Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

[Lord Death Man]

I know I nommed Kabutops up before on the basis of Rapid Spin, but this time I want to nominate it based on SD, which I hadn't used before. I think B or B- at least.

Major points
+ Switches in on Fletchinder and sets up (especially if Lum)
+ Is significantly stronger. Kabutop's stone edge is like 35% stronger than Samurott's Megahorn, which helps it beat things that resist water and are neutral to bug/rock, which is essentially every Megahorn target except Slowking and Tangrowth. Key points being OHKOing Amoonguss if Life Orb. KOs 252/0 Mega Steelix with Waterfall at +2 if Life Orb.
+ Not walled by Jellicent.
+ Weak Armor is a strong ability if you get lucky with predicts (such as a defensive Flygon U-turning on you). Swift swim eases matchup versus Rain since Kabutops is one of the fastest rain abusers. Battle Armor is consistent.
+ Outspeeds Adamant Absol and dodges Sucker Punch
+ Sets up on some niche mons Samurott can't (Life Orb Druddigon without stab, choice locked Braviary, probably some others)
+ Lures in ghost types because of the spin set, that it then beats.
+ Has a roll at +2 with a LO vs Jolteon, whereas Samurott doesn't.

- Virizion is a free switch in.
- Worse typing overall - fails to threaten Hitmonlee and Gurdurr, and has less set-up chances.
- No Torrent.
- Less bulk.

It has legitimate uses over it's closest competition and is, in my opinion, a very decent set. The significantly higher power before boosting is probably it's biggest difference. The speed and power have made it feel a lot stronger versus offensive teams, which I feel were Samurott's worst match up, and many balance and stall teams have a mon (bulky waters, fairies, etc) Kabutops can set up on if it can get in safely.

EDIT:

I also think Zangoose ranked at C would be nice. Zangoose is one of the single scariest wallbreakers, and is only held back by it's serious flaws in it's Bulk, defensive Typing and reliance on Toxic/Toxic Orb. 90 Speed is really good for a wallbreaker, it has the coverage to back up Facade, access to both Swords Dance and Quick Attack as 4th moves make it hard to deal with. It's also a decent emergency Toxic switch in, and several mons commonly run toxic (Blastoise, Mega Steelix) and are somewhat easy to bait into using it.

 

[phantom]

updates:

Rotom-C down to B+
Mega Glalie down to A
Uxie down to B
Poliwrath up to B+
Mawile added to C+
Roselia down to B-
Vileplume unranked

Charizard, Diancie, Manectric, and Venusaur added to new pkmn rank. Discussion on them is not allowed for at least 3 days (preferably 5).

Needs more discussion:

Bronzong to A

 

[Take Azelfie]

Agreeing with Bronzong to A

Bronzong is one of the few pokemon that can check all 3 S Rank pokemon reliably. It dodges the Toxic and Earthquake's from MLix while also being extremely heavy making the damage from Heavy Slam to do a lot (A note that Bronzong can't do much back besides set up Stealth Rocks or Screens.) It eats Snow Attacks up and while Bronzong is slow it is still doing at least 60% of its health (more speed only equals more damage) and It take Outrage, EQ, and Head Smash from Tyrantrum while Superpower 32.2 - 38.1% (if jolly) not to mention it can come in on pokemon such as specs meloetta, Mega Glalie. I do know about its weakness to dark and fire which are pretty common but on the playstyles Bronzong fits best on (Balance and BO... and I guess TR but that isn't really common) it is usually paired with something to deal with those pokemon.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I really don't personally think Bronzong should move up because, while it does hardwall several massive threats, it's really passive, reliant on lefties to recover, prone to pursuit trapping and is absolute set up bait for a ton of other threats. It needs quite a bit of support to stick around as well.

It doesn't get the lefties heal on Maboma, which sucks for it, more and more Meloettas have shadow ball for Slowking or Uturn plus Pursuit trappers for King + Zong, and while it is a decent stop to Tyrantrum, it doesn't do well on the teams that are actively seeking Tyrantrum checks because of its passivity. It forces Steelix out but can't stop Lix from throwing up rocks, so the Steelix user isn't as a huge loss there.

It's matchup versus S rank is stellar, but its matchup versus most of A+ and A is much more mixed.

 

[Hopeee]

I agree with much of what LDM said above. Bronzong is definitely one of the tier's best Stealth Rock users in the tier, and one of the best special walls in the tier too. However, it loses to many common things in the tier like Knock Off/Dark-type moves and Fire-type moves. It's also pretty passive, and is walled by some pretty important threats like Mlix, Alom (although it can't do anything back), Tang, etc. It's also severely hindered by status such as burn.

Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard/Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Freeze-Dry

Also here's something cool that I've been using lately. Vanilluxe has a niche in RU as it has the most powerful Freeze-Dry in the tier. Also it has the ability to come in on a neutral or resisted phys atk, get the weak armor boost, and then proceed to clean up a team, or just wreck some havoc. It is also just a great nuke to unprepared teams, as Ice Beam, does a ton to all mons that do not resist it. Although it may seem outclassed by M-Glalie at first, Vanilluxe has a more powerful Freeze-Dry and is specially based unlike M-Glalie. Because of this I nominate it for C- rank.

