Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[lordkira]

Salamence has no place in uber metagame, since previously mentioned, Rayquaza is a powered up Salamence. Why would you use Salamence? Intimidate? As if Intimidate make any difference in Uber, most attackers are mixed or special or dragon that kicks salamence in the nut (Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai, Palkia, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Kingdra (in rain), Latios).

Salamence would never shine in Uber because of its 100 base speed, Garchomp became Uber mostly because if you throw a scarf at it, you revenge kill the whole metagame (unless you see something like Scarf Darkrai/Mewtwo o_O). But with 100 base speed, he'll have to use scarf just to get on a speed tie with the mighty Scarf Palkia.

Face it, Salamence is a SUPER pokemon, that's why some tournments make 1 SUPER only, but he is OU, he might be the Dragon King of OU, but he's OU. There's no point in doing suspect rating to a pokemon that isn't uber material.

It REALLY does not matter whether how well he will do in the UBER environment. The only thing that matters is his impact on the current OU metagame. Sure Salamence is, for the most part, outclassed by the likes of Rayquaza but why should that matter for its tier placement? Look at the Deoxys forms, the formes like the normal form is simply not used very much but it is still considered UBER because it is believed to be too powerful for the OU meta. We all know Salamence is a powerful pokemon and whether or not we have a suspect testing stage for it, we shouldn't decide this matter on the issue of the pokemon's possible status in the UBER tier.

EDIT: Also, UBER tier of Smogon is NOT a balanced tier. It is simply a ban list of the OU tier that we are "allowed" to exploit or battle in for the sake of...fun.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Perhaps one of the lines of my signature (two posts above, I won't put it into this post) could find its way onto other signatures. That might help people learn. Also, Jumpman16 already told us why the Rayquaza comparisons must stop.

EDIT: Er, last post on the previous page, as of this post and this edit.

 

[lordkira]

We can compare the similar individual sets like the offensive DD set, but the SD set makes it so that overall the two pokies are very different yes we know but rayquaza has nothing to do here in the suspect testing so it really doesn't matter, especially when the difference in strength between mence and ray is not small but enormous...HUGE, gigantic, astronomical, etc (lol). Well even that doesn't matter I guess on whether Salamence should be suspect tested or not :/

 

[DarkLynx]

EDIT: @ DarkLynx
For what seems like the zillionth time, UBER STATUS IS DETERMINED BY PERFORMANCE IN OU, NOT IN UBERS!

EDIT AGAIN: Though I'm against a test, I might suggest we use the same ladder, only moniter use of Mence to see how much everyone goes up against it.

There were so many posts about how to easily counter Mence in OU, that I had to talk about how outclassed it would be in Uber, since it seems proving how easily countered Mence is isn't enough -.-'

@lordkira

Of course it is balanced. The only poke I don't see in Ubers match is Deoxies normal, because people prefer to use attack form to attack, speed form to set up spikes and defense form to defend.

The whole point of suspect metagame is to see if promoting a pokemon to uber will make OU more fair. And I don't think they promoted any poke to Uber just because it was strong in OU, even if people wouldn't use it.

My point is, to be eligible to be a suspect, it HAS to be eligible to be a Uber, and Mence simply doesn't fit the criteria, so there is NO point in promoting it to Uber.

And if Mence is promoted to Uber, people will start threads to ban Tyranitar (Uber stats in Sand, which he summons), ban Scizor (throw a Swords Dance at it and you have a late game sweep) and OU will suck.

You guys should face it, is Salamence STRONG? Yes. A LOT! But is he Uber? No way in hell. I've never been swept by a Salamence, and even if I did, that's because my team was weak against it. The same way my team could be weak to Scarfed Porygon Z with Ice Beam, and this doesn't make Porygon Z uber.

Let's go back to Uber requirements:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

He can't sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort, UNLESS it's late game, and this doesn't count, many pokes are capable of doing that (My Expert Belt Jolteon loved to do that some while ago).

