Resource RU Viability Rankings - V3

[phantom]

Slowbro should definitely move up, probably to A- even. It’s one of the best bulky waters atm given how much more flexible it is and how it doesn’t give as many free turns as Milotic and Mantine. It checks a lot of important physical attackers like Metagross/Zygarde and can pivot into the rest pretty nicely. What’s good about Slowbro is that because of regenerator it doesn’t have to spend nearly as much time clicking slack off and can instead take advantage of its great coverage to actually do damage unlike other passive bulky waters.

Florges should move up also. It’s the single most splashable Blastoise counter in the tier and a surprisingly good wish passer on balance. The speed tier is nice also since you can EV it to outspeed machamp and other slow fighters, which further expands the pool of mons it’s capable of checking. B+ is probably a good spot for it. I wouldn’t go much higher since it forfeits too many turns to mons like Roserade/Ninetales/literally any Steel, but it’s hard to deny the utility it provides and the unique cluster of mons only it can check.

Would consider bumping Milotic down to A-. Milotic is incapable of checking many of the top threats in the tier barring Blastoise, which it needs to devote some sdef investment to in order to avoid losing to a single dark pulse flinch, and with the tier being more favorable towards physical hard hitters like machamp and metagross, not having that full physical bulk investment makes it much less desirable than other bulky waters, while being forced to click recover more often makes it much easier to pressure and get free turns off of. In addition, while I think Milotic excels in 1v1 matchups against passive mons, being able to check as many threats as possible is a bit more important atm, which is one of the reasons why its viability is trending downwards imo.

Gardevoir should probably move down too. While its flagship set is still effective, it doesn’t have those same strong matchups as it used to given how much easier it is for offense to fit mons capable of checking it. I’d also argue that there are scarfers like salazzle and noivern (as much as i hate that set) that have become more favorable on certain builds due to their ability to rk speed boosting sweepers gard can’t touch. Other sets gard can use are just so-so given its speed tier, so I don’t feel it should sit as high as it is atm.

Metagross should go to A+. It’s one of the most versatile mons in the tier and is super easy to fit. You can use it to set rocks, punch holes with band, sweep etc. It’s capable of excelling at nearly any role you assign it to and has few consistent counters bar Slowbro/Mandibuzz, which can still lose if you pack the right coverage/move. Nothing else sitting in A is as consistent as Metagross or as easy to fit imo.

 

[MrAldo]

Yeh, as much as I hate Slowbro that physical bulk and fighting resistance is extremely handy in this metagame. Regenerator is a blessing, allowing you to pivot into stuff without forfeiting momentum and its offensive presence is actually pretty decent despite being a defensive mon. 100 SpA is nothing to underestimate, and pretty nice coverage options can allow it to cover many targets if needed. Pretty good mon that deserve a pretty generous rise. Same as florges, countering Mega Toise is a pretty big deal for many balances especially with Water types like Slowbro and Grass types like Tangela gaining some nice traction. Slowbro to A- and Florges to B+ sounds good to me

And Id rank that Metagross at A+ as well just cause that rank looking a bit too green there. But overall the general consistency of the mon and it being a generally good offensive glue makes it a top pick for many type of teams. Is no Doublade, but the moment you dont treat a Doublade it starts pulling off its weight with the roles he can cover.

Necrozma is cool, I think the value of an offensive stealth rock that can either annoy or just disrupt most option of hazard control by itself is very notable. There is Mandibuzz but Toxic or Power Gem can put the pressure on it, and Z Stealth rock with calm mind or not can put immediate pressure on Toise and most of the options left for Hazard Control. Prism Armor is also a very clutch ability that can come really handy in taking some attacks, and many other sets are rather unexplored but focusing on the main set we know which is the rocker one it has some really good merits to rise a rank in this metagame. B+ sounds like a very fair spot to me.

Cresselia is w/e. Leave it at B. Good defensive sponge on a metagame where fighting types go in as heck but it is way too passive and exploitable, some stuff like Z Toxicroak blow it away, and sometimes it ends up needing more moves that you need like choosing between Moonblast or Ice Beam, and a status, and very limited recovery. It is ok but B+ is ranked with more effective stuff than it, Slowbro just feels like a better Cress at many points despite the notable differences.

Donphan to B- is a very fair nom too. Elephant is good, role compression can be very important and many points and Donphan can offer that to teams with rocks + spin if really needed, fantastic rock resist that can pack a punch and Knock Off + Earthquake is surprisingly a very sufficient dual combo on its own. Many surprise moves it can run to lure checks like Head Smash and Gunk Shot are rather fascinating too. From running joke to "joke with a niche" but niche but surprisingly effective mon, time to put some more respect to the elephant. It really deserves it, especially without Gligar out of the equation. A hazard remover which resists rock is some pretty notable niche tbh. To B- seems very fair.

 

[War Incarnate]

I like the state of the VR here, roman! But today I wanted to give my opinion on a select few discussion points before moving on to some smaller noms. Oh, and also, seeing as I haven't made a nom of my own here for a while, I'm going to do that today.
So you ready?

