don't find it to be all that flexible. Special sets have the issue of relying on Focus Blast, which doesn't make much sense to use when you can just opt for SD + CC and not worry about missing, while SubCM just isn't effective when it struggles against one of the best and most common defensive mons in the tier. One of the few appeals specials sets have is being able to cheese past physically bulky checks like Granbull, but that isn't nearly common enough to make up for the flaws special Virizion has, mainly reliance on Focus Blast when it's not necessary. I also wouldn't say it's anywhere near the same level as Venusaur since Virizion actually A) has plenty of strong checks and B) doesn't have two really effective sets and a set that is capable of trapping would-be counters. Venusaur is either capable of checking a stupid amount of Pokemon while punishing almost every potential switch-in with Knock Off or Sludge Bomb poison, or it can dismantle entire defensive cores without support. Virizion doesn't come close to performing at the same level with its offensive sets since it requires Pursuit support and even with that support, it will always lack the coverage moves necessary to break through potential checks. It's a good mon for sure and generally pulls its weight, but A+ is the highest it should be.
Not gonna go too much in depth as i doubt anyone else cares but:
-Virizion does not rely on focus blast in the same way something like xy moltres would, you usually only need to click it once or twice at most.
-It doesn't only 'cheese' its way past physical checks like granbull, it straight up 1v1s the two mons you mentioned as deffensive answers, venusaur and xatu, at the cost of some hp with the former and getting toxic'd with the latter.
-If virizion is swords dance with zen headbutt it beats venusaur easily, if its stone edge then xatu doesn't stand a chance, so unless you are to assume that both are run together on every team i really don't see how its sweep can be 'stoped cold' as easily as you make it out to be.
-It literally has two very effective sets, you're just trying to dismiss one of them because it has to run focus blast
-Venusaur also has strong checks, both offensive and deffensive, and i don't understand the notion that you need block to get past registeel when it's not even that good of an answer to most venusaur sets, leech seed outlasts it and offensive often runs knock off.
-I'll give you that being offensively checked by sneasel is a pain but relying on scarf drapion to beat it is just silly, it gets one shot by life orb focus blast and it takes a crap ton from unboosted cc, not to mention that a scarf drapion locked into poison jab is about the least threatening thing ever, and very easy to take advantage of.
Not gonna go too much in depth as i doubt anyone else cares but:
-Virizion does not rely on focus blast in the same way something like xy moltres would, you usually only need to click it once or twice at most.
-It doesn't only 'cheese' its way past physical checks like granbull, it straight up 1v1s the two mons you mentioned as deffensive answers, venusaur and xatu, at the cost of some hp with the former and getting toxic'd with the latter.
-If virizion is swords dance with zen headbutt it beats venusaur easily, if its stone edge then xatu doesn't stand a chance, so unless you are to assume that both are run together on every team i really don't see how its sweep can be 'stoped cold' as easily as you make it out to be.
-It literally has two very effective sets, you're just trying to dismiss one of them because it has to run focus blast
-Venusaur also has strong checks, both offensive and deffensive, and i don't understand the notion that you need block to get past registeel when it's not even that good of an answer to most venusaur sets, leech seed outlasts it and offensive often runs knock off.
-I'll give you that being offensively checked by sneasel is a pain but relying on scarf drapion to beat it is just silly, it gets one shot by life orb focus blast and it takes a crap ton from unboosted cc, not to mention that a scarf drapion locked into poison jab is about the least threatening thing ever, and very easy to take advantage of.
It’s not s rank for the very simple reason that it requires support to perform at the same level as other s rank mons do. the fact is, you need to meet a lot of conditions and dedicate a slot on your team to have virizon perform as consistently as other s ranks. if you juxtapose viri with other mons in s, it’s clearly not as self sufficient or as influential.
Physical sets can do almost everything special sets can without using an unreliable move when you provide Pursuit support. Relying on support that’s common is better than relying on RNG. Also, being able to connect your Fighting STAB matters vs a lot of different mons given how much resists grass/ice coverage or how it just doesn’t deal enough damage - those being Scrafty/Registeel/Escavalier/Drapion/Camerupt/Emboar etc, some of which you can find together on the same team. Point being is that relying on the move to connect matters much more than you give it credit for - so having to rely on an inaccurate stab when you can accomplish the same thing with Pursuit + ZHB doesn’t make much sense. you put yourself in a position where you know if you miss, your sweep is either going to be cut short or severely hindered. Its physical coverage moves may have similar issues, but they’re not nearly as concerning because they’re not your main stab or as inaccurate. I don’t find special sets appealing due to the lack of practical advantages over physical + pursuit, which undeniably does mostly the same but without the uncertainty that your main stab will miss, against plenty of targets where you need it to land, at the wrong time. i don’t think special sets contribute to making virizon as good as it is and would consider them a niche, non-factor.
As for the point about drapion - i never said it was a great switch in, but a common rker that limits Virizions potential to clean through teams, much like sneasel. Venusaur has checks, but the difference is that Venusaur has the means to cripple/wear down its checks on its own whereas Virizon requires support to be able to perform, hence why it should not be put in the same rank based on that merit. If you’re using special sets, you run the risk of using a sweeper that’s unreliable, whereas if you use physical the support is necessary or you’re getting checked by too much to be effective against common defensive cores. The point of listing common rkers and other such pokémon was not to say that they’re full proof counters, but to show that you don’t need to bend over backwards to beat it or prepare for it like other s rank mons (except for flygon, but it’s s rank for different reasons). I just don’t think Virizion shapes the meta or requires the same level of prep as other s rank mons do as evidence by how well standard builds do against it with minimal adjustments, and it generally requires much more support to pull off the same feats mons like mola/venu are capable of. It’s still very good when given that support, but the fact that it needs it is what keeps it from being s.