Edit: Vanilluxe also has a niche over Aurorus as it is faster than it and, as stated above has a more powerful freeze-dry, allowing it to be able to take care of water types better than Aurorus, who's typing allows it to be pretty easily beaten by them. It also gets Ice Shard, allowing it to not get beaten by one of the biggest threats in the tier, Flygon. Also as Aurorus's typing may be seen as a blessing, it really doesn't seem that great when you look at it a bit more. It loses to grass types, has a 4x weakness to fighting, loses to water types, and a nasty 4x weakness to steel. And this all comes at the cost of now taking neutral damage from fire types and a resistance to flying, normal, and poison, and the last two types aren't even used that often offensively. However, they are pretty different too, as Aurorus serves more as an anti-lead (as it beats many of the most common leads out there rn), while the ice cream cone is used more as a wallbreaker.

Edit #2: Mons Vanilluxe outspeeds that Aurorus doesn't. This is based off of mons that may run offensive sets or speed ev's.: Abomasnow, Absol, Clawitzer, Emboar, Magneton, Does not speed tie Scrafty, Seismitoad, Smeargle, and Tyrantrum. As you can see, there is a lot that Vanill gets the better of, and can KO with Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry/HP Ground. This list does not even contain all of the things that are in NU that are also viable in RU, but I guess I might as well make a list of that too right here: Ludicolo, Malamar and Samurott. And yes, I know that on Aurorus you will be running Timid most likely while Vanilluxe will be running Mild/Modest, but if you're running Timid on Vanill, that still is a sizable list of critical threats in the current metagame that can be outsped and possibly KO'd.

I also decided to add some calcs just to have some base damage to go off of for Aurorus and Vanilluxe. At the bottom I'm also putting some other calcs of Vanilluxe vs current walls and offensive mons..
Calcs: 252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 146-173 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 122-146 (35.7 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And yes I know this is a Timid Aurorus, but most would be running Timid anyways. If you want Modest I can add that if you want, but I digress. Vanilluxe wasn't doing as much with Ice Beam has Aurorus was with Hyper Voice, but a 6% difference in max damage really isn't that bad. I know that I have been stressing it's Freeze Dry a lot recently, but as you can see it really is very powerful, and it's min damage is equal to Aurorus's max damage.

More Calcs:
For Ice Cream
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 265-315 (67.4 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 330-393 (65.8 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 315-374 (82 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 390-460 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For Aurorus
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 226-268 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 283-335 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 268-320 (69.7 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 330-393 (99.6 - 118.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Edit #3: Ik I am spending way to much time on this post. But I would like to thank everyone for their replies. They have been really insightful and while we may have opinions of our own, it's always nice to hear other people's opinions on certain mons and Idk thanks :)

 

[tehy]

Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Freeze-Dry

Also here's something cool that I've been using lately. Vanilluxe has a niche in RU as it has the most powerful Freeze-Dry in the tier. Also it has the ability to come in on a neutral or resisted phys atk, get the weak armor boost, and then proceed to clean up a team, or just wreck some havoc. It is also just a great nuke to unprepared teams, as Ice Beam, does a ton to all mons that do not resist it. Although it may seem outclassed by M-Glalie at first, Vanilluxe has a more powerful Freeze-Dry and is specially based unlike M-Glalie. Because of this I nominate it for C- rank.

frankly its greatest competition is Aurorus; you should post about why I should use this > aurorus

why i should use aurorus: aurorus has earth power>HP ground and a much stronger stab (either sub-piercing refrigerate hyper voice or blizzard + hail summoning to chip the opponent). and while its defensive typing blows, it's not much worse than vanilluxe's all told (also offers a sick flying resistance which every team could use more of). Meanwhile its raw bulk is actually solid af assuming you can find some non-SE attacks for it to take. It can fit rocks if your team needs it, or rock polish if your team doesn't (or rock stab if you're really jonesing for it), it can even fit HP fire just to make escav weep and to hit bronzong (come to think, why are you using HP ground at all?)

what i'm seeing in vanilluxe's column is: slightly better defensive typing (i guess it takes bullet punches easier), more speed, stronger freeze dry / hp fire, weak armor, ice shard

but since i haven't used it, i leave it to you to explain: why this > aurorus?

edit:

Edit: Vanilluxe also has a niche over Aurorus as it is faster than it and, as stated above has a more powerful freeze-dry, allowing it to be able to take care of water types better than Aurorus, who's typing allows it to be pretty easily beaten by them. It also gets Ice Shard, allowing it to not get beaten by one of the biggest threats in the tier, Flygon. Also as Aurorus's typing may be seen as a blessing, it really doesn't seem that great when you look at it a bit more. It loses to grass types, has a 4x weakness to fighting, loses to water types, and a nasty 4x weakness to steel. And this all comes at the cost of now taking neutral damage from fire types and a resistance to flying, normal, and poison, and the last two types aren't even used that often offensively. However, they are pretty different too, as Aurorus serves more as an anti-lead (as it beats many of the most common leads out there rn), while the ice cream cone is used more as a wallbreaker.

What does that more powerful freeze dry do for it in terms of 2HKOes / OHKOes?
The 4X weakness to fighting presupposes that vanilluxe is taking fighting hits; I guess gurdurr's mach punch counts (lee's too, though it's faster.) And while aurorus doesn't want to switch in on a scald / giga drain, vanilluxe isn't great at it either, and aurorus can come in on sludge bomb much more easily.

As for the speed; what threats do you outspeed and why does it matter? CB tyrantrum? Clawitzer? I await your reply.

Also, people do in fact use aurorus as a wallbreaker; if they didn't, though, and it was a better wallbreaker than Vanilluxe, then that tells you just about all you need to know.

