Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition

[freddymc]

with all this talk about Reniculus for S rank, I have a clear smogger on my team so I easily counter the CM sets. I have versed reniculus several times and although he is a tough poke I don't really have too much trouble dealing with it, definitely not enough trouble to designing parts of my team to specifically taking him out.

 

[zbr]

with all this talk about Reniculus for S rank, I have a clear smogger on my team so I easily counter the CM sets. I have versed reniculus several times and although he is a tough poke I don't really have too much trouble dealing with it, definitely not enough trouble to designing parts of my team to specifically taking him out.

Most of these clear smoggers are beaten 1v1 against Reun. The only one that can reliably clear smog on Reun is Gastro but Gastro cannot do jack in return. Anyway if you have to dedicate a slot for Clear Smog on something that is offensive in nature like say Haunter/Golduck just to be able to take on Reun, then isn't there something wrong already?

edit: just because you dont have problem with it doesn't mean it isn't troublesome to deal with. ._.

 

[tehy]

with all this talk about Reniculus for S rank, I have a clear smogger on my team so I easily counter the CM sets. I have versed reniculus several times and although he is a tough poke I don't really have too much trouble dealing with it, definitely not enough trouble to designing parts of my team to specifically taking him out.

4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Magcargo: 174-206 (57.4 - 67.9%)

you still haven't posted the actual Magcargo set you've used, but since you mentioned Rocky Helmet and Flame Body abuse, it seems generous to give you the benefit of the doubt and hand you max SpD. With that said, a single double switch with Stealth Rock up and a Focus Blast ends you. So far, you're only walling Shadow Ball variants of Reuniclus, which is nice but not incredible.

On top of that, Clear Smog has only 24 PP to Calm Mind's 32, and Magcargo poses very little threat to reuniclus, so there's little stopping it from going 1 for 1 until you run out; if you switch out to take advantage of it, it may boost to the point that you can't just nonchalantly switch back in and Clear Smog away the boosts.

There's also the fact that it and Magcargo speed tie, so a lost battle of speed creep could lead to you losing right away, or being at a very significant disadvantage (if you stay in, you just clear smog until you run out; if you switch out to a teammate, a +2 clus could 2HKO you on the switch back in, or kill your teammate).

all i'm left with is a question:what kind of reuniclus have YOU been facing?

Edit: From the mouth of the man himself, here it is:

Magcargo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Recover
- Clear Smog
- Stealth Rock

actually he didn't specify the last 4 EVs, w/e

below replay is kind of an ad hominem? whatever, it also conveniently has proof of above set from the man himself

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-223207407

4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Magcargo: 252-298 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 4 SpA Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Magcargo: 126-149 (41.5 - 49.1%)

overall you're a shaky check to Shadow Ball Reuniclus and lose flat-out to Focus Blast Reuniclus, which is funny considering how hard the rest of his team is shrekt by it

also if you want to have an actual magcargo discussion: i'd really prefer a rock-type STAB over clear smog, since Clear Smog seems to suck a large amount of ass. Alternately, Will-o-Wisp sounds nice. Dropping Stealth Rock for dual STABs + WoW might make for an O.K. defensive Pokemon, being able to stop Sigilyph pretty ok for stall and, uh, not sure what else; it is an ok doublade check I suppose. SpD might be better in this meta, insofar as that means something.

Edit:

at below; a big problem that i've run into using Aromatisse in the past is that it's easy to wear down, has to aroma against statuses, gets rekt by phazers + hard hitters, hates tspikes, has no moveslots to spare. Clefable doesn't have any of those problems, which makes it a cool defensive HB supporter / SR supporter.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Gonna nom Clefairy for C. It has a lot going for it, being a pretty decent fairy type. Directly comparing it to Aromatisse, it's main competition, it has Softboiled, Stealth Rocks, Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, Encore, Healing Wish. Magic Guard is a great ability over Aroma, and 35 base speed makes it faster than Reun and other base 30s. It also has a much more threatening CM set than Aroma.

Calcs for Clef vs Aromatisse

calcs

252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 115-136 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 156-184 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 138-163 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Major cons are less firepower with Moonblast, no leftovers, a huge knock off weakness, and smaller wishes, but I think Clefairy has a real role in the current meta and is not entirely outclassed, major pros are its huge versatility. I think it partners better with Lickilicky and Alomomola because it doesn't start to feel redundant the way Aromatisse can, but it also fits in a lot of other places because of Magic Guard + it's great movepool.