Let's do this!

to A-: Definitely
This has to be one of, if not, the best bulky water we have in Rarely,Used. Its immense physical defense allows it to handle some of the most common physical attackers, such as ZyDog, Life Orb Toxicroak, and Metagross, all of which have picked up in usage recently. Its special attack stat, while not that great, allows for some offensive play so it's not completely passive. The main selling point is not its great defense or special attack, but access to Regenerator. What that basically means is that you don't have to click Slack Off when you're in a pinch and allows it to play with some of its coverage to actually dish out damage, unlike Milotic or Mantine.

to B+: Disagree
Even with its great special bulk allowing to survive hits from the extremely common Roserade, its low physical defense means threats such as Metagross (who has picked up in usage) can utilize their coverage to heavily dent, if not, OHKO Florges. Registeel picking up in usage hasn't helped in any way. Its high mixed bulk means that Florges isn't doing anything while Registeel can cripple with Toxic or Thunder Wave, set up entry hazards, or KO with Earthquake or Iron Head. Metagross was already really common since the very start, and its wide array of physical moves can blow right through Florges without much difficulty. Physical attackers such as Feraligatr and Machamp have became increasingly common here, which doesn't help considering they pack strong neutral or super effective coverage. Machamp packs Bullet Punch, which is also a priority move to make up for its crummy speed tier. Feraligatr doesn't pack anything particularly threatening, but its strong neutral coverage can heavily dent Florges. Even when Stakataka got banned, Florges still can't handle a physically-biased meta very well.
Now for some smaller noms that I wanted to give my opinion on. Note that again, I am going to select ones that have stood out to me.

to A-: YES
Milotic just can't handle the meta that well. It fails to check some of the top threats barring Mega Blastoise but even then it's going to need some SpDef investment in order to not die to a Dark Pulse flinch. The meta here has really shifted towards a more physically oriented playstyle, favoring strong physical attackers such as Machamp and Metagross more and more as we speak. Its poor physical bulk makes it less favorable over other bulky waters such as Slowbro and Seismitoad. Seismitoad, while its bulk and speed aren't that great, can dish out damage way better than you would with Milotic. Slowbro in particular is a better choice than Milotic because while indeed its special defense sucks, it can handle a physically-oriented meta much better and has access to Regenerator so it doesn't let in as many free turns as Milotic. You're pretty much forced to play passively due to not having Regenerator, while with Seismitoad and Slowbro, you can play more offensively and not let in so much for free. While it's good against more passive mons, being able to check some of the top threats here is WAY more important. In fact, it's still quite comparable to a lot of the A and A- rank mons, so I'd consider dropping it to B+.

to A+: Definitely! Who wouldn't say yes?
I've defended it in the past, and I will support a rise for the 4-legged superweapon. Being the best offensive gluemon we have here in addition to how consistent and versatile it is makes this a top pick for many RU teams. It can cover so many different roles successfully thanks to its great attack and defense stats alike. While its speed isn't the best, its versatile movepool includes Agility and Rock Polish so this isn't too much of a problem. With the meta becoming more physically-biased, its great physical defense allows it to sponge up a lot of hits and retaliate back with a brutally powerful STAB Meteor Mash or a non-STAB Earthquake. Even if its typing gives it some devastating weaknesses, this mon is one where the positives outweigh the negatives.
Now for some noms of my own:

to B/B-:
Slowking struggles to keep up with a physically-oriented meta. In theory, it's essentially a worse Slowbro in every aspect. While it has Regenerator, it can't tank physical hits very well, especially from the likes of ZyDog, Metagross, and Life Orb Toxicroak, all of which have become increasingly common as we speak. It fails to really check much outside of Mega Blastoise, but even then it's going to need SpDef investment as to not die to a Dark Pulse flinch. At the end of the day, you're much better off using Slowbro, who not only has access to Regenerator but can handle a physically-biased meta better.

to C-:
This mon really struggles to fit itself a home in RarelyUsed as of now. The meta is shifting into a physically-biased one, and it can't keep up due to its fraility. None of its abilities barring Compound Eyes are really useful and even then you're much better off using electric-types such as Mega Ampharos and Raikou, both of which have more useful abilities, and while Raikou also has problems handling an offensive meta, its better special attack stat means it doesn't have to rely on high-power moves as much. Mega Ampharos has a better typing both offensively and defensively, which combined with its good bulk can handle a physically-biased meta better. As a Sticky Web setter, just use Araquanid or Ribombee. While Ribombee indeed has problems with a more offensively-oriented meta, its better speed tier and better typing offensively and abilities that actually do something. And Araquanid has better bulk despite its passivity and a more useful ability in Water Bubble.
Other noms that I support (Don't have much to say about them):

to B+

to B+

to B+

to A-

to B-

to B-

 

[Katy]

Slowbro to B+

I think Slowbro is really good right now, with the fighting spam the tier offers right now, it can check them decently well, also Scald has a chance to burn all of them and lower their attack stats. When we're at it, Slowbro offers useful offensive moves in Scald, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Psychic and Psyshock but also having access to moves like Thunder-Wave / Toxic is nice to cripple down the opposing team as well.

Florges to B+

Agree here too, Florges simply is an amazing mon, in my opinion the best cleric in the tier, having also a good typing in fairy makes it so it is able to check fighting and dark types really well. The good bulk and the access to Synthesis allows it to check Mega-Blastoise well too.

Seismitoad to B+

I feel like Seismitoad is in a very awkward place right now. Grass types and pokemon with grass type coverage are really huge right now and it isnt able to come in as much as it wants, since it has no option besides Leftovers to gain health recovery. I think B+ is a better placing for it.


Other discussion points I agree on:

Donphan to B-
Tangela to C-
Flygon to B+

 

[Electrolyte]

There are a couple of major metagame trends that I think should be brought up for this discussion:
-

Increase in viability of offensive Grass-types as offensive checks to Zyg-10 and Stoise

-

Increase in viability of Fighting-types as wallbreakers to clear the way for fast special cannons

-

Meta shift from balance to slightly more offensive, meaning tanks have become much more valuable (increase in viability of Metagross, AV Machamp, and Snorlax, and to a lesser degree Pokemon like Bewear, Dragalge, and Goodra), and walls are valued not just by what they can check but also the degree to which they can avoid being passive and setup bait.

These are the major drivers for most of the VR shifts I'm going to be mentioning in this post.