Anyhow, the things you mentioned aren't bad, but they're still not '30% stronger STAB'.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I agree with much of what LDM said above. Bronzong is definitely one of the tier's best Stealth Rock users in the tier, and one of the best special walls in the tier too. However, it loses to many common things in the tier like Knock Off/Dark-type moves and Fire-type moves. It's also pretty passive, and is walled by some pretty important threats like Mlix, Alom (although it can't do anything back), Tang, etc. It's also severely hindered by status such as burn.

Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard/Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Freeze-Dry

Also here's something cool that I've been using lately. Vanilluxe has a niche in RU as it has the most powerful Freeze-Dry in the tier. Also it has the ability to come in on a neutral or resisted phys atk, get the weak armor boost, and then proceed to clean up a team, or just wreck some havoc. It is also just a great nuke to unprepared teams, as Ice Beam, does a ton to all mons that do not resist it. Although it may seem outclassed by M-Glalie at first, Vanilluxe has a more powerful Freeze-Dry and is specially based unlike M-Glalie. Because of this I nominate it for C- rank.

Edit: Vanilluxe also has a niche over Aurorus as it is faster than it and, as stated above has a more powerful freeze-dry, allowing it to be able to take care of water types better than Aurorus, who's typing allows it to be pretty easily beaten by them. It also gets Ice Shard, allowing it to not get beaten by one of the biggest threats in the tier, Flygon. Also as Aurorus's typing may be seen as a blessing, it really doesn't seem that great when you look at it a bit more. It loses to grass types, has a 4x weakness to fighting, loses to water types, and a nasty 4x weakness to steel. And this all comes at the cost of now taking neutral damage from fire types and a resistance to flying, normal, and poison, and the last two types aren't even used that often offensively. However, they are pretty different too, as Aurorus serves more as an anti-lead (as it beats many of the most common leads out there rn), while the ice cream cone is used more as a wallbreaker.

Edit #2: Mons Vanilluxe outspeeds that Aurorus doesn't. This is based off of mons that may run offensive sets or speed ev's.: Abomasnow, Absol, Clawitzer, Emboar, Magneton, Does not speed tie Scrafty, Seismitoad, Smeargle, and Tyrantrum. As you can see, there is a lot that Vanill gets the better of, and can KO with Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry/HP Ground. This list does not even contain all of the things that are in NU that are also viable in RU, but I guess I might as well make a list of that too right here: Ludicolo, Malamar and Samurott. And yes, I know that on Aurorus you will be running Timid most likely while Vanilluxe will be running Mild/Modest, but if you're running Timid on Vanill, that still is a sizable list of critical threats in the current metagame that can be outsped and possibly KO'd.

I also decided to add some calcs just to have some base damage to go off of for Aurorus and Vanilluxe. At the bottom I'm also putting some other calcs of Vanilluxe vs current walls and offensive mons..
Calcs: 252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 146-173 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 122-146 (35.7 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And yes I know this is a Timid Aurorus, but most would be running Timid anyways. If you want Modest I can add that if you want, but I digress. Vanilluxe wasn't doing as much with Ice Beam has Aurorus was with Hyper Voice, but a 6% difference in max damage really isn't that bad. I know that I have been stressing it's Freeze Dry a lot recently, but as you can see it really is very powerful, and it's min damage is equal to Aurorus's max damage.

More Calcs:
For Ice Cream
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 265-315 (67.4 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 330-393 (65.8 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 315-374 (82 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 390-460 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For Aurorus
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 226-268 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 283-335 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 268-320 (69.7 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 330-393 (99.6 - 118.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

My problem with this nomination is that Aurorus is D rank and pretty much everyone can agree Aurorus is better than Vanilluxe so why would we even rank it? I wouldn't be opposed of this if Aurorus was like C+ or B- but I can't really see it getting any better. Even if it was nominated I wouldn't consider it for any serious so it go D rank IMO. Also I would like to note all of these calcs can be pretty much achieved if the opponent has taken Stealth Rock damage as well. It can separate itself with Signal Beam to hit psychic-types and Automatize would probably be the only reason I would consider it for nominations outside of maybe being good for hazard control (gets speed boost from Rapid Spin and threatens Defoggers.) But Signal Beam is really needed as the tiers is filled with dark-types and can be filled by a teammate. And when I'm using Automatize as an example we have to remember that Regice exists as it can Rock Polish a lot easier thanks to the amazing bulk it posseses. Sorry if this comment is really clunky Sorry Fineon that I had to shoot this down.

edit: also fineon if you are going to use a 100 mon for the freeze-dry calc you should have used manaphy so we can get a better feel for difference

 

[Punchshroom]

Not only is having 'the strongest Freeze-Dry in the tier' irrelevant when it doesn't seem to snag 2HKOes / OHKOes any better than other Ice-type wallbreakers in the tier, but there is simply too much competition for Vanilluxe to even rear its head.

