Salamence is Uber.

[Misa]

If someone would please tell possible actual reasons, as in, actual in-game stuff, then that would be great![/COLOR]

Well the council members think that Mence is broken because it stands out compared to other sweepers, and switching into Mence could be difficult. While not the most valid reason for Mence to be Uber, there are things that people must deal with, even if the changes do not reflect your opinion (I never agreed Mence to be Uber either).

EDIT: I apologize.I couldn't see your post before I posted this.

EDIT 2: Since Salamence is gone, is DDNite a valid option now compared to DD Mence? Nite has more general bulk compared to Mence, thus setting up with Nite could be easier compared to Mence as well. Jolly Dragonite already outspeeds base 130s after a DD anyways.

 

[-FUCK-]

The nine Council Panel Members will convene in a private IRC channel to discuss their feelings on the subject matter, which is of course Salamence. Aeolus and I may release the minutes of this meeting to the public after the Panel has come to their collective decision. Stay tuned, and as always, thanks for your patience.

Since it's been almost two days and the conversation hasn't been released yet I'm guessing it won't be. Why should this not be reveiled? It's not like there would be anything embarrassing or to hide about it.

 

[RBG]

Since it's been almost two days and the conversation hasn't been released yet I'm guessing it won't be. Why should this not be reveiled? It's not like there would be anything embarrassing or to hide about it.

Not all the votes have been made yet in the thread in Suspect voting.

 

[Human]

@RBG
Sorry for going off topic.

@ anyone reading this post
Does anyone know when the minutes will be posted about the reasoning behind the ban and what really made Salamence Ubers?

Also Salamence did have a key role in Standard, you had to prepare for it in some way and at times it is that you pretty much have to fit on your team to force them to switch and break their set up / stall. After Salamence became Ubers I began using my Suspect team on the Standard ladder and went against a Mence and I didn't know whether or not I had a safe switch into it because of how much Mence's sets could vary. Only safe thing I could do was try to phaze him away and even then it would do a lot of damage and be very dangerous.

 

[-FUCK-]

Not all the votes have been made yet in the thread in Suspect voting.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Lady Bug pick up your slack NAO!

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Here's the questions from the beginning. I don't know how to do the fancy quote tags...

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Stall will be much stronger, but not to the point of domination. Mence was a powerful wallbreaker, but did not guarantee one kill on anything. Now that there is one less sweeper to play around, stallers will rekoice while bracing for the next offensive threat.


2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Yes, but so will offense, bulky offense, balance, and semi-stall. And hax, can't forget about the hax.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Starts with Shay and ends with Min. Any questions?

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
It really brought out the immaturity of the Smogon elite. The Smogon Council merely subverted the will of many Smogon users while compromising the former method of suspect testing. If I could post in the PR, I would try to amend the Smogon Council. If we want to speed up the process, then OK, but let's not be stupid about it...

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Not very well. Rayquaza almost completely dominates Salamence, though I could see a Salamence+Rayquaza combo. Time will tell.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Hmm...this is a tough one. Weavile and Mamoswine, definitely. If they stay in OU I will be really surprised. Celebi will fall, as it will have to compete for a slot with Shaymin. I don't want to say Heracross, as I love that bug! HERACROSS FOR OU!

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Shaymin if BL counts. Uxie, maybe. Don't know.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Uhh...if people think it might be broken, then yeah...?


9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I didn't (and still don't) think Mence was Uber. It had checks AND counters (see: Cresselia) and could be easily revenged. Using Mence was a big gamble in itself, as if you predict correctly, you can get one kill per game, but if you mess up, Salamence was wasted. Mence should not have been voted Uber, but mine is just one opinion. I hope at some point the Smogon Council gets abolished and Mence can have a true Suspect Test.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Let's stop looking for stuff to ban, ok? :) If the metagame's not broke, don't fix it!

 

[Pika25]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

Altaria, Flygon and Dragonite will be the only FE dragons that aren't uber, and the latter two were definitely not outclassed by mence (Flygon's Ground type; Nite's X-Speed, Inner Focus, and bulk). Altaria is, of course, still uu.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

I'm pretty certain that stall gets more common while mence is gone.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

Shaymin, Flygon, Dragonite.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

I am a bit surprised. I would prefer an actual suspect test.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

All I can think of is the Mence-Ray combo...

