Salamence Testing: A Feasible Proposition?

[BalancedPower]

Yes ^_^
Sorry bout that.
But don't you think that Suicuine/Vaporeon/Swampert also all take damage pretty well and can generally destroy Salamence pretty easily? Most Water types can do a pretty good job about countering Salamence.

 

[Relictivity]

Yes ^_^
Sorry bout that.
But don't you think that Suicuine/Vaporeon/Swampert also all take damage pretty well and can generally destroy Salamence pretty easily? Most Water types can do a pretty good job about countering Salamence.

True, but most water types don't like taking two LO Outrages in the face, not even Swampert. And Empoleon hates Earthquake (I'll have to check what Outrage does to it). So, if done correctly, Mence should still take them out if they switch in.

Mmm... do any of these waters have the capability to take on Salamence from both sides of the Spectrum?

 

[Misa]

Mmm... do any of these waters have the capability to take on Salamence from both sides of the Spectrum?

If Suicune is geared towards defense, it does a good job of taking hits from Salamence, no matter what type of set Salamence has.

The rest of the bulky waters, not sure.

 

[QibingZero]

If Suicune is geared towards defense, it does a good job of taking hits from Salamence, no matter what type of set Salamence has.

The rest of the bulky waters, not sure.

It really doesn't.

341 SpAtk Life Orbed Draco Meteor to...

252hp/min Suicune: 61.88% - 73.02%

That's 93% minimum damage from two Draco Meteors, conveniently KOing with SR.

240hp/min Swampert: 77.06% - 90.77%

Self-explanatory.

188hp/min Vaporeon: 65.85% - 77.68%

In the same situation as Suicune, taking 99% minimum.


Obviously, you can EV these pokemon to actually take 2 Draco Meteors, but then you not only overspecialize, you actually open yourself up to DDmence, whose +1 Outrage is already a near OHKO with the defensive EVs these pokemon normally run.

I hate to have to note this, but this thread has already been tightly moderated as a result of the crazy Cresselia vs. Mence arguments a few pages back (which seem to be starting up again). Making unsubstantiated claims really isn't helpful in any thread, but this might be one of the worst to do it in.

 

[Darkmalice]

Can people stop using Ice Shard/revenge kill as an argument? Rayquaza dies just as easily to Ice Shard, is slower and therefore easier to revenge kill (if we ignore Extremespeed for the sake of the example) than Salamence, and is hit equally hard by Stealth Rock, but it is obviously Uber, while general consensus seems to be that Salamence is not, so really those points are meaningless; if you are arguing that Salamence is so definitely not a suspect then you need to prove what other factors there are that separate it from Rayquaza. Obviously Rayquaza hits much harder with its much higher offensive stats, but when you get down to it, it doesn't actually make all that much of a difference in that nothing can really wall either of them and the only way to beat them is through priority attacks, outspeeding and koing, or waiting for Life Orb and Sandstorm to take their toll. However, at some point we draw a line between just how "unwallable" something can be and still be OU, and I believe at the moment it is pretty unclear on which side of that line Salamence falls, and in my mind that warrants at least a test.

Rayquaza is a poor example of being a pokemon just as easy to revenge kill. Extremespeed can make a lot of difference.LO Jolly SD boosted Extremespeed has a 74.36% chance of OHKOing 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine with Stealth Rock up. Weavile has no chance at surviving +1 LO Jolly Boosted Extremepseed; against a DD set, it can only come in after it's killed something with Outrage.

And don't forget that Rayquaza is far more unpredicable than Salamance - it has Extremespeed SD, Overheat, Thunderbolt, Surf and more moves that make it superior to Salamance (it's even immune to SS residual damage, meaning it can stay on the field for longer without killing itself).

It really doesn't.

341 SpAtk Life Orbed Draco Meteor to...

252hp/min Suicune: 61.88% - 73.02%

That's 93% minimum damage from two Draco Meteors, conveniently KOing with SR.

240hp/min Swampert: 77.06% - 90.77%

Self-explanatory.

188hp/min Vaporeon: 65.85% - 77.68%

In the same situation as Suicune, taking 99% minimum.


Obviously, you can EV these pokemon to actually take 2 Draco Meteors, but then you not only overspecialize, you actually open yourself up to DDmence, whose +1 Outrage is already a near OHKO with the defensive EVs these pokemon normally run.