What does Vanilluxe even offer over Mega Abomasnow, regular Abomasnow, and Aurorus? Those three easily surpass the gap in power with their far stronger attacks in Blizzard and Refrigerate Hyper Voice (plus Abomasnow doesn't need Freeze-Dry when it has STAB Grass moves), have far superior coverage , and even provide mild defensive utility (yes even Aurorus which at the very least keeps Fletchinder at bay, while Vanilluxe checks precisely nothing), so pretty much the only remaining reason to ever look at Vanilluxe's direction would be for its Speed. And even in that department, the number of mons Vanilluxe notably beats that Aurorus doesn't is extremely miniscule:
- Aurorus still outspeeds the likes of Alomomola, Blastoise, Jellicent, Hitmontop, non-Rain sweeper Seismitoad, and non-max Speed Abomasnow; if you are concerned about Rain sweeper Seismitoad, Abomasnow is still a far better choice since it shuts down Rain altogether
- Banette-Mega needs to be low enough for Vanilluxe's Ice Shard to pick it off or it pretty much won't matter who outspeeds
- Absol's LO Sucker Punch KOes after SR so you still need a better / more reliable revenge killer anyway
- If you're that worried about Clawitzer (in which case you really should be worrying about a lot more), you should consider max Speed Abomasnow before Vanilluxe
- Vanilluxe cannot KO a healthy Exploud, Scrafty, Hitmontop, and Emboar, and it's not like any of them appreciate switching into Aurorus directly so the matchup isn't even substantially improved
- Both Emboar and Tyrantrum are popular Scarfers
- Abomasnow fares better against Smeargle than Vanilluxe would, due to Spore immunity + Hail picking off Sash.

So that leaves the only consistent reasoning to warrant Vanilluxe over either Aurorus or Abomasnow is....if you reeeally want to kill Magneton that badly, which is the kind of extremely shallow reasoning that people use to justify Ambipom / Typhlosion over the alternatives. Vanilluxe doesn't have business in RU any more than those E Ranks.

 

[Miyami~~]

Based on discussion in the PS Chat, we're going to need to add Venusaur to Conclusion reached fairly quickly.

Anyways, back on subject.

Vanilluxe: What does this thing have that Aurorus doesn't, outside of having less weaknesses? Aurorus just does things better than Vanilluxe. While Autotomize and Signal Beam are cool, Vanilluxe has issues sticking around, similar to Aurorus, and while Vanilluxe may have better stats than Aurorus, It lacks the massive Coverage that Aurorus has or the Secondary STAB that Aboma has, and has to instead rely on punching holes with ice STABs, [even in your set you had 3 Ice Moves] which is a bit of an issue when many things can switch in on Ice Decently, even in hail.

Leave Unranked

Bronzong: Disagree, unfortunately. While it is one of the only things in the tier that reliably checks all 3 S Tiers reliably, while also having uses as a Rocker, Screen setter, or Trick Room Setter, it's passive, lacks reliable recovery, is easily pursuit trapped, and set up on very easily. Bronzong is amazing, though I personally don't think it's A. A- seems fine to me.

EDIT: Nom of my own.

Mega Banette: B- -> C+/C
There's a total of 6 megas in the tier: 3 physical, 3 special. The physical ones seem to have an issue: Why run them when you can just run Steelix? This is the issue with Mega Banette as a mega evolution in that there isn't much to do with it. To quote Punchshroom -

%Punchshroom: when, in the ever loving hell, would anyone use MNette unless they're going out of their way to do so?

I feel like this sums up Mega Banette perfectly. Last tier shift dumped a bunch of viable dark types, which hurts Mega Banette even further, which, compounded by it's awful speed stat forces it to rely on Sucker Punch, a non-stab move that can be worked around easily. You can exploit this often to give yourself a few turns of setup if you need them, unless Meganette is running Taunt for some reason, or if it switches to another attacking move, it'll most likely be slower because Mega Banette moves like a brick. Priority Will-O-Wisp, while cool, isn't worth giving up your mega slot to use it solely for that purpose, especially considering most teams have some form of fire switch-in or status absorber. This leaves Meganette's only real niche as priority Destiny Bond. But, let me ask you this:

Why on earth are you giving up your mega evolution spot just to have it kill itself every battle?
That's even ignoring the fact that Destiny Bond is fairly easily played around, either by just not attacking and exhausting Destiny Bond's PP, hitting it with Toxic, or doing something else to force a switch.

Mega Banette is also fairly frail, which, combined with its poor speed tier, makes it easily revenged if it ever manages to kill something, and is weak to pursuit, meaning sometimes you can kill it without having to worry about destiny bond.

Now, why is Mega Banette in B-? Is it on par with Accelgor, Braviary, and Hitmontop?

No. Even with the Argument that Accelgor isn't B-, it's not on Par with Braviary and Hitmontop. Even if they aren't all that's in B-, let's take a look at why B- is B-:

LO Spikes Lead, Unmatchable Speed Tier, Ability to actually trade 1 for 1 with Final Gambit, Decently powerful, able to fend off Rockers with energy ball.

Bulky Wish Passer that isn't weak to Grass [with the exception of virizion] while still possessing Regenerator.

The most useful thing it has is Priority Destiny Bond, I guess?

Sheer Physical power combined with perfect neutral coverage.

Movepool provides great coverage while also having an ability to boost the power even further to make it a great special wallbreaker.

Rapid Spinner with foresight to bypass spinblockers with a helpful ability.

Can use Lovely Kiss to give itself free turns to set up or sweep, and has Dry Skin to create switch-in turns.

Good Bulk, decent defensive typing combined with Thick Fat to mitigate some of its weaknesses, and a rocker for Hail teams.

Great Defensive typing, Reliable Recovery, and Defog in one slot.

Bulky Spiker for Stall, reliable recovery, and a Status Absorber with Natural cure.

Able to give itself free turns to set up with Compoundeyes + Sleep Powder, access to arguably the best boosting move in the game in Quiver Dance, and 2 powerful dual STABs in Hurricane [which is boosted with Comboundeyes] and Bug Buzz.

