Sally-mence? - An OU Warstory

Hello everybody! Through lurking, I'm aware of the current metagame and most popular Pokemon sets, but it's been a long time since I've actually battled on Shoddy, and an even longer time since I've written a war-story. While playing I happened to come across my very good friend Fishyman, who incidentally was also away from the Pokemon battling scene for a while too. We somehow ended up going against each other, and battled one of the most intense battles that we've ever had in a long time.

To cut a long story short, here is the battle I had with Fishyman. Like my previous warstory with Fishyman (long time ago), this story will have both of our comments.



My battle comments will be in purple, Fishyman's in green.
Leftovers and Sandstorm damage have been omited.
Jirachi, Gyarados, Machamp, Gliscor, Gengar, and Vaporeon all have leftovers.

Angel Diva sent out Jirachi.
Fishyman sent out Heatran.

Ok, so it's a bad matchup for me right at the beginning. Jirachi won't like eating a STAB fire attack, so I'll switch to Tyranitar to set up a sandstorm. My T-tar is careful, and can take Earth Powers well.

I lead with Heatran, and straight away I am in a favorable matchup. I highly double Angel Diva will trick a choice scarf onto Heatran who could also be scarfed(mine isn't). Anyway, Jirachi is sure to switch, so I get to set Stealth Rock first turn.

Angel Diva switched in Tyranitar.
Heatran used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around Angel Diva's team.

I am banded, and throwing out banded EQs isn't exactly the smartest move to do. Since Stone Edge has STAB and is neutral on Heatran in case it stays in, I choose Stone Edge.

Scarf-tars seem to be the most abundant T-tars around. I won't know that T-tar has a scarf, but no point letting Heatran take unnecessary damage from an obvious EQ. For that, I go to Gliscor.

Fishyman switched in Gliscor.
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
Tyranitar's attack missed!

Well, I suppose Crunch would've been the better option as Stone Edge's less than perfect accuracy bites me. Seeing an obvious EQ coming, I take an opportunity to send out MixMence to punch some holes in Fishyman's team.

I suppose EQ was too obvious there, but luckily Stone Edge missed. Time to force it out with my own EQ.

Angel Diva switched in Salamence.
Pointed Stones dug into Salamence.
Salamence's Intimidate cut Gliscor's attack.
Gliscor used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Salamence.

Time to poke a hole into Fishyman's team with Draco Meteor. And if he sends out Heatran, I can always EQ it to death afterwards.

Damn! Salamence is now in battle, and my Gliscor can't do anything to it. Salamence did show face rather early, so I'm going to assume MixMence. Of course I could risk a DD up, but if that's the case, I'll force it to Outrage and then revenge with either Heatran or Metagross.

Fishyman switched in Heatran.
Salamence used Draco Meteor.
It's not very effective.
Heatran lost 24% of its health.
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
Salamence's special attack greatly fell.

As mentioned before, Heatran came out. I could've used EQ on the switch, but didn't want to risk Gliscor staying in and then eating Stone Edge or Ice Fang. Anyway, eat Earthquake, Heatran!

And my guess is right. Her Salamence is indeed MixMence, and my Heatran is the perfect stop to its rampage, even if it means Heatran dying in the process. Can Heatran survive an EQ with a Shuca Berry?

Salamence used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
The Shuca Berry weakened Earthquake's power.
Heatran lost 65% of its health.
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
Heatran used Explosion.
Salamence lost 55% of its health.
Heatran and Salamence fainted.

I didn't count on Heatran having a Shuca Berry, which was a bad call, seeing as its the most common item on a lead-Tran. Oh well, no more Heatran means that Jirachi can come back to set up Stealth Rock.

Angel Diva sent out Jirachi.
Fishyman sent out Gliscor.
Pointed stones dug into Jirachi.

Once again, another unfavorable matchup for me. I doubt Iron Head is going to hurt much. Can't risk Jirachi taking a STAB EQ. I'll go to Gyarados who's almost always a good switch-in to Gliscor.

Jirachi eh? I thought so. Still, it might have Ice Punch, and Jirachi is faster than Gliscor. Vaporeon resists Ice Punch, and Iron Head too if she decides to use it so...

Angel Diva switched in Gyarados.
Fishyman switched in Vaporeon.
Pointed stones dug into Gyarados.
Gyarados' Intimidate cut Vaporeon's attack.

