Ability Sand Veil + Snow Cloak - Balanced now?

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's always been that way. For all intents and purpose, the top <1% of battlers determine the metagame for us (before it was just an elite fraternity of people who started this site but now anyone can vote in Suspect Testing if they're good enough). Most of the time these are reasonably intelligent people too, you can read the posts in Suspect Testing for the mentality of the best battlers.

Evasion is banned cause no one wants to play that metagame lol.
Then we agree, because that's exactly what I was getting at.
 
If you believe this game is not about dice rolls, please direct your attention to the Prankster ability.

Haven't got priority left? Prankster Riolu's Copycat Roar ends you.
Haven't got an Own Tempo mon? Murkrow, Liepard and Klefki all Foul Play you to oblivion. Even with an Own Tempo mon you'll probably be wrecked.
Have a stealth rock user? The very interesting Assist-Roar team tactic will sort you out very quickly.
FYI, in X/Y Copycat can no longer copy Roar/Whirlwind.

I think something similar happened to Assist, but I'm not sure.
 
Evasion is banned cause no one wants to play that metagame lol.
So the general consensus is that rather than these abilities being banned because they are difficult to counter (which may or may not be true), they are banned because they aren't fun to play with or against?
 
Critical hits are an inherent aspect in the game. Any pokemon can do a critical hit. Next, there is also the fact that the problem with evasion is that it has no counter. It relies on luck MORE than critical hits. Smogon's policy is to ban both entities that are overpowered AND entities that are blatantly detrimental to the entire game. They ban moves, abilities, pokemon, and items NOT inherent aspects in the game like crits. There is a difference here.

Next, your claim about making a different game than that of gamefreak's is plausible. However you make a naturalist fallacy. Just because something is a certain way doesn't mean it ought to be that way.
1. Nearly any pokemon can learn Double Team, and all pokemon can be passed evasion. How exactly doesn't it have a counter? Stat increases can always be Whirlwind/Roar/Haze'd away. 2 of those don't even miss anymore.
2. Accuracy in general is an inherent aspect of the game. Moves miss. Evasion makes it happen more.
3. Any pokemon using a move can miss, even the moves with perfect accuracy (Aura Sphere) can miss due to immunities. There are abilities and moves that prevent critical hits also, just no one uses them.
4. "Blatently detrimental" is purely opinion-based. If we were to ban everything we don't "like" based on a simple majority vote, the game wouldn't even be close to the original. Knights in chess are OP, so replace em with pawns. Wow, what a great game!
5. If evasion isn't an inherent part of the game, why does Garchomp get Sand Veil?

6. Really, the most important thing is that Smogon's doesn't matter at all compared to other competitive games. We all play a competitive game here with none of the advantages of actually winning anything. I 6v0'd the world, I get a pat on the back and a forum icon. If we all played the game according to Nintendo's rules, at least it would be considered practice for something that you can actually win and get proper accolades for. I appreciate that there is at least a double's metagame section, but even that subforum is not in the official format of 4v4. Enjoyment is one thing, but why play Smogon tier pokemon when I could play another competitive game and actually win something?
 
So the general consensus is that rather than these abilities being banned because they are difficult to counter (which may or may not be true), they are banned because they aren't fun to play with or against?
I wouldn't really use the word "fun", I think "enjoyable" is closer to the actual sentiment.
 
FYI, in X/Y Copycat can no longer copy Roar/Whirlwind.

I think something similar happened to Assist, but I'm not sure.
This is true. Neither Assist or Copycat can call phasing moves anymore-- which essentially does invalidate two of the arguments. But the SwagPlay is still the greatest dice roll strategy in the game.
 
Baldafor: I don't think you get the point at all. You can't just make a simple ban or two and get rid of critical hits. Critical hits are an inherent mechanic that cannot be removed without actually altering the game itself. Banning evasion inducing moves, abilities, and items does not make this a different game anymore than Nintendo banning pixies, "uber" legends, Sky Drop, and Chatter does. These bans can be easily imitated in a cartridge battle just by agreeing with your opponent to not use the evasion moves, abilities, and items. They are not an inherent part of the game that cannot be avoided. Meanwhile, there is literally no way to remove critical hits from a cartridge match without some serious hacking. Removing those would actually change the game in a way that cannot actually be done legally, and so you would really be playing a different game altogether.

Actually, it's kinda funny how you gave this little speech about Smogon banning things until we're not even playing the same game anymore (when that's not even remotely true), and then you try to justify a ban that actually would manipulate an inherent game mechanic and essentially create a whole new game.
 
Nobody can say for sure it'd be over-centralising because we don't play with evasion. Note that accuracy lowering moves are legal. When was the last time you saw some mon flinging Mud-Slap your way?
Point is, that while there would be some things that would thrive in a metagame with evasion unbanned (Minimize Blissey would go uber tbh), most Pokemon wouldn't waste a moveslot to make themselves more evasive, and there are so many workarounds that it's not even funny. They say that people fear what they don't know and frankly most people don't know evasion all that well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nobody can say for sure it'd be over-centralising because we don't play with evasion. Note that accuracy lowering moves are legal. When was the last time you saw some mon flinging Mud-Slap your way?
Point is, that while there would be some things that would thrive in a metagame with evasion unbanned (Minimize Blissey would go uber tbh), most Pokemon wouldn't waste a moveslot to make themselves more evasive, and there are so many workarounds that it's not even funny. They say that people fear what they don't know and frankly most people don't know evasion all that well.
Sorry, but comparing accuracy lowering moves to evade increasing move just shows that you don't really have much idea what you're talking about.

Anyway, with the boost to phazing, we now have moves that counter minimize/double team/sand veil 100% AND are decent outside of this(unlikely for example 100%-hit-moves or keen eye or foresight or some shit move like that), so I have to admit that I think the argument it's uncounterable doesn't really hold anymore.
So I think unbanning Sand Veil is reasonable. It's just otwo pokemon that realistically can abuse it, and both are definitely and obviously not broken nor even exceptionally hard to deal with.

Nevertheless, I'm against