Looking at these, Mega Banette just doesn't compare to the rest of B- and has too many glaring flaws to remain there, at least in my eyes. C+ or even C seem better for it.

EDIT: Another Glaring issue with Mega Banette is how hard it is to actually fit onto a team. It isn't splashable in the slightest, and literally any niche you could come up for it outside of priority destiny bond is performed by something else. There's also the issue of how Disgistingly telegraphed Priority Destiny bond is. It's easier for Sharpedo to use it because after a few speed boosts, you outspeed almost anything and nobody's expecting it. With Banette, everyone who's somewhat experienced will see you trying to destiny bond and either sac something unimportant or set up Hazards, boost, roar it out, status it, or do anything to it.

Tl;Dr: It's extremely difficult to use with very little reward and is easily played around while many other things can do what it does without taking up a mega slot.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Audino
B- ---> C/C-

Why has no one knocked this thing down yet. It is really inferior to Aromatisse, Mega Audino and Alomomola. I won't say it isn't completely outclassed as it has Regenerator like Mola and doesn't waste a mega slot but I would still hardly ever use this on any serious team since it is mostly outclassed by Aromatisse who has a better defensive typing. It is also set up bait for most pokemon and it doesn't even use its one move that can actually differentiate itself from the other two wish passers being Thunder Wave.

Accelgor
B- ---> B/B+

I think most people can agree that Life Orb Accelgor is amazing. Its fast than effective. Bug Buzz allows it hit troublesome dark and psychic-types that teams may have trouble dealing and if your opponent needs to preserve a mon you are about to kill you can punish with a layer of spikes. Also Accelgor is one of the best suicide leads to since you can set up at least two layers most of the time as your fast speed helps out a lot.

Can someone also update these sprites also my OCD is killing me 0_o

 

[Hopeee]

Audino
B- ---> C/C-

Why has no one knocked this thing down yet. It is really inferior to Aromatisse, Mega Audino and Alomomola. I won't say it isn't completely outclassed as it has Regenerator like Mola and doesn't waste a mega slot but I would still hardly ever use this on any serious team since it is mostly outclassed by Aromatisse who has a better defensive typing. It is also set up bait for most pokemon and it doesn't even use its one move that can actually differentiate itself from the other two wish passers being Thunder Wave.

I can understand this, but I do say that one niche Audino has is Knock Off when comparing it with Aromatisse. You can also argue that the typings even out, as Aromatisse is basically KO'd by all the steel-types in the tier, which are a lot, while Audino dies to all of the plentiful fighting-types.
Also in some ways it's hard to compare them, as Audino is more of a special wall while Aromatisse is more of a physical tier. But I agree with Audino to C

 

[eren]

uh can i please be explained as to why vileplume was unranked???

sure you can argue venusaur eclipses it overall as an offensive grass/poison while amoon outclasses it on the defensive end of the spectrum. but saying vileplume is juxtaposed to things like ambipom, cincinno, and typhlosion is downright isane in my eyes. since role compression is one of the most important things in ru atm because of the threats all over the place and vileplume just fulfills the term "role compression" in every sense of the phrase. it does what neither amoonguss or venusaur, barring in the sun for the latter, can do. which is beat scrafty, aromatherapy for your team, and heal itself in one moveset. it can also fit sleep powder over aromatherapy if you are feeling cheesy. i think the sole reason of role compression pushes things like poliwrath, mega steelix, and even hariyama to where they are at now, although the latter will probably lose some usage because of the arrival of diancie. i know vileplume was on "conclusion reached" for a bit but i cant stand the notion that it doesnt even belong in d rank, as it obviously outdoes the aforementioned ambipom. it also has much more of a niche than mawile imo.

bronzong should definitely move up, it checks so much as well as the one of the most up and coming threats in the tier, diancie. it also counters mega lix, checks fletchinder and aero, sets rocks and toxics. not much to say, its really good right now

guess not much else to say. i like the other changes mentioned bar the ice cream mon being ranked

for clarity's sake, im calling for it to be reranked not moved up (vileplume)

 

[SilentVerse]

wtf is plume's moveset if you're running Aromatherapy / Moonblast / Synthesis in one moveset... losing either Sludge Bomb or Giga Drain means you lose to things you're supposed to beat as a Vileplume (bad), if you replace Aromatherapy or Moonblast you are literally just a worse Amoonguss or Venusaur, and if you get rid of Synthesis you're basically only running plume on Alomomola teams that need a cleric and a scrafty check, which is niche as fuk (as niche as Jumpluff even.). Vileplume was cool as an offensive Grass / Poison before Venusaur dropped, but now its 90% outclassed by Venusaur and Amoonguss in both of the roles that it can do. A 10% chance of it being marginally more effective than either of Amoonguss or Venusaur is not enough of a niche to rank it on this list, otherwise literally every other mon in RU would be ranked.

 

[eren]

I dont give a shit if this gets deleted but can you people please stick it in your heads that vileplume, unlike venusaur and amoonguss
BEATS FUCKING SCRAFTY
Thats it, theres your niche, thats what kept ir on rank c before and literally nothing changed w these 4 drops.

i was calling for it to be reranked not moved up

 

[phantom]

Cut it out with this Vileplume bullshit. Any more posts on it being ranked will be deleted and infracted. It's been explained so many times now why being a worse Amoonguss that can beat Scrafty (which Amoonguss can still do when specialized, something no one has refuted thus far) is not good enough to be ranked. Now it's also outclassed offensively by Venusaur. Vileplume shouldn't even be your Scrafty check because that goes under the assumption that you're running other Dark checks incapable of beating Absol/Sharpedo. All it does is patch up flaws for poorly built teams. Let's move on, already.

