Resource RU Viability Rankings - V2

#1

(Art By Bummer)

Welcome to the official RU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will rank every usable Pokemon into ranks. You're encouraged to civilly post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in RU and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each RU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Keep in mind that this thread is simply a reference list and should not be treated as anything more than that.

S RANK:

Blastoise-mega
Entei
Shaymin

A RANK:

A+:

Gardevoir
Gligar
Mandibuzz
Milotic
Ninetales
Roserade
Tyrantrum

A:

Barbaracle
Bronzong
Noivern
Snorlax
Steelix-Mega
Virizion
Zygarde-10%

A-:

Bewear
Cresselia
Doublade
Meloetta
Registeel
Toxicroak
Yanmega

B RANK:

B+:

Abomasnow-Mega
Ampharos-Mega
Dragalge
Drapion
Feraligatr
Golisopod
Mismagius
Nidoqueen
Porygon2
Rhyperior
Rotom-C
Salazzle
Slowking

B:


Araquanid
Bruxish
Chesnaught
Cloyster
Diancie
Escavalier
Flygon
Forretress
Glalie-Mega
Honchkrow
Linoone
Necrozma
Sigilyph
Swellow
Torkoal
Umbreon
Venusaur

B-:

Aerodactyl
Espeon
Florges
Froslass
Jellicent
Kingdra
Marowak-Alola
Medicham
Pangoro
Pyukumuku
Rotom-H

C RANK:

C+:

Banette-Mega
Gigalith
Goodra
Hoopa
Lycanroc-Dusk
Machamp
Slowbro
Tsareena
Vanilluxe

C:

Decidueye
Delphox
Emboar
Galvantula
Klinklang
Minior
Passimian
Quagsire
Ribombee
Slurpuff
Stoutland
Torterra
Uxie
Whimiscott

C-:

Charizard
Cofagrigus
Comfey
Donphan
Leafeon
Qwilfish
Smeargle
Sneasel
Vikavolt
Xatu

D RANK: (aka blacklist) is for everything that's just worthless

Jolteon

RULES:
  • Don't discuss anything in the blacklist. Ever.
  • Avoid one liners and flesh out your post, but remain concise. This helps further the discussion and gives your post more credibility.
  • Do not derail the thread by asking "why did this move up/down". This is a discussion thread and posts like this don't add to the discussion. If you disagree about X Pokemon's placement, nominate it to move up/down. Similarly, do not derail the thread with other simple questions.
  • Should you want to nominate an unranked Pokemon, it will only be ranked if you have at least 3 replays showing the Pokemon being used successfully vs good teams and it must have a distinguishable niche seen in these replays.
  • If something didn't move up in the prior update, don't keep nominating it again and again unless a significant metagame shift occurs.
  • This thread has nothing to do with tiering. Remain civil when posting in this thread.
 
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King Wynaut

they used to shout my name now they whisper it
is a Tiering Contributor
#2
Long post incoming. I don't usually bother posting in these. A lot of little stuff here could be debated, but I'll focus on big ones for now so this post doesn't become ridiculous.

Rises



A- ->A

If you want to run offensive spikestack, which is surprisingly good rn, this thing is your only option. Furthermore, its an all around excellent pick that a lot of teams have trouble easily switching into now, and spikes allows Glalie to take advantage of defensive switches into Pokemon like milotic when they do exist. Its last slot can basically be customized to fit your team with fang/explosion/eq/taunt making it a really easy Pokemon to splash onto offense and a worthwhile one, deserving of a raise imo.

Drops


S -> A+

Salazzle has lost its prominence in a metagame where scarfers and walls have adapted so that virtually every decent team its chances of sweeping a good player are low. Nevertheless, its attack and speed alone make it a useful offensive tool, which is challenging to take hits from without a nasty plot boost, and thus it only deserves a minor nerf in rankings.



A+ -> A

Kommo-o and Necrozma provided the tier with two new offensive rockers sporting better bulk and speed tiers, though queen's typing and sheer force power still give it a solid niche. Essentially queen deserves to drop because it is no longer hands down the best offensive rocker.


B- -> C

There's really no reason to use this anymore, there are better forms of hazard control even on offense, and the only good spikes stacker is Glalie. I can't really think of much else that would be a counterpoint to this drop.

-> B-

- > B
-> B-
-> A
-> BL2
-> A


:toast:
 
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#3
I think Aerodactyl is way better than the other stuff in C+ and should go to B- / B at least. I'll just post the set I'm referring to so there isn't any confusion.
aerodactyl.png

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Taunt

This Pokemon is absolutely amazing for offensive teams. It offers a check for Salazzle and Swellow, which threaten these teams with their speed and power, by virtue of its typing and can chip them a significant amount with Pursuit, which KOes them after a round or two of rocks. The fast Taunt is great to prevent defoggers from removing your hazards and it stops dangerous threats like Kommo-o from using it as setup fodder. Sigilyph, a prime defogger, takes 80%+ from Pursuit. If you can keep rocks up, its Pursuit will threaten Moltres and Yanmega quite a bit. Pursuit also hits Ghosts like Mismagius and Hoopa, of course. Aerodactyl isn't especially strong, though its Stone Edge does enough to most walls to force them to heal if they want to stay healthy, which puts them in a 50/50 with Taunt, which is especially brutal to them if they've already taken prior damage. You could even run Fire Blast on it if you want something that can revenge kill Durant, though it also has the benefit of 2HKOing Chesnaught after some chip and doing more damage to Doublade and Bewear too. It offers a lot of very valuable role compression, especially to teams that want to keep hazards up. Aerodactyl has obvious flaws though, like being put into a lot of 50/50 situations with really dangerous threats like Feraligatr and Kommo-o, being rocks weak, and not being all that reliable of a Pursuit trapper. However, I think the niche it provides is way too useful to be among the likes of Mega Ampharos and Whimsicott.

For the love of god please don't drop Salazzle, sure you can run something like Scarf HP Ground Roserade or Scarf Gardevoir and think you're safe vs it, but actually switching into Salazzle is another beast entirely. It's so impossibly difficult to handle defensively outside of a very small pool of Pokemon, half of which are extremely out of favor right now. Out of the Pokemon that can actually outspeed this thing, Scarf Flygon, Scarf Tyrantrum, and Aerodactyl are the only ones that come to mind that can actually switch into it, but none bar Aerodactyl can actually punish it well enough since, with hazards being less of a chore to remove than before, Salazzle is even harder to pressure. Salazzle is no less troublesome than it always has been and should definitely not drop.