Reactive posting lowkey works, eh? Thanks a lot to the posters to comment on the nominations and how you support (or dont). It certainly helps keeping this thread relevant, and thats something important. Lets call it a dynamic of sorts.
I really disagree with Emboar and Rotom-C dropping that much in BW RU. I think Emboar is infinitely more splashable than anything else in B+ and a much better mon than most of the things there. I will admit that it can definitely be a bit of a liability vs some builds depending on the set (yes Alomomola and Qwil dong Scarf sets pretty badly, CB / Mixed stuff / Specs suffer from being slow and not really bulky, and BigPig fits on a very limited set of builds), it's insanely versatile and a very useful check to a ton of dangerous mons like Durant / Lilligant / SubNP Jynx. Emboar is rarely ever useless against most builds even with the wrong set. While slow, it's not impossible to get wallbreaking sets into resisted moves from offensive stuff like Sceptile / Durant and trade for a kill with obscenely strong STAB, and Scarfpig's coverage moves still do enough damage to Mola / Qwil / Molt / Slowking to prevent them from coming in for free, especially with hazards up. Also, when Emboar gets the right set against some builds it can be pretty crazy. If you can successfully bluff Scarf, you can potentially OHKO Mola and Qwilfish with Choice Specs Focus Blast and HP Electric respectively, OHKO a Slowking with CB Wild Charge, or put a lot of pressure on slow builds with Mixed sets. idk it just seems really weird to me to see that mon below stuff like Gallade / Smeargle / Entei, who are way less splashable and are a lot more useless in bad matchups. Rotom-C is just an absurdly good Pokemon who is absolutely on the same level as the stuff in A+. It just pressures stuff so hard in tandem with Spikes while being immune to them itself, and this + typing + bulk + reasonable Speed mean there is very little cost to using it, since it's basically never useless. It does do poorly against Drudd / Durant / Moltres 1v1, but realistically since Rotom-C comes in on stuff like Kabutops / Qwil / Mola and has Vswitch, it very rarely gives those mons free turns so this isn't really a big issue.
Emboar is rather interesting cause it is pretty easy to forget all the cool options it has when the general uses for it boil down to physical sets and the defensive set tailored to somewhat handle durant. One question tho, I personally see Entei and Emboar are very similar in functionality since, while Entei is far more linear since lack of a movelist, it has enough tools to circumvent different check with 2 sets alone (Band, and the infamous sub cm) and the speed tier really comes handy against the likes of rotom-cut as well. It is hard to put Emboar above Entei when while Emboar has more options on paper Entei natural speed tier comes more handy to me imo. Can they be on the same rank? Or Emboar has that much of an edge over Entei in your opinion?
I guess Im underestimating Rotom-C and the characteristic of being a grass type that is immune to spikes but I feel it is pretty on par with Rotom-N since I feel that outspeeding moltres naturally and resisting durant stabs is so important atm.
What do you think? Id await your response. As I said this is like a dynamic exercise and I really want to give this an accurate representation of the meta but making sure that I what have I seen is correct. Anything can be changed.
And I will avoid moving Virizion to S atm since it has been quite controversial on discord chatroom and what not so I will leave like that in the meantime. For now I have fixed the VR so that is ordered in an uniform alphabetic manner (A ranks werent like that for some reason).
heya, just wanted to share a team that I used a lot during oras times. Its just a standard RegiMomola build, maybe no more so meta because of the raise of Block Venusaur, but well, you can play around the new weaknesses
this is the version with lighthouses' fixes because he doesn't like Aromatisse (the spreads are mine tho, so if I did some suboptimal choices I'll take the blame)
Replays: (sets are bit different, but some of the fixes were just made during rupl, the concept is always the same tho)
So looking at the ORAS VRs there's a lot worth exploring, and I'll start with my favourite B- mon ever, Omastar. I have a few teams with it, but my favourite - and the one that probably explains why I'm accused of being a no synergy builder - is by far this one:
The team started as my reply to those saying HO has little chance in the ORAS RU metagame, but it quickly became a realization about how threatening Omastar can be under the right circumstances. I tried to stack as much counterplay to removers as possible but Archeops and Glalie together do a ton in winning the hazards game in this meta. However, Omastar finds probably its best pairing with Sigilyph. In ORAS, Sigi pushes so many defensive teams to rely on pursuit trapping, which in turn actually poses problems for those teams because Omastar rapidly capitalizes on those, while finding any earlier breaking from Sigi and Glalie extremely helpful. As most HO it's sometimes tricky because you have to accept you are playing a sack game and you need to pick the appropriate one, which I don't always do, shoutout rupl.
Some replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-721917596 Omastar does enough breaking for the remainder of the team to clean, even if my God I hate TWave Uxie https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-724382566 Probably my best example tbh, I tried to pressure the Escavalier and the Flygon as much as possible so Mola can't really get them back up in health, on top of limiting the effects of regen. The moment I got Scarf Drapion in the game was pretty much over. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-573109141 I played that game so poorly, but basically got enough damage on the steel to 6-0 the moment it sets up. There's a lot my opponent could have done to avoid it though, I feel, but it kinda shows just how dangerous it can be.
So yeah, overall I think B- is vastly underselling it, especially when its coverage is absolutely excellent, unlike a Barbaracle that struggles a lot more with its movepool in oras. Bulky waters are extremely good but again, workable, AV Slowking being fairly easily the best counter but being difficult to justify in oras. As a matter of fact, I honestly think much of B and B - could be switched up in the VR, but I'll let other people tackle those mons because I know stuff like Hariyama / Scyther has been used to great effects. Mesprit too is another I feel is strongly undervalued in the meta honestly.