 

[MrAldo]

Well, guess that cat is out of the pack.

Disagree completely with bronzong to A. While it does supplement a huge amount of teams virtue of the multitude of threats it can keep at bay, in practice it gets easily overwhelmed virtue of its passive nature, reliance on its item (pretty much restating what lord death man said but eh) and dark types being pretty prevalent give bronzong a rough time overall, with dark types there is also a prevalence of potential pursuit users. One cant deny its excellent matchup against multitude of threats (tyrantrum, mega aboma, mega glalie, etc) but thats precisely why it is A- in the first place. Respect the bell but it can just handle that much, it should stay in A-

Accelgor to B or B+ even is something I can get behind. LO sets have been really effective for a long time, contrary to the focus sash set which is still pretty effective, the LO set does have utility during mid and late game being a surprisingly good cleaner being able to outspeed positive 80 base scarfers like medicham and tyrantrum, which is absolutely huge for offensive teams, while being able to set up spikes by getting surprise kills and 2hko (defog togetic is literally 2hkod after some prior damage, spdef flygon cant roost on it risking a spdef drop from bug buzz) and matchup against opposing hazard setters improves with this set a bit. Not a big fan of spikes on the LO set given that is pretty risky but it works really well on practice. Will settle for B on this thing, love it.

How much time to discuss a placement for the new drops? Diancie looking really rock solid for what Ive seen so far.

 

[Punchshroom]

So Clawitzer is already usurped pretty hard by Samurott as a Water-type wallbreaker, but what I want to know is why Clawitzer is still above Ludicolo in ranking. Many people are of the belief that Ludicolo can only operate as a Rain sweeper, but since MAboma is one of the most dominant Pokemon in the tier, that means Ludicolo's niche is lost. What people don't seem to spot is that Ludicolo's wallbreaking movepool is just as potent, if not more so; a moveset of Hydro Pump / Giga Drain / Ice Beam / Focus Blast (primarily for MAboma, but can be used for other targets such as Exploud) lets Ludicolo easily contend with Clawitzer. What's more, Ludicolo can possibly aim for a sweep if it has a teammate to set up Rain for it, whereas Clawitzer has no such option and is stuck in its poor Speed tier relative for a wallbreaker.

I can already foresee some arguments like 1) Rott and Ludi's use of the inaccurate Hydro Pump compared to Clawitzer's Scald makes them less consistent, and 2) Clawitzer has Sludge Bomb to heavily pressure Aromatisse and U-turn to nab momentum, so Clawitzer still has some niches. To which I respond to 1): if anything, it is Clawitzer that wishes for Hydro Pump, plus it's not like the other two make bad use of Scald, and 2) Clawitzer is not even a great user of U-turn since it has neither the bulk nor Speed to pull that off effectively, and being able to pressure Aromatisse better certainly does not make up for the complete inability to break past Alomomola whatsoever, which is just a travesty when your main role is supposed to be a stallbreaker.

Tl;dr, I hardly see any reason to use Clawitzer these days. I don't really mind where these two end up specifically, just drop Clawitzer from B- and perhaps bump up Ludicolo from D, so long as Ludicolo ranks above Clawitzer.

 

[EonX]

Bronzong: If we're considering the new drops, Bronzong should absolutely be A rank considering it's really the best surefire stop to Diancie by a long shot. However, if we're not considering new drops yet, Zong should stay A- rank due to its extreme passive nature, lack of reliable recovery, and tendency to be set up on by dangerous offensive Pokemon, such as Virizion and Durant.

Accelgor: I talked about this before the last VR update and I can assure you Accelgor is just as good as it was before the drops, if not better. Energy Ball is more of a necessity now with Diancie in the tier, but hey, at least Accelgor has coverage against it. B+ is where I'd like to end up seeing it as I feel it's a near necessity for offensive teams due to its insane Speed and access to Spikes, but B rank is acceptable. It surely needs a rise in some capacity tho as it's better than every B- rank mon imo.

Audino: Audino probably needs to drop to C+/C rank. It still has a legitimately good niche as a Wish user that doesn't immediately fold to Venusaur and Tangrowth and their Grass + Poison coverage, but it can't really be used outside of Stall teams as it doesn't have a STAB that inflicts status ailments like Alomomola, and it lacks the amazing defensive typing and "decent" offensive presence of Aromatisse, both of which are much better for balance teams.

Won't comment on Ludicolo vs. Clawitzer as I'm very unfamiliar with Ludicolo outside of rain, but I will admit that coverage looks rly cute rn

 

[MaroGod]

Audino to C/C+ is honestly just way too high for it.

I can understand that Reg-Audino allows an open space for another mega and you arent scared of Grass/Poison as the other Wish users but if the play-style it lies in to be effective is stall then honestly C or C+ is just too high of place for such a lackluster reason. My issue with it isn't because its stall but how easy it is to remedy the slight falls of the other passers on it with the addition of a steel-type or poison-type such as Bronzong or Weezing which fit nicely on the playstyle and fix the issue of the other passers which overall isn't that big to begin with. I'm not an avid player of RU and i'm just about to start getting back into it to be completely honest so if there is anything wrong with what i just said feel free to call me out on it but it simply seems if Reg-Audino must be ranked then it should be C- or D.