I think Meloetta could rise to B+. Its Calm Mind Fightinium Z set is still an extremely threatening breaker and I heard its Specs set is pretty good too. For real, what can actually switch into Meloetta reliably lol. The nice thing it has over other breakers is its solid special bulk, which makes it a decentish check to Nidoqueen and Salazzle and special attackers in general, and its Normal typing makes it a solid Ghost check. These defensive traits grant it opportunities to set up or just dish out strong attacks. Its speed tier is a nice plus over breakers like Bewear and Decidueye since it's a lot harder to creep. Basically, it has valuable defensive qualities on top of being very difficult to switch into so I'd like to see it in B+.
 
#4
A- --> B+
A+ --> S

A --> A-

Unranked --> C+



Chesnaught was one of the best spike setters in SM RU, with hazard stack ruling the meta. But now that Defog is so common on mons makes Spikes not as good, Flying and Fire types are now also more common as it is easier to keep rocks off the field, this would in turn make Chesnaught less reliable. Mons like Necrozma, Kommo-o, Sigilyph have also risen in viability, with the first two running Taunt or ohko'ing Chesnaught while Sigi just switches in and Defogs on it, this is why I think Chesnaught drops to B+.


This thing has to be S, it might even be banworthy.

"On more offensive teams defensively checking it is completely out of the question. And by "more offensive" I don't just mean Offense and HO, I mean Balance. Because of Durants great speedtier and sheer power, paired with set up in Hone Claws and the possibility to run two different Z-moves, it just runs through teams. Usually you just have to sack a mon when it comes, so that you can get in your scarfer safely to revenge it (or one of the few mons that actually outspeeds it). And even then, Durant can retreat and come back in later to wreak havoc once again." - eifo

I agree with this from what I've played of offense, the only thing holding Durant back is how Hustle makes his moves 80% accuracy AKA Stone Edge accuracy. This can be fixed by running Hone Claws though, which is probably its most common set. Its sheer unpredictability makes it even harder to predict, it can either run Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Z-move + Hone Claws. Choice Band can plow through Quagsire with X-Scissor (252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) while Choice Scarf is a great revenge killer because of its already high speed tier. Z-move + HC is one of the best sweepers in the tier right now as it can choose its checks with either Z-Superpower or Z-Crunch. This is why I think Durant should go to S. and yes its better than gatr


Zygarde-10% has a very good STAB attack in Thousand Arrows, but now with the tier being very bulky this mon is less usefull than it used to be. Spikes was also a huge factor in its viability as Spikes made its counters take a lot of damage on the switch-in. As the tier is fulled of Grass, Gligars, and Milotics it makes switch-ins to Zygarde-10% very common and as hazard control is more common it can't rely on spikes to damage its checks anymore. DD has always been outclassed by Flygon but now it is also outclassed by DD Kommo-o. These are all reasons why it should drop to A-.


Articuno has carved out a niche on stall teams now that more hazard control is available. Articuno can Defog on many of the more common rockers, Nidoqueen, Registeel, Bronzong while also being able to switch in to the many bulky waters that reside in the tier. The set I use (s/o HypnoEmpire for the set) is Roost/Defog/Freeze Dry/Heal Bell although Haze can be used over Heal Bell to be able to beat Decidueye, Hoopa and soon M-Pidgeot as well. But if you were to run Haze instead of Heal Bell I would use Roar/Whirlwind to rack up extra hazard damage as Articuno will find it hard to Defog on any rockers anyway. This is why I think it should at the very least be on rankings, but more specifically C+.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-667535531
example of cuno putting in work, end up losing but might've won unless double flinch.
 
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teachable

www.readsettlers.org
is a Contributor to Smogon
#5
Nominating Rotom-Frost for C+ rank (although I feel it could be higher).

Rotom-Frost @ Icium Z / Iappa Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Pain Split / Will-o-wisp
- Volt Switch
- Blizzard

Its been my current favorite offensive Defogger, since it can threaten Nido and Glalie to keep hazards off the field. When paired with a Gligar, you can keep most hazards away for a Pokemon like Yanmega (goat mon, the support is worth it when you delete switch ins). Icium-Z is mainly for a big ole Nuke since we're offensive, but also because Blizzard accuracy sucks. Iappa works for more switchins to rocks + general recovery purposes. Ice Plate or something like that works if you have no free Z-Crystal. Pain Split works nicely since you'll be getting chunked by SR if they're up so you're able to actually hurt w/e wants to take it. Wisp or Tbolt also work, this slot is mostly filler.

Not the highest quality replays, but here's some of it putting in some amount of work
 
#6
For those who wanna see the VR changes:

Rises
A+ ---> S
A ---> A+

A ---> A+
A ---> A+
A ---> A+
A- ---> S
A- ---> A
B+ ---> A-
B ---> A
B ---> B+
B ---> B+
C+ ---> B-
C+ ---> B-
C ---> A
C ---> B+
C ---> C+
Unranked ---> A
Unranked ---> C+
Unranked ---> C+
Unranked ---> C
Unranked ---> C
Unranked ---> C-

Drops
S ---> A+
A+ ---> A
A+ ---> A-
A+ ---> A-
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A ---> B+
A ---> B+
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B
A- ---> B
A- ---> B-
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B-
B ---> B-
B ---> C+
B ---> C
B ---> C-
B- ---> C+
B- ---> C
B- ---> C
B- ---> C-
B- ---> Unranked
C+ ---> C
C+ ---> C
C+ ---> D
C+ ---> Unranked
C+ ---> Unranked
C+ ---> Unranked
C ---> C-
C ---> C-
C ---> C-
C ---> Unranked
C- ---> D
C- ---> D
C- ---> D
 

-Tsunami-

Tournament Banned
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a Past WCoP Champion
#7
Nominating Meowstic for C+ Rank.
I'm not exactly sure if C+ would be the ideal rank, but I feel that it would fit there nicely. Meowstic provides all the cheese players in the RU community with a great tool to use in their effort to frustrate their opposition. I made a post about it in the general thread a few days ago, so I might as well just quote what I said there to save some time.