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Celebi would compete for a spot with Shaymin. Most Steels, except Scizor.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Uxie probably, Shay if BL counts...

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Almost when B&W come out? Don't think so...

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

Wasn't, it could easily be checked, and Garchomp's only "pure counter," Scarf-Cune could just as easily be a "pure counter" to Mence as well. Even Cresselia could also counter him. More on DetroitLolcat's post.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

I would wait until B&W...

 

[deluge]

BTW, it is Infernape/Heatran that stand to benefit most from having Latias and then Salamence banned not Stall, IMO.
The Fire types in general love having a set of resists diminished and the Dragons resisted Fire + Fighting + Ground while being fast.
I think Suspect was already bearing this out with Heatran and Infernape assuming the top spots.
Even Magmortar could deserve a shot if it weren't for the SR weakness.
My interest in future developments is entirely spiteful...lulz

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hmm, but would you really say, run Fire Blast / CC / Grass Knot / Thunder Punch Infernape even if you knew Dragonite would totally rape you? I'm not too convinced. Dragonite was a top 10 suspect meta pokemon. I dunno if I'd forego HP Ice just because mence is gone.

 

[Chillarmy]

Or, you could just go with the Physical mix and run Stone Edge. It ensures that Vaporeon can't check you for long and that Tentacruel has to be careful about switching in after it's been revealed since it's taking 40.1% - 47.3% from Stone Edge. It also means that Infernape can abuse U-turn and absolutely murder shit like Starmie.

 

[Megan_Fox]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Fire/Grass/Water cores
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
not any more dominant than before. good stall users will still use stall right, and theres still more than enough stuff capable of beating stall

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
breloom, shaymin, celebi, heatran, etc
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I thought the idea of smogon council to be a cool idea and support it
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
it does good in ubers when partnered with quaza, ive swept and have been swept by a dd mence in ubers before
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
steel types
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
sceptile is what comes to mind, LO sceptile is good.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
well it would have been better if it was sooner but atleast in happened
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
fast, had no safe switch ins. two completly different but equally deadly sets etc etc

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
i dont think theres anything else really.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Or, you could just go with the Physical mix and run Stone Edge. It ensures that Vaporeon can't check you for long and that Tentacruel has to be careful about switching in after it's been revealed since it's taking 40.1% - 47.3% from Stone Edge. It also means that Infernape can abuse U-turn and absolutely murder shit like Starmie.

Not only that, but you get coverage with just 3 moves, so you can fit in U-Turn, Mach Punch or even Swords Dance.

My primary issue with the physical set is Stone Edge's accuracy. :/

 

[Ouro]

Im going to assume with Mence gone well see a huge increase in Dragonite and Flygon usage.

Not yet Shaymin, not yet.

 

[Chillarmy]

My primary issue with the physical set is Stone Edge's accuracy. :/

Fail Edge sucks, but it's a shitload better than being walled by Gyarados/Tentacruel more than often

Also, why would Dragonite get more usage? I'm not kidding, it sucks at stallbreaking and sucks even more as a Dragon Dancer. I guess it's safe to assume that people are going to try replacing Mence, and the fat Dragon apparently fills that role (try checking Breloom without Intimidate, and Lucario without a 306+ Speed you fat Rayquaza wannabe)

In all honesty, can see LO Sceptile getting a lot more usage since it has enough Speed to nail Celebi and Steels with HP Fire.

 

[Curtains]

Fail Edge sucks, but it's a shitload better than being walled by Gyarados/Tentacruel more than often

Also, why would Dragonite get more usage? I'm not kidding, it sucks at stallbreaking and sucks even more as a Dragon Dancer. I guess it's safe to assume that people are going to try replacing Mence, and the fat Dragon apparently fills that role (try checking Breloom without Intimidate, and Lucario without a 306+ Speed you fat Rayquaza wannabe)

In all honesty, can see LO Sceptile getting a lot more usage since it has enough Speed to nail Celebi and Steels with HP Fire.

dragonite with superpower, fire move , t bolt , dracometeor should topple stall. i think sceptile lacks the move pool and defenses to be a threat in ou.

 

[Ouro]

Sceptile? Puh-leez. A slightly faster Shaymin without access to a recovery move or Seed Flare? Sign me right up!