A double switch occurs, although I'm not really sure why he'd risk Vaporeon being tricked a Choice Scarf as Jirachi's Leftovers haven't taken effect yet. But anyway, this means Gyarados is now in a bad position. Vaporeon might have HP Electric, so no point taunting. I'm pretty sure Jirachi can easily shrug it off any non-STAB attack Vaporeon throws my way.

Turns out to be a double switch which is to my advantage. My Vaporeon doesn't have HP Electric, but is a toxic-staller. Leftovers noted on Gyarados means there should be Taunt, but I can bluff HP-Electric. Either way, I'll Toxic to poison whoever that comes in.

Angel Diva switched in Jirachi.
Pointed stones dug into Jirachi.
Vaporeon used Toxic.
It doesn't affect Jirachi.

Well, Toxic is even better than HP Electric for Jirachi meaning I take no damage! Finally, a turn to set up Stealth Rock.

I see leftovers recovery. So it means Jirachi is likely to be a wish-supporter with little speed EVs and highly unlikely to have Ice Punch. This means...

Fishyman switched in Gliscor.
Jirachi used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around Fishyman's team.

Time for Gyarados to get back in, although Stealth Rock damage is starting to rack up. It's do or die for Gyara.

Gliscor is out. Now to poison the obvious Gyarados switch-in then stall it out with Vaporeon.

Angel Diva switched in Gyarados.
Pointed stones dug into Gyarados.
Gyarados' Intimidate cut Gliscor's attack.
Gliscor used Toxic.
Gyarados was badly poisoned.
Gyarados is hurt by poison.

Gyarados gets poisoned by Gliscor. Now that I know Vaporeon is out there, I could throw up a DD. However, a misplay caused me to do something else instead.

In comes Vaporeon to stall out Gyarados' remaining HP.

Fishyman switched in Vaporeon.
Pointed stones dug into Vaporeon.
Gyarados used Stone Edge.
Gyarados' attack missed!
Gyarados is hurt by poison.

I used Stone Edge when I could've used DD, and to add insult to injury, my attack missed! My Gyarados is pretty much useless now, and Vaporeon will probably stall me to death, and might just finish me off with Surf if I taunt it. However, Intimidate means Gyarados still makes very good death fodder later on. Time to cause some hax of my own.

For some odd reason, Gyarados didn't dance up. Because of that, there's no way that this Gyarados is going to knock me out. Even with Taunt, I'll just throw surfs at it if it comes down to that.

Angel Diva switched in Machamp.
Pointed stones dug into Machamp.
Vaporeon used Protect.

Alright, Machamp got in with minimal harm. Now I could try to Dynamic-punch and confuse Vaporeon. But Gliscor is still out there, and poses a major threat to my end-game sweeper Jolteon. Fishyman could Protect a second time to scout my Ice Punch, but that means Vaporeon might get confused for no reason. So, Ice Punch it is for the expected Gliscor switch-in.

I hate Machamp and Dynamic-punch's confusion, and then there's Payback, which'll destroy Gengar on the switch should she predict a Ghost coming in. Instead, I'll turn to Gliscor, who resists Dynamic-punch as well as taking crappy damage from non-STAB Payback.

Fishyman switched in Gliscor.
Pointed stones dug into Gliscor.
Machamp used Ice Punch.
It's super effective!
Gliscor lost 87% of its health.
Gliscor fainted.

Alright! My risk paid off, and Gliscor is down for the count!

Damn! I totally forgot about Ice Punch which cost Gliscor his life. Nice prediction by Angel Diva! Anyway, Gengar can now come in unharmed.

Fishyman sent out Gengar.
Pointed stones dug into Gengar.

Gengar is out, and will probably try to take out Machamp. However, Shadow Ball is 2HKO on Machamp at best, and Payback OHKOs, so I'll stay in.

This is a nice opportunity for Gengar to set-up a Sub, allowing me to scout for Angel Diva's responses to Gengar.

Gengar used Substitute.
Gengar created a Substitute.
Machamp used Payback.
It's super-effective!
Gengar's substitute faded.

Well, that works too. But I doubt Gengar will try to lower his HP again, and my let Machamp take unnecessary damage when I have T-tar. I run careful CBTar, and seeing leftovers, Gengar will definitely not OHKO with Focus Blast unless he gets a crit.

This is getting nowhere. I'll just Shadow Ball Machamp in order to do as much damage as possible.

Angel Diva switched in Tyranitar.
Pointed stones dug into Tyranitar.
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
It's not every effective.
Tyranitar lost 7% of its health.