Although one last point I'd like to touch on, and it concerns another mon on that team: Glalie should absolutely be A+ in my opinion. It's not just the best spiker in the tier by a large distance, it also breaks teams like pretty much nothing else, steels are typically your go to counter, which works fine... Until you realize they take about 35 from Double-Edge and badly need a Mola to keep them healthy, which in turn helps it get spikes up. It has about the best priority move you can ask for in this tier, a move to hit bulky waters in conjunction with hazards, and while it has some niche movepool options the main set is just so stupid good there's barely any need. I would definitely use it over anything else in A, and especially Mega Camerupt which is typically the only other mega really worth using most of the time, even if I love Maud.
Other replays cause why not: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-750843603 Yeah there's a Slowking and a Steelix, but Glalie was still stupid against that team. Crit on Steelix sucked, but it was always at risk due to it being the best Magneton answer on the team and me carrying Magnet Pull / HP Fire, which ends up taking it out. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ru-369309 Mola takes half from about every hit and has to keep itself healthy, which ends up being too much, even if the crit probably sped it up. Also that team from preview is a big reason why Glalie is also such a dangerous spiker, even if it doesn't end up being the most important factor.
On BW there wont be many changes but I think Emboar (to B+), Rotom-Cut (to A) can drop a bit. And Jynx will rise to A-. Feel free to discuss that as well, or anything else regarding BW for that matter.
Agree with SV that that's way too steep of a drop for Emboar, it might fit A- more but B+ is too far considering how good of a mon on different fronts it is (even if I feel Entei is better most of the time 9.9)
Rotom-C is actually my absolute favorite mon in BW so I'm a little biased but it should definitely stay A+. It's ability to blanket check the tier and keep momentum is almost unrivaled, and it's one of those mons that's like "oh I need a Scarfer, better slap on Rotom" since it will /always/ do well in that slot even if it's compounding weaknesses or something.
No opinion on Jynx, I never account for it so I get slaughtered every time I face one so e.e
Would depend on your team's weakness to gallade. SubSD and SubBU both slaughter most stall builds, so quagsire can help give you insurance there against it, although leaf blade isn't totally unheard of as it also hits golurk and a neutral hit on spiritomb.
Overall the two aren't very comparable though, because Magic Guard is so valuable in a tier where entry hazards are so omnipresent due to the lack of good spinners vs the really good spin blockers and hazard setters. Not to mention the passive immunity to toxic.
Would depend on your team's weakness to gallade. SubSD and SubBU both slaughter most stall builds, so quagsire can help give you insurance there against it, although leaf blade isn't totally unheard of as it also hits golurk and a neutral hit on spiritomb.
Overall the two aren't very comparable though, because Magic Guard is so valuable in a tier where entry hazards are so omnipresent due to the lack of good spinners vs the really good spin blockers and hazard setters. Not to mention the passive immunity to toxic.
Scrafty is great, man. One of the if not, most underrated sweepers present in the tier. While it may not have the most impressive Attack or Speed stat, Scrafty more than makes up for it due to its pretty decent bulk and access to Dragon Dance. The presence of bulky, rather passive Pokemon such as Alomomola and Registeel give Scrafty plenty of chances to start boosting. Thanks to Shed Skin, Scrafty shrugs off Toxic and Scald burns like nothing, letting it boost to +6 on your ass (don't get me wrong: Intimidate and Moxie are great abilities, but they dont stop Alomomola from fucking you over). You're probably thinking "boohoo, its great STAB moves in Drain Punch, Knock Off, and High Jump Kick are resisted by Fairy types!", but luckily Scrafty has Iron Head, which can OHKO Diancie after a boost and has a high Flinch chance to let it cheese through the other fairies like Granbull (who loses its only form of recovery if it's hit by Knock Off) and Aromatisse. It also has the tools to bypass most of its checks with ease. Wanna be able to set up on Virizion / avoid being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Emboar / Choice Band Sawk? Chople Berry. Need some extra longevity and Drain Punch just wont cut it? Rest. Wanna chunk those pesky Venusaur and Golbat? Zen Headbutt (believe me, it works). There's plenty of other neat techs you could try, so give this mon a shot if you ever wanna build an ORAS team. Also Jesus Christ, guys. This guy is the literal Trifecta Slayer, 6-0's that team so hard. Why aren't y'all using Scrafty more?
This is a late post, but I'll revive this thread a bit with some of the heat I used during RUPL, and maybe a few brief thoughts about BW. Importables are available on click.
So for week 1, I decided to retest my thesis that sun deserved to be upgraded from a nominal cheese style to a major metagame threat by bring it. The team fared pretty well, despite having a bit of trouble dancing around CM Flamethrower Slowking. Normal gem Double Edge Leafeon is cool tech, which can help it break past scoli and roselia versus certain builds, and came in especially handy, in this game, using a different variant of this team I gave Rylon to play Silent Verse with. Overall, while admittedly hard to spam as consistently as other styles without getting punished, I think sun teams are really good in a metagame as offensive as bw, and don't get nearly as much credit as they should.
So the week I used this team I wanted to abuse Magic Guard + Spikes spam. So I added two magic guard Pokemon, two ghost types, Steelix to rock and phase, and Scolipede to get the rest up. I was able to win pretty successfully after playing around trick Rotom-C. Duosion is an undervalued pick imo, as even OTR sets can be scary in such as offensive metagame, but also because it just abuses the ease of hazard stack in the meta.
Ok, so I wanted to use a stored power Sigi squad. The idea was for Smeargle to Spore something, boost defense, Ingrain, and pass to Sigi to round off the sweep. I gave Sigilyph Mail so it couldn't be tricked. Unfortunately, this fool proof plan feel short, but Durant hit its attacks to win anyway with a couple reads.
This is probably the favorite team of mine I built. Nasty Pass Togetic into Unburden Grass Gem Sceptile is an insane and undervalued combo, with Kadabra as a secondary recipient. Hazards are actually pretty good versus this so I had to add spin Kabu (to patch up the Moltres weakness as well), and I figured I might as well give it HP Fire to hit durant. A bit janky, but it slaps the team together nicely, which is really threatening. Electric Gem durant is another really cool tech, as it abuses the best switchin in Qwilfish as well as hitting Moltres for an almost KO.