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Mence can't stall a significante portion of the metagame, with Roost and Toxic, is usually need Dragon Claw and Earthquake/Flamethrower, either way, it becames setup fodder depending on which move he chooses. If he chooses Earthquake, Skarmory can come and throw some layers of spikes, and Scizor can SD up. If he chooses Flamethrower, then Heatran will switch in with pleasure and put a sub up, then start firing off powerful Fire Blasts, just to make Salamence burn and become useless. And this three pokes are WAY TOO commom to even consider making Salamence a suspect.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

That I don't know, never used mence as a support drako.

And as I said earlier, Salamence is weak to priority. So if you think about it, Gyarados is way more uber than Salamence (Taunt, Dragon Dance, awesome 20% flinch rate stabbed move, resistant to one of the most used priority move of the game [Bullet Punch] among other things.)
You can Dragon Dance 6 times with mence, and die to an Ice Shard. But if you DD 6 times with Gyarados, it's game.

 

[Ira Aeternam]

Salamence does not belong in Uber. Yes, it is a very threatening Pokemon. Yes, with or without set-up, he can be a force to reckon with. The thing is, he has a lot of checks in some commonly used pokemon. Not only that, but due to the fact that he is a bit overhyped, many, many teams use him. Because of this widespread use, he is very well-known and therefore very easy to predict/counter.

Because knowing is half the battle.

 

[lordkira]

if what you say is correct then deoxys's normal form should become OU and again you don't get what the uber tier is. that particular tier is not an actual tier but a ban list, if anything is too powerful for ou it becomes uber not because it will do well in uber.

 

[Objection]

if what you say is correct then deoxys's normal form should become OU and again you don't get what the uber tier is. that particular tier is not an actual tier but a ban list, if anything is too powerful for ou it becomes uber not because it will do well in uber.

Did you actually read the post? It wasn't "Salamence is so crap in Ubers that there's no way he could be Uber", it was "Salamence has several checks in the OU metagame and is used so frequently that most OU teams will be prepared for him".

EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were replying to Ira Aeternam.

 

[lordkira]

Did you actually read the post? It wasn't "Salamence is so crap in Ubers that there's no way he could be Uber", it was "Salamence has several checks in the OU metagame and is used so frequently that most OU teams will be prepared for him".

Then read what he said again.
Here, I even found the post for you. Even from the first statement you should know what his point is.

Salamence has no place in uber metagame, since previously mentioned, Rayquaza is a powered up Salamence. Why would you use Salamence? Intimidate? As if Intimidate make any difference in Uber, most attackers are mixed or special or dragon that kicks salamence in the nut (Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai, Palkia, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Kingdra (in rain), Latios).

Salamence would never shine in Uber because of its 100 base speed, Garchomp became Uber mostly because if you throw a scarf at it, you revenge kill the whole metagame (unless you see something like Scarf Darkrai/Mewtwo o_O). But with 100 base speed, he'll have to use scarf just to get on a speed tie with the mighty Scarf Palkia.

Face it, Salamence is a SUPER pokemon, that's why some tournments make 1 SUPER only, but he is OU, he might be the Dragon King of OU, but he's OU. There's no point in doing suspect rating to a pokemon that isn't uber material.

edit: actually it was my bad I was replying to dark and i should have specified who i was talking to.

 

[Boondocker]

I think that salamence is worthy of a test because of its unpredictability. As others have said, both sets have checks, but none of them overlap (except maybe cressila who is crap otherwise). So if you guess wrong a HUGE hole will be blown in your team, and some varients can just switch out and do it again. This gives room for you other sweepers to sweep so i think he fits under the support characteristcic

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Realistically, the support characteristic is the place where he'd match the best. I mentioned a few pages back that his unpredictability allows him to punch holes in teams as they can't know which set he's running and pave the way for numerous other things to come in and clean up.