Necrozma to B+

Necrozma has the stats, movepool, and ability to excel in 1-on-1 situations, which really comes in handy given the offensive nature of the current meta and its ability to set Stealth Rock. It's one of the most offensively reliable rockers because it beats removers, and it's a fantastic lead because it beats other rockers. Its less common, purely offensive sets also deserve a lot of merit: CM + 3 attacks offense is quite a formidable wallbreaker that can beat certain typical checks and is fairly anti-meta right now (I'm digging Dark Pulse to take advantage of the uptick in Psychic walls), especially against those expecting rocks, and Z CM + 2 attacks + Morning Sun / Z SD are great for dismantling bulkier teams and breaking balance defensive cores. Finally, it blanket checks most Fighting-types very reliably and is a great tank killer, which is an important and notable niche in the current meta that only a few other Pokemon (mainly Blastoise) can also claim.

Donphan to B-

I think MrAldo's point about role compression justifies this well, but in more specific terms, it's a decently reliable spinner in a meta with few of them, and it blanket checks a wide range of physical attackers while also being deceptively powerful (like Knock Off 2HKOes Bronzong) and bringing a powerful movepool with a lot of utility attacks. Ice Shard is also juicy as a priority move, and makes it less susceptible to Grass-types. It's very prone to being worn down though, unfortunately.

Gardevoir to A-

Poor sis, Scarf is really its only good set, and it's not all too difficult to play around. Its effectiveness as a revenge killer has been diminished over time thanks to Steel-types and special tanks in general, and even then is eclipsed by its susceptibility to being punished afterwards. Psychic / Fairy is not particularly the greatest offensive type combo right now either, and Garde doesn't benefit as much from its movepool as much as more flexible, non-Choice attackers do.

Florges to B+

I'm definitely on board with this, it's definitely one of the most reliable special sponges bar Registeel that RU has to offer thanks to the fact that it can't be easily mowed over by Fighting-types. It's also one of the most reliable Defoggers right now. It's a bit of a momentum drain when facing certain Pokemon that can take advantage of it (offensive Steels, Fire and Poison wallbreakers), but performs well in conjunction with partners that can cover these weaknesses, like Slowbro.

And finally, a personal nomination:

Venusaur to B-

I think sun as an archetype is being slept on a bit. Ninetales is a fantastic and very potent wallbreaker right now; Fire offense is very good and Solarbeam rounds it off very well. Venusaur is also very effective as a cleaner when supported correctly. It completely outspeeds everything (bar Scarf Noivern but Hurricane has 50% acc in sun) and has the flexibility to both wallbreak and sweep. As a wallbreaker on full sun with Solarbeam / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Fire, it OHKOes every Pokemon in A- and up besides Snorlax and Rgisteel after a Growth, which isn't hard to pull off, and noticeably dismantles common defensive cores that rely on Pokemon like Registeel, Florges, and Slowbro. As a sweeper on partial sun (the better framework imo) with Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Fire, it also works very well and functions similarly to Roserade in terms of power, but also finds quite a few boosting opportunities to allow it to truly mow through the offensive meta. We all know Grass is really good, and we also know that Poison-types with boosting moves (Salazzle, Croak) are good. In terms of metagame trends, Venusaur has benefited immensely from Grass-, Fighting-, and Steel-types being common, and I think it deserves more recognition.

Finally, a summary + things I agree with, but don't have anything to add for:

Necrozma to B+

Donphan to B-

Gardevoir to A-

Florges to B+

Venusaur to B-

Slowbro to A-

Seismitoad to B+

Milotic to A-

Metagross to A+

 

[Nat]

hey what is up most loved ru mind here with a few thoughts for the esteemed vr council. Gonna just cover drops in this since that seems fun.

to D. This thing is the only reason I wanted to make this post. There is no way this deserves B-. It's been utterly unviable for the greater part of a year now. Nobody will use this as a grass type over the multitude of good grasses we have. Nobody will use this as an elec over the few better elecs we have. It's an inferior remover to mandibuzz/tsareena/mantine because it lacks consistent health replenishment. It loses to every rocker except toad, and gets laughed at as roserade throws up a spike. Iapapa Berry is cool for a short time but this mon is very easy to wittle over time with a bulkier team, and vs more offensive teams it rarely gets the opportunity to even eat its iapapa before dropping. It's relatively pitiful offensively compared to most of the meta. I truthfully haven't seen it on a serious competitive team in a very long time. Lix being banned, gligar being banned, doublade being banned, and milotic falling out of favor certainly haven't helped it. This is especially true for lix being banned, as vs lix is where it shined the most if lix didn't opt for toxic/ice fang. It has absolutely no place in this meta, imo, and is very likely the worst mon on this VR.

to A- or lower. The age of people being caught off guard or unprepared for barbaracle has well passed. It's still a super viable mon but I feel its peak has ended, largely because it's been around long enough to where it's never surprising. Protect can be surprising if anything, but in this more offensive meta I feel it has much less opportunity to setup save for someone throwing with a choiced move. Metagross handles it decently well too minus water-z variants, a set that probably deserves more exploration.

to C or lower. I just haven't seen dedicated sun be good for awhile, with the exclusion of col49 doing col49 things and making anything work. It never really seemed great to me since 2018 but as time has worn on it's apparent it's worse than just about everything in the c+ ranks.

to B. Mantine got a little worse when the big 3 of gligar/lix/doublade left I feel. It defo is still viable, I just feel like its lost a step esp considering the inability to pair it w/ lix, arguably its best partner. It can be annoyed very easily by status, though still gets the job done vs some of our more annoying threats like stoise/tales.

to A-. It hasn't at all been a factor this SPL. As I said when we lost gligar/doublade/lix, it's fell to the wayside a tad. Various refresh variants can still be annoying but with the inclusion of raikou, the rerise of machamp usage, more goodra love, more amphy/aboma love, and a plethora of other threatening mons, it isn't the ridiculous wall it used to be.

to B. I don't really get why lax has hung around in the A's for so long, as it hasn't been great for a very long time. Band is the set I've seen used rarely (xd) by pohjis, but other than that I can't recall a competitively viable team utilizing lax since maybe snake 2. p much all of our top threats give it trouble outside of stuff like noiv/tales/lazzle. Curse rest just hasn't seemed viable for a very long time, since a decent number of our mons have no issue breaking through lax while it's resting. Iapapa recycle is a terrible set and doesn't deserve the time of day.