Another team I really like, the core concept here is that Sucker Punch as strong prio can actually bust through a lot of teams that rely on Durant to take on at +2, relying on chip from one of Absol or Shiftry to let the other clean, in conjunction with spikes. Basically, SD Sucker Punch + Spikestack team, but really fun to play (and the game I had versus Pinktidal was a really fun one).
The final team, I got to use. I loved unburden Sceptile so I wanted to see if I could make NP unburden Liepard work. I also used Walrein as a Drud check. Really fun team, but unfortunately faced Emboar + Gallade and forgot I needed a Grass resist. Cool squad but needs some reconfiguration maybe.
I loved playing BW this RUPL, and in general I think its such a fun metagame because it really encourages and rewards creativity. I think less experienced players tend to gravitate towards thinking generic builds with "broken" mons like Moltres, Drud, and Durant all slapped together are best, but in my experience these can be pretty easily overwhelmed by smart offensive teams which are well prepared. I don't really think there are any broken mons at all at the moment, and I think Moltres especially is guily of being way overhyped, since it can actually be circumstancaily checked by Aerodactyl and SR, and often carries high risk to use because of Hurricane accuracy. I wish people would use some more uncommon builds, I think bw could really benefit from some new building perspectives. I also in general really think that defensive builds are flat out bad, there is so much to abuse them if your opponent brings something other than the top 10 mons which you've prepped for, but again this is just my opinion. Hopefully we see more new players interested in bw, there aren't nearly as many tournament venues to play this awesome tier as their should be, but I really encourage anyone interested to pick it up, or try using one of these teams, to discover how fun it is. Cheers.
KW's post was pretty inspiring and although this is also a bit late / I didn't really follow BW RU super extensively in RUPL or RUWC, there were definitely a few things I noticed that I think should be reflected in the viability rankings:
Definite Rises:
Uxie A- → A
Lanturn B → B+ (maybe A-)
Rotom-Mow A → A+
Absol B → B+
Definite Drops:
Spiritomb A- → B+
Rhydon A → A- (maybe to B+)
Probably Should Rise:
Piloswine B → B+
Torterra B+ → A-
Probably Should Drop:
Kabutops A+ → A
Seismitoad B+ → B
Cinccino B+ → B
Maybe Rises:
Amoonguss A- → A
Garbodor B → B+
Drapion B- → B
Altaria C → B-
Gurdurr C → B-
Maybe Drops:
Carracosta B- → C+
Some thoughts on these:
- I definitely misjudged Uxie / Lanturn in my initial draft of the list, but the mons are strong and deserve better rankings than where they are currently at. Lanturn is probably the most reliable Moltres counter and although the mon itself isn't amazing, that + slow Vswitch is usually enough to make this mon a choice that ends up being considered on a lot of teams. Uxie is just very splashable with a bunch of neat utility that I overlooked a bit so I think A is more fair for it.
- After trying to build a few more teams this RUPL, I kinda came to the conclusion that col49 was correct in his assessment of Spiritomb vs Absol. I think I was particularly high on Spiritomb b/c in the last SPL with BW RU it covered some things that I figured my opponents would bring that were tricky to beat otherwise (so the mon played heavily into my teambuilding as a result), but the mon itself isn't particularly great. It does a very specific set of things overall, but if you don't need those things then there are probably better options. Similarly, Absol was not something that I favored highly due to how strong Alomomola was at the time, but I've come around on the mon a bit now.
- I still disagree with the Rotom-Mow drop from before. The mon is just ridiculous due to how broken Volt Switch is in BW RU especially when coupled with STAB that basically ohkoes every mon that is immune to Volt Switch. The only mons that are moderately safe from Rotom-Mow (ie: does not risk dying to Leaf Storm / giving up momentum from eating a Vswitch / eating a ton of chip damage from Vswitch) are Amoonguss and Torterra (although this dies to HP Ice). Really strong Pokemon that is easily as metagame defining as everything else in the top of A.
- Speaking of Torterra I think it's legitimately a really great mon at the moment. Although its definitely exploitable and has bad matchups against a lot of the broken mons, handling stuff like Vswitch spam / Kabutops / Aggron / Aerodactyl fairly reliably is very nice especially when coupled with SR + recovery. Rock Polish Torterra is also scary to deal with if there is a way to deal with Scarf Ant / Scarftres. This might be a meta call more than anything since the threat of random Ice coverage hurts it pretty badly, but I think it's more on par with stuff in A- than stuff in B+.
- Similarly, Piloswine probably should rise. Ice STAB is lowkey broken in this tier and it's kinda absurd how many dumb threats Piloswine can check just by having access to a strong Ice Shard. Checking Druddigon / Sceptile / Rotom-Mow / Sigilyph / Lilligant / Aerodactyl is pretty noteworthy, and although I think that the mon does have some things to be desired as an SR user (using a SR mon that does not resist Rock can make Kabutops / Aggron a little annoying since it's tricky to fit a sturdy Rock resist elsewhere), it's definitely a great meta call atm so it should probably be a bit higher.
- On a related note, those meta reasons are why I think Rhydon / Seismitoad should drop. Rhydon is just too exploitable most of the time and while it does handle some annoying threats (particularly stuff like Aggron, Aerodactyl, Tauros, Braviary, CB Entei etc, and it does switch into Moltres Hurricane which is neat I guess), it is very very easy to lure with random coverage for one, and I generally think that its unreliability at dealing with those troublesome mons + how the set of mons it covers can generally be handled in other ways currently mean it should get a lower ranking. I just do not consider the mon as much as anything else in mid A in teambuilding. Seismitoad is not really as exploitable as Rhydon and also covers a neat set of mons, but I think it generally doesn't offer enough for teams, making it a much more niche pick than the other Grounds / SR mons.