My point is, to be eligible to be a suspect, it HAS to be eligible to be a Uber, and Mence simply doesn't fit the criteria, so there is NO point in promoting it to Uber.

Err, he doesn't have to be "eligible" as an Uber, he has to fit one of the Uber characteristics and be too strong for OU. Maybe that's what you meant, but the word eligible is misleading, as it suggests that he must be capable of competing in Uber.

 

[Aura Guardian]

There are a number of pokemon that can survive the Outrage. Spiker Skarmory shrugs off a +1 LO Outrage (less than 50%, not even SR gives a chance at a 2HKO), Jirachi with Ice can always revenge a +1 LO mence locked into Outrage, and Scizor can revenge either with SD + [LO, possibly] + BP, or with CB BP. the prior gives you a chance to blow a hole in your opponents team wider than Mence could have, and the prior eliminates a threat after 0-1 KOs. It isn't everything, but some of those are common enough that Mence is not as much of a threat in this metagame. Were the checks all to fall to UU or rise to Uber, I would likely reconsider. However, Mence's checks are common enough, and one of Mence's most lethal attacks is balanced enough, that Mence is not, in this metagame, Uber, and thus, not suspect. Just my opinion

 

[DJXO9]

There are a number of pokemon that can survive the Outrage. Spiker Skarmory shrugs off a +1 LO Outrage (less than 50%, not even SR gives a chance at a 2HKO), Jirachi with Ice can always revenge a +1 LO mence locked into Outrage, and Scizor can revenge either with SD + [LO, possibly] + BP, or with CB BP. the prior gives you a chance to blow a hole in your opponents team wider than Mence could have, and the prior eliminates a threat after 0-1 KOs. It isn't everything, but some of those are common enough that Mence is not as much of a threat in this metagame. Were the checks all to fall to UU or rise to Uber, I would likely reconsider. However, Mence's checks are common enough, and one of Mence's most lethal attacks is balanced enough, that Mence is not, in this metagame, Uber, and thus, not suspect. Just my opinion

If I know my opponent still has a healthy enough Skarmory that can take a +1 Outrage, I'm not trying to sweep anytime soon. I'm still working on taking it out with one of my other pokemon.

Even then, Naive DD Mence does 34.4% - 40.7% damage to the Skarmory you are referring to. Naughty DD Mence does 38% - 44.9%. That means if you get it down to 46.9% health before it switches out, it will die to Outrage and Stealth Rock. With Naughty, it needs to be at 50.5%, just over half. Getting a Skarmory down to 46.9% or 50.5% isn't impossible anyways. And what happens if said DD Mence isn't running Outrage, but Dragon Claw. Skarmory won't be walling Mence anytime soon as he won't be locked into anything and will be able to just Fire Blast.

You also keep on mentioning Steel-type pokemon able to revenge Salamence locked on Outrage. No good battler is setting up their DD Mence when their opponent still has ScarfRachi, let alone use Outrage when the can be easily revenged. If I run OUtrage, 99% of the time, I use Magnezone, along with a Rotom-H or maybe a Heatran as a secondary insurance to said Steel-types.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I really think the MixMence set is more capable of fitting the support characteristic than the DDMence set. The thing is, given how commonplace the DDMence set is, you can't ignore it in building your team. As a result of those two things combined, I think that's what puts him over the edge and worth a suspect test. I really think testing the OU metagame without Mence in it would be valuable.

Jirachi with Ice can always revenge a +1 LO mence locked into Outrage

Yeah, but it speed ties with the +1 DDMence. If it loses, it takes 59-69.5% damage, especially considering we're talking about revenge killing here, so Mence has already killed something. Latias is a much better revenge killer, as Scarf'd variants always outspeed +1 Mence and OHKO with their own DM. Also, trust me, SDScizor does not want to set up on a +1 Outrage. That'll deal 73.7-86.9% of its life in damage on the turn it SD's. If it's using a life orb, it's done in one attack after taking down Mence. CBScizor is the best set on Scizor for beating up Mence.