 

[Katy]

to B.

Agree with Snorlax dropping. Not only the sets suffer in viability but also the metagame is against Snorlax right now. Fighting spam is huge right now and all fighting types are faster than Snorlax and can easily revenge kill it or just force it out and Setup on that turn.

to A-

Agree. Mega-Blastoise is a better tanky water than Milotic and grass types are huge in the current metagame. It is (as Seismitoad) in an awkward position in the metagame.

to B

Rarely seen on ladder builds also tournament builds, Mantine isn't a huge factor in RU right now. Bulky Defog sets still find their way on some teams but there is no reason to use that over other Defoggers, which have more utility, are faster and having access to a better typing, Mega Ampharaos, Raikou and such just dent through it.


My own Nom:
to B+

Araquanid saw recently some successful tournament usage (SPL) and I think Water Bubble is a nice ability helping it out to tank fire attacks better + being able to have a boosted Water STAB in Liquidation, which dents holes into teams and can easily weaken every pkmn in the RU tier heavily. Sticky Web + Mirror Coat / Mirror Coat is such a great combination of oves, with a good bulk on its SpDef.

 

[roman]

Your argument as to why Rotom-C should drop shows ABSOLUTELY no reasoning as to why this thing is worthy of dropping 4 ranks. "It's been utterly unviable for the greater part of a year now" is 100% bullcrap. If anything, it has gotten better. With Mega Blastoise here to do some tanking and spinning, it's able to OHKO it thanks to being faster than it. Yes sure, it lacks consistent health replenishment - however, the same can be said for Tsareena to an extent - Synthesis gets messed up by things like Gigalith and Mega Abomasnow. Mandibuzz can't handle the influx of fighting spam very well; neither can it handle Metagross, which is one of the better entry hazard setters, and most importantly, it can't beat many entry hazard removers due to its passivity. Mantine simply can't keep up anymore; if anything, Rotom-C is able to beat it 1v1. Mantine's poor physical bulk makes it vulnerable to Metagross and Goodra's Thunder Punch. Rotom-C is Rotom-C; it lacks recovery, but handles the influx of fighting-types, Metagross, and physical hard-hitters much better. Even if its god-awful HP lets it down, it's always there to hit some of the top meta trends. It's appreciated Milotic falling out of favor and Slowbro surging back in usage. Both of them utterly die to Rotom-C's Leaf Storm. Its modest speed tier allows it to outspeed some common meta staples, namely Mega Blastoise. It's appreciated Mega Lix getting banned as well as Gligar and Doublade, particularly Gligar since that evil bat-scorpion gave it a shit ton of competition as a Defogger. Mega Lix resists everything Rotom-C tries to throw at it, and Doublade doesn't even get 2HKO'ed by anything Rotom-C tries to throw at it.
So yeah, don't drop Rotom-C, however, it shouldn't rise either, which is why I think B- is fine.

I'm going to have to disagree with this one. It struggles to find itself a home, especially in a meta where physical hard-hitters are on everyone's threatlist. For example, Machamp's Knock Off and Close Combat are both a 2HKO on Araquanid, and its boosted Facade can score a OHKO on Araquanid. Its poor power level outside of STAB means that it's not doing anything to more bulky pokemon, such as Metagross and Mega Blastoise. Its speed tier is also really bad, so it usually has to take a hit before retaliating back. Its reliance on status to do damage leaves it unable to do much versus Steel-Types such as Registeel and Metagross, with the former walling it absolutely, while the latter can hit it with Thunder Punch. Generally, it needs a lot of support and this is why I think the B ranks are fine.

some of the stuff in your post is just wrong, before you post you should check to make sure you facts and fully flesh out your thoughts to make your argument cohesive and convincing

* modest rotom-c is not faster than timid (most common rn) blastoise
* bringing tsareena's recovery down to rotom-c's level is just inaccurate: rotom-c has literally no recovery aside from leftovers / iapapa berry and weather is scarce enough for synthesis to be more than viable as a recovery move as seen on other pokemon such as shaymin / roserade / virizion etc. tsareena also has plenty of opportunities to heal given the amount of switches it forces
* mandibuzz does indeed handle non toxic metagross, outlandish sets like z thunder punch still fold to standard pdef mandi
* rotom-c does not reliably beat fighting-types- any machamp set beats you, toxicroak beats (your) rotom-c set, medicham beats you, sawk beats you, virizion beats you and so does everything else if you drop will-o-wisp. toxic metagross beats rotom-c and those lacking toxic still keep rocks up against it. also not sure what hard hitters you're throwing rotom-c into, many common physical attackers such as zygarde and tyrantrum 2hko it easily
* how does milotic, a pokemon rotom-c beats, falling out of favor help rotom-c?
* mega steelix (no toxic) was the only steel-type stealth rock user that rotom-c actually did well vs - it leaving only made rotom-c worse as did doublade (rotom crippled it w/ wisp + volt), gligar (burned gligar is set up bait for anything in the tier).
* mega steelix does not resist leaf storm
* machamp's matchup vs araquanid has nothing to do w/ araquanid's viability
* araquanid beats registeel 1v1

==

metagross a -> a+

don't need to say much: very versatile with a ton of different effective sets (shuca rocks, custap explosion rocks, LO / z-move agility, choice scarf, choice band etc) that can fit onto almost any build

goodra b+ -> a-

very easy to fit on teams as a scarfer that acts as a great glue for bulky offense, switching in and checking pokemon like ninetales / shaymin / raikou that are otherwise a headache to switch into. edit: specs is also a massive headache for basically any offense / bo team to deal with and some balances struggle to find a reliable switch in to it as well

also on board with nat's opinion's on rotom-c / mantine / snorlax, but somewhere in c is adequate for rotom-c

 

[Windsong]

Rotom-C to C- and blacklisted from further discussion. (dw Nat, I have a line of justification for you)

Almost unviable mon.