- Still think that Kabutops is very very overrated and that the mon is just not meta defining enough to be in A+. It is an unreliable spinner and a poor Moltres check and while SD sets are strong, choosing between wallbreaking / spinning / doing things against fast teams means it never does everything that you want it to be doing.
- I personally like Cinccino a lot due to how strong it is against certain stuff that bonks Alomomola squads (stuff like Vinctei / SubNP Jynx that try to farm free wins against Mola teams get eaten by it) and due to its coverage, it's a physical attacker that beats both Alomomola and stuff like Rhydon, which is really neat. IMO it's actually tricky to switch into unless you have a Steelix / Aggron / Ferroseed (and these actually lose to LO Focus Blast, shoutouts HSA). Unfortunately, Rocky Helmet becoming way more common hurts the mon a lot, since the mon basically dies whenever it presses Tail Slap against something with helm lol. That + how difficult it is to fit the mon on teams means its probably more in line with stuff like Zangoose, aka stuff that is bonkers good in certain situations but also has some situations where its fairly underwhelming.
- I dislike how passive Amoonguss is, but I think it's better than I thought it was previously. I think its overall reliability + the relevance of the threats it covers makes it a pretty strong pick, and although the mon does not really do much after pressing Spore, I guess with hazard damage + Rocky Helm chip + LO recoil it doesn't really have to do anything other than switch into things over and over.
- I'm somewhat a fan of Garbodor as a spiker right now, since Aftermath + Rocky Helm + neat coverage options make it a lot less passive than Roselia / Ferroseed. Its doesn't particularly check anything particularly well, but it gets down hazards well enough + chips some things so I find it surprisingly easy to fit onto teams. Could be worth a rise since hazards are busted in this tier.
- Drapion should probably rise to B. The mon is really not good, but like many Pokemon in this tier, viability is tied to how strong a mon's matchup is against the top threats, and Drapion does have some pretty good matchups against Grasses and Psychics, which are both tricky to deal with. I think if Escavalier is B+, which is a pretty bad Pokemon that basically only exists to Pursuit Grass / Psychic Pokemon and occasionally press Megahorn, Drapion can be ranked B given it also only exists to Pursuit Grass / Psychic Pokemon but also has the added benefit of absorbing Tspikes (but it does not get to press Megahorn unfortunately).
- Altaria is a pretty good Pokemon. I didn't really use it / see it in action much prior to this RUPL actually, but I think it's way more splashable than any of the stuff in C and is kinda spooky for balance builds without Clef / bulky Slowking to deal with. Decent speed tier + 4x resist to Grass + decent bulk + reliable recovery + LO Draco Meteor does some pretty good things.
- I forgot about this mon a bit on my initial list, but Gurdurr should probably be B-. It certainly has some problems , but it's a solid Rock / Normal / Dark check that also doubles as a way to pressure some Alomomola squads with Bulk Up + Drain Punch + Guts. I think it's generally better / more splashable than the other fighters in C and I remember that this was pretty annoying to deal with back when a certain user would spam this mon against me all the time.
- I have little experience with Carracosta, but I feel like a Shell Smash Pokemon that does not even outspeed Sceptile at +2 and dies to common scarfers seems like something I'd really have to try to make work. Maybe its here for SR / SE / wfall / Ajet Carracosta? C seems more fitting for it either way.
I also finally took the time to add some thoughts on C / D ranks. Keep in mind that I tend to lean towards putting things on viability rankings if it has anything resembling a niche, so there are a lot of pretty Questionable Pokemon in D rank. Some of it is based on theorymon since there's way more stuff on this list than I could have possibly tested / wanted to test. Also I think that the differences between top / mid / low are mostly irrelevant, but I figured I should keep it consistent with the rest of the list, at least for C rank.
C Rank:
Top
- Carracosta (shell smash sweeper or sr tank)
- Crawdaunt (strong wallbreaker, hard to build around)
- Gardevoir (weather counter + a ton of neat utility options)
- Hitmonchan (bad spinner with priority)
- Leafeon (sd pass + sun sweeper)
- Mandibuzz (strong taunt + tox mon, hard to build around)
- Natu (randomly autowins vs teams that rely on lix / torterra / uxie for rocks)
- Primeape (fast with u-turn)
- Riolu (randomly wins games)
- Rotom-S (neat typing helps check durant + vswitch)
- Sawk (super strong fighter)
- Skuntank (pursuit + priority, tspikes absorber, momentum with memento / boom)
- Togetic (np pass)
- Victreebel (absurdly strong sun sweeper)
- Volbeat (rain setter / tailglow pass)
Mid
- Cacturne (offensive spiker)
- Charizard (randomly wins games with one of like 5 sets)
- Ditto (idk how to fit this mon on teams but it seems good)
- Eelektross (wallbreaking electric, slow but immune to hazards)
- Electivire (wallbreaking electric, somewhat fast + immune to vswitch)
- Liepard (np dark pulse + copycat, there is probably a playable assist liepard squad waiting to be made)
- Linoone (screens)
- Ninjask (speed pass is probably broken in some way)
- Probopass (mag pull for durant / potentially aggron + switches into moltres / drudd stab + sets up rocks)
- Quagsire (unaware phys wall, doesn't really fit on anything except stall and is hard to fit on that too)
- Sandslash (bad spinner + rocker, also manual sand sweeper)
- Shiftry (idk what this does but i've heard its good)
- Whimsicott (memento + taunt)
Low
- Audino (wish + regen, but probably way worse than clef)
- Duosion (bulky magic guard with cm)
- Dusknoir (this mon sucks but it spinblocks and has wisp)
- Flareon (wish + Sdef fire type)
- Golbat (bulky + taunt super fang + somewhat useful typing)
- Golem (sturdy + custap + strong coverage + boom)
- Gorebyss (no ground weakness, but gets outsped by scarf rotom-c unlike omastar which is Very Bad)
- Kadabra (faster than Sigilyph + Encore)
- Meganium (aroma + dtail + sdef pure grass)
- Metang (bulky steel type that presses stealth rock + toxic and does nothing else)
- Murkrow (idk what this does but i've heard its playable)
- Relicanth (head smash + water coverage)