 

[Chillarmy]

dragonite with superpower, fire move , t bolt , dracometeor

And? Coverage doesn't exactly mean that a Pokemon does great against stall. It has to sacrifice the chance to utilize its actual bulk with Roost just to beat... Crocune (who can just set up). On a smaller note, it can't threaten non-Scarf Heatran or Gliscor since both can outspeed it and blow up/Roost off DM and stall it to death. At least Mence had enough Speed to scare both out =/

i think sceptile lacks the move pool and defenses to be a threat in ou

Sceptile is the only offensive Grass-type in OU that outspeeds and both Starmie and ScarfTar, both of whom are going to start popping up more. The lack of a Pursuit weakness is also pretty nice imo. Sceptile also gets Dragon Pulse, which gives it the ability to hit both Flyers, Dragons, AND Scizor.

Oh and lol @ Sceptile only being a faster Shaymin

 

[MSB]

I'm not sure how Salamence did this but I'm noticing a lot more hippos. Anyone else?

 

[nesan]

Hippos and Blisseys. -_-
Also Infernapes.

 

[Chou Toshio]

If Hippo's back and Latias is gone, I guess Special Infernape is back to stay (grass knot too useful). Now with Infernape, again you ask-- do I use Thunder Punch for Cruel/Gyara, or do I actually try to cover Dragonite? Is it worth it?

 

[Chillarmy]

Dragonite, imo, is more worth it to cover; not because it's a huge threat, but because +1 Outrages hurt most of OU. Plus, Rotom-A, Suicune, and Vaporeon check Gyarads pretty effectively.

 

[nevada11]

This sure makes those stall heavy users happy. But seriously, people around here overrate Salamence like fuck. Unlike Garchomp, people aren't revolving their teams around multiple Salamence counters. And also, unlike Garchomp and Latias, by making Salamence uber, you're almost KILLING the pokemon in a sense. Regardless of 'chomp, latias, deoxys-s, and other pokemon kicked out of the OU tier, they are still used VERY frequently in uber. That's definitely not the same for 'mence. While Salamence will probably still be used somewhat in Ubers due to its Intimidate, it is completely outclassed by Rayquaza and Garchomp, and thus, used less often, therefore putting an end in frequent use to everyone's favorite dragon pokemon.

Hell, since we're making Salamence uber, why not make every other pokemon with a 600 base total in stats uber as well? Shouldn't Metagross, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Celebi, Dragonite, and Heatran go uber? Oh God, forget the sarcasm, I can seriously see that actually happen in a few years. And don't tell me Salamence is better than all of these pokemon just because of its ability. I can just see the OU metagame here on smogon degrade itself with more OU to uber converts to the point where the stall-war users taker over the entire metagame! We must stop this evil! (Sarcasm here, but you get my point).

Anyway, I don't like this. I think this is pushing a button that shouldn't have been pushed. The way it happened so fast and sudden was about as poor as LeBron James hosting an hour special on ESPN. Anyway, I barely use Salamence and I barely have problems with it. Salamence's 'late game sweeper' title is also overrrated, it is not that effective. Plus I've never seen many Choice Banded sets, mainly DD/Mixed sets. The only players I believe that actually have major problems with Salamence are users with stall teams as they continue to push their agenda 'till the point where there isn't a sweeper that can threaten their tedious, and annoying, style of play.

 

[Chillarmy]

While Salamence will probably still be used somewhat in Ubers due to its Intimidate, it is completely outclassed by Rayquaza and Garchomp, and thus, used less often, therefore putting an end in frequent use to everyone's favorite dragon pokemon.

Shut up if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Salamence lures out Rayqauaza's checks so it can sweep easier and vice versa. There's also Mence's base 100 Speed, which prevents it from being revenged by Giratina-O, Palkia, Dialga, and it doesn't tie with Rayquaza. Moreover, no one likes that blue fucker anymore than Dragonite

But seriously, stop bitching about Mence being Uber .-.