I hate to have to note this, but this thread has already been tightly moderated as a result of the crazy Cresselia vs. Mence arguments a few pages back (which seem to be starting up again). Making unsubstantiated claims really isn't helpful in any thread, but this might be one of the worst to do it in.

Obviously, the bulky waters cannot specialise themselves to take both Draco Meteor and Outrage efficiently - very few pokemon are able to take down both of those, along with Earthquake and Flamethrower. Heatproof Bronzong can work if he's in KO range of Gyro Ball and if your opponent doesn't know that it's Heatproof (let's not forget that the KO range is pretty easy to achieve when considering Salamance takes 25% from SR and he generally holds LO). Scizor can do the same if he's in KO range of Bullet Punch, except he only has to switch in on any move save Flamethrower/Fire Blast. Cresselia also works, but let's not bring her up again.

One of the major flaws with Draco Meteor is that once it's used on a bulky water, Hippowdon etc, the opponent will send out their Steel pokemon, knowing that Salamance's Flamethrower is now significantly weaker, or their "Outrage absorber." Draco Meteor gets a good hit, but it's easily taken advantage of afterwards. The only way to power Draco Meteor and Flamethrower back up? Swap out, and watch Salamance return to the field, losing another 25% HP, and he'll be on 40% HP max (at least one turn of LO recoil, and assuming the opponent hasn't laid an attack on Salamance) - he's in easy KO range of many attacks, LO Scizor Bullet Punch being the most threatening. And when Salamance comes back, the opponent will be aware of the Draco Meteor threat.

 

[Blln]

Rayquaza is a poor example of being a pokemon just as easy to revenge kill. Extremespeed can make a lot of difference.LO Jolly SD boosted Extremespeed has a 74.36% chance of OHKOing 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine with Stealth Rock up. Weavile has no chance at surviving +1 LO Jolly Boosted Extremepseed; against a DD set, it can only come in after it's killed something with Outrage.

And don't forget that Rayquaza is far more unpredicable than Salamance - it has Extremespeed SD, Overheat, Thunderbolt, Surf and more moves that make it superior to Salamance (it's even immune to SS residual damage, meaning it can stay on the field for longer without killing itself).

So you're saying Extremespeed is the sole reason Rayquaza is Uber? I actually said to ignore Extremespeed for the sake of the comparison, as I figured most people would say Rayquaza is still Uber without it. About the bigger movepool, what I was arguing is that in reality it doesn't actually make that much of a difference. Rayquaza is unwallable, Salamence is unwallable. Who cares about Thunderbolt when Salamence 2HKOs every single bulky water with Specs Draco Meteor or +1 Outrage. Overheat and Surf are non-factors when you have Fire Blast and Hydro Pump both doing the exact same things. My point is that in order to beat both Salamence and Rayquaza, your only option is really revenge killing. I understand that Rayquaza is more threatening offensively with it's higher stats, but when Salamence is KOing all the same things, and with no Lugia to take on the DD set, it comes out to the same thing.

And this is all assuming an Extremespeed-less Rayquaza, to make the comparison more accurate. I think most people would agree Rayquaza is still Uber without Extremespeed.

 

[IcyMan28]

So you're saying Extremespeed is the sole reason Rayquaza is Uber? I actually said to ignore Extremespeed for the sake of the comparison, as I figured most people would say Rayquaza is still Uber without it. About the bigger movepool, what I was arguing is that in reality it doesn't actually make that much of a difference. Rayquaza is unwallable, Salamence is unwallable. Who cares about Thunderbolt when Salamence 2HKOs every single bulky water with Specs Draco Meteor or +1 Outrage. Overheat and Surf are non-factors when you have Fire Blast and Hydro Pump both doing the exact same things. My point is that in order to beat both Salamence and Rayquaza, your only option is really revenge killing. I understand that Rayquaza is more threatening offensively with it's higher stats, but when Salamence is KOing all the same things, and with no Lugia to take on the DD set, it comes out to the same thing.

And this is all assuming an Extremespeed-less Rayquaza, to make the comparison more accurate. I think most people would agree Rayquaza is still Uber without Extremespeed.

-2HKOing with +1 Outrage isn't enough, as you need 3 turns to do that and all that a bulky water has to do is switch in on the DD and Ice Beam you. And actually, the movepool makes a HUGE difference - wouldn't it be nice to remove those bulky waters without having to severely reduce your special attack? Let's not forget that because Rayquaza has 40 higher base points in sp.atk, its Surf and Overheat are quite enough as opposed to the much less accurate Fire Blast and Hydro Pump.