Die, Gengar!

Damn, I totally forgot Angel Diva still has a T-tar. I can only hope it's not scarfed, and try to hopefully hit with Focus Blast.

Gengar used Focus Blast.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 69% of its health.
Tyranitar used Pursuit.
It's super effective!
Gengar lost 63% of its health.
Gengar fainted.

So, it turns out it wasn't scarfed after all, but extremely tanky instead. Still, absence of Leftovers or Life Orb means it's probably banded, and stuck on Pursuit, which means my DDmence can come in perfectly safely.

Fishyman sent out Salamence.
Pointed Stones dug into Salamence.
Salamence's Intimidate cut Tyranitar's attack.

Oh no! I should've used Crunch instead. Now I'm stuck on Pursuit, and going to give Salamence a free turn to dance. However, Gyarados is still barely alive, and as mentioned, Intimidate would make it good death fodder to soften Salamence's attacks.

Salamence gets out a dance. Now it's time to sweep!

Angel Diva switched in Gyarados.
Pointed stones dug into Gyarados.
Gyarados' Intimidate cut Salamence's attack.
Salamence used Dragon Dance.
Salamence's attack and speed rose.
Gyarados is hurt by poison.
Gyarados fainted.

With no attack boost, I'm pretty sure Machamp can survive an Outrage now. Even if he doesn't, Salamence will still be forced to Outrage, and I can then kill with Jirachi.

Gyarados succumbs to poison, which means I don't have to hurt myself with Life Orb this turn!

Angel Diva sent out Machamp.
Pointed stones dug into Machamp.
Salamence used Outrage.
Salamence went on an Outrage!
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
Machamp lost 85% of its health.
Machamp used Ice Punch.
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 65% of its health.
Salamence fainted.

Machamp barely survives Outrage, but I'm glad that it did, which means that Jirachi doesn't have to take unnecessary damage.

What?! Machamp survived?! After checking back the log, I saw the reason Machamp survived. Gyarados' Intimidate. Anyway, I still have Agi-gross left, and it should be able to sweep through Angel Diva's remaining team.

Fishyman switched in Metagross.
Pointed stones dug into Metagross.

Metagross used Earthquake.
Machamp fainted.
Metagross lost 10% of its health.

Oh no! With Gyarados dead, I don't really have any other counter to Metagross. It's not like Machamp can switch back in anyway due to SR, so goodbye Machamp. You did well in killing Gliscor and Salamence.
My best response left is with Jirachi, so I'll try to hax Metagross to death.

I could actually speed myself up. But fact remains is that Machamp can still annoy with Dynamic-Punch even at 2%, so no point risking that happening.

Angel Diva sent out Jirachi.
Jirachi used Thunder Wave.
Metagross is paralyzed. It may not attack.
Metagross used Earthquake
It's super-effective!
Jirachi lost 78% of its health.
Metagross lost 10% of its health

Jirachi used Iron Head
It's not very effective (-10%)
Metagross flinched!

Jirachi used Iron Head
It's not very effective (-11%)
Metagross is paralyzed! It can't move.

Jirachi used Iron Head
it's not very effective (-9%)
Metagross used Earthquake.
Metagross lost 10% of its health
Jirachi fainted.


I succeeded in paralyzing Metagross, and stalling for 3 more turns. Time to throw out T-tar as death fodder to force more Life Orb damage in order to get it into kill range for Jolteon's bolt.

Jirachi is annoying as hell to face. Probably up there with Machamp, Breloom, and Togekiss as my most hated opponents. Anyway, eventually hax fails to proc and I end up killing that annoying thing.

Angel Diva sent out Tyranitar.
Pointed stones dug into Tyranitar.
Tyranitar fainted.

Ok, forgot that T-tar is also in KO range of Stealth Rock. Anyway, Metagross should be in KO range of Jolteon's bolt.

I wonder what's Angel Diva's last Pokemon. Hopefully it's something Vaporeon can stall away.

Angel Diva sent out Jolteon
Pointed stones dug into Jolteon
Jolteon used Thunderbolt
Metagross lost 43% of its health
Metagross fainted

Fishyman sent out Vaporeon
Pointed stones dug into Vaporeon
Jolteon used Thunderbolt
It's super effective
Vaporeon fainted.
Angel Diva wins

And Jolteon seals victory for the team.