 

[FirstWorldProblems]

Would definitely have to agree with the above post, as Clefairy can propose as a threat thanks to its great Fairy-typing and reasonable defenses. I would actually say that Clefairy could even probably even be C+/B- thanks to it having access to Thunder Wave, being able to Encore set-up sweepers and set-up Stealth Rock as LDM said, despite it obviously facing competition vs Aromatisse, who resides in the higher rankings.

 

[lighthouses]

Are there any pros of running clefairy over aromatisse ?
C+/B- seens like a little too much

 

[FirstWorldProblems]

I find that its wider support movepool is the reason to run Clefairy over Aromatisse when using it, but at the end of the day I wouldn't put Clef any higher than the C+/B- borderline. However, I can definitely see why you would think that would be a little too generous but I'd say it's still pretty good, just my opinion though!

 

[Choice Banned]

I find that its wider support movepool is the reason to run Clefairy over Aromatisse when using it, but at the end of the day I wouldn't put Clef any higher than the C+/B- borderline. However, I can definitely see why you would think that would be a little too generous but I'd say it's still pretty good, just my opinion though!

tbh if clef would get ranked it would be D ranked although personally, I don't think it deserves a rank. As lighthouses pointed out, it has big competition from Aromatisse, and even with a wide movepool, it is very outclassed by not only fairies, but many good RU mons in general.

Anyway, got a few noms of my own.

B+ --> A-
Toad is a really good defensive/utility mon in the current meta. It beats quite a few common Pokemon and is really handy with Stealth Rock, access to Knock Off, and decent offensive stats.

A- --> A/A+
Like Toad, Heliolisk is really good in the current meta. It resides in a good speed tier of 109 (really fast for a metagame that's generally slower), hits pretty hard, has quite a few great coverage moves that make it really hard to switch in on, and can gain easy momentum with Volt Switch, especially paired with the good speed tier I mentioned.

 

[Natural Talent]

Gonna nom Clefairy for C. It has a lot going for it, being a pretty decent fairy type. Directly comparing it to Aromatisse, it's main competition, it has Softboiled, Stealth Rocks, Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, Encore, Healing Wish. Magic Guard is a great ability over Aroma, and 35 base speed makes it faster than Reun and other base 30s. It also has a much more threatening CM set than Aroma.

Calcs for Clef vs Aromatisse

calcs

252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 115-136 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 156-184 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 138-163 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Major cons are less firepower with Moonblast, no leftovers, a huge knock off weakness, and smaller wishes, but I think Clefairy has a real role in the current meta and is not entirely outclassed, major pros are its huge versatility. I think it partners better with Lickilicky and Alomomola because it doesn't start to feel redundant the way Aromatisse can, but it also fits in a lot of other places because of Magic Guard + it's great movepool.

Alright for everyone bashing this mon or saying it's not good enough if partially agree with the part about competition with aromatisse.

The difference between the 2 is Clefairy gets stealth rock and magic gaurd.

One thing that sets this mon back is that fact that knock takes away all of its bulk and it's looking like it's only gonna be usable on stall.

I have found it to be HORRIBLE wish passer. It gets softboiled which isn't bad seeing as paired with mola it won't need to use wish.

So in my own words it's a cool utility mon ( taunt bait however).

Definitely worth using if you want to use a cool stealth rocker on stall.

I'd say a good start would be C-.

 

[tehy]

here to rep for my boi

firstly, what i said up there:

Edit:

at below; a big problem that i've run into using Aromatisse in the past is that it's easy to wear down, has to aroma against statuses, gets rekt by phazers + hard hitters, hates tspikes, has no moveslots to spare. Clefable doesn't have any of those problems, which makes it a cool defensive HB supporter / SR supporter.
/end

You know how you wear down an aromatisse? Hit it for 40% and switch out to SD Doublade, Cobalion, etc, as it Wishes. If it takes the wish for itself, free SD and then another SD or hit on the switch-in! If not, it gets worn down eventually. When the threat you wants to wall is doing 40% a hit, this problem gets exacerbated even further. One of the reasons why Quagsire pairs well with WishTect clerics, but not every stall team can run quagsire, yeh? (Actually most of them should, but hey, i'm not currently so w/e)

Clefable can just use Soft-Boiled and not give a single fuck about any of that noise. Well, you might still get swept, but hopefully you can at least take on a Doublade / Cobalion who has only 1 free turn.