- Weezing (levitate + spreads burns)
D Rank:
- Articuno (randomly wins games with subroost)
- Butterfree (randomly wins games with qd + sleep)
- Beheeyem (specs analytic tbolt cleanly ohkoes non sdef slowking without any prior damage)
- Camerupt (sr mon with neat typing)
- Cradily (sr mon with neat typing)
- Dragonair (randomly wins games with some luck from sleep talk rolls
- Floatzel (fast, switcheroo for mola, lacks damage)
- Lapras (LO coverage + ice shard attacker seems playable)
- Marowak (trick room is playable)
- Mightyena (RU Pride)
- Muk (it checks some things but idk what this does other than switch in)
- Pinsir (sd bug stab with prio + good speed tier, mostly outclassed by scolipede)
- Scraggy (6-0's augstall)
- Simipour (fast special water with nasty plot)
- Sneasel (ice shard + pursuit but does nothing else)
- Stoutland (manual sand is playable)
- Stunfisk (sr mon with neat typing)
- Swoobat (randomly wins games with simple cm + stored power)
- Walrein (manual hail is playable)
- Wartortle (has rapid spin)
- Wormadam (once defeated nailsou in spl)
- Zweilous (when you want two CB druddigons and ur ok that one has 80% accuracy)
mightyena / scraggy / walrein / wartortle / wormadam / zweilous should probably not be ranked
Anyway, in terms of general BW RU thoughts I think KW is correct on a lot of points (in particular, weather is underused and its very strong if you can play it), but I do disagree with a couple of things. While I agree that Moltres / Druddigon / Durant are not really broken (actually I think Druddigon is overused and Durant is lowkey the real best Pokemon in the tier) and people need to deviate from just running teams with all the best Pokemon, I do think that Moltres isn't super overhyped and it does play into some of the issues the tier has at the moment in regards to consistency. The mon feels like it is basically an S-tier cheese Pokemon. Dealing with Druddigon / Durant is annoying but leaves a decent chunk of room for teambuilding / outplaying in-game since Druddigon just forces slower teams to run a Steel or something that can revenge it after it presses Outrage and Durant has a ton of checks and ways to deal with it (through techs, solid checks, playing around it). Moltres feels very coinflippy outside of running Lanturn / Regirock since it can cheese through Aerodactyl by hitting Scarf Hurricane twice and stuff like Slowking by hitting Specs / LO Hurricane twice. There are just games where Moltres hits every Hurricane and confuses its counter, and there are games where Moltres misses Hurricane, dies, and you just lose lol. I don't even think the tier would be negatively affected much if Moltres was gone (Durant loses an unreliable check, the Grasses probably start to run HP Fire / Ice more often, teams stop running Aerodactyl / Lanturn as much). That being said, the mon is not broken strictly speaking, although I think it contributes the most to the variance in BW RU (can we ban Hurricane for being uncompetitive plz).
I also generally agree with the point that purely defensive teams are underwhelming in BW RU. That being said, I don't think they are quite as bad as KW thinks, but they just function very differently from defensive teams in ORAS / SM. Defensive teams in BW RU are probably best when they are essentially just another form of Spikestack that uses a defensive core to chip things so that a fast scarfer that checks sweepers (ie: durant / manectric / rotom etc) can clean. This gives defensive teams ways to manuever around things that are annoying (ie: you do not instantly lose to Gothorita / Gallade / certain Sigilyph sets) and also lets them make some more proactive plays in-game. Since some of BW RU's defensive mons are so strong (Amoonguss, Alomomola, and Steelix, for example, cover an absurd number of threats on their own), its often pretty doable to use a 3-4 Pokemon core to check most things in the tier, and run fast stuff / priority in the last slots to cover the remaining threats. Augstall somehow still farms free wins against people though (I love that team to death, but it loses to so many things that idk how it manages to win as often as it does lol) and the tier is super dead so I suspect that this will remain somewhat underexplored.
I didn't think I'd end up writing as much as I did, but I do enjoy talking about BW RU and I'm glad that there are still people that find it as enjoyable as I do :). The teams KW posted are all really cool and I hope that people getting into the tier can get some inspiration from them to try some new things. BW RU is certainly not a balanced metagame strictly speaking, but it's a ton of fun to build in once you get a basic understanding of the meta.
Will go ahead and make sure to update the BW RU section accordingly, thanks a lot for taking the time KW and SilentVerse of discussing it and keeping us up to date with new strategies and trends!
Will provide some stuff for ORAS (and add the previous submissions for teams to the op section of it), could consider adding some XY info in case there is a bit of interest and will try to keep the thread more up to date.
Although I definitely have interest in a possible addition of XY resources, I am a relatively new player and didn't play when it was around so idk if I can really say very much. But what I would recommend if it does happen is to give out sample sets for every ranked pokemon barring maybe the E rank since almost every analysis written for XY RU is no longer on site except like Ambipom, I think like how ZU does with its vr and old gens where the mons link to a pokepaste or something like that. Of course the meta hasn't been played in years so they would probably have to be figured out but I think it would be a good decision if XY resources do happen.
Anyway I just felt like sharing my thoughts on here, I hope to see something of this.
Edit: just wondering, if this happens, would we have to make a new hub to make the resources closer together or would XY resources just be hyperlinked or something?
I also would like to see xy resources added to the ru gen hubs despite how short it was. My memory of xy is a little fuzzy but I know a good amount of people, including myself got into ru during xy. It would be exciting to see how good (or bad) the tier really was. If anything else, reviving a metagame where Delphox is good will boost this sad forum’s moral greatly. I’ve already told Oldamar I would be happy to help with whatever need be done to get xy popping again.