-You seem to think that being "unwallabe" automatically equates to being Uber, or at least that's the impression I'm getting. All you need these days are checks, and Stealth Rock, Scarves, and priority are so commonplace already that you often end up checking Mence without even thinking about it.

 

[wildfire393]

So you're saying Extremespeed is the sole reason Rayquaza is Uber? I actually said to ignore Extremespeed for the sake of the comparison, as I figured most people would say Rayquaza is still Uber without it. About the bigger movepool, what I was arguing is that in reality it doesn't actually make that much of a difference. Rayquaza is unwallable, Salamence is unwallable. Who cares about Thunderbolt when Salamence 2HKOs every single bulky water with Specs Draco Meteor or +1 Outrage. Overheat and Surf are non-factors when you have Fire Blast and Hydro Pump both doing the exact same things. My point is that in order to beat both Salamence and Rayquaza, your only option is really revenge killing. I understand that Rayquaza is more threatening offensively with it's higher stats, but when Salamence is KOing all the same things, and with no Lugia to take on the DD set, it comes out to the same thing.

And this is all assuming an Extremespeed-less Rayquaza, to make the comparison more accurate. I think most people would agree Rayquaza is still Uber without Extremespeed.

Yes, Rayquaza is Uber without ExtremeSpeed, but it certainly doesn't hurt. Here are Rayquaza's advantages over Salamence
1) 15 more points base attack. Doesn't sound like much, but Max Jolly Rayquaza has only 6 points less attack than Max Adamant Mence. And considering most 'Mences run a +Speed nature and actually reduce attack a bit to bump up SpA (and Rayquaza can afford to go Adamant due to ExtremeSpeed), Rayquaza comes out quite a bit ahead here. Max+ Attack Rayquaza has 74 more attack than your average DDMence, which is equivilent to a 20% increase.
2) 40 more points base Special Attack. This is really significant. Rayquaza hits a max SpA of 438, which is a full 88 points above Max SpA Salamence. With Specs slapped on, he has a 132 point lead over Mence, which is certainly signficant. Also, Negative Nature, Minimum Special Attack Rayquaza still hits 302 SpA, while Salamence hits only 262 SpA on the standard Dragon Dance set. So Rayquaza gets max Attack, an extra 4 points in HP, and a nature that's defensively neutral while still maintaining significantly higher attack scores from both ends of the spectrum.
3) Defenses. +10 HP, +10 Defense, +10 Special Defense gives Rayquaza defenses that are more on par with Garchomp's, allowing him to take switch-in hits, special hits, and revenge kill hits that much better. Add this to a Sandstorm immunity granted by his ability and his lifespan suddenly goes way up.
4) Movepool. Rayquaza gets Swords Dance in addition to Dragon Dance, which is a major boost for a stat-up set. Combine this with ExtremeSpeed and you have a hellishly powerful nightmare of a Pokemon. Anything faster is going to have to contend with a +2 LO ExtremeSpeed, and anything slower is likely going to eat an Outrage, Earthquake, or other powerful move. It's like getting the benefits of DD's speed while still getting a much higher attack boost, which, let us remember, was one of the main factors in Garchomp's banning. Also potentially notable are: Bulk Up, Overheat, Surf, Thunder/Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Waterfall, and every single worthwhile move that Salamence gets.

 

[Blln]

You guys are kind of missing what I'm trying to say. I REALIZE Rayquaza is better than Salamence; I'm not saying Rayquaza in any way deserves to be tested. The whole purpose behind my allusion was merely to point out that Rayquaza (again this is assuming no Extremespeed, we have already agreed Rayquaza is still Uber without it) cannot effectively SWEEP in OU - with the prevalence of Stealth Rock, revenge killers, and powerful priority attacks - much better than Salamence can sweep in OU. However, Rayquaza is still obviously too strong for the OU metagame, and this comes down to the fact that there is nothing that can every really switch into Rayquaza reliably, even when you know its set. What I am trying to argue is that, although not at all to the same extent as Rayquaza, Salamence has this effect as well, and, as proven by Rayquaza, at SOME point this factor causes a pokemon to be "broken" and necessitates a ban. I'm not arguing that Salamence should be banned, only that I feel at this point that line is not particularly clear, and because of that, Salamence deserves a test.