You can also hit hard and go to a phazer constantly, which is really unstoppable. Or, in Clefable's case, uninteresting.

Entry hazards are a neat way; stealth rock chips you into 2HKO range, and spikes / toxic spikes really get your goat. Clefable's goat is ungettable since it is the GOAT tho.

Maybe these strategies aren't seen too often on ladder. But a skilled player can take advantage of them (especially the first one) and just kill your Aromatisse, then sweep through the hole created by that. Or just spread status around, with no way to cleanse it.

Finally, Clefable can run Heal Bell / Moonblast / Soft-boiled / ...anything, really. Want a Stealth Rock setter? use metronome! j/k. Want a way to cripple offensive mons? here comes the thunder wave, bzzzz. Want to strip away items? Knock Off is your man, get fucking rekt Doublade haha nerd. Flamethrower is a cool lure for Steel-types, Durant is no longer SSJ stall ruiner but rather a toasted ant. Want a random wincon who can sweep lategame sometimes? Well, you could run Restalk Aromatisse, no team support provided, no reliable recovery, zzz, all it can do is lategame wincon. Or, run CM in that last slot! want a soft check to most/all bulky boosters who can annoy defensive mons too? here coems the encore train, choo choo

Okay, so it can't wishpass worth a damn; who cares? I'll take Heal Bell + status sponge any day, and that last slot is bound to provide some kind of support-Stealth Rock, luring certain dangerous mons, even moonlighting as a wincon.

bottom line: you miss out on power and anti-fighting capabilities and you're somewhat worse against SD virizion (unfortunately that's in the range where lefties matters), then again Aromatisse needs no hazards and a protect prediction / low rolls to win, and Clefable can provide lots of support and switch in against plenty of defensive mons.

Btw, i might support SpD over phys.D fable as well, but let's test this out and stuff your disbelief where the sun dont extrashine

 

[Senpai D.M]

C is still too high imo yeah sure its clutch and all wouldn't run it over aroma lol
start it off at D

 

[Lord Death Man]

Touching on Clefairy again, I don't think thinking of it as a clean swap for Aroma really captures what it does well, because Aroma has like one (maaaaybe 2) sets, whereas Clefairy can do tons of things, and almost nothing else gets Rocks + Heal Bell + Recovery (shout out to Miltank!). Clefairy also takes hits slightly better before you factor in leftovers, and since hazards really wear down Aroma's lefties recovery, ends up top many times. I really think versatility is being downplayed, because that's something Aromatisse just plain doesn't have and Clefairy has going for it. You wouldn't run it over Aroma because if Aromatisse fits in your team, you probably don't care about anything Clefairy could do because those roles are already handled. Other than Jellicent I can't think of anything that runs taunt that Clef/Aroma would ever want to stay in on anyway as well.

I'm also interested in seeing Aroma move down because of how often it ends up dead weight against teams featuring any of it's free switch ins (Drapion, Doublade, Megalix, Cobalion, Amoongus, Reuniclus, Magneton all get a free turn to switch in and then do whatever they want) but that's another post.

 

[col49]

ok, so i'm just gonna dump a bunch of thoughts here, take of them what you will haha

i think hitmonlee should take a drop; it has been stricken signifcantly as a spinner by the influx of fighting-resistant hazard setters, and the pool of good fighting resists has really expanded of late. it's speed tier isn't /too/ great rn either, and being forced run adamant or have an unfavourable chance of ohkoing duggy from full w/mach is kinda lame as well (though dual priority, which isn't bad now, does handle this better).

tentative, but drap could maybe go a here, since the sheer amount of utility it compresses into a single teamslot, while still have an o_k speed tier to work off is sick.

seismitoad should, i believe, be at the same rank as rhyperior currently; i consider the two to be moderately interchangeable as sr setters, with the variance of course lying in whether you need the normal resist and psychic check / phazing or water immune, ground neutrality, scald, etc. also, subtox toad is a cute set in this meta (sub / tox / ep / [hydro pump / sludge wave]), try it!

eel should drop to ~ b minus i'd say, it isn't bird meta anymore e_e i'd also push for bannette to go there as well, but i understand some are quite passionate about it haha

kinda wanna see jynx / sigi / torterra in mid b, 'cuz they're sick, and have far more broad applications than these 'stall-only' / bp 'mons that occupy b minus.