TREBLE CLEFABLE (Meowstic) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Yawn
- Mean Look

Prankster Dual Screens is a very interesting concept. Anyone who has played BW OU back when Thundurus-I was legal knows the value of having a Prankster T-Wave Pokemon an HO team; it prevents you from losing to set-up sweepers, and thus gives you much more leeway when you're playing a game. Meowstic can function similarly to Thundurus-I, being able to set up screens on almost all of the tier. Now, how can a Pokemon whose entire utility is based on Dual Screens function in a metagame where everything and its mother has Defog? Well, this is where the innovative genius of VoD Leader Metabeast SHINES! Yawn is the key to Meowstic's success, as the threat of sleep dissuades many of the opposition's actions. In tandem with Espeon, which can bounce back Defog, this makes Dual Screens HO much more effective than one would initially anticipate. Yawn actually functions better than a move such as Sleep Powder on Meowstic, since the opposing Pokemon will only go to sleep at the end of the second turn after the move is used. This can greatly restrict the opposition's movement, as killing Meowstic at an inopportune time can lead to devastating threats such as Feraligatr and Linoone running roughshod over one's team. After experimenting with Safeguard for a bit and realizing that I never actually click this move, I realized that Mean Look could be a very interesting tech for Meowstic. If clicked at the right time, it could function extraordinarily well with Yawn to set one's team up for an easy sweep; even without Yawn, if the Pokemon currently in place has no way to damage one of your sweepers, then it can lead to an easy set up opportunity as well, especially behind Dual Screens. Keep in mind that Yawn and Mean Look will not work on Dark-types; luckily, there really aren't that many notable ones in the metagame, so that usually is not that big of an issue. Other options I considered for the last move in addition to the aforementioned Safeguard were Trick (to remove Choice Scarfs, etc.), Thunder Wave, Flash, Gravity (for Lovely Kiss), and Heal Bell; I think that Mean Look is generally the best option, though, as it can lead to huge rewards if you're able to predict well. Play smart with this amazing cat and it'll do wonders for your HO team. Don't be discouraged just because of the plethora of Defoggers running around, because Meowstic can still be a very potent force in this metagame when paired with the right teammates.

Here are two replays showcasing its effectiveness:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-671104021
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-669750560

I could have a plethora of other ones, but I didn't bother saving them. Regardless, Meowstic can provide a great deal of utility against a myriad of teams in the metagame. In the first replay, it shuts down any hope of counterplay that my opponent could have possibly had, securing me the win in the process. In the second one, the combination of Meowstic + Linoone is able to drastically change the tide of the game, allowing me to take down slurmz and his pathetic attempt at a counterteam. Yawn + Mean Look is an extremely effective combination that really allows Meowstic's teammates to fully take advantage of the screen support it provides; with no shortage of powerful threats in the tier, it makes Meowstic effective as a support Pokemon. It is without question the best Dual Screener in the tier right now, surpassing Uxie due to the utility Prankster provides alone; Mean Look is simply an added bonus. I feel it is definitely worthy of being ranked, and think that C+ would be a fair spot for it.
 
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#8
Nominating Meowstic for C+ Rank.
I'm not exactly sure if C+ would be the ideal rank, but I feel that it would fit there nicely. Meowstic provides all the cheese players in the RU community with a great tool to use in their effort to frustrate their opposition. I made a post about it in the general thread a few days ago, so I might as well just quote what I said there to save some time.


TREBLE CLEFABLE (Meowstic) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Yawn
- Mean Look

Prankster Dual Screens is a very interesting concept. Anyone who has played BW OU back when Thundurus-I was legal knows the value of having a Prankster T-Wave Pokemon an HO team; it prevents you from losing to set-up sweepers, and thus gives you much more leeway when you're playing a game. Meowstic can function similarly to Thundurus-I, being able to set up screens on almost all of the tier. Now, how can a Pokemon whose entire utility is based on Dual Screens function in a metagame where everything and its mother has Defog? Well, this is where the innovative genius of VoD Leader Metabeast SHINES! Yawn is the key to Meowstic's success, as the threat of sleep dissuades many of the opposition's actions. In tandem with Espeon, which can bounce back Defog, this makes Dual Screens HO much more effective than one would initially anticipate. Yawn actually functions better than a move such as Sleep Powder on Meowstic, since the opposing Pokemon will only go to sleep at the end of the second turn after the move is used. This can greatly restrict the opposition's movement, as killing Meowstic at an inopportune time can lead to devastating threats such as Feraligatr and Linoone running roughshod over one's team. After experimenting with Safeguard for a bit and realizing that I never actually click this move, I realized that Mean Look could be a very interesting tech for Meowstic. If clicked at the right time, it could function extraordinarily well with Yawn to set one's team up for an easy sweep; even without Yawn, if the Pokemon currently in place has no way to damage one of your sweepers, then it can lead to an easy set up opportunity as well, especially behind Dual Screens. Keep in mind that Yawn and Mean Look will not work on Dark-types; luckily, there really aren't that many notable ones in the metagame, so that usually is not that big of an issue. Other options I considered for the last move in addition to the aforementioned Safeguard were Trick (to remove Choice Scarfs, etc.), Thunder Wave, Flash, Gravity (for Lovely Kiss), and Heal Bell; I think that Mean Look is generally the best option, though, as it can lead to huge rewards if you're able to predict well. Play smart with this amazing cat and it'll do wonders for your HO team. Don't be discouraged just because of the plethora of Defoggers running around, because Meowstic can still be a very potent force in this metagame when paired with the right teammates.

Here are two replays showcasing its effectiveness:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-671104021
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-669750560

I could have a plethora of other ones, but I didn't bother saving them. Regardless, Meowstic can provide a great deal of utility against a myriad of teams in the metagame. In the first replay, it shuts down any hope of counterplay that my opponent could have possibly had, securing me the win in the process. In the second one, the combination of Meowstic + Linoone is able to drastically change the tide of the game, allowing me to take down slurmz and his pathetic attempt at a counterteam. Yawn + Mean Look is an extremely effective combination that really allows Meowstic's teammates to fully take advantage of the screen support it provides; with no shortage of powerful threats in the tier, it makes Meowstic effective as a support Pokemon. It is without question the best Dual Screener in the tier right now, surpassing Uxie due to the utility Prankster provides alone; Mean Look is simply an added bonus. I feel it is definitely worthy of being ranked, and think that C+ would be a fair spot for it.
While I do agree Mewostic is a great screen setter (trust me ik) it really only can fit on Screen HO, and I feel C+ is a bit much for it. It also struggles immensely with 4mss, and is extremely passive. I just feel C at most is where it should be imo
 

avocado

queen vados
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#9
: B to B+/A-
Meloetta is really good right now because she goes well with a lot of good Pokemon, mainly Yanmega, Salazzle, Glalie, and really any special attacker that might struggle vs some of the bulkier walls. She excels at breaking cores with amazing coverage of psychic/shadow ball/focus blast which isn't walled by anything in ranks S to A-, and the calm mind z-fight set is really good and in general she's just underrated. impressive stats and special bulk, incredible special attack, and access to calm mind + strong z-move make it a very threatening core/balance breaker and gives opportunities to a lot of sweepers.

I also think Araquanid is really good atm and it's way too annoying to be just B+. It deserves higher but I haven't really used it so I won't comment further but, I can never build teams that aren't weak to it normally, it's a threat that I consciously have to prepare for and it's really hard to switch into

And I do agree with all of over ace's noms except for articuno, no comment on that.
 