-You seem to think that being "unwallabe" automatically equates to being Uber, or at least that's the impression I'm getting. All you need these days are checks, and Stealth Rock, Scarves, and priority are so commonplace already that you often end up checking Mence without even thinking about it.

replace "Mence" with "Extremespeed-less Rayquaza"

 

[Darkmalice]

You guys are kind of missing what I'm trying to say. I REALIZE Rayquaza is better than Salamence; I'm not saying Rayquaza in any way deserves to be tested. The whole purpose behind my allusion was merely to point out that Rayquaza (again this is assuming no Extremespeed, we have already agreed Rayquaza is still Uber without it) cannot effectively SWEEP in OU - with the prevalence of Stealth Rock, revenge killers, and powerful priority attacks - much better than Salamence can sweep in OU. However, Rayquaza is still obviously too strong for the OU metagame, and this comes down to the fact that there is nothing that can every really switch into Rayquaza reliably, even when you know its set. What I am trying to argue is that, although not at all to the same extent as Rayquaza, Salamence has this effect as well, and, as proven by Rayquaza, at SOME point this factor causes a pokemon to be "broken" and necessitates a ban. I'm not arguing that Salamence should be banned, only that I feel at this point that line is not particularly clear, and because of that, Salamence deserves a test.
replace "Mence" with "Extremespeed-less Rayquaza"

You are missing the points of our posts. We are saying why your posts are not reason to believe that Salamance is Uber. You are comparing Salamance to Rayquaza without Extremespeed. We are saying why that is wrong - Rayquaza has many advantages over Salamance.

And if we assume your posts are true, and assume that Rayquaza is just as good to Salamance by saying that Rayquaza cannot effectively sweep in OU, that is not a reason to say Salamance is Uber. You would be proving, if anything, that Rayquaza is OU. And that is complete nonsense.

 

[Relictivity]

You are missing the points of our posts. We are saying why your posts are not reason to believe that Salamance is Uber. You are comparing Salamance to Rayquaza without Extremespeed. We are saying why that is wrong - Rayquaza has many advantages over Salamance.

And if we assume your posts are true, and assume that Rayquaza is just as good to Salamance by saying that Rayquaza cannot effectively sweep in OU, that is not a reason to say Salamance is Uber. You would be proving, if anything, that Rayquaza is OU. And that is complete nonsense.

I believe you listed those reasons earlier in the thread.

So what does that extra Attack/Special Attack allow Rayquaza to KO that Mence can't.

And what does that extra Defense/HP allow it to survive that Mence cannot.

And even more, is it worth giving up the 10 speed?

Mence's and Ray's movepool are similar enough, so show me how the stats make a difference. In fact the only difference other than stats that really shows up to me is the fact that sandstorm doesn't work initially switching in Rayquaza. Of course, if T-Tar, Hippo, or Snow switches in afterwards, I belive the weather still takes effect.

Also, the drop in speed from using Swords Dance over Dragon Dance is... significant. And you will risk getting walled if you use Extremespeed in place of another attack.

Notice I'm not saying Ray should be OU. Just tell me the difference specifically.

All in all, there needs to be better reasons for not testing Salamence then "He's 2HKOd by Bullet Punch and 1HKOd by Ice Shard after Stealth Rock" and "If you have Skarmory/Bronzong and Heatran on the same team, you are safe." These are both highly situational, and are forcing YOU to build your team around Salamence, and not the other way around. Does this fit centralization?

I hope I did not go too far with that last statement. If someone has noticed a major flaw in reasoning in it, please PM me, so I can fix it. Thanks.

 

[Blln]

You are missing the points of our posts. We are saying why your posts are not reason to believe that Salamance is Uber. You are comparing Salamance to Rayquaza without Extremespeed. We are saying why that is wrong - Rayquaza has many advantages over Salamance.

And if we assume your posts are true, and assume that Rayquaza is just as good to Salamance by saying that Rayquaza cannot effectively sweep in OU, that is not a reason to say Salamance is Uber. You would be proving, if anything, that Rayquaza is OU. And that is complete nonsense.

ok i am having some trouble articulating what i am actually trying to get at apparently, but the point of my comparison was to say that similarity to Rayquaza, while not grounds for proving Salamence Uber, could stand as a reason for Salamence MAYBE being uber, and thus a supsect. YES Rayquaza is a better pokemon and has many advantages over Salamence, seriously i am fully aware of that don't worry. The main point I am trying to make here though is that Salamence has the potential to be uber in the same way as Rayquaza, while not necessarily to the same extent as Rayquaza.