Updated the BW VR to reflect SilentVerse (altho I disagree with Kabutops dropping, think it is still A+ personally) but a reworking on the lower ranks still pending to see if we gotta drop Hariyama or w/e. Thanks a lot for that.
Many of the KW teams have been added to the OP, the ones I think were the best anyways. Any submissions are welcome for BW and ORAS at any point. And regarding XY, it is on the works so thats nice there is interest. Will get to that soon.
I have some good memories of early XY RU (although Dugtrio...) and I'm positively surprised that it still gets some interest. Even though I haven't played it in ages, I'd like to make some nominations on the current VR, based on what I remember, and because if there are still people out there who are willing to play the tier, it would be cool to manifest our interest. So...
I think that Gallade is too low, it's in my opinion one of the best wallbreakers in the tier that can get past most usual Fighting-checks aside from Granbull and Spiritomb, both of which still take quite a lot from boosted Zen Headbutt and Knock Off, respectively. Furthermore, its Special Bulk means that it can potentially take a hit like a Choice Specs boosted Hyper Voice from Meloetta and grab a kill afterwards in case it faces too much Offenbsive pressure to set up. It doesn't have to compete with Medicham anymore (and even then, I think Gallade would still fare better due to the ubiquity of Cresselia, Reuniclus, and Doublade) and thus could potentially replace it as a Scarf (which also boast moves like Trick, Memento, and Destiny Bond) and as a All-Out Attacker. I also remember that Bulk Up was very solid, and Gallade is an overall versatile Pokemon so there is probably a lot of good sets playable. Overall, Gallade was, from what I remember, one of the biggest threats for bulkier team and looks like it is worthy of B (maybe B+) to me.
Is Jellicent really on the same level as other C- Pokemon? While it certainly isn't as bulky as Slowking, which is a more reliable answer to Moltres, and is gifted with Regenerator and some very nice moves, Jellicent can, when running a Colbur berry (this wasn't popular back in 2014, but I assume it would work like it did later), serve as a fine check to some Fighting-types, Escavalier, and to a lesser extent Durant, while remaining a good check to most of the things you want to cover when running Slowking. Moreover, Jellicent is probably one of the best anti-spinner available, as running Colbur means that it has a shot at spinblocking Hitmonlee, doesn't fear Foresight Hitmontop nearly as much as Doublade or Spiritomb, and isn't too shabby against Kabutops. It can also serve as a Stallbreaker when using Taunt, and with WoW+ Colbur Berry it can invalidate Pursuit more easily than Slowking. In my opinion, Jellicent offers a pretty appealing role compression, and should be at least C+, it was fairly decent iirc.
Escavalier could climb to A rank, it's a great check to two of the S ranks as well as other metagame defining Pokemon like Cresselia, Reuniclus, and Slowking. Choice Band can also be very had to switch into while offering the invaluable Pursuit support. It has several good set, and is an extremely solid gluemon. Speaking of hard hitters Steel-types, Durant could follow it in A. It may be a case of 4MMS, but I remember that it was very common and very threatening with the appropriate moves. Definitely a threat to take in account when teambuilding.
I feel like Bronzong could be closer or even share the same rank as Registeel. The Ground immunity can be invaluable in a metagame with Dugtrio. The Pursuit and Knock Off weakness definitely hindes it, but the ability to hard wall Aboma-M as well as some Meloetta variants can totally make up for it. I remember seeing Bronzong more often than Registeel, but usage doesn't make viability. Still, I think it's solid enough to join Registeel in A-, or at least B+.
I would also like to suggest some drops, starting with Virizion. I played it a lot, and while it wasn't bad by any means, it still required quite a lot of support, way more than it did later in ORAS due to the existence of Cresselia, Doublade, Reuniclus, Gligar, Amoonguss, and Whimsicott. Due to their physical bulk, Pursuit support isn't always enough to get rid of them. Furthermore, while I'm not sure if Virizion had access to Zen Headbutt in XY, but I think it's unwise to drop Stone Edge with Moltres around, so Poison-types are usually pretty safe against it. Calm Mind could get past some of the aforementionned Pokemon, but the choice of the Hidden Power can be tough, and you still faces some common counters. To me it's too inconsistent to be A.
Shiftry didn't perform extremely well as far as I remember. Its dual STAB is certainly neat against hazards setters like Rhyperior, Omastar, Bronzong,... but it still has trouble directly switching into these, and struggles agaisnt two of the best rockers: Cobalion and Druddigon. It also has quite a lot of checks like the aforementionned rockers, Virizion, Moltres, Aboma, Amoonguss, Drapion, Skuntank,.. so it's usually not hard to cover. I get that it has some very useful tool put together, but from what I remember it's not as good as the other stuff in A-.
Aromatisse doesn't belong in A, not alongside Alomomola in my opinion. While it keeps in check some very pressuring Pokemon for bulky teams like Eelektross, its defensive utility doesn't look really that important to me. It may not be an offensive liability as big as Alo, but the lack of Regenerator means that you have to keep it healthy with Wish + Protect more often, so it's more likely to underperform as a cleric and to give opportunities to the opponent, even if it's seemingly less passive. I don't think it's on the same level as other Pokemon in A.
Wasn't Cinccino overrated during the XY era ? I believe it's known in ORAS as being too easy to wall, and with physically defensive behemoth like Doublade, Cresselia, Gligar, and Tangrowth in the tier, I think it's even more unlikely to work. I've seen in it a good amount of times back in 2014, and it was fairly unimpressive to me.
Also, what makes Kricketune the best Web setter ? I remember seeing someone who had quite some succes with a Web Offense featuring Leavanny, and it seems more likely to do its job well against forms of hazards controls like Hitmonlee, Shiftry, and Kabutops, with its Speed and typing. Therefore, i'm wondering why you would use Kricketune over Leavanny.