#10
Okay, so I've been playing around with this 'mon a good bit recently, and I think it has quite a defined niche that's definitely deserving of a rank.
to C+ (maybe b-? idk it seems pretty effective on paper.)

So, one day I was looking for a Scarf user that could revenge Salazzle, Kommo-o, Durant, and Feraligatr reliably, and I realized Fire + Psychic coverage is rather potent to this end. Originally, I decided to use Scarf Ninetales because its access to Solar Beam could let it beat Gatr, but I realized that locking into Solar Beam sounds like a pretty bad idea, and it can't beat Kommo-o without a lot of chip thanks to Extrasensory being weak as hell. Then I remembered Delphox existed, and I decided to try it out. Sadly, Grass Knot doesn't do all that much to Feraligatr, but Delphox has other useful attributes that make it worth a slot on a team as a scarfer. Here's the set I'm using, for reference:
Delphox @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick / Grass Knot

Delphox has quite a bit going for it as a scarf user. First, it's the only feasible scarfer with more than base 100 Speed, meaning it can actually outpace Jolly Flygon at +1 and revenge it instead of having to risk a trade with it like Shaymin / opposing Flygon. Fire/Psychic dual STAB backed by solid power make it quite threatening for offensive teams and allow it to revenge all but three of the tier's most prominent cleaners and sweepers without locking into weak coverage moves (think HP Fire Shaymin or Extrasensory Roserade), and HP Ice somewhat helps this by popping Zydog and having a relatively decent chance to OHKO Flygon without any prior damage. Here's a wall of calcs, just in case you don't believe me:
252 SpA Delphox Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 258-306 (88.6 - 105.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Psychic vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 408-480 (146.2 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Delphox Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 276-328 (110.8 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swellow: 285-336 (109.1 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 264-312 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I don't think I need to calc Durant. We all know what happens.

It even fares well versus opposing scarfers:
252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 258-306 (98.8 - 117.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 145-172 (52.3 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (note that garde can do literally nothing back)

Its more unfavorable calcs are still rather decent, and pretty obtainable kills after some chip.
252 SpA Delphox Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 205-243 (66.9 - 79.4%)
252 SpA Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 186-220 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 157-186 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

On top of all this, it has access to Trick - while using it requires you drop Grass Knot, it allows Delphox to not be as deadweight vs bulkier teams and cripple something on the opposition, and isn't useless without its Scarf, either - Fire/Psychic/Ice coverage hits a rather wide amount of 'mons, and is only held back by its unboosted power being less than stellar versus bulkier teams.
Overall, this 'mon is pretty cool from my experience. I suck at building and still got it to work, so I recommend anyone else who's better to try it out!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-671203924 - my opponent has basically no switchins to phox, and it gets 4 kos by outspeeding +1 yanmega and comfortably threatening salazzle while still being able to ohko chesnaught
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-671643451 - phox doesn't do much this game, but access to trick lets me cripple snorlax which likely would have won the game if he had eq
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-671141901 - trick again comes in clutch, neutering a threatening +1 honchkrow and leaving it easier to deal with later on, as well as netting me a life orb for my troubles which lets me kill mega amphy, the honchkrow, and dent rhyperior
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-672047201 - this time, i myself have no switchins to phox and have to play a risky game to keep it from nabbing a kill every time it comes in - flygon can't switch in after being hit by fire blast once, as any subsequent ones would 2hko it without a chance to retaliate. (also featuring passimian, another mon i think could use a bit of exploring.)

tl;dr Scarf Delphox revenges basically everything except Feraligatr, has solid offensive presence without having to use weak coverage most of the time, and has access to Trick allowing it to serve a purpose vs bulkier teams as well.

On a different note, I'm supporting Zydog to A-, Chesnaught to B+, Meloetta to B+/A- (cm fight z is still absurdly threatening, and it gets plenty of setup opportunities on most special attackers as well as quite a few common mons threatened out by it.) and Aerodactyl to B-.

e: thanks helias, i forgot about scarf ant (and lazzle as well). i wouldn't really consider heliolisk and the like feasible scarfers, though :v
 
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#11
Delphox has quite a bit going for it as a scarf user. First, it's the only feasible scarfer with more than base 100 Speed, meaning it can actually outpace Jolly Flygon at +1 and revenge it instead of having to risk a trade with it like Shaymin / opposing Flygon.
I feel I should mention that this isn't true, as scarf Durant outspeeds scarf Delphox and ties with scarf Heliolisk, which is admittedly disgustingly bad and I'm only bringing it up for comparison. Granted, scarf Durant is probably its worst set, but I would say it's still viable.

Regardless, Delphox certainly seems like an interesting mon, and I'll come back later with my thoughts on it after I try it out a bit.
 

teachable

www.readsettlers.org
is a Contributor to Smogon
#12
I feel I should mention that this isn't true, as scarf Durant outspeeds scarf Delphox and ties with scarf Heliolisk, which is admittedly disgustingly bad and I'm only bringing it up for comparison. Granted, scarf Durant is probably its worst set, but I would say it's still viable.

Regardless, Delphox certainly seems like an interesting mon, and I'll come back later with my thoughts on it after I try it out a bit.
tbh I'd argue Durant is our best scarfer, but I agree in saying that Scarf is its worst set.

As for Delphox, it seems... usable, but Gardevoir usually accomplishes its job (even as a Scarfer) better. With T-bolt/Hidden Power Fire over either Healing Wish/Trick you can reliable revenge either Gatr/Durant, and you can still do a chunk to whichever you don't have coverage for with a neutral hit (and Fairy/Psychic are typically pretty spammable STAB moves, but I guess the same could be said of Fire/Psychic).
However, reliably revenging flygon is a huge plus with role compression, so I could see myself slotting Delphox onto a team when I've used less-than-stellar scarfers for similar reasons (S/O flamethrower scarf Aero).
Outside of Scarf, Delphox seems like it competes with Gardevoir in some ways (they break similar cores with Specs/Z-Move/LO sets) but also has a slight edge wrt speed which probably matters more as something that isn't just a revenge killer (but also rocks weakness).
Still seems pretty niche though, so:
Agree with C+.
 
#13
Mini rant on Garde
tbh I'd argue Durant is our best scarfer, but I agree in saying that Scarf is its worst set.