The fact that everything you said in regards to priority attacks, Stealth Rock, and Choice Scarfers just as easily applies to Extremespeed-less Rayquaza as it does for Salamence shows that Rayquaza does not have a much easier time sweeping in Standard than Salamence. This doesn't mean Rayquaza is fit for Standards, it just shows something can be Uber WITHOUT being able to easily sweep. What I am suggesting is that Salamence may perhaps fall into this definition of Uber. The very fact that Rayquaza is Uber even with the prevalence of CBScizors and common pokemon that outspeed and KO it shows that Salamence could potentially be Uber despite these same shortcomings.

 

[LoveDensity]

I agree, Cresselia is the best overall counter to Salamence. I remember when Garchomp was round, Cresselia was very popular in teams. This metagame around, more teams can take on Cresselia easily, thus making it easier for Salamence to thrive.

Ok, something like SpecsMence is walled completely by Blissey. But the point of people thinking it should be tested is because of the unpredictability of which set it would use. Would it go all physical with DD, CB which destroys most things that wall the special set. MixMence is something that can hit hard from spectrums. Skarm/Fortresses/Scizor does not like a Draco Meteor, then Fire Blast. Heatran doesnt like draco meteor, then earthquake. Probably not a very good example, but the unpredictability of what set it may use can make a team easier to sweep. Special Sets is absolutely wrecks physical walls. Salamence can also play a role in the overcentralizing in steels to take those dragon attacks.

 

[Darkmalice]

I believe you listed those reasons earlier in the thread.

So what does that extra Attack/Special Attack allow Rayquaza to KO that Mence can't.

And what does that extra Defense/HP allow it to survive that Mence cannot.

And even more, is it worth giving up the 10 speed?

Mence's and Ray's movepool are similar enough, so show me how the stats make a difference. In fact the only difference other than stats that really shows up to me is the fact that sandstorm doesn't work initially switching in Rayquaza. Of course, if T-Tar, Hippo, or Snow switches in afterwards, I belive the weather still takes effect.

Also, the drop in speed from using Swords Dance over Dragon Dance is... significant. And you will risk getting walled if you use Extremespeed in place of another attack.

Notice I'm not saying Ray should be OU. Just tell me the difference specifically.

All in all, there needs to be better reasons for not testing Salamence then "He's 2HKOd by Bullet Punch and 1HKOd by Ice Shard after Stealth Rock" and "If you have Skarmory/Bronzong and Heatran on the same team, you are safe." These are both highly situational, and are forcing YOU to build your team around Salamence, and not the other way around. Does this fit centralization?

I hope I did not go too far with that last statement. If someone has noticed a major flaw in reasoning in it, please PM me, so I can fix it. Thanks.

SD Boosted Jolly Outrage vs:

• Max HP/Def Skarmory = 48.20% - 56.59% damage. A 87.51% chance to 2HKO. Most Skarmory don't run this much Def.
• Max HP/Def Forretress = 45.48% - 53.39% damage. A 31.69% chance to 2HKO. Most Skarmory don't run this much Def.
• Max HP and 144 Def Forretress (the set mentioned in the analysis) = 48.59% - 57.34% damage. A 93.29% chance to 2HKO.
• Max HP/Def Cresselia = 81.08% - 95.50% damage. (Adamant Outrage has a 28.21% chance to OHKO.)

Even those who resist Outrage are likely to be 2HKOed by a SD Boosted LO Outrage, meaning they cannot swap in on Rayquaza as it Outrages. And they can't swap in before, for Overheat will OHKO.

Rayquaza with Outrage, Swords Dance and Overheat is resisted only by Heatran - Heatran is obviously OHKOed by +2 LO Outrage.


Naive MixQuaza is definitely a superior mix sweeper to Rash Salamance. It has greater Speed and SpA (399 compared to 350). Results:
LO Hasty Rayquaza's Draco Meteor vs

• Max HP / 88 SDef Hippowdon (standard) = 92.14% - 108.57% damage. A 46.15% chance of a OHKO. (Rash Outrage is a guaranteed OHKO).
• Max HP / 0 SDef Swampert = 89.36% - 105.45%. A 28.21% chance of a OHKO. (Rash Outrage has a 87.18% chance of a OHKO).
• Max HP / 0 SDef Cresselia = 59.46% - 70.27%. A 40 Atk Outrage from this Rayquaza deals 35.14% - 41.44% damage to Cresselia. Together, that's 94.62% - 111.71% damage. A likely OHKO - Even the "best" Salamance counter cannot take a Draco Meteor and an Outrage, a gift that Salamance would love to claim.