i think musharna / uxie should drop a smidge; they have maybe one set per that aren't hugely and painfully outclassed by the ridic psychics of the tier, and they aren't super easy to validate either.

sneasel / yama / cradily could stand to be c+ , though. i talked about yama and sneasel elsewhere, but cradily is neat-o, checking exploud / electrics / doomer in a single teamslot is increasingly cool for slower team

mantine should be the same rank as pelipper; recovery in roost is neat, but mantine's better handle on doomer and, more importantly, a scald immunity (meaning that qwilfish and omastar can't fish for burns v.it) is really significant.

 

[g]

here to rep for my boi

firstly, what i said up there:

Edit:

at below; a big problem that i've run into using Aromatisse in the past is that it's easy to wear down, has to aroma against statuses, gets rekt by phazers + hard hitters, hates tspikes, has no moveslots to spare. Clefable doesn't have any of those problems, which makes it a cool defensive HB supporter / SR supporter.
/end

You know how you wear down an aromatisse? Hit it for 40% and switch out to SD Doublade, Cobalion, etc, as it Wishes. If it takes the wish for itself, free SD and then another SD or hit on the switch-in! If not, it gets worn down eventually. When the threat you wants to wall is doing 40% a hit, this problem gets exacerbated even further. One of the reasons why Quagsire pairs well with WishTect clerics, but not every stall team can run quagsire, yeh? (Actually most of them should, but hey, i'm not currently so w/e)

Clefable can just use Soft-Boiled and not give a single fuck about any of that noise. Well, you might still get swept, but hopefully you can at least take on a Doublade / Cobalion who has only 1 free turn.

You can also hit hard and go to a phazer constantly, which is really unstoppable. Or, in Clefable's case, uninteresting.

Entry hazards are a neat way; stealth rock chips you into 2HKO range, and spikes / toxic spikes really get your goat. Clefable's goat is ungettable since it is the GOAT tho.

Maybe these strategies aren't seen too often on ladder. But a skilled player can take advantage of them (especially the first one) and just kill your Aromatisse, then sweep through the hole created by that. Or just spread status around, with no way to cleanse it.

Finally, Clefable can run Heal Bell / Moonblast / Soft-boiled / ...anything, really. Want a Stealth Rock setter? use metronome! j/k. Want a way to cripple offensive mons? here comes the thunder wave, bzzzz. Want to strip away items? Knock Off is your man, get fucking rekt Doublade haha nerd. Flamethrower is a cool lure for Steel-types, Durant is no longer SSJ stall ruiner but rather a toasted ant. Want a random wincon who can sweep lategame sometimes? Well, you could run Restalk Aromatisse, no team support provided, no reliable recovery, zzz, all it can do is lategame wincon. Or, run CM in that last slot! want a soft check to most/all bulky boosters who can annoy defensive mons too? here coems the encore train, choo choo

Okay, so it can't wishpass worth a damn; who cares? I'll take Heal Bell + status sponge any day, and that last slot is bound to provide some kind of support-Stealth Rock, luring certain dangerous mons, even moonlighting as a wincon.

bottom line: you miss out on power and anti-fighting capabilities and you're somewhat worse against SD virizion (unfortunately that's in the range where lefties matters), then again Aromatisse needs no hazards and a protect prediction / low rolls to win, and Clefable can provide lots of support and switch in against plenty of defensive mons.

Btw, i might support SpD over phys.D fable as well, but let's test this out and stuff your disbelief where the sun dont extrashine

Because Clefairy's glorious Special Attack won't give your opponent any free room to do work with! Anything will crumble at that magnificent 156 Special Attack firing off unboosted Moonblast! Even Cobalion has a chance to be nearly 4hkod by this beast!
In any case please don't use Clefairy outside of jokes because while it can actually be hard to beat after a few Calm Minds (there is this replay of Molk 6-0ing a known player with this I don't have linked) so is Reuniclus (which has better bulk even with Eviolite and actually hits hard) who also doesn't struggle as much against Mega Steelix's strong Steel-type attacks. Which just blow Clefairy Back.

Regarding other nominations.

Supporting the drop for Eelktross as well as Banette and I also would like to see Jynx, Sigilyph, and Drapion moving up because if their amazing niches against different kinds of teams such as Sleep move and Fire coveragr and general reliability against top tier threats in Drapion case (fuck dugtrio teams).