This is all without considering the possibility of those Pokemon being dead by the time DDMence appears, of course.

 

[akarias]

That's like saying you won't set up PlotApe if you know the opponent has latias. Just by saying you won't be setting salamence up if you somehow mysteriously know the opponent has scarfrachi or skarmory, means that salamence has counters. Besides, virtually everything faster than mence will beat it (latias, infernape, jolteon), and everything slower will either status it (celebi, hell even rotom or blissey), or just out tank it (swampert, suicune). So mence hardly has any room to set up at all, especially with that 25% health stripped off, which makes even resisted attacks like heatran's fireblast impossible to switch into.

 

[Aura Guardian]

I really think the MixMence set is more capable of fitting the support characteristic than the DDMence set. The thing is, given how commonplace the DDMence set is, you can't ignore it in building your team. As a result of those two things combined, I think that's what puts him over the edge and worth a suspect test. I really think testing the OU metagame without Mence in it would be valuable.

I could say similar things of Lucario or Scizor or ScarfTran or Jirachi or [insert top 30 threat here]. All pokemon that aren't Uber that a competent player might use you need to consider. The best way to cut it down to size is head off whole chains. However, that last bit is not relevant here, except that people who try to head off some threat category may simultaneously be able to beat Mence because of it.

 

[DJXO9]

That's like saying you won't set up PlotApe if you know the opponent has latias. Just by saying you won't be setting salamence up if you somehow mysteriously know the opponent has scarfrachi or skarmory, means that salamence has counters. Besides, virtually everything faster than mence will beat it (latias, infernape, jolteon), and everything slower will either status it (celebi, hell even rotom or blissey), or just out tank it (swampert, suicune). So mence hardly has any room to set up at all, especially with that 25% health stripped off, which makes even resisted attacks like heatran's fireblast impossible to switch into.

Why are we comparing Infernape to Salamence? Yes they have similar stat spreads but every single one of Salamences stats, besides speed is significantly higher than Infernape's. Each of Salamence's defense stats are 9 points higher, while his HP is a whopping 19 points higher. Salamence also has Intimidate. The difference in Speed is not very impressing as Salamence is able to boost his through DD, while Infernape is not. Infernape is still getting outsped by the same base 110's also. The only thing Salamence loses in the Speed is the tie with Base 100's, which is only a 50 / 50 shot. It also obviously is outsped by Infernape, but Infernape isn't doing much to Salamence without HP Ice, or if Mence already has a DD.

This conversation isn't about trying to prove that Mence is or isn't better than Infernape. Not only does Salamence have excellent offensive stats, its often overlooked defensive stats are fairly solid, especially when paired with Intimidate. You said it is difficult to set up with Salamence. It certainly is not. Unless I'm 100% sure that my opponent is going to use a Ground-type move or something that Salamence can easily come in on, I'm not switching it in to take a hit. I'm switching it in most likely after one of my mons have gone down, into something that Salamence resists, which includes a lot of different types.

You also made a list of pokemon that can beat Salamence, namely Latias, Infernape, and Jolteon. I for one am never going to switch a Latias in on Salamence, unless I have something out like Heatran, where it's obvious he's going to use Earthquake. I'm certainly not going to switch in Infernape, and Jolteon is taken down by just about every one of Mence's moves.

Another problem with Mence is that he can adapt to take on any mon very easily. You may argue that every mon can do that, but Salamence does not need to go out of his way to do so. For example the Classic MixMence with Draco Meteor, Brick Break, Fire Blast, and Roost. No pokemon can safely switch into that. The only pokemon off the top of my head that has a decent chance at surviving and forcing out Mence is Heat Proof Bronzong. And very few of those are ever around.

I'm done with this. I have better ways of spending my time.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I could say similar things of Lucario or Scizor or ScarfTran or Jirachi or [insert top 30 threat here].