As for Scizor's LO Bullet Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza... 43.59% - 51.28% damage. This is only a 3.22% chance of a 2HKO. One could argue that Stealth Rock wasn't taken into consideration, but I didn't take it into consideration for Rayquaza's attacks, turning many of those 2HKOs into OHKOs.

 

[Relictivity]

SD Boosted Jolly Outrage vs:

• Max HP/Def Skarmory = 48.20% - 56.59% damage. A 87.51% chance to 2HKO. Most Skarmory don't run this much Def.
• Max HP/Def Forretress = 45.48% - 53.39% damage. A 31.69% chance to 2HKO. Most Skarmory don't run this much Def.
• Max HP and 144 Def Forretress (the set mentioned in the analysis) = 48.59% - 57.34% damage. A 93.29% chance to 2HKO.
• Max HP/Def Cresselia = 81.08% - 95.50% damage. (Adamant Outrage has a 28.21% chance to OHKO.)

Mence manages the KO on Skarmory and Fortress with Draco Meteor. If you run Max Attack and Dragon Dance, you can Outrage yourself through Cressalia. Luckily, no Salamence as far as I know run that requirement.
Even those who resist Outrage are likely to be 2HKOed by a SD Boosted LO Outrage, meaning they cannot swap in on Rayquaza as it Outrages. And they can't swap in before, for Overheat will OHKO.
Your forgetting some of the negative effects of using Swords Dance over Dragon Dance. You outsped by Weavile, Frosslass, Strarmie, Gengar, and Tentacruel. And you are outsped by many Scarfers such as Lucario and Porygon-Z. Ultimately, it falls to the same pokemon.

Rayquaza with Outrage, Swords Dance and Overheat is resisted only by Heatran - Heatran is obviously OHKOed by +2 LO Outrage.


Naive MixQuaza is definitely a superior mix sweeper to Rash Salamance. It has greater Speed Nope, less speed, unless you are using Dragon Dance. and SpA (399 compared to 350). Results:
LO Hasty Rayquaza's Draco Meteor vs

• Max HP / 88 SDef Hippowdon (standard) = 92.14% - 108.57% damage. A 46.15% chance of a OHKO. (Rash Outrage is a guaranteed OHKO).

Mence already met the magic number with Draco Meteor. And Outrage hurts despite it's lower Special Defense.

• Max HP / 0 SDef Swampert = 89.36% - 105.45%. A 28.21% chance of a OHKO. (Rash Outrage has a 87.18% chance of a OHKO).

Same thing here.

• Max HP / 0 SDef Cresselia = 59.46% - 70.27%. A 40 Atk Outrage from this Rayquaza deals 35.14% - 41.44% damage to Cresselia. Together, that's 94.62% - 111.71% damage. A likely OHKO - Even the "best" Salamance counter cannot take a Draco Meteor and an Outrage, a gift that Salamance would love to claim.

Nothing can take an Draco Meteor followe by an Outrage from Max Attack, high Special Attack Mence either.

As for Scizor's LO Bullet Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza... 43.59% - 51.28% damage. This is only a 3.22% chance of a 2HKO. One could argue that Stealth Rock wasn't taken into consideration, but I didn't take it into consideration for Rayquaza's attacks, turning many of those 2HKOs into OHKOs.
You have to incorporate in Stealth Rock, it is still a 2HKO with Mence, without the Intimidate, with it down.

Truthfully, these differences don't make Ray any better than Mence. Sure, a little bit more chance to 1HKO, but it still suffers from the same problems... Revenge Killers + Stealth Rock.

 

[Caelum]

I understand the value of comparing established uber Pokemon to a "potential" uber Pokemon; but let's try to stay away from the Salamence vs. Rayquaza comparison since that doesn't aid the discussion and, it's clear, from the last page / 2 pages that it's going to lead no where

 

[blasphemy1]

Please do not try and defend that Salamence is nearly as good as Rayquaza, that is outrageous. I honestly don't even know why we are comparing these two anyways. Just because one pokemon is better than another doesn't make the worse of the two OU, you have to gauge how it affects the metagame and how it would be without it. The problematic part of this is Stealth Rock is pretty much a predetermined battle condition in DP, so Salamence already seems less and less difficult to take down.