 

[Wafflez]

Well imo Salamence wasnt that big of a threat as the "pros" of smogon turn it into.Yah those calcs and stuff and "Perfect Type Coverage" may seem good on paper but it really dsnt make it that diverse tbh.Well thats just what i think anyway....Onto the questions


1.How will Mences removal effect the metagame?
Well one things for sure that the overcentralization around mixmence is gona end.Like any1 truly cares about DD lol.Heatran is gona get to top 3 usage...Who knows maybe itl go to top.Fire/Water/Grass cores are gona go up and its prolly gona end the Steel/Dragon cores.I expect to see a lot more flygons and Dragonites trying to fill the void of Mence.Were prolly gona see stuff like LOMixgon and st00f.My freind even made this specsgon lol.I suspect a large amount of people are gona change there salamences with dragonite on their team.It should make the metagame a bit more diverse with some changes in the OU roster.Dont have much else to say about this.


2.Will stall be a dominent force?
No sorry.Dp was just not ment for stall.


3.What pokemon stand out due to the removal of mence?
Flygon And Dragonite will try to take the place of salamence.Maybe Altaria (lulz)?.This must be a really happy day for dragonite because i can bet 10 bucks its gona be on top 10 this month because most ppl will be too lazy to make new teams and simply put it on there vacant team spot which was previously taken by mence.Grass types like Shymin and Breloom are in a festive mood as well.



4.What did you think about the process of Salamences removal?
No comment.Cbf will pokemon politics lol.


5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I dont play ubers a lot.I guess it'l get what we know as the "Wynot Syndrome".Itl finally know how dragonite felt rofl.But the 5 base speed and intimidate are always quite good and yah that "Weakening counters as rayquazas partner" Shit might be good.Idk...

6.What pokemon will see Decrease in Usage?
Scizor.Deffinetly Scizor.I guess stuff like mamo and weavile are going down as well.But mainly stuff that was used to counter Salamence are going down such as Scarfgon and ScarfRachi.Even the ones that are going to be used will probably wont run Speed boosting nature anymore.


7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
I really dont think itl effect UU much at all and wont really help anything other than maybe Shaymin.


8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No.Tbh who cares about 4th gen when 5th is basicly here already =P.But since Latias is gone (Il forever hate you guyz for that >__< ) I guess mence just became even more powerful so maybe.....


9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I really dont see the reason in starting another discussion about this........


10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
PIKA PII!!! Yea light ball Pikachu is just scary!1!!......No seriusly stop banning everything.I really doubt theres anything else we need to ban.But like that guy on page 2 said Banning blissey would be awesome.I really dont know if it has "Uber Qualities" under even support characteristics but since i really dont play stall seeing it gone would help me a lot more XD.




So yeah...Peace.

 

[Towelie]

This sure makes those stall heavy users happy. But seriously, people around here overrate Salamence like fuck. Unlike Garchomp, people aren't revolving their teams around multiple Salamence counters. And also, unlike Garchomp and Latias, by making Salamence uber, you're almost KILLING the pokemon in a sense. Regardless of 'chomp, latias, deoxys-s, and other pokemon kicked out of the OU tier, they are still used VERY frequently in uber. That's definitely not the same for 'mence. While Salamence will probably still be used somewhat in Ubers due to its Intimidate, it is completely outclassed by Rayquaza and Garchomp, and thus, used less often, therefore putting an end in frequent use to everyone's favorite dragon pokemon.

Hell, since we're making Salamence uber, why not make every other pokemon with a 600 base total in stats uber as well? Shouldn't Metagross, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Celebi, Dragonite, and Heatran go uber? Oh God, forget the sarcasm, I can seriously see that actually happen in a few years. And don't tell me Salamence is better than all of these pokemon just because of its ability. I can just see the OU metagame here on smogon degrade itself with more OU to uber converts to the point where the stall-war users taker over the entire metagame! We must stop this evil! (Sarcasm here, but you get my point).

Anyway, I don't like this. I think this is pushing a button that shouldn't have been pushed. The way it happened so fast and sudden was about as poor as LeBron James hosting an hour special on ESPN. Anyway, I barely use Salamence and I barely have problems with it. Salamence's 'late game sweeper' title is also overrrated, it is not that effective. Plus I've never seen many Choice Banded sets, mainly DD/Mixed sets. The only players I believe that actually have major problems with Salamence are users with stall teams as they continue to push their agenda 'till the point where there isn't a sweeper that can threaten their tedious, and annoying, style of play.

Base 100 Speed + Intimidate = not outclassed by chomp quaza. it ties with palkia and hopefully takes it out, while buttfucking quazas counters to let it set up late game.