Heliolisk to A is something I really can't be opposed to and it might be time to make the swap between Cresselia and Reuniclus (would also bump Dugtrio but w/e it is fine in A+)

Seismitoad is nice but not A- nice I guess and stuff like Gorebyss, and Zangoose can drop down (not Combusken tho in my opinion, it is pretty cool).

 

[tehy]

Because Clefairy's glorious Special Attack won't give your opponent any free room to do work with! Anything will crumble at that magnificent 156 Special Attack firing off unboosted Moonblast! Even Cobalion has a chance to be nearly 4hkod by this beast!
In any case please don't use Clefairy outside of jokes because while it can actually be hard to beat after a few Calm Minds (there is this replay of Molk 6-0ing a known player with this I don't have linked) so is Reuniclus (which has better bulk even with Eviolite and actually hits hard) who also doesn't struggle as much against Mega Steelix's strong Steel-type attacks. Which just blow Clefairy Back.

i was considering not even mentioning Calm Mind, because everyone always has this reaction:

It has a setup move? But its shit at sweeping!!! Git gud bro

setup moves can be used for more than just sweeping, and i'm probably the premier user of this. this is just a PSA about that, open your minds to possibilities. tbh i did mention CM in that way to an extent, however, so let's move on:

my point in mentioning CM was that it's one of a wide array of options you can slap onto the fourth moveslot, which might help out your team from time to time, in this case mostly in degenerated late-game situations or very occasionally against a team weak to it. Not a great option, but my point was that it can do a fair amount of what Aromatisse does, then have a lil' extra on the side. It's a bit enraging that you fixated on Calm Mind; maybe it's not even good enough to be mentioned in my post or used, but what about, well, all the other options mentioned?

Moving on from Calm Mind: if such a weak Moonblast leaves you setup bait, so does being a mon that heals with Wish (and especially WishTect), i.e. aromatisse. Additionally, you can use Thunder Wave to thwart general setup, or Flamethrower / Knock Off to stop more specific setup (flamethrower makes Durantula not want to switch in, and chips doublade, knock off annoys everything but far more relevantly makes Doublade much easier to handle). Encore is even an option, albeit a bit prediction-reliant. Anyhow, Clefable isn't as easy to switch into as Aromatisse, who has only moonblast, possibly paired with CM but still that basic coverage, and very, very rarely Toxic:

Wish 99.167% | Moonblast 97.715% | Protect 92.178% | Aromatherapy 71.963% | Heal Bell 27.032% | Other 11.944%

plus Poisons / Steels / mguard mons who love to switch into Aromatisse still give absolutely no fucks, to top it off if the opp lacks other clerics it's almost always aroma, skews harder to aroma the more defensive the team is.

Meanwhile, at least Clefable might have something up its sleeve. You might go to some neutral pivot, rather than get your wincon smoked. Or, you might get your wincon smoked :DDD


I think more testing needs to be done, and it's definitely lacking in the WishPassing department (i.e. I refuse to consider Wish + Protect a viable option, and will henceforth not acknowledge that it learns Wish at all), and walling Fighters department. But it can be an OK general bulkmon for stall who provides Heal Bell, then either Stealth Rock, or isn't total lolbait like all other stall clerics (togetic, licki, audino, aroma cannot run another another move, Lanturn kinda meh and has no healing itself) since it can run STAB + Recovery + Heal Bell + (Twave / Encore / Flame or knock teamspecific)

for the sake of avoiding future conflicts, i won't mention CM as a potential fourth option ever again. I don't even endorse using it.

 

[Helias]

B+ --> A-
Toad is a really good defensive/utility mon in the current meta. It beats quite a few common Pokemon and is really handy with Stealth Rock, access to Knock Off, and decent offensive stats.

A- --> A/A+
Like Toad, Heliolisk is really good in the current meta. It resides in a good speed tier of 109 (really fast for a metagame that's generally slower), hits pretty hard, has quite a few great coverage moves that make it really hard to switch in on, and can gain easy momentum with Volt Switch, especially paired with the good speed tier I mentioned.