Offensive Grasses--Rose, Vizi, Shay--are the most prominent threats in the meta rn. Yes, including Dog and Stoise. You can't stack any of them with Rotom-C without compounding vulnerabilities, and Rotom-C doesn't add enough to the offensive presence you'd need if you wanted to go double grasses and try to bust through checks. Bulky Defog sets are terrible--you outright lose to Zong and Regi, and the few things that you scare out with Leaf Storm just poison you then eventually get rocks up over long games. You also let in opposing offensive grasses for free since bulky Rotom-C can't touch them.

Modest Rotom-C shouldn't even be in this conversation since it can't switch in on Stoise, but it's worth noting that offensive sets in general are pretty bad since they offer way less than Rose/Vizi in terms of breaking power and don't actually have the ability to clean in endgame situations like Shay. Giving it a slight push above Nat's hard D since specs is kind of viable and can toss bad teams and sorta force mind games, but it's almost always a liability / forces its user into poor team construction.

Random stuff now that this is done:

Donphan to B. It checks Dog well, offensive sets can run Gunk/Knock and lure grasses and Bronzong, and it having both spin + rocks available makes it a really cool utility mon. Very easy structurally to fit into balance builds.

Arcanine to B/B+. This thing has no business at all in the same rank as wildly splashable stuff like Bronzong, Mandi, Toed, etc. Pure fire is iffy typing in general, offensive sets can't switch in anywhere and wreck themselves on recoil damage, bulky sets don't actually counter the offensive grasses well since they get blown out by Z-Fight/Poisons and don't even handle Metagross well due to Clear Body. Offensive Z-Elec sets are sorta cool but really easily read and pivoted around.

Marowak-Alola to B/B+. Super strong, cool STABs, has utility as a rocker that scares away other rockers, and offers really useful typing for checking stuff like Rose and ZHB Vizi. It also offers a ton of counterplay against spinners/foggers since Shadow Bone is so ridiculously strong. Also dismantles stall pretty handily.

Happy to expand on any of those three if necessary. There are a ton of minor things (read: a huge chunk of the B-/B ranks) that should be fixed at some point, but the three I mentioned specifically are the most egregiously misplaced mons that haven't been fully discussed.

 

[eifo]

Ok, so I have my very own tier list I made (I secretly poke fingers at all of you in the dark), but I'm too lazy to post all the noms since it would take forever, so here's one mon that truly deserves the change. Here ya go cyanize n.n

Umbreon B -> C-/D

This mon is complete and utter garbage. I was almost tempted to straight up nom it for D, as I honestly see no reason to ever use it - unless you absolutely want to no matter what.
It doesn't wall anything relevant bar Swellow (which U-Turns on it for free into a fighting mon who then claims a kill due to our lack of solid fight resists in the tier, Nidoqueen (which simply sets up rocks in its face or 1v1s it if Taunt) and Goodra (unless it is CB, which obviously breaks Umby with ease, albeit at the cost of its own life due to Outrage lock). As a wish passer it is outclassed by Florg and Audino on balance or even Aromatisse on stall. For clarification, Tisse is used exclusively for stallbreakers, i.e Noivern, Manidbuzz (and Gligar rip).
There is only one argument for using Umby over Florg: it walls Sludge Queen - a big threat to Cressless balances - while Florg does not. Well, thing is, so does Audino. However, Audino also gets a much greater utility move in Knock Off, which severely cripples the longevity of annoyances such as Registeel, Bronzong and Milotic to name a few. Additionally, it also has an incredibly broken ability in Regen, which lets it pass wishes with much more ease. It's sort of like a poor man's Mola in several ways.
Speaking of fat waters, even Vaporeon outclasses Umbreon as a wish passer. Vap walls all the same mons (barring Swellow, but you should be using a fat steel on your balance anyway), while simultaneously having a way better offensive presence bc of its solid Sp Atk + access to Scald and Ice Beam. This lets it beat mons like Zyg and the aforementioned Vern, while severely crippling Rose, all of which are a pain in the ass for fatter builds to deal with. Even the old relic of SM RU known as fast Taunt Umby has been outclassed by Mandi for a year now.
So what niche is left for Umby? Uh, design I guess? No really, you tell me why anyone would use it. Bing a wish passer that checks Venu under sun is all I can possibly think of.

Oh btw Linoone is dumb good. Legit I wouldn't even blink if it was in A- lmao. Give that boi a raise to B at the very least. Fuck screens, we should ban that shit js.

 

[UltraBallz]

fwiw I think Umbreon does have a niche still on stall and while I think a drop is fine C-/D seems harsh to me. The stall I used last week in SPL actually had an audino over umb originally because regen helps a lot with volt switches from raikou/ampharos/etc but I found that using audino meant I lost on the spot to cm espeon and stored power necrozma from preview (although I know this partular set is some ladder trash that you don’t really see elsewhere). This in addition to Swellow as you mentioned and a more solid specs Goodra answer were reason enough for it to be a better fit than Audino on that particular build

 

[eifo]

fwiw I think Umbreon does have a niche still on stall and while I think a drop is fine C-/D seems harsh to me. The stall I used last week in SPL actually had an audino over umb originally because regen helps a lot with volt switches from raikou/ampharos/etc but I found that using audino meant I lost on the spot to cm espeon and stored power necrozma from preview (although I know this partular set is some ladder trash that you don’t really see elsewhere). This in addition to Swellow as you mentioned and a more solid specs Goodra answer were reason enough for it to be a better fit than Audino on that particular build