Jolteon, another Pokemon that tends to cause me a lot of trouble. Oh well, it was a good match, we all say our 'gg's and that is that! ;)

Hits:
Machamp, for killing 2 Pokemon, especially Gliscor.
Gyarados, for being great death fodder in the game! :P
Jolteon, for sweeping.
Shuca-tran for surviving EQ and stopping Salamence in its tracks.

Misses:
Misplays with Gyarados and possibly Vaporeon and Gengar too.
Both Salamences didn't really get their job done. Still think he's uber? (I'm on the fence here, btw.)
 
Good read. Pictures weren't entirely necessary, but would have helped a bit. The comments were good and it was pretty interesting and easy to read.
 
Clearly two smart players from great plays either side.
Just like to highlight one move from your opponent. Wow to sense something like that is just fantastic calling the mixmence as it was shown early in game as to the late DD end game sweeper was genius.

Great Warstory!

4.5/5

Damn! Salamence is now in battle, and my Gliscor can't do anything to it. Salamence did show face rather early, so I'm going to assume MixMence. Of course I could risk a DD up, but if that's the case, I'll force it to Outrage and then revenge with either Heatran or Metagross.
 
This battle definitely did not show Mences brokeness... I thought mence was always a free kill?

Enjoyable battle and story. That ttar is neat and the use of gyarados as smart, useful death fodder showed great thinking ahead.
 
Good warstory. I felt like it showed Mence wasn't that broken, but thats just me.

also I feel like it proves Stone Edge is the most overrated move ever.

edit: also O_O @ Machamp living outrage.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
That's because mence isn't broken, and this warstory pretty much showed what mence really is.

Easily played around, and absolutely screwed by death fodder. Against good players with teams built to play the game of attrition with smart sacrificing (after having achieving set goals), Salamence is "ok" at best, plain bad at worst.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
That's because mence isn't broken, and this warstory pretty much showed what mence really is.

Easily played around, and absolutely screwed by death fodder. Against good players with teams built to play the game of attrition with smart sacrificing (after having achieving set goals), Salamence is "ok" at best, plain bad at worst.
Honestly, that is really bad logic and I'm glad people like you don't get to influence tiering decisions.

We saw two instances in which Pokemon had to sacrifice themselves to beat Salamence, both of which are easily prevented with a switch. Explosion killing Salamence doesn't make it balanced. Using a nearly-dead Pokemon's Intimidate to nullify a DD's attack boost doesn't mean Salamence isn't destroying teams on a regular basis. This battle does not gage Salamence's tiering position in any way, and it definitely doesn't refute the years of experience players have accrued to determine that it was indeed overpowering the standard metagame.
 
Two things I found interesting about the warstory, which shows more about Salamence than some would make you believe.

1. A player had a Heatran switch in on a Draco Meteor. That should have been a red flag for the Salamence player, especially since it was not known at the time what set Heatran was running. Most lead Heatrans use Shuca Berry, but there's also a fair number that run Scarf, which would have destroyed Salamence with Dragon Pulse. With those being the most common sets, Salamence was sacrificied needlessly based on the information known.

2. Machamp was switched in onto Salamence at near full health, another red flag. It must have been sure that it could survive the Outrage and kill it back. Also, it's not rocket science to know that Machamp was packing Ice Punch, the Machamp in question used it to OHKO the player's Gliscor. Also, Intimidate was used to soften the blow, which may have necessitated a quick calculation that was probably left out.

In both cases, Salamence was very poorly played and sacrificed needlessly. If either player saved their Salamence for a second round, the game could have ended completely differently.

Also, every team doesn't have Gyarados as death fodder to soften Salamence's blows. If the sacrificed pokemon was not an intimidator, Salamence would have swept.


Good warstory, I liked it, but Salamence was wasted. 7/10
 

Conflict

is the 9th Smogon Classic Winneris a Three-Time Past SPL Championis the defending GSC Circuit Champion
World Defender
Nice warstory.

I just wondering a bit though about this thingie:

Fishyman switched in Heatran.
Salamence used Draco Meteor.
It's not very effective.
Heatran lost 24% of its health.
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
Salamence's special attack greatly fell.
How could Mixmences Draco Meteor only deal 24% to Heatran? Against the average Shucaleadtran Draco Meteor from Mixmence deals 42,5% minimum.

This Heatran must be running an 252 Hp/252 SDef Spread with a Calm Nature to only take 24% from Draco Meteor. This seems a bit weird to me, as Speed is very crucial in the Leadposition against certain things.