First nomination I definitely agree with, Seismitoad is quite good in the meta, though I prefer using an offensive SR set; Seismitoad has the coverage and power to get 2HKOs or better on most SR setters (can't 2HKO sdef Druddigon/Bronzong/Registeel but they can't do anything back); the only ones you outright lose to are LO Mesprit and Torterra if I remember correctly (Torterra dies to HP Ice and Wood Hammer recoil though). I also agree with Heliolisk rising to A having used him on literally every team I've made since Mega Pidgeot left, but I don't think he should go any higher than that with Dugtrio running around the tier.

 

[phantom]

Clefairy isn't getting ranked. I like that mon just as much as the next person, but let's be real here: though the calcs showing it has more bulk than Aromatisse vs certain attacks seem impressive, they're pretty deceptive towards what's actually the case. In other words, when you factor in the fact that Aromatisse has Leftovers recovery, it actually takes less net damage to the attacks Clefairy takes overall. The problem with Clefairy in general is that it's significantly more susceptible to Knock Off, which makes it an incredibly poor Fighting check when it loses like half its bulk upon switching into those Pokemon. There's also the fact that again, other defensive Fairy-types, namely Aromatisse, exist, and this doesn't happen to Aromatisse after it takes a Knock Off: 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 188-222 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Clefairy's movepool is better and has some overall perks, but when it is absolutely dependant on Eviolite to function and there exist more reliable defensive Fairy-types, it's difficult to justify its use on any serious team.

 

[atomicllamas]

Moved Reuniclus up to S rank, I'm not doing other updates at the moment cause I don't want to read through the thread right now, but almost everyone seemed in agreement about Reuniclus for S rank, and Reuniclus is a top 3 mon so

 

[Natural Talent]

With the rise of hazard setters like qwilfish and crustle (earlier when custap first released) accelgor has fallen from grace.

I have notice that it has another use which is offensive.

I would say it should be around A to A-.

Not many things switch into a powerful specs or Life orb Bug Buzz much less the coverage or has for the switch ins.

Like in cases of most choices users it's well to have a move to pick up momentum on switch outs like u-turn or volt switch and thankfully accelgor has u-turn and baton pass ( if your scared of pursuiters)

Not much switches in to it and much less revenges it besides scarfers faster than base 80s with a jolly nature. So your beloved scarfed boar is not revenging it and still gets hit by a strong neutral Focus Blast.

Overall I think it's a cool mon and is pretty underrated due to only being known as an outclassed spike setter.

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright a couple of us went through and made some changes based on posts in here and our own thoughts, the following changes have been made, post if you have any disagreements.

changes

Dugtrio ---> Rise to S rank
Meloetta ---> Drop to A rank
Seismitoad ---> Rise to A-
Tangrowth ---> Rise to A-
Eelektross ---> Drop to B rank
Bannette (Mega) ---> Drop to B- rank
Quagsire ---> Rise to B rank
Sigilyph ---> Rise to B rank
Torterra ---> Rise to B rank
Golbat ---> Drop to C+ rank
Cradily ---> Rise to C+ rank
Musharna ---> Drop to C rank
Sneasel ---> Rise to C+

things we want more discussion on

Either brought up and earlier and we weren't convinced either way, or we just thought of these ourselves and weren't sure

Virizion, up to A?
Hitmonlee, down to A-?
Mega Camerupt, down to A-?
Delphox, up to B+?
Jynx, up to B?
Hariyama, up to C+?

Spirit edit:

Cress moved down to A+ after discussions on IRC.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Qwilfish for A:

After extensive testing with qwilfish I feel it should move up to A. Simply put it this thing is the face of spikes stacking offense. Compared to other spikes stackers it has more opportunities to set them up. It's ability and typing let it blanket check a fair portion of the tier. Access to taunt is awesome to block defog and compared to other spikes stackers it's more reliable then them. So for those reasons qwilfish for A.

 

[FirstWorldProblems]

I feel that Virizion should stay A- rank.

Virizion has great STAB coverage in Grass / Fighting, which allows it to hit a good portion of the metagame for huge amounts of damage, which makes it great for handling bulky Water-types such as Alomomola, Quagsire, Jellicent and even Slowking. Its fantastic offensive typing (along with the support of Stone Edge, Hidden power [Rock], or Zen Headbutt as well) really helps it after setting-up with either Swords Dance or Calm Mind, and this really helps support Virizions role as a late-game sweeper after its threats are defeated with other teammates. Furthermore, it boasts an excellent base 108 Speed-tier, which helps it to sweep efficently. (Thanks Guidorealmsmc for noticing my mistake, lol)

However, with its 4x weakness to Flying and disappointing 72 base defense, it's tough for Virizion to take any powerful physical-type attack well, which does preventing it from sweeping all the time. It also has to have good support around it in order for it to do its job properly, as with only 90 / 90 offenses, it won't be doing that much damage before setting-up, and therefore definitely appreciates early-game wallbreakers (especially to remove threats such as Amoonguss, Cresselia, Doublade, and Whimsicott) and entry hazards such as Stealth Rock and Spikes.

