I didn't bring up Rayquaza. I just tried to explain why people, as Jumpman16 told us, should not bring it up. Also, the characteristic specifically declares that it must be through most of the team and with little effort. You are the one who needs to review the characteristics. SR plus checks that force Mence out means that it takes quite a bit of effort to sweep with Mence. That is what disqualifies Mence from Uber.
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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?
- Thread starter IcyMan28
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I agree that Mence does not fall under the Offensive Characteristic because its easily revenged killed... but that's where the problem lies... he's easily revenged killed... by moves that don't really hurt other pokemon.
So lets look at the stuff that revenges Mence with little harm to themselves. CB Scizor, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Latias, Weavile, Mamoswine among others, but these are the ones that this thread is consistently bringing up. Now... Scizor has to use Bullet Punch, Scarf Jirachi has to use Iron Head / Ice Punch. ScarfLatias has to use Draco Meteor and ice shard for mamo/weavile. None of these are powerful moves by any means, and some of the pokemon are just not powerful (Weavile, Jirachi). Making them easy setup bait. Don't try to deny that the second you kill a Mence, a resist to whatever move you used will come in and attemp to set up, and more than likely get it done. This is where the Support Characteristic comes into play, as remember you have to sacrifice a pokemon to revenge Mence
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tl;dr mence fits the support charicteristic imo. test would be cool.
So lets look at the stuff that revenges Mence with little harm to themselves. CB Scizor, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Latias, Weavile, Mamoswine among others, but these are the ones that this thread is consistently bringing up. Now... Scizor has to use Bullet Punch, Scarf Jirachi has to use Iron Head / Ice Punch. ScarfLatias has to use Draco Meteor and ice shard for mamo/weavile. None of these are powerful moves by any means, and some of the pokemon are just not powerful (Weavile, Jirachi). Making them easy setup bait. Don't try to deny that the second you kill a Mence, a resist to whatever move you used will come in and attemp to set up, and more than likely get it done. This is where the Support Characteristic comes into play, as remember you have to sacrifice a pokemon to revenge Mence
This is why DD Mence + SD Luke is such a potent combo. SDLuke is just an example among others though, but Mence creates the most likely situation where Lucario will sweep. Gyarados, AgiliGross, Empoleon, SubCharge Magnezone ANYTHING that can set up on a steel type move can and will if DDMence is revenged. And due to DDMence bringing in Swampert and other bulky waters and OHKOing/Substantially damaging them, these pokemon are near impossible to stop after a DDMence rampage is over. So who cares if Mence can be revenged, the moves it is revenged by are weak enough for others to take advantage of e.e.
Um bullshit? How do we know that Mence hasn't caused every to have a reason to need SR / Checks? This is why a test would be nice.
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tl;dr mence fits the support charicteristic imo. test would be cool.
Yes, you sacrifice a Pokemon to revenge Salamence. But does the Salamence user choose? Can the Salamence user go "Oh they have a Lucario counter and I want to eliminate it."? No. The non-Salamence user decides which Pokemon they will sacrifice. If Salamence kills a 10% Magnezone that wasn't going to stop Lucario anyway, Salamence didn't support the sweeper at all.
Real quick, I'd like to welcome you to the world of revenge killing where you'll get set up on a lot. This is why in a lot of analysis' it says that a Pokemon has an easy time getting into a locked move and setting up. It's how it works. You trade the loss of the game for the opponent to have a free turn. Generally when you do it though, it's to make sure your team doesn't lose and has a chance at winning. So if you eliminate a Dragon Dance Salamence, why does it matter that your Pokemon is locked into a move? You just made sure you didn't lose!
Something I'd like to question you on: How can you call a Scizor Bullet Punch weak? How can you call a Latias Draco Meteor weak? It has the same power as Salamence. 140 BP from a Base 110 Special Attack stat. Iron Head can sometimes find Jirachi an extra turn to deal damage at no cost to it, so how can that be considered a weak attack? Especially with 80 base power (without STAB). Still pretty strong.
What I'd like you to do is tell me why it should go for support characteristic in a more detailed manner. Is it because it can KO so many Pokemon? Is it because it can do so much damage to so many Pokemon? Why should it be nominated for the suspect test? I really wouldn't care if I traded a useless Pokemon for your Salamence, which is something that can and will happen. The exchange almost makes your argument null, but maybe you can expand a bit on something I'm missing. I'm not saying it isn't suspect material for the Support reason, I'm just saying you've done a poor job of explaining why.
Real quick, I'd like to welcome you to the world of revenge killing where you'll get set up on a lot. This is why in a lot of analysis' it says that a Pokemon has an easy time getting into a locked move and setting up. It's how it works. You trade the loss of the game for the opponent to have a free turn. Generally when you do it though, it's to make sure your team doesn't lose and has a chance at winning. So if you eliminate a Dragon Dance Salamence, why does it matter that your Pokemon is locked into a move? You just made sure you didn't lose!
Something I'd like to question you on: How can you call a Scizor Bullet Punch weak? How can you call a Latias Draco Meteor weak? It has the same power as Salamence. 140 BP from a Base 110 Special Attack stat. Iron Head can sometimes find Jirachi an extra turn to deal damage at no cost to it, so how can that be considered a weak attack? Especially with 80 base power (without STAB). Still pretty strong.
What I'd like you to do is tell me why it should go for support characteristic in a more detailed manner. Is it because it can KO so many Pokemon? Is it because it can do so much damage to so many Pokemon? Why should it be nominated for the suspect test? I really wouldn't care if I traded a useless Pokemon for your Salamence, which is something that can and will happen. The exchange almost makes your argument null, but maybe you can expand a bit on something I'm missing. I'm not saying it isn't suspect material for the Support reason, I'm just saying you've done a poor job of explaining why.
Well... it has to use draco meteor on Mence, and after that a -2 Draco Meteor isn't doing much at all. Its not that Scizor's bullet punch is weak... its just so easily resisted in this metagame that it seems weak once you're getting set up and swept by X because Y was killed by Mence.
I thought I did a decent enough job of explaining that Mence kills stuff, revenge killers make it easy for something else to set up and sweep, taking advantage of what mence killed.
meh its why i'm not in Policy Review =] but I do know that if there's a poke that deserves a test, its Mence.
I thought I did a decent enough job of explaining that Mence kills stuff, revenge killers make it easy for something else to set up and sweep, taking advantage of what mence killed.
meh its why i'm not in Policy Review =] but I do know that if there's a poke that deserves a test, its Mence.
Arguments that show it is a game of predicition don't explain why it shouldn't be tested; in fact, the opposite. Any "even" prediction game is biased in favour of the attacking player. Since most of the prediction-fight arguments are about predicting what attack Mence will use, it's actually an argument FOR testing.
This is a totally unqualified statement, and looks ridiculous when the evidence presented in this thread suggests that the defending player needs perfect prediction to not get destroyed, and the Mence player justs need to make the not-worst prediction.
The other thread being the one in the policy discussion? Where not everyone can post?
Also, the "It's been ages, if it's only a problem now it can't be broken" is a terrible argument. For a start, the testing processes take a while, and something has been under test for almost that entire time. Also, there is a remarkable level of bureaucracy in any kind of rules administration assessment, so a delay of a year (or more) is not to be unexpected.
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