 

[phantom]

Okay, I guess it's time to start the discussion on the new drops:

Your posting must be based on prior experience with these Pokemon, hence why it was specifically prohibited to post about ranking them within the first few days in the tier so as to avoid nominations based purely on speculation. There will also be a discussion points (though you are free to discuss other things) based on how these Pokemon influenced the tier and to improve the accuracy of the list; as such:

Houndoom down to A- or stay in A
Tangrowth down to A or stay in A+
Mega Camerupt down to B+ or stay in A-
Gurdurr down to B+ or stay in A-
Jolteon down to B or stay in B+

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

Ok lets do this!

Houndoom should stay A:
Diancie dropping definitely didn't help houndoom's cause. However if we look at the other mons that dropped houndoom is decent against them. If you know manectric is choice locked into flamethrower then free switch to hit something hard. It can also outspeed venusaur outside of sun which is also quite nice. Besides for diancie houndoom really hasn't gotten worse from the shifts and worthy of staying A.

Tangrowth down to A:
All of the new drops didn't help out tangrowth too much. Diancie can just setup calm minds vs the defensive set and manectric has flamethrower. Meanwhile zard easily kills it while venusaur literally gets an easy free switch and does lots of damage with sludge bomb to something.

Mega Camerupt stay in A- or even up to A tbh:
Don't know why this thing should drop. It has a great matchup vs all of the new mons. It can live any hit from zard and OHKO with ancientpower or kill after rocks with fire blast. Venusaur is pretty much the same. It's a fantastic manectric check as well. being as mane really can't do much to it. Meanwhile Earth power 2HKOs max/max diancie anyways.

(going to abstain from saying anything about gurdurr here)

Jolteon down to B (possibly even B-):
Frankly now that manectric is here the only reason to use jolteon is as a better specs abuser. Otherwise mane is just so much better. Switcheroo, flamethrower, and overheat make manectric just more worthwhile using since it actually can hit mega steelix and grass types without using a 60 BP unstabbed move or tangrowth with a 75 BP move I guess. It has better stats but the speed is really the only one that matters since it's able to outspeed durant, something manectric can't do without scarf. Manectric also has a better ability in lightningrod which as a fast/frail (jolteon's not that frail although manectric is) special attacker is far more useful to do good damage.

 

[EonX]

Ok, so I'll just go in alphabetical order. I've used all 4 and I'll also comment on some of the other suggestions:

Charizard: Charizard has a place on Sun teams as an incredibly powerful wallbreaker with Choice Specs or a powerful revenge killer with Choice Scarf. Access to Swords Dance and Dragon Dance gives it some use as a physical attacker too. Even though it's largely outclassed by Fletchinder as a physical sweeper, Charizard at least has Fire STAB and Ground coverage. That said, it's got a 4x weakness to Rocks, relies on Sun to be most effective, and is generally outclassed as a physical attacker. I can really only see Charizard in C- / D rank if it gets ranked at all.

Diancie: Diancie is incredibly good in this meta. It can go with Trick Room, Defensive, SubCM, RestTalk CM, Offensive Rocks, and Rock Polish without too many issues. It has a set for every playstyle and is pretty easy to put onto teams. It lets next to nothing in for free with the lone exception of Bronzong (accounting for all sets here) which is pretty easy to switch into. Titanic defenses make up for the low HP and it has ways around its base 50 Speed (TR, RP, or defensive boosting) in order to sweep opposing teams. It's a fantastic Pokemon that can set up or support its team against a ton of top threats in the tier depending on its set. Shallow movepool, but it has basically everything it needs to succeed. I think Diancie should be S rank due to its variety of sets, ability to be used on any playstyle with low opportunity cost, and generally great performance against many of the tier's top threats.

Manectric: Manectric is a pretty good Pokemon. Nothing overwhelming, but it breaks a lot of balance cores due to their reliance on Mega Steelix and Rhyperior as Electric checks. The issue of HP Ice vs. HP Grass hurts quite a bit, but both have good merits and it's hard to go wrong with either one. Life Orb sets are a thorn in the side of most balance teams and Scarf sets aren't exactly terrible either since they put offensive teams in a real bind. I think Manectric fits pretty well into A rank. It has some flaws (namely its Speed tier and HP syndrome) but it's a pretty solid addition to just about any offensive-minded team due to either being able to break balance cores with its Life Orb set or being a pest to offense with Choice Scarf.

Venusaur: Venusaur is in a weird spot. It's basically a cross between Tangrowth and Amoonguss with much greater Speed. Outside of Speed and Special Defense, all of its stats fall inbetween Tangrowth and Amoonguss for the most part. Venusaur's calling cards are its STAB on Sludge Bomb, much higher Speed tier, and extra Fighting- and Fairy-type resistances over Tangrowth. It's hard to compare it to Amoonguss since I feel Venusaur should only be used as an offensive tank / wallbreaker outside of sunlight. I think A- rank is a good spot for Venusaur. It certainly has uses over Tangrowth and the higher Speed tier is really huge to be in front of most wallbreakers in RU, but the lack of Regenerator and Focus Blast hurt it a fair bit.

Houndoom: This probably needs to drop to A- rank. It's not because Houndoom's stats suddenly aren't good enough. But anything giving Diancie next to a free switch-in is going to be a liability at times. Houndoom now has to choose between HP Steel and Sucker Punch on Nasty Plot sets and Manectric's higher natural Speed also hurts Houndoom. While it outspeeds Venusaur, it can hardly set up on or switch into it. Houndoom is still pretty good, but Diancie is an S rank threat imo. And giving free turns to an S rank threat is pretty bad if you ask me.