While I think Virizion is a superb Pokemon in the RU tier right now that I like to run a lot, I just think the increase to A rank is just pushing it a bit too far.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

I feel that Virizion should stay A- rank.

Virizion has great STAB coverage in Grass / Fighting, which allows it to hit a good portion of the metagame for huge amounts of damage, which makes it great for handling bulky Water-types such as Alomomola, Quagsire, Jellicent and even Slowking. Its fantastic offensive typing (along with the support of Stone Edge, Hidden power [Rock], or Zen Headbutt as well) really helps it after setting-up with either Swords Dance or Calm Mind, and this really helps support Virizions role as a late-game sweeper after its threats are defeated with other teammates. Furthermore, it boasts an excellent base 108 Speed-tier, which outspeeds non-scarf Delphox, Zoroark, and the like.

However, with its 4x weakness to Flying and disappointing 72 base defense, it's tough for Virizion to take any powerful physical-type attack well, which does preventing it from sweeping all the time. It also has to have good support around it in order for it to do its job properly, as with only 90 / 90 offenses, it won't be doing that much damage before setting-up, and therefore definitely appreciates early-game wallbreakers (especially to remove threats such as Amoonguss, Cresselia, Doublade, and Whimsicott) and entry hazards such as Stealth Rock and Spikes.

While I think Virizion is a superb Pokemon in the RU tier right now that I like to run a lot, I just think the increase to A rank is just pushing it a bit too far.

I hate to burst you're bubble but zoroark was banned a long time ago. Also Hitmonlee dropping to A- is something I disagree with because golbat dropped in viability as did aromatisse cus m-lix but for being the best offensive spinner alongside a strong af wallbreaker is something I don't wanna see below A.

 

[Mariode]

should be B+.
Amoongus has a good amount of HP combined with acceptable Defense-Stats and the Regenerator Ablility. It can slow down a lot of Pokemon with Spore and give some "free turns" to the Team. In addtion, almost every Pokemon that is immune to Spore is hit very hard by Poison-type attacks, making it difficult to switch in
without ending with a sleeping Pokemon. It can counter set-up sweepers like Doublade and Tyrantrum with Clear Smog and physical sweepers in general with Foul Play. And if hit, it can restore HP simply by switching out. Having acess to the moves Giga Drain and Synthesis and the Black Sludge gives Amoongus even more ways to recover. The typing prevents toxic-stalling and Leech Seed to work on Amoongus. It may have a lot of weaknesses but these are these are mostly negated by the given recovery options. Spore and Poison-STAB makes it difficult for Pokemon capable of taking Amoongus down to switch in. If you don't bring Amoongus to 0, it will likely heal up. And wihout the right weapon, Amoongus will be there for a long time. Amoongus is very useful and tricky to take down, and therefore it deserves a slightly better Rank.

 

[Kableye]

Also Hitmonlee dropping to A- is something I disagree with because golbat dropped in viability as did aromatisse cus m-lix but for being the best offensive spinner alongside a strong af wallbreaker is something I don't wanna see below A.

I disagree, if you think about it Lee isn't that great of a spinner. It's awkward speed tier just below the base 95's and 0 physical defense means that it has trouble spinning on a lot in this tier. Sure a Scarf set patches this, but locking yourself into Rapid Spin is a huge lose of momentium in most cases. Not only that but it's beaten by just about every spin blocker I can think of except maybe SpDef Jellicent. I've also found it extremely easily to widdle down on spikes stacking, Life Orb+Spikes+T Spikes takes away like half its health every time it comes in to spin. It also switches in on little, where as Hitmontop and Skuntank both can switch into common attacks. As a wall breaker, it hits hard but High Jump Kick is a move thats easily to take advantage of. Sure it's the best offensive spinner, but it's still not the best hazard remover, A- is perfect for Hitmonlee.