But you really can't, because each has a reliable counter in the metagame. Salamence doesn't. It has checks for individual sets, but no counters, and no tell-tale signs the turn it switches in that it's using one set or another. I've explained this to death already, though, so I'm not going to press the matter if you won't listen to it.

All pokemon that aren't Uber that a competent player might use you need to consider.

Obviously.

 

[Aura Guardian]

And yet it hadn't been recently said. Some checks work against all sets of Mence, just like Gliscor beats Lucario, or [insert counter combo here]. Sure, Mence could surprise KO a check with a prediction, but so could a Lucario KO Gliscor with an HP Ice or an Ice Punch (or at least cripple). After Mence's checks are gone, it's smooth flying. However, it's smooth running for Lucario when Gliscor and other counters/checks are gone. So, yes, I could say it of Lucario/Scizor/etc.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Some checks work against all sets of Mence

Cresselia is all that comes to mind, and only if she walks in at 100% can she take any attack from any Mence and retaliate with the OHKO Ice Beam. Even if she uses Reflect, she's still 2HKO'd by +1 Outrage with SR. (First hits at 61-71.8%, second at half that from Reflect) MixMence still has a chance to 2HKO with DM after SR before Cress can Ice Beam, made far more likely if Cress has taken any prior damage at all.

The perfect health requirement for her to check all sets of Mence is kind of unrealistic. Cress likely isn't going to be your last revealed Pokemon if you use her.

but so could a Lucario KO Gliscor with an HP Ice or an Ice Punch (or at least cripple).

Not quite. SDLuke carrying Ice Punch loses Crunch, making bulky ghosts (Rotom-A / Dusknoir) perfect counters. Furthermore, Crunch is 4x more common in the metagame than Ice Punch for that last slot. Finally, scarf'd Rotom-h counters all possible sets of SDLuke no matter what it does.

Mence isn't like that. His move sets give him perfect coverage. Name a Pokemon and he smashes it. Maybe it's not a OHKO, but no matter what he does he hurts everything enough for his other teammates to finish the job if he can't.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Meanwhile, if Pokemon X is a counter for Y, but Y has only one or two other checks in the game, then Y can easily sweep if X is gone and the others are not there. If Lucario has one check on the opponent's team, Lucario will devastate the opponent once the check is gone. The same principle applies to Salamence.

 

[DJXO9]

Meanwhile, if Pokemon X is a counter for Y, but Y has only one or two other checks in the game, then Y can easily sweep if X is gone and the others are not there. If Lucario has one check on the opponent's team, Lucario will devastate the opponent once the check is gone. The same principle applies to Salamence.

You repeatedly mention pokemon that counter a pokemon, like Lucario, and say the same applies to Salamence, but you haven't once posted this pokemon that counters Salamence.

I know why though. There isn't one. There isn't a single pokemon that can come in on and counter both DD Mence and both of Mix Mence sets., without risking itself. It just isn't happening.

 

[Aura Guardian]

My saying "Pokemon X" and "Y" is just to generalize it for all Pokemon

It has been argued in this thread many times that "counter" and "check" are interchangeable. While I don't agree with that, I will say that it is not at all too hard to stop a Mence. Porygon2 can counter any Mence that doesn't have DM. Scizor can easily revenge, given LO + SR + SS. Any Max+ Speed Base 100 Scarfer can, at worst, tie with it. ScarfApe laughs at any +1 Max+ Speed Salamence. Any Ice Sharder (bar Smeargle) can easily stop Mence if it comes in on a resisted/innefective attack (not much), or on a DD, or revenge Mence. Mence is mostly guaranteed a MAXIMUM of two KOs if it is played well while it's checks are still in play. Skarmory laughs at anything Mence uses not named Fire Blast. If Mence is in outrage, Whirlwind or Brave Bird or something. Come in on the +1 LO Outrage, Roost, Whirlwind, or do something to force Mence out. Use a ScarfStarmie or a ScarfLatias and predict a DD or (for Latias) an Earthquake/Fire blast. Force Mence to use an attack that you can easily switch in on, or revenge. It doesn't matter. The strategy is what can take Mence down.