As for Delphox, it seems... usable, but Gardevoir usually accomplishes its job (even as a Scarfer) better. With T-bolt/Hidden Power Fire over either Healing Wish/Trick you can reliable revenge either Gatr/Durant
Personally, I am not a big fan of Tbolt on Garde, as Moonblast kills Gatr if any tiny bit of chip damage has been inflicted.
252 SpA Sheer Force Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 229-271 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I would much rather use Trick, HW or even Memento in the 4th slot. As for HP Fire, I think that should be ran on any Garde for Durant. Alternatively, Tbolt could be ran over it, but this requires more chip damage to pick off Ant, than Moonblast needs vs Gatr.
252 SpA Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 170-201 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Delphox to C+
As for Delphox itself, I agree, it should be ranked. I tried it myself in the past. It did what it had to do, revenging DD Gon/Gatr (and Kommo-o, now that it has an actual physical movepool, Ant and Lazzle. Having the fastest scarfer in the tier (bar Ant and Lazzle, neither of which appreciates the strain carrying a scarf puts on their breaking abilities, and as such are not too commonly used as scarfers) was pretty neat. Trick is nice as per usual. Scarf Delphox differentiates itself from Garde in having a different secondary stab, as well as being able to revenge DD Kommo/Gon at +1, which i believe is big enough of a niche to be worthy of being ranked.

Glalie to A
Agree. This mon is in a great place right now. Being the only spiker that beats every single remover, with the most common ice resists, Doub and Milo, being susceptible to getting heavily weakened or 1v1d by Super Fang/Freeze-Dry (depending on which of them you choose as your 4th move) lets it thrive in the current meta.

Chesnaught to B+
Agree. With the rise of new, solid removal such as Defog Sigi, Taunt Chester just does not cut it anymore. It struggles to keep spikes up nearly as effectively as during SM.

Xatu to C
Agree. Xatu is not anywhere near as good anymore with the rise of new, solid removal. It rose mainly because it neutralized Regi and Chester, two of the best and most common hazard setters in the tier at the time. Now that those two have gotten a lot worse, I do not see Xatu being a good mon at all. I would not be against unranking it.

Meowstic to C+
Agree. Screens is a perfectly viable playstyle, and Meowstic is the best setter. C+ might be a bit too high, though. I think C would be more appropriate.

Salazzle to A+
Disagree. Salazzle is just as good as ever. I do not see a reason to drop this mon.

Nidoqueen to A
Disagree. While Kommo-o and Necrozma getting tutor moves and becoming good rockers may have hurt its viability, I believe the current VR already reflect this, by dropping it from S. It's still arguably the best rocks setter in the tier, and has huge offensive presence and a decent amount of defensive utility.

I agree with Articuno to C+, Aerodactyl to B-/B, Meloetta to B+/A-, Durant to S and Zygarde to A-. Rotom-F is whatever to me, I don't really have an opinion on it.
 
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#14
I'm also giving my opinions on all of these let's go

Delphox to C+ Agree
Sure, I've been using it and it did its job very well, I didn't think that I'd more often than not find teams that are really weak to it with their Fire resist being something like Flygon and revenge kills (or at least Tricks) most of the fast threats in the tier. I completely agree with it going to C+.

Araquanid to A- Agree
Yes, nice Webs setter and is annoying af with any of its sets, it's that kind of threat you can't overlook when building a team and with Chester being less common teams without Refresh Milotic tend to never have a switch.

Nidoqueen to A Disagree
Queen is still scary af and still a great Offensive Rocker, I don't see a reason to drop it now.

Chesnaught to B+ Agree
Yes, Rotom-C and Sigilyph exists (with Defog) now which means I can't just make it fast and know I have Spikes almost always anymore.

Xatu to C Agree
Maybe C+ but I agree with it dropping, Regi and Chester are less common and besides U-Turn and Magic Bounce I barely see reasons to use it over Sigilyph which makes a great job.

Meowstic to C not C+ Agree
Screens is annoying af, but I tried it an I agree with Gatorboy, agree with it to C not C+.

Salazzle to A+ Agree
Yes, I don't see Salazzle as meta defining anymore, don't get me wrong, it's still strong af Gigalith got worse and so did Dragalge but I don't think it is more meta defining than Milotic or Nidoqueen, for instance.

Btw I have no opinion about Glalie, haven't used nor faced it enough.
 

Jordy

you should like this post
is a Contributor to Smogon
#15
C- -> C+ (or anywhere higher up to B)
I actually think that Sneasel rn is very slept on, recently i have been getting back into RU and Sneasel is a rly useful Pursuit trapper when used with Pokemon like Curselax and Bewear, which tend to be walled by Ghost-types, completely. Furthermore Sneasel itself can also act as a decent sweeper with Eviolite and Swords Dance, while inferior to its 4atks set, it is by no means bad and unviable.
 
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#16
C- -> C+ (or anywhere higher up to B)
I feel that Sneasel rn is very slept on, recently i have been getting back into RU and Sneasel is a rly useful Pursuit trapper when used with Pokemon like Curselax and Bewear, which tend to be walled by Ghost-types, completely. Furthermore Sneasel itself can also act as a decent sweeper with Eviolite and Swords Dance, while inferior to its 4atks set, it is by no means bad and unviable.
I have to disagree on this one. Sneasel is extremely underwhelming in a meta where M-Lix and Milo are running the tier. Other mons such as Umby and Fairium Cress also beat it reliably. On top of Sneasel being walled by some of the most common defensive mons in the tier, Aero is able to Pursuit trap the exact same mons, while also switching into and trapping Salazzle and Swellow, two of offense's biggest problems. It also faces big competition from M-Glalie as an offensive Ice-type with STAB Ice Shard. Glalie isn't walled nearly as easily as Sneasel, it's the primary spiker in the tier and it has cool techs such as Super Fang. Because of this, I would never ever even consider using AoA Sneasel, be it LO or CB. Surprisingly, though, I do believe it has something to offer as a lure with a different set.

If I had to build with Sneasel, I agree that SD could be a cool idea. However, I do not think that Eviolite would be the best item. As mentioned above, it's easily walled, and thus needs all the power it can get. With Eviolite you're walled by Lix, Milo, Umby, Cress and Bewear, even at +2. To do something about this, you could use either Life Orb or Fightinium Z Focus Punch/Low Kick. Z-Focus Punch OHKOs Lix and kills Milo after a couple of rounds of SR at +2 and OHKOs Bewear unboosted, but comes at the cost of it being a useless move otherwise. Z-Low Kick needs some chip off on Lix and needs Milo heavily weakened before +2 Z kills, but you're graced with an actual, functioning move in the last slot. Keep in mind, though, that generally the few Low Kick targets in the tier get bopped by the Z, thus having a functional move outside of the Z-nuke may not be as necessary as one might think at first glance. Umby obviously drops to the Z-move at +2. Using a Z-move means that Cress takes nothing from +2 Knock, though, which is why Life Orb might be nice. +2 LO Knock kills once you've got about 25% of chip off on Cress. It also OHKOs Bewear and picks off Lix and Milo after a couple of turns of SR. The main drawback of running LO is taking residual damage every time you attack, as well as being completely walled by Umby (unless you flinch).