I may have some other nominations in mind (Sigilyph, Torterra,...) but they would be based purely on theorymonning due to my restricted experience with these at that time. Anyway, thanks for reading, and I hope this will help breathing life into XY RU again. I apologize if I wasn't suppose to make nominations on this format...
Is Jellicent really on the same level as other C- Pokemon? While it certainly isn't as bulky as Slowking, which is a more reliable answer to Moltres, and is gifted with Regenerator and some very nice moves, Jellicent can, when running a Colbur berry (this wasn't popular back in 2014, but I assume it would work like it did later), serve as a fine check to some Fighting-types, Escavalier, and to a lesser extent Durant, while remaining a good check to most of the things you want to cover when running Slowking. Moreover, Jellicent is probably one of the best anti-spinner available, as running Colbur means that it has a shot at spinblocking Hitmonlee, doesn't fear Foresight Hitmontop nearly as much as Doublade or Spiritomb, and isn't too shabby against Kabutops. It can also serve as a Stallbreaker when using Taunt, and with WoW+ Colbur Berry it can invalidate Pursuit more easily than Slowking. In my opinion, Jellicent offers a pretty appealing role compression, and should be at least C+, it was fairly decent iirc.
Jellicent being ranked this low was due to it being seen as almost entirely eclipsed by Slowking at the time outside of the resistances being a Ghost-Type brought to the table along with having some extra speed and Taunt. This turned out to be wrong in hindsight since Jellicent trended up quite a bit in ORAS, and i wouldn't be surprised if it's significantly better than previously thought in XY as well.
Also, what makes Kricketune the best Web setter ? I remember seeing someone who had quite some succes with a Web Offense featuring Leavanny, and it seems more likely to do its job well against forms of hazards controls like Hitmonlee, Shiftry, and Kabutops, with its Speed and typing. Therefore, i'm wondering why you would use Kricketune over Leavanny.
Kricketune was seen as a good webs setter at the time due to its access to Taunt+Endeavor, Leavanny has neither (Magic Coat can serve a similar role to Taunt but it doesn't stop the opponent from clearing hazards with Defog and it's a bit more prediction reliant than Taunt because the effect only lasts for one turn, unlike Taunt's effect which lasts for several) Leavanny probably deserves to be ranked.
I have yet to play any of XY, but I was wanting to look at a few things that caught my eye while looking at the VR that I thought were weird, mostly just some C- and D ranks. my lack of experience means that I don't really have very good insight but I was just wanting to share some thoughts.
Base-Abomasnow in C- seems really odd with Mega-Abomasnow being around and being as good as it was, I suppose that maybe Base was a replacement for Abomasnow if you were using Banette. maybe it was a scarf user?
I feel like Arbok probably isn't that good, Tspikes absorption, Intimidate, and Coil are cool and all, but its stats really don't do it any favors, it's just not fast, strong, or bulky enough to really be threatening.
I don't see any reason to use Lickilicky when Audino is around, yeah it's bulkier and has oblivious, but Audino's Regenerator kind of just outweighs that, and I can't see Offensive Sets working very well with how slow and not that strong it is, though having the strongest STAB Explosion in the tier is neat.
How was Ambipom not E lol. I'm pretty sure everyone knew this thing was trash even then. Sure D isn't much better but it's still higher than E.
Mr.Mime just seems completely outclassed by Mesprit as a Healing Wish user, and it's higher speed stat and Soundproof just don't outweigh Mesprit's better overall stats, Ground immunity, and access Stealth Rock imo. It could stay because of Baton Pass though.
Mightyena just looks bad, it's purely average attack will make it difficult to even get off one moxie boost in some situations and its non existent bulk and poor speed don't help it either. Sharpedo is probably just a better dark type cleaner because of its much higher immediate strength, Water-STAB, and Speed Boost.
What was Stunfisk even supposed to do? I guess it's probably a rocker, but other than its better special bulk and lack of fire and fighting weaknesses, I feel like Steelix would just be a way better rocker with its better physical bulk, typing, and Sturdy.
I am skeptical about Zweilous's effectiveness. it has nice bulk with Eviolite and its typing does give it some cool resistances, it just loses to so many common things in the Meta like Cobalion, Hitmonlee, Virizion, Durant etc. and hustle's accuracy drop doesn't help it either, though the extra power certainly does.
I feel like this was probably a bad post, but I did my best to contribute.
In my experience, Exploud put a huge amount of pressure in XY, enough to allow Pokemon with Soundproof like Bouffalant, Mr.Mime, and base Abomasnow a rank. With that being said, the latter still has to watch out for Fire / Focus Blast when switching on Exploud, and from what I remember Soundproof was just a nice little tool but Abomasnow would eventually mega evolve, so I'm not sure if baby Aboma deserves a rank, especially in a metagame with barely any competition for a mega-slot.
Mr.Mime, on the other hand, is worthy of D rank in my opinion. It doesn't fear Exploud usual coverage moves, can use Nasty Plot alongside Baton Pass which also allows it to escape from Pursuit, and its secondary Fairy STAB can be troublesome for teams relying on, say, Spiritomb to deal with Psychic-types. It's a tiny niche and Mime is still outclassed for the most time, but I used it a good amount of times and switching fearlessly and Boomburst was very satisfying. D rank is fair to me.
I don't have any experience with Zweilous, but on paper it looks alright to me. It has strong STABs, good resistances against things like Slowking, non Ice attacks Sharpedo, Electric-types... And it's not like the tier is filled wuth Fairies. It probably deserves a D rank I would say.
I don't have a strong opinion on any of the other nomination, so I'm fine if these Pokemon end up being unranked.
(the spreads are mine tho, so if I did some suboptimal choices I'll take the blame)