Oh and funny fact: If this Mence was an DD-Mence it would have swept right trough your opponent....
 
Thanks for the positive comments!

@Baldafor
Resist berries have always been the bane of my sweepers' existence, that I'll admit. I donno why, but for some reason it's always something I never take into account, like Shuca-tran and Shuca/OccaGross.
Of course, Heatran could've been scarfed, but it's another one of those things I take for granted that nobody wants to lock themselves on Stealth Rock without a way to trick away their scarf, that's why I wouldn't expect a scarf.
In any case, I suppose I could've gone to T-tar to eat the explosion or dragon pulse. But it also means Salamence take more SR damage. Oh well...

Gyarados, for the most part, played its role in stopping DD-mence's sweep. And even if I had no Gyarados to sacrifice, Salamence will still be forced to Outrage to kill Machamp(fact that it has Ice Punch is irrelevant though, Stone Edge still kills), at that point I'll preserve Machamp by bringing Jirachi in on Outrage. At worse, Jirachi perishes, but it'll have paralyzed Salamence, meaning it won't continue sweeping.
My mistake with Pursuit vs Crunch was the main reason 'Mence got a DD up. I doubt 'Mence will DD if I'm locked on Crunch.

And yea, I too was very surprised at the damage Draco Meteor did to Heatran. I suppose not everybody runs -sp def, and might've possibly run Sp Def ev's too! Then again, very few people play careful CB-Tar too!
 
Excellent game and write up, thanks for the explainations and clarifications!

Berries are really underrated, I must admit.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
I love how easily some random anecdotal evidence sways the minds of others. One match does not define the entire game. Two people do not define all Salamence users.

Other than the Salamence misplays it was an interesting warstory, with an awesome subplot of old friends coming together to have another great match.

8/10
 
That's because mence isn't broken, and this warstory pretty much showed what mence really is.

Easily played around, and absolutely screwed by death fodder. Against good players with teams built to play the game of attrition with smart sacrificing (after having achieving set goals), Salamence is "ok" at best, plain bad at worst.
kinda off topic, but i agree with this.

Anyway the warstory was a'ight. Presentation was kinda lacking imo but the battle was decent and commentary was sufficient.
 
Other than the lack of percentage, this was a great warstory and was quite fun to read. I always love double commentary warstories and this one does it right.

8.1/10
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
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Honestly, that is really bad logic and I'm glad people like you don't get to influence tiering decisions.

We saw two instances in which Pokemon had to sacrifice themselves to beat Salamence, both of which are easily prevented with a switch. Explosion killing Salamence doesn't make it balanced. Using a nearly-dead Pokemon's Intimidate to nullify a DD's attack boost doesn't mean Salamence isn't destroying teams on a regular basis. This battle does not gage Salamence's tiering position in any way, and it definitely doesn't refute the years of experience players have accrued to determine that it was indeed overpowering the standard metagame.
Kind of funny as I was the one who started the thread discussion in PR suggesting we have a faster system (which led to the decision to make a council) in the first place. [/gloat]

In reality, a pokemon's tiering is completely subjective-- it comes down to nothing but opinion, that of the broader majority influencing that of those who will actually vote on tiering decisions.

In the broader scope of things, it really doesn't matter where Mence gets placed (especially with B&W coming out in September, which will require a re-examination of it anyway)-- I simply prefer a meta with than without. Am I able to state opinions/arguments regarding that fact that can/will influence the broader masses and thus possibly the opinions of those who may be on the council?

Yeah.

Also you're not the only one with years of experience buddy.

Also it's obvious that a single warstory/battle proves nothing. That is obvious to the point where it need not be re-iterated (or re-iterating that fact makes one seem dull). You'll notice I avoid the word "prove," but rather "shows." This battle is simply illustrative of how I see Salamence's general performance.[/off-topic]

Since I didn't comment on the warstory itself yet-- let me just add in that this was very well done. It's nice to see all these new warstories written by folks who actually know what they're doing. It seems latias' banning provided a lot of positive stimulus.

Amazing when considering how poor the standard for warstories had become. I mean, it's embarrassing to look at archive and still see one of mine on the first page, considering I'd wrote it like over a year ago.

Great stuff guyz, thanks for sharing.
 
Good warstory, I'm still on the fence about mence, but this shows that at the very least, the players that use salamence know how to defeat it.
 

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