EDIT: I motion for a new poll to see how opinions stand now - or for us to be told how to modify our own vote (I won't but others might).

 

[Stylish Interval]

Just a note, but it is relatively easy to revenge kill a Salamence. You may think this is a dumb way to stop Salamence, but if the Pokemon which do it are relatively common (which quite a few are), then it shouldn't be considered that way. If by counter Aura Guardian means "Pokemon which can stop it's sweep," and isn't referring to it in the traditional way, then he is completely correct. If Scizor can stop Salamence from sweeping, then you need to get rid of it before you try and sweep in the same way you eliminate Gliscor before you let Lucario sweep.

The way most of you are thinking when you think about this is that all Pokemon switch into Salamence to threaten it. It's like you've forgotten all about strategy. If I know my Swampert is my best shot at taking care of Salamence, and I know that I can get by without another Pokemon, I'll send it out to take the damage and get Swampert in safely. In this way, Swampert has not come in with "perfect prediction" or taken any prior damage, as the majority of you are acting like it would. A player doesn't always just send in a Pokemon, but rather implies strategy that suits the current situation. That's all I've got to say for the moment.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Actually, I thought I said that others had been using "counter" like that, but I wasn't. My whole previous post was to give checks, or possible counters.

Continuing the KO fodder reasoning: If I have a Pokemon that can only barely survive a switch-in and is Paralyzed or something, or just plain low on health and revenge-KOable, I'd happily send it to scout Mence's attacks. With increased information, I'd happily begin to destroy Mence.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Just a note, but it is relatively easy to revenge kill a Salamence. You may think this is a dumb way to stop Salamence, but if the Pokemon which do it are relatively common (which quite a few are), then it shouldn't be considered that way. If by counter Aura Guardian means "Pokemon which can stop it's sweep," and isn't referring to it in the traditional way, then he is completely correct. If Scizor can stop Salamence from sweeping, then you need to get rid of it before you try and sweep in the same way you eliminate Gliscor before you let Lucario sweep.

The way most of you are thinking when you think about this is that all Pokemon switch into Salamence to threaten it. It's like you've forgotten all about strategy. If I know my Swampert is my best shot at taking care of Salamence, and I know that I can get by without another Pokemon, I'll send it out to take the damage and get Swampert in safely. In this way, Swampert has not come in with "perfect prediction" or taken any prior damage, as the majority of you are acting like it would. A player doesn't always just send in a Pokemon, but rather implies strategy that suits the current situation. That's all I've got to say for the moment.

If the only way you can beat a Pokemon is by letting it kill something and then revenging it, then it is definitely fitting of the support characteristic for being an Uber as it intentionally forces you to lose someone to beat it. The whole point of Pokemon is checking and countering an enemy. If you are unable to do that against a specific Pokemon, then it's too much for the OU metagame.

Just saying that it can be revenge killed isn't remotely adequate for proving that it's not Uber. Heck, every good team right now must have a way to revenge a Salamence, just in case it has set up and killed something on your team.

Mence is mostly guaranteed a MAXIMUM of two KOs if it is played well while it's checks are still in play.

2 out of 6 is a big deal. You're making it sound more and more like you're agreeing with me and not arguing against me.

And as for your check list.. I've seen them all listed before, and you keep listing them, and you don't seem to be understanding or listening to what I'm saying at all. I know those checks for specific sets. The point is that between two very popular Mence sets, there is no one global check (except max life, ice beam Cress, which is unrealistic and so uncommon its UU). That point, in itself, makes it a monster and able to on the mispredict shred an entire chunk of a team. That is definitely support characteristic if I've ever seen it.