Between Regi, Cress, Aud, Cuno etc I never really found myself struggling with Specs Goodra. Your team even had several of these, so I'm kinda confused as to how it was a problem to you. I'm assuming it is bc you chose to use a worse defensive steel for more hazard control, and thus felt your fairy/dragon/normal resist wasn't as good, but between Cuno, Cress and an Aud I don't really see how this would be a problem at all, considering hazards are never going up. And if push comes to shove, Aud can mega and thus wall it with ease. Losing Regen is lame af tho.
Stored Power mons are covered by CM Cress and Mandi anyway, so you'd only use it on a stall build where you feature neither, which is rare to say the least. You even had the former on your team, so I'm confused as to why you felt Espy was troublesome. Mono attacking Rest/RP/CM/SP Necro breaks it tho, so I guess in the extremely unlikely event that you faced this, Umby does cover that.
In the end, covering for this specific set, which sees very little usage, does not equate to the pros of Aud at all. So while I get why you may want to opt for it in this extremely specific scenario, it is firstly so rare that idt it deserves to be any higher than C-. Secondly, it may not even be the best option, as you're sacrificing your trick immune Regenwisher with Knock, which gives you a better match up vs lots of other mons instead.
Looking at the VR, the mons in C are all in a better place than Umby, barring Xatu and Quag, which I would honestly rather see join Umby in C-. Admittedly, Pass, Vivi and Lix should prolly be moved up a bit, but even then, Bat, Galv, Uxie, Slurp and Ice Cream are better. So yeah, that's what I got. Umby for C- it is.

 

[UltraBallz]

Between Regi, Cress, Aud, Cuno etc I never really found myself struggling with Specs Goodra. Your team even had several of these, so I'm kinda confused as to how it was a problem to you. I'm assuming it is bc you chose to use a worse defensive steel for more hazard control, and thus felt your fairy/dragon/normal resist wasn't as good, but between Cuno, Cress and an Aud I don't really see how this would be a problem at all, considering hazards are never going up. And if push comes to shove, Aud can mega and thus wall it with ease. Losing Regen is lame af tho.
Stored Power mons are covered by CM Cress and Mandi anyway, so you'd only use it on a stall build where you feature neither, which is rare to say the least. You even had the former on your team, so I'm confused as to why you felt Espy was troublesome. Mono attacking Rest/RP/CM/SP Necro breaks it tho, so I guess in the extremely unlikely event that you faced this, Umby does cover that.
In the end, covering for this specific set, which sees very little usage, does not equate to the pros of Aud at all. So while I get why you may want to opt for it in this extremely specific scenario, it is firstly so rare that idt it deserves to be any higher than C-. Secondly, it may not even be the best option, as you're sacrificing your trick immune Regenwisher with Knock, which gives you a better match up vs lots of other mons instead.
Looking at the VR, the mons in C are all in a better place than Umby, barring Xatu and Quag, which I would honestly rather see join Umby in C-. Admittedly, Pass, Vivi and Lix should prolly be moved up a bit, but even then, Bat, Galv, Uxie, Slurp and Ice Cream are better. So yeah, that's what I got. Umby for C- it is.

yeah but Cress has 8 moonlights and its already pressured to cover so much that you need to have backup checks to most of these mons since Cress PP has to be saved for zygarde, fighting types, etc. And no cress does not beat cm morning sun Espeon at all. (I guess outside of cm on your own but I think you really need a status). And mandi doesn’t really beat it either because elec z is the one I see most often so yeah. I guess my general point is it does have a certain niche depending on the build and I tend to think pokemon like this that only fit on stall and aren’t staples but have certain benefits probably sit best in the C/C+ range when looking at how some of the other PR’s have mons ranked.

Off topic I think Mega Blastoise is definitely not an S ranked mon. Super good spinner but there are a lot of mons that it can never really break past. And with the rise of stuff like florges you lose so much momentum attacking into that thing giving free wishes and heal bells. I think A+ would be more appropriate

 

[Ethereal Balls]

yeah but Cress has 8 moonlights and its already pressured to cover so much that you need to have backup checks to most of these mons since Cress PP has to be saved for zygarde, fighting types, etc. And no cress does not beat cm morning sun Espeon at all. (I guess outside of cm on your own but I think you really need a status). And mandi doesn’t really beat it either because elec z is the one I see most often so yeah. I guess my general point is it does have a certain niche depending on the build and I tend to think pokemon like this that only fit on stall and aren’t staples but have certain benefits probably sit best in the C/C+ range when looking at how some of the other PR’s have mons ranked.

Off topic I think Mega Blastoise is definitely not an S ranked mon. Super good spinner but there are a lot of mons that it can never really break past. And with the rise of stuff like florges you lose so much momentum attacking into that thing giving free wishes and heal bells. I think A+ would be more appropriate

I'm mainly going after the de-ranking of Mega Blastoise for S -> A+. I know this might come across as potentially being "refusing to change" or anything like that & I'm cool with it because I refuse to let anything change in Blastoise's ranking in the current meta-game. White A+ is a tab bit away from S Rank, it's a big deal nonetheless. Mega Blastoise is the face of the RU tier and what glues & holds this tier together. I think from deranking it from S Rank, then I'm assuming you don't understand how Mega Blastoise really impacts this tier. Hell, it doesn't even need a Water move to actually even be effective because it's already good with its Pulse moves & Ice Beam. Nothing really in this tier can switch into Blastoise without getting 2HKO'd or about to be OHKO'd by either a Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Aura Sphere, whatever it may be. It's also the best Spinner in the tier which I do agree with what you said there, but the thing is, it's more reliable than Mandibuzz, Florges, Mantine, Tsareena, & Donphan - all of which are the other best entry hazard removers we got in this tier. This mon heavily influences the metagame because of how bulky, powerful, & what substantial utility it provides in the RU tier. In my opinion, Mega Blastoise stays in S Rank.

 

[eifo]

Mandi was brought up as an SP Espy counter, not an Elec Z one. A set which like I said gets 1v1d with ease by Cress, regardless of whether the user opts for a bulkier or a more offensive spread - which for the record should not be used on SP Espy. At that point you're way better off running psychic instead, due to it having more initial power and your inability to boost anywhere near as easily without bulk invests. But anyway, ye, calcs:

+6 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 169-199 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 140-165 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for Elec Z, well, if you keep it healthy it still beats it 1v1 no prob.