 

[IcyMan28]

Please do not try and defend that Salamence is nearly as good as Rayquaza, that is outrageous. I honestly don't even know why we are comparing these two anyways. Just because one pokemon is better than another doesn't make the worse of the two OU, you have to gauge how it affects the metagame and how it would be without it. The problematic part of this is Stealth Rock is pretty much a predetermined battle condition in DP, so Salamence already seems less and less difficult to take down.

Stealth Rock is a big factor, yes, but the way people play pokemon today is also a big factor as well. No one has complained about Salamence since back in September when it gained Outrage, until this thread at least. The general consensus seems to be that, at least for now, Salamence is a threat that needs to be accounted for but is still perfectly manageable. I think that maybe we need a bit more time to see if Salamence usage continues to climb, or if more people start complaining about Mence (although I don't see why they would just now start to do so), to decide whether it merits a test or not.

 

[Syberia]

No one has complained about Salamence since back in September when it gained Outrage, until this thread at least.

I don't necessarily think Salamence deserves to be uber, but I'm sure there have been more people "complaining" about it than have made themselves evident. I can almost 100% guarantee some people had a "problem" with Salamence before this thread, but thought it would make them look "stupid" to make a topic about it, like the OP eventually did.

 

[MetaNite]

As much as I hate Salamence's guts, it is in no way even worthy of a suspect test.

Sure it deals loads of damage, but once it is locked into Outrage it is easily taken care of. Unlike Garchomp, Salamence isn't able to OHKO stuff like Swampert and Suicune once it is locked into Outrage. A +2 Garchomp can, meaning it has less counters.

Don't even compare it and Rayquaza. Just looking at its stats should tell you they are uncomparable.

It's quite obvious Salamence can sweep teams and that many teams must have a few checks to it, but it will usually not 6-0 like I remember Garchomp could. Between Life Orb, stealth Rock and priority it can be worn down quickly and is far from uber status. If anything, Scizor should be tested but let's not get into that.

 

[DeadDream829]

Unlike Garchomp, Scizor has a 100% counter. Its still a monster, but at least a team can prepare for him.

 

[blasphemy1]

Stealth Rock is a big factor, yes, but the way people play pokemon today is also a big factor as well. No one has complained about Salamence since back in September when it gained Outrage, until this thread at least. The general consensus seems to be that, at least for now, Salamence is a threat that needs to be accounted for but is still perfectly manageable. I think that maybe we need a bit more time to see if Salamence usage continues to climb, or if more people start complaining about Mence (although I don't see why they would just now start to do so), to decide whether it merits a test or not.

Simple answer. People are sheep. The second another person brings up a conflict, whoever else that may vaguely feel that way will join in and actually let there voice be heard. Until a thread is created, it is unlikely you will hear most of the complaints people have.

I honestly can't think of any other reason, except the psychological aspect of humans.

 

[Heartgold]

If you people think Mence should be uber beacuse of it's unpredictablility and able to 2HKO everything, also nothing can safely switch in. Well Dragonite is also capable of 2HKO'ing everything in the current metagame, what do you think of that? There's no 100% counters for nite too.

 

[Relictivity]

If you people think Mence should be uber beacuse of it's unpredictablility and able to 2HKO everything, also nothing can safely switch in. Well Dragonite is also capable of 2HKO'ing everything in the current metagame, what do you think of that? There's no 100% counters for nite too.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to bring this thread back up again, I think it could cause problems...

My problem with Dragonite, is that it cannot complete a sustained sweep, especially with Superpower. Note that I'm being brief to not contradict my firs statement.

However, I really think that we should all re-analyze our look on Salamence, because all we seem to do is compare it to other pokemon, which the mods don't seem to like very much. We need to figure out what makes it or breaks it.

 

[lati0s]

I'm not sure it is a good idea to bring this thread back up again, I think it could cause problems...

My problem with Dragonite, is that it cannot complete a sustained sweep, especially with Superpower. Note that I'm being brief to not contradict my firs statement.

However, I really think that we should all re-analyze our look on Salamence, because all we seem to do is compare it to other pokemon, which the mods don't seem to like very much. We need to figure out what makes it or breaks it.

what do you mean dragonite can't sweep, witha dragon dance or two under his belt he sweeps just as well as DDsalamence, super power shouldn't be used on sets trying to sweep, its much better on the wallbreaker/choice band sets