Finally, do not misunderstand me, I do not wish to oversell SD Sneasel. It's a lot like SD Waterium Drap, in the sense that nothing outside of Quag walls it that easily at +2. However, they also share the same drawbacks. For one, they're hard to set up with it. You have to aggressively boost as your opponent is switching out. If they stay in, you're likely to die because of your bulk, or rather, the lack thereof. This puts you in an awkward position, as secondly, you're also forced to set up if you want to do any damage whatsoever. Unboosted these mons are extremely weak. You're oftentimes going to rely on winning a 50-50 for these mons to ever put in any work at all. Lastly, they're easily revenged due to their lackluster bulk. There's also a big opportunity cost in running these mons, as you're "wasting" your z on them. A Z that could otherwise be abused by something that could make better use of it. This is why LO is likely going to be your item of choice most of the time. However, Sneasel does have a couple of things going for it over Drap. Most importantly, it has a better secondary STAB, and a better speedtier, which means that it's not as easily revenged.

As an aside, SD+Ice Shard could also be interesting, but you would have to give up on Icicle Crash in order to fit it. LO in specific does this well, as it only needs a tiny bit off chip before certain scarfers that try to revenge it are in range, while Fightinium Sneasel needs about 45% of prior damage before it kills Garde/Ttrum (Flygon obviously drops either way). While I would never opt to use SD Drap, having Ice STAB and a much better speedtier, means that SD Sneasel is something actually worth considering.

For all of these reasons, I believe Sneasel is fine where it is.

Z-Focus Punch
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix-Mega: 334-394 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 844-994 (221.5 - 260.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 644-758 (163.4 - 192.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 242-288 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 150-177 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 182-216 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Z-Low Kick
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix-Mega: 268-316 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Bewear: 668-788 (175.3 - 206.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 516-608 (130.9 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 242-288 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 150-177 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 182-216 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Life Orb
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix-Mega: 263-309 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 278-329 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 351-413 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 266-316 (67.5 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 315-374 (70.9 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 195-230 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 237-281 (77.4 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eviolite
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix-Mega: 202-238 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Bewear: 267-315 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 242-288 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 150-177 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 182-216 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Yeah, that's right, get innovated on.
 
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paoisd

Tournament Banned
#17
can someone explain to me why registeel dropped so much compared to sm? also why has sigilyph risen so much?
 
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#18
can someone explain to me why registeel dropped so much compared to sm?
quite a few reasons

1. more physical attackers than special ones, but this has always been the case. however more recently durant has been running z-fight and that just shits on registeel. doublade got more popular, SD Feraligatr got more popular, decidueye sets up all over registeel and dropped relatively recently, etc
2. the special attackers have adapted around pokemon like registeel. meloetta runs cm z-fight, sigilyph always has heat wave, necrozma got heat wave recently and with photon geyser SD became a very viable set (which has earthquake), salazzle and nidoqueen have type advantage, moltres rose in popularity, etc
3. gligar now can run immunity + defog so it doesn't fear toxic from registeel anymore and hard counters it
4. the biggest reason: introduction of mega steelix.

however, simple questions like these are more suited for this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ru-simple-questions-simple-answers.3598019/

While I'm here I wanna say I disagree with Salazzle dropping. it's as good as ever and nothing changed for it imo
 

King Wynaut

they used to shout my name now they whisper it
is a Tiering Contributor
#19
> A Rank

I'm going to bring up this nom again, since it seems there will be a significant amount of time still for the vr to update with the delay in usage stats. I normally wouldn't care to give such an extensive argument regarding the arbitrary ranking of a Pokemon on this list, but I feel Linoone is so severely underanked here that it is warranted. Hopefully given the length and detail of this post, you will at least give the time for a considerate read.

I think the best way to talk about Linoone is by looking at a replay

My opponent is using Welsh Wall's sample team, probably the most seen team on the ladder, which is by no means a bad team. It does have one problem: nearly autolosing to Linoone. The team didn't forget to add a defensive Steel-type in building, but having Doublade, the most common Steel-type pick, is not adequate to check Linoone. The minimum damage Doublade takes from +6 Stomping Tantrum is 70%, meaning as soon as I got up 2 spikes + Stealth Rock or conparable chip damage he autolost (Keep in mind that with a max roll, Doublade dies after a single layer of Spike and Stealth Rock). So to not lose to Linoone my opponent would have to not only manage to stop me from getting up hazards at all cost, but never use Doublade as a switchin to my Mega Glalie or Espeon ever, for fear of taking the chip damage for Linoone. Even if he managed to play perfectly to that, and avoid being swept by Linoone, Linoone has already put in tremendous work. 1st because it would have effectively made my Glalie and Espeon super threats to him, but it also still could have setup, gotten 1 kill, and all but killed Doublade. No matter how you slice it, Linoone was going to put in massive work that game. There was no way he was going to prevent setup either, unless he wanted to never go Nidoqueen, Shaymin, or Doublade.

This is an example of Linoone doing the same thing vs. Balance, where Escavelier still takes only a little less damage than Doublade from Linoone (if its running no speed) and thus I once again am easily able to setup for a Linoone win despite his Steel-type (I'm so confident of this I'm willing to throw away my Glalie for 30% on escav turn one)

If replays from the ladder aren't sufficiently convincing, then maybe some calcs will help to illustrate my points
252 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Linoone: 244-288 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Scarf Shaymin
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Linoone: 226-267 (67.6 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Scarf Gardevoir
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Linoone: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Nidoqueen
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Linoone: 213-252 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Scarf Roserade
252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Linoone: 259-306 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Scarf Durant
160+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Linoone: 266-314 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Doublade
Defensive Mons for which Calcs are not needed

Registeel
Florges
Cresselia
Snorlax
Gligar (Eq doesnt 2HKO, but you do)
p2 (no foul play)
these mons rely on toxic to beat you, which gives you enough turns to reliably net at least 2 kills

That's not an exhaustive list btw, the point is to show that Linoone will almost always get an opportunity to set up.

Another point in general I want to make is that even if Linoone doesn't sweep, if it sets up on a mon, kills it, and then does say 80% to its revenge killer, its still generating enormous value for the team. That's conparable to what the S ranked Feraligatr does. I'm not arguing that Linoone should S rank, given its slightly less useful defensively and generally finds a harder time taking hits, but the point is that Linoone is almost always a reliable threat. (and if we really want to go in on the gatr comparison we could talk about how much harder it is to revenge Linoone..)

Essentially the point is, Linoone is reliable in both being able to setup and always come out ahead in generating valuable leads in kills, even if it doesn't sweep. This, and the fact that it can be such an immediate threat at preview for even well built teams easily justifies a drastic rise to A rank, from the severely inaccurate B-.
 

MrAldo

Bird Enthusiast
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#20
I was about to post other noms but Im already enough with the linoone nonsense with many people putting this shit into the tallest pedestal.

My biggest problem with Linoone is that despite being the most dangerous setup sweeper the tier has on the late-game stages, it is a pokemon that condition how you team build so much where you basically have to consider all the possible conditions for it and basically build a whole battery around it. Now, this isnt necessarily an issue since you can build around pretty much any win condition, but when the teambuilding is pushed that far to support it (no team have convinced me that isnt the case with people using screens and just fitting naturally on super Hyper Offense where you stack a bunch of setup sweepers just to have linoone clean later in the game) is why I dont consider it a pokemon worthy of A rank. It is a win condition that isnt independent of build and far for splashable which is something pokemon like Feraligatr and Kommo-O share.

While it can setup against a good amount of stuff pokemon like Shaymin, Roserade, and Gardevoir wouldnt be inclined to be running scarf all the time (Gardevoir would be the one inclined to be running scarf most of the time and even them, Calm Mind and specs are still possibilities) and why would you even mention p2 when it generally runs foul play... or basically all the time anyways? While it take advantage of many passive walls, that on its own isnt an impressive feat. Hell, even Meloetta can take advantage of pretty much the same things on the list, while excelling at a different matchup entirely the concept is the same (Linoone shouldnt be winning against Balance like that, that Ampharos team on that replay is shitty).

As I mentioned before this Pokemon is really comparable to Meloetta tbh since it excels at a particular matchup, needs some chip to blast through its checks/counters and on paper it is virtually unstoppable and require an adequate gameplan to limit it. The Welsh Wall startup was really shaky tbh, think his gameplay wasnt adequated cause when you play offense vs offense, you really need to take into account the linoone since it can win at any given moment, and I dont think it is good to measure the effectiveness of a mon against a team that literally crumbles to it cause doublade can be so easy to chip down. In the end, the viability rankings arent a reflect of effectiveness alone, some other variables need to be considered in order to raise a mon to even higher ranks. Splashability and such.

However, after all this rambling I do believe Linoone should rise but rising it all the way to A is ludicrous. With the meloetta comparison I believe this pokemon should be B+ at best. It perfectly reflects Linoone on how I see it as a mon, absurdly threatening but really conditioning.

Other noms.

Doublade to A: This mon is pretty good, but not A+ good. While this pokemon can certainly adapt to the metagame really well by running a different move (sacred sword is on its prime right now) is still has a bunch of problems dealing with how other Pokemon can easily overwhelm it or has ways to adapt against it. Milotic being so good atm is certainly a major problem for it, and Pokemon like Linoone getting new forms of just removing it like with Stompting Tantrum or Glalies running super fang, and Toxicroak running darkinium on its main option... a bunch of threads are against it tbh. Still an extremely valuable glue for offensive builds but reliance on staying healthy plus being chip down so easily make it too similar to p2 in my eyes... if you exchange the reliable recovery with the notable offensive presence that doublade has, yes. A+ has bigger behemoths than it atm.

I also believe Meloetta can rise to B+ cause that shit is still really damn good as a wallbreaker, destroying defensive teams back and forth but with obvious defensive shortcomings that can be annoying to patch on the teambuilding phase but there is a great reward at running the risk. Nice speed tier also helps!

And last, Seismitoad can be C+ cause a good amount of offensive teams really appreciate the status sponge and stealth rock user the frog provides, role compression similar to Milotic (with notorious differences in reliability ofc) but having a rock resist that can soak up status and can trade against Nidoqueen is pretty neat imo. UU is probably taking it but it should rise in case that doesnt happen.
 
#21
Snorlax to A

Snorlax might not be what it used to be, but lately Snorlax has been seeing more usage with other sets, making it less predictable. It's Choice band set provides more immediate power and is quite hard to switch into, and its Figy berry recycle gives it more immediate recovery. It's Curse sets are good as always, but its other sets have been used very effectively and make it harder to find out which set Snorlax is using, and how to deal with it. Also, it is quite clearly the best A- rank mon and should be moved up to A, where he fits better and deserves to be.
 
#22
A few other noms I want to talk about (besides Snorlax because I already did):

Golisopod: C- to C/C+??
Please put down your pitchforks people lol. Golisopod still might not be great and many people dislike it for being RU for so long, but i think Golisopod gets a bad reputation unfairly. To start, Golisopd is arguably the best C- rank pokemon, and With the edition of Ultra Sun and Moon, Golisopod got access to 3 new notable move tutor moves. Pain Split, Knock off, and oddly enough drill run. Drill run is nice because it hits steel types like Registeel and Mega Steelix super effectively, preventing them from walling it. Pain split is really cool because it gives it a form of recovery, which can prevent emergency exit activating, and i can see this moves being great on bulkier builds. And Knock off is a really strong coverage move it can run to cripple the opponent and do a lot of damage.

Machamp: Back to B+
For some reason, Machamp got moved down to B because pangoro also got moved down. I don't really like that the VR council does this because they have different roles. Machamp is just as good as Pangoro and can be very scary with it's guts set, especially against threats like Mega Steelix.

Mega Camerupt: C+ to B-/B

Mega Camerupt gets a bad reputation in RU for some reason, and I don't think it's fair. Mega Camerupt is a huge threat on TR and counters a lot of threats like Decidueye, Tsareena, Yanmega, Registeel, Bronzong, and Salazzle. Solid bulk means that it can still take a few hits, which is vital when you are very slow. 145 special attcak with sheer force is ridiculously strong, boosting Fire Blast's power to a whopping 143 BP stab attack and Earth Power to a very impressive 117 BP stab attack. It may have some glaring flaws like a 4x weakness to water and 20 base speed, but TR can fix the speed problem if you want to and the water weakness can be helped by having a switch in. It's very slept on right now and could definitely see a rise imo.

Decidueye: B+ to B

Decidueye is having trouble with Mega Glalie, Honchkrow, and the ever prevelent Feraligatr. (Non-boosted Crunch outspeeds and OHKOes) It has also seen stiff competition from Tsareena, who has a much better movepool, has enough speed to outspeed base 70s, and has better attack, physical bulk, and a better grass stab, power whip. While Decidueye has ghost stab and a nice signature move, Spirit Shackle, it struggles a lot with dark types like Umbreon and Pangoro, While Tsareena has High Jump kick to take care of them. It also can't do much to new threats like Moltres and Yanmega, and just sort of struggles lately in this meta.
 

King Wynaut

they used to shout my name now they whisper it
is a Tiering Contributor
#23
Golisopod: C- to C/C+??
Please put down your pitchforks people lol. Golisopod still might not be great and many people dislike it for being RU for so long, but i think Golisopod gets a bad reputation unfairly. To start, Golisopd is arguably the best C- rank pokemon, and With the edition of Ultra Sun and Moon, Golisopod got access to 3 new notable move tutor moves. Pain Split, Knock off, and oddly enough drill run. Drill run is nice because it hits steel types like Registeel and Mega Steelix super effectively, preventing them from walling it. Pain split is really cool because it gives it a form of recovery, which can prevent emergency exit activating, and i can see this moves being great on bulkier builds. And Knock off is a really strong coverage move it can run to cripple the opponent and do a lot of damage.
I think Golisopod certaintly has some favorable qualities going for it, namely First Impression's ability to annoy offense, but I don't think it should rise, at least until we see a potential Kommo-o rise and other shifts in the meta. Golisopod still suffers from the same complications of its ability and despite the influx of new defogers Stealth Rock remains a prevelant force holding it back and restricting it to niche anti-meta offensive archetypes, meaning it needs a lot of support just to fit. The new tutor moves are cool for it, but it never really had an open moveslot to run an option like Knock Off so I don't see that as hugely beneficial. Miltoic now running fulling physically defensive spreads has also hurt it because Milotic can now 1v1 even LO sets. Lastly, not being able to threaten or have First Impression effectively revenge kill Kommo-o, arguably the most threatening sweeper in the tier currently sans Linoone (which it also cant RKO) is a big liability. (Disagree)

Machamp: Back to B+
For some reason, Machamp got moved down to B because pangoro also got moved down. I don't really like that the VR council does this because they have different roles. Machamp is just as good as Pangoro and can be very scary with it's guts set, especially against threats like Mega Steelix.
Kommo-o adds another fighting type to the tier, which generally is superior to Machamp, making it a more niche pick and thus dropping it. In general, Machamp only has the niche of being really effective against stalls which can't switch into it, making it viable but certaintly not the standard choice for a fighting type. With the increase in options in USM for Machamp's role, I think B is a perfectly justified and accurate rank. The like is probably true for Pangoro, though I've used it too little to feel justified in giving an opinion. (Disagree)

Mega Camerupt: C+ to B-/B

Mega Camerupt gets a bad reputation in RU for some reason, and I don't think it's fair. Mega Camerupt is a huge threat on TR and counters a lot of threats like Decidueye, Tsareena, Yanmega, Registeel, Bronzong, and Salazzle. Solid bulk means that it can still take a few hits, which is vital when you are very slow. 145 special attcak with sheer force is ridiculously strong, boosting Fire Blast's power to a whopping 143 BP stab attack and Earth Power to a very impressive 117 BP stab attack. It may have some glaring flaws like a 4x weakness to water and 20 base speed, but TR can fix the speed problem if you want to and the water weakness can be helped by having a switch in. It's very slept on right now and could definitely see a rise imo.
I could see this, as increasing number of Mega Steelix, Milotic dropping spDef investment, and Yanmega hype could make this thing a more and more useful anti-meta pick, though I still see it as very niche given the oppurtunity cost of fitting it on a team and its relative inability to deal with the offense present in the current metagame. Increasing popularity of Araquanid is also potentially troubling. I think B- wouldn't be crazy, but its also pretty fine where it is atm. (Meh :blobshrug:)

Decidueye: B+ to B

Decidueye is having trouble with Mega Glalie, Honchkrow, and the ever prevelent Feraligatr. (Non-boosted Crunch outspeeds and OHKOes) It has also seen stiff competition from Tsareena, who has a much better movepool, has enough speed to outspeed base 70s, and has better attack, physical bulk, and a better grass stab, power whip. While Decidueye has ghost stab and a nice signature move, Spirit Shackle, it struggles a lot with dark types like Umbreon and Pangoro, While Tsareena has High Jump kick to take care of them. It also can't do much to new threats like Moltres and Yanmega, and just sort of struggles lately in this meta.
I agree, Decidueye is overshadowed by Tsareena as an offensive Grass-type (though they each have very seperate qualities and niches), and Doublade generally works more reliably as a spinblocker. As a setup sweeper, its become relatively underwhelming in a more offensive meta, simply capable of outpacing it, and B perfectly represents its more niche status. (Agree)

And while I'm at it
> B- Rank
I'm not exactly sure where to suggest this go, since it's near mandatory on stall IMO but fits nowhere else. Pyukumuku has essentially eclipsed Quagsire as the premier unaware wall on stall, as Quagsire's advantage of being less passive throughout SM has been undermined by the power creep which simply overwhelms it (a single spike is sufficent to 2HKO Quagsire with Liquidation upon switchin, and a well played Fightinium Durant, or Hydro Pump Cloyster can easily break through it). In exchange for being more passive, Pyukumuku offers a much more reliable switchint to Feraligatr, Cloyster, Durant, Salazzle, Kommo-o and the plethora of other sweepers prevelant throughout the tier.

Here are some replays from despize
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-676255232
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-676237096
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-673125526
 
#24
With the edition of Ultra Sun and Moon, Golisopod got access to 3 new notable move tutor moves. Pain Split, Knock off, and oddly enough drill run. Drill run is nice because it hits steel types like Registeel and Mega Steelix super effectively, preventing them from walling it.

even ignoring that minor point I think you're really overestimating the impact golisopod's new moves have on it. as wynaut mentioned golisopod doesn't really have room to run any of these moves to begin with and aside from knock off I'm not sure it would use any of them if it had the room. on top of that being food for the best mon in the tier kommo-o is a huge problem. all in all I gotta disagree with golisopod rising.
 
#25
Decidueye: B+ to B

Decidueye is having trouble with Mega Glalie, Honchkrow, and the ever prevelent Feraligatr. (Non-boosted Crunch outspeeds and OHKOes) It has also seen stiff competition from Tsareena, who has a much better movepool, has enough speed to outspeed base 70s, and has better attack, physical bulk, and a better grass stab, power whip. While Decidueye has ghost stab and a nice signature move, Spirit Shackle, it struggles a lot with dark types like Umbreon and Pangoro, While Tsareena has High Jump kick to take care of them. It also can't do much to new threats like Moltres and Yanmega, and just sort of struggles lately in this meta.
I agree with this nomination, but for literally none of the reasons you've mentioned.

Defog is mediocre and not worth mentioning. Stall has somewhat adapted to sub SD Decidueye with niche picks that serve other purposes like Moltres and Articuno. It sets up on less than ever, and it's less dangerous than ever at the same time. I think it should be ranked alongside or below Hoopa, because they're often interchangable when slotted on a team, except Hoopa has more than one good set. Balance is also often arguably weaker to Hoopa, who also has better set diversity, hits harder off the bat, and does similarly well or better versus a lot of current stall builds, especially as many are missing Chesnaught and Snorlax.

Hoopa has it's own flaws, and I think they should be ranked alongside each other.
 

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