+1 252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 210-248 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Espeon Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 165-195 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not using CM Cress is a huge waste imo, as you lose out on smth that is able to blanket check a ton of extra boosting mons, including f.ex the aforementioned CM Espy and Sub + CM or CM Fight Z Raikou. But more importantly, you lose out on an wincon not called stalling for 200 turns while hoping not to get frozen, fully parad or critted somehow. Having a wincon that isn't PP stalling vs other fatter builds is huuuge.
Alleviating some of the pressure on Cress in order to preserve its PP for what it needs to check is indeed important. This is also why I believe it is much more helpful to use a different mon as your initial switchin, namely the Unaware mon or Mandi. Pyuku being the greatest one to ever do it ofc walls it without breaking a sweat, which is yet again part of why it is the superior Unaware mon; but even Quag can come in on anything but Outrage.
Admittedly, if Quag needs to check something else badly, like say f.ex SD Gatr (which it kind of struggles to anyway, due to its unimpressive bulk, but I digress), one may not want to switch it in on a Zyg sacrificing itself for the cause of getting rid of Quag by locking into Outrage . This is also part of your builds problem, as you opted out of better Tarrows switchins, in choosing Cuno+Tine as the fogggers and Quag as the Unaware mon.
And thus I can understand why you would want Umby over Aud, as it obviously only takes 50 max from Arrows, contrary to Aud which takes 59 max. On the contrary, if Zyg goes for Outrage, Aud is actually in a better spot; as it can regen it off, meanwhile Umby cannot and gets 2hkod. Anyway, I need to round this off. Like I said in the last post, while I can agree that it is a viable pick, I also believe it is an extremely niche one.It is not one suited for the higher C ranks, as the other mons placed there are simply better and more relevant than it. C- or bust bois

 

[UltraBallz]

I never said stored power espeon lol I just said cm but yeah It’s whatever you are really picking teeth and your post doesn’t really have much to do with VR besides trying to pick holes in my team for no reason lol. which pretty much most of what you said about it is wrong anyways. quag is better on that cuz rock resist and mantine is better because of z salazzle. you def don’t need a cm wincon on stall that is totally and completely unnecessary unless you need that boosting move to check pokemon which is an option ofc. The only super important thing on stall is making sure you fog/spin on all the rockers which is normally what ppl don’t understand and why 90% of stalls are terrible

 

[Punchshroom]

So with all this talk of nominating Tangela to be ranked, I'd like to bring up another bulky Grass-type that also walls ZyDog to kingdom come.

Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Synthesis
- Foul Play
- Leech Seed

In exchange for lesser sustain and overall offensive presence, SuperGeist gains the ability to spread burns and an improved ability to check most of the tier's Fighting-types, particularly Virizion who could SD on Tangela's switch into SR and beat it, while still having the physical bulk to take on most of the stronger physical attacks in the tier and retaliate with burn or Foul Play. Colbur is primarily for Machamp but also helps with not giving a damn about Drapion.

+6 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 212-250 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO OMEGALUL
Gourgeist-Super Foul Play vs. +6 Atk 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 210-248 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Gourgeist-Super: 109-129 (29.1 - 34.4%)
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Bewear Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-220 (49.7 - 58.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 132-156 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 208-246 (55.6 - 65.7%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 247-292 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While there's no denying that it requires more support than Tangela in most situations (manual healing and letting in Mega Blastoise for relatively free are pretty awful drawbacks), it still has perks such as being able to spread crippling status constantly instead of threatening sleep once, while also being a better response to most physical boosting threats (except for Barbaracle). Is SuperGeist also worthy of being ranked, or is it just way too passive to bother?

 

[Fusion Flare]

Jolteon: D --> UR(aka the Shadow Realm)

Can we get this absolute dogshit out of the VR and into the shadow realm where it belongs? Jolteon is SO ass at what it tries to do in the meta game, compared to stuff like Mega Ampharos and Raikou, the latter which in particular pretty much overshadows Jolteon by 20 miles. Even ROTOM-C does a better pivoting job, and Rotom-C is ass. I honestly have no idea what it's still doing in the Viability Rankings when nearly everything that it can do, any mon can do better. Pivoting is done better by literally any other mon with Volt Switch/U-Turn, and its outclassed by any other RU special attacker, and special walls literally give it hell, unlike Raikou, which can boost its stats with CM and avoid status with substitute. It just has no place in RU.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Jolteon: D --> UR(aka the Shadow Realm)

Can we get this absolute dogshit out of the VR and into the shadow realm where it belongs? Jolteon is SO ass at what it tries to do in the meta game, compared to stuff like Mega Ampharos and Raikou, the latter which in particular pretty much overshadows Jolteon by 20 miles. Even ROTOM-C does a better pivoting job, and Rotom-C is ass. I honestly have no idea what it's still doing in the Viability Rankings when nearly everything that it can do, any mon can do better. Pivoting is done better by literally any other mon with Volt Switch/U-Turn, and its outclassed by any other RU special attacker, and special walls literally give it hell, unlike Raikou, which can boost its stats with CM and avoid status with substitute. It just has no place in RU.

It has to be ranked though because people on the RU ladder keep using it despite how unviable it is. As long it's above the 3.41 cutoff in RU it can't be unranked.

 

[Denial]

not really good at arguing but i want to revive this thread

A+ ------> S

Easily one of the best mon in the tier, with godlike coverage, good typing, good speed and good bulk. If you play RU idt i really need to explain why this mon is one of the scariest threat on the tier.

B- -------> B/B+

Two of the best offensive typing in the tier + nasty plot + a decent speed tier and checking ninetales in one slot is really good and its proved by the decent usage it got in spl. Also is a decent scarfer.

B --------> B+

Necrozma is a really good rocker with a broken psychic stab, knock off, and in general has a really good bulk. It can also be a decent sd/cmind sweeper, and it makes Necrozma just more unpredictable.