Tangrowth: I can maybe see a drop to A rank, but I think A+ rank is still good for it. Tangrowth can't really run Giga Drain on Life Orb sets anymore since it now really needs HP Fire to stop Venusaur from having a free reign against it, but that's not really a terrible thing with Regenerator. Leaf Storm blows up Diancie and Manectric is very predictable against Tangrowth. The only thing that should really intrude on Tangrowth's ranking is Venusaur's offensive capabilities giving it competition as a Grass-type offensive tank. I think Tangrowth should still stay in A+ for now, but I can see it maybe dropping to A in the future.

Jolteon: At this point, there's only two reasons to use Jolteon right now (imo) for SubPass and Durant revenge killer. Otherwise, Manectric is often going to be better. Life Orb sets break balance better due to Fire coverage and Choice Scarf sets clean better due to outspeeding Accelgor and all Scarfers. SubPass is still a neat little niche for Jolteon and it doesn't need Scarf to outspeed Durant, Sneasal, Dugtrio, etc. but those are really about the only things it has over Manectric in the current meta. Electric + Fire coverage is just really good and outside of Thunderbolt, Jolteon doesn't have a move that you ask "what can I switch into this move and still be safe if it's Life Orb?" SubPass and a higher Speed tier MIGHT be enough to keep Jolteon B+, but I honestly think it's not enough and it should drop to B rank.

 

[P is For Penguin]

Manectric to A: Its a solid mon, it is amazing at breaking balance cores. The Life orb set is good at just hitting things hard for lots of damage while a scarf set is also useable to beat more offensively based teams. Its ability to do well vs most of the S/A+/A mons is deserving of a solid A Ranking also lightning rod is a cool ability to get some extra power.

Venasaur to A/A+: Man this thing is amazingly good, I think both LO and Black sludge sets are viable. I find it to be a solid mix of tangrowth + amoonguss minus regenerator. It has nice physical and special bulk while still being able to hit hard and also out speeding both growth and amoonguss. Venasaur also has a niche as sun abuser and is crazy strong in sun. All in all its pretty similar to tangrowth with less phys bulk, 10 less SpA, 30 More speed, and Stab sludge bomb.

Houndoom to A-: Houndoom is still good, just not as good. Diancie dropping hurts it immensely, due to the fact it resits both stabs and can OHKO houndoom with ease. Also the fact manectric dropping hurts it a bit because it has almost a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks. Also the rise of poliwrath just makes houndoom sad.

 

[Punchshroom]

Venusaur: Venusaur is in a weird spot. It's basically a cross between Tangrowth and Amoonguss with much greater Speed. Outside of Speed and Special Defense, all of its stats fall in between Tangrowth and Amoonguss for the most part. Venusaur's calling cards are its STAB on Sludge Bomb, much higher Speed tier, and extra Fighting- and Fairy-type resistances over Tangrowth. It's hard to compare it to Amoonguss since I feel Venusaur should only be used as an offensive tank / wallbreaker outside of sunlight. I think A- rank is a good spot for Venusaur. It certainly has uses over Tangrowth and the higher Speed tier is really huge to be in front of most wallbreakers in RU, but the lack of Regenerator and Focus Blast hurt it a fair bit.

I find Venusaur to be very capable of dismantling the same kind of teams that Tangrowth does, except the Speed tier and Poison-typing that grant it both STAB Sludge Bomb (which helps free up moveslots and give it a spammable move) and Toxic immunity let it break teams even more efficiently. Sure, Tangrowth still has its high Defense + Ground resistance (easy switch-in to Mega Steelix) coupled with Regenerator, which grant it better survivability, but then you went on about Tangrowth being unable to afford Giga Drain on its Life Orb set, which not only reduces an advantage it would've had over Venusaur but also highlights Venusaur's presence in the meta. Plus if you rated Diancie so highly, then surely Venusaur being one of the best switch-ins to it in the tier should mean something. Venusaur seems to deserve solid A Rank imo; I may even be ambitious enough to suggest it for A+ alongside Tangrowth.

Houndoom: This probably needs to drop to A- rank. It's not because Houndoom's stats suddenly aren't good enough. But anything giving Diancie next to a free switch-in is going to be a liability at times. Houndoom now has to choose between HP Steel and Sucker Punch on Nasty Plot sets and Manectric's higher natural Speed also hurts Houndoom. While it outspeeds Venusaur, it can hardly set up on or switch into it. Houndoom is still pretty good, but Diancie is an S rank threat imo. And giving free turns to an S rank threat is pretty bad if you ask me.

I probably won't dispute to Houndoom's drop in rank, but come on no Houndoom would run HP Steel over HP Water, which NP Doom still carries for mons like Rhyperior, Mega Camerupt, and even opposing Houndoom.

 

[blaargathon]

Damn! C- or D for Zard? That's kinda harsh considering it only slightly differs from Houndoom. It has better stats overall, an amazing ability in Solar Power 2HKOing basically everything that wants to switch in on it, and thanks to its fantastic coverage it can retaliate and knock out anything that does switch.

EDIT: I know Houndoom has Sucker Punch and Nasty Plot, but Zard doesn't really need to set up when Solar Power Fire Blast under the sun does THAT much.

I've also been toying around with a BellyZard set that can wreak havoc after a Salac berry boost, but I don't know if there's another BD user that does this job better.

Yeah Rocks are a bitch for Zard but, I don't think it belongs in D Rank. I'd say C+ or even B- is fair.