UR -------> C-/C

Literally the best mon to run rn on stall/semistalls, it counters most of the special attackers in the tier and can check zyg 10% and golisopod.

replays

Welli0u vs Ultraballz SPL
Me vs ChillShadow POWC
yay vs finch seasonal

ill try to update with more replays if i can find them ç_ç

Other noms i agree with:
Ribombee: at least B
Golisopod: A
Gardevoir: A-
Milotic: A-
Slowbro: B+
Metagross: A+
Rotom-Mow: D rank

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

to B Ribombee is in a pretty good spot in this meta right now as the rise of fighting types due to losing glues such as doublade and gligar make it much more adequate as a mon that can offensively check and revenge kill the ever so common fighting types alongside other prominent threats such as zygarde, shaymin or even salazzle if you opt to run psychic on the specs set(this is the set I'm mainly nomming for it to rise). It also has better defensive utility than its competition in swellow because it's typing lets it check zygarde and most teams that don't pack a registeel can have a real headache against it since the next best option for a fairy resist is Metagross which doesn't take bug buzz well. It's still frail and requires support to break registeel and such but right now I don't think C+ does ribombee justice for how useful it actually is.

 

[Ethereal Balls]

I promised myself that I was going to make this, so here it is right now.

Bruxish UR -> C/C+

I've talked about this Pokemon to some of the staff of RU and of the VR and all of them have said that this mon should've stayed in the VR. Additionally, this Pokemon has a notable niche in the RU tier that's overlooked by many of this tier. It's ability to sweep teams with its coverage & strong stab moves such as Psychic Fangs, Liquidation, Crunch, Ice Fang, & notable priority Aqua Jet. This is further increased via Strong Jaw which muscles through the bulky Psychic types in the tier & creates a strong STAB option for Psychic Fangs. Even though it's weak to Sucker Punch, most of the Pokemon that carry it can't switch into it & can get played mind games with the access of Swords Dance. Note that this mon also has a coveted 105 Attack and decent 92 speed. In all honesty, Bruxish should join the VR once again, it was removed for little good reason & deserves it's spot back due to the niche it still has in RU.

Other changes I'd prefer to see in the VR.

Rotom Cut -> C-.
Golisopod -> A-/A
Milotic -> A-/B+
Metagross -> A+
Umbreon -> C/C-
Gardevoir -> A-
Virizion -> S
Necrozma -> B+
Houndoom -> B/B+

 

[Senpai D.M]

Yea after w1 of rupl the amount of usage of goli should be a bit higher in rankings. Check the replay thread not tryna be a one liner rof

 

[termi]

B+ -> A: Golisopod is currently trending again as shown by its usage in the first week of RUPL, and for good reason. Many of its checks are relatively falling out favor, with Toxicroak - although it's an amazing breaker - lacking the defensive utility it had in the Milotic meta, Registeel often being passed up for less passive Steels in this highly offensive meta, and Noivern more often running sets that do not have the longevity Taunt + Roost has. Furthermore, Golisopod has way more reason to be put on a team atm since it has the bulk and typing to sponge hits from two hard-to-check top threats in Virizion and Zydog while also checking an array of other physical attackers and still serving as a good revenge killer in general. Emergency Exit is not nearly as detrimental as people think it is and with Sitrus recently becoming more of a thing, teams that want it to have more staying power have ways of accomplishing that.

A- -> A: Feels like this thing's becoming harder to stop with its cookie cutter NP + Poisonium set again. Its speed tier is as great as ever and in tandem with its typing it can perform as a decent offensive check to the offensive Grass types. Being able to pressure Registeel without the risk of getting Toxic stalled also is more valuable than it used to be considering our last major shift saw several things that could do just that (Gligar, Doublade, Mega Lix) leaving the tier. Finally, Florges I think is quite good in this meta and it happens to be absolute perfect setup fodder. So yeah, it's just really threatening and not that hard to fit on teams, I think A rank is appropriate for it.

Strongly agree with the following:

• Arcanine to B/B+: Windsong summed it up pretty well. As threatening as it may be in certain matchups, but most Rock-types and certain Water types make it hard for it to do much of anything in other matchups, and it can be hard to justify a team slot for it when the two other Fire-types are definitely more troublesome to check.
• Ribombee to B-/B: Another Bug that has been on the rise because resisting and outspeeding Virizion and Zygarde in one slot is just that nice. Many a team lacks a reliable Fairy resist these days so Specs can really go in on a lot of teams (non-BP/Scarf Metagross can come in on Moonblast precisely one time), QD's still solid, Webs has also become a neat surprise option on certain builds. Cool and versatile mon, nice asset on various offense teams.
• Florges up, Donphan up, Slowking down, Marowak up, Seismitoad down, Mantine down, Milotic down, FREE BRUXISH

 

[Katy]

Agree with a Arcanine drop, the recoil it takes from Wilde Charge its coverage option and Flare Blitz its only STAB is just not favourable for it. Also other fire types are just better and have immediate breaking power with better abilities or a better speed tier or recoilless move options and coverage options, Salazzle and Ninetales as fire types give Arcanine too much of competition and both these mons are in general more fearsome than Arcanine.

Ribombee should definetly rise, being a check to Zygarde, when it is locked into Outrage and also having access to Psychic which can help against poison types such as Toxicroak and Roserade is amazing, the QD set in general is a really good set right now.

Golisopod should also rise, sees a lot of RU tournament usage and is in general a good offensive mon, even with sets like sitrus berry to prevent it from emergency exiting out.
Insect Plate and Choice Band is still troublesome to switch in to.

Virizion to S hard agree - this mon is a dangerous wallbreaker with having access to a ton of different Z Moves and is great in general, the high speed tier also makes the revenge kill process not easy, cause 108 speed is really good for RU. It can also run more defensive sets and they still put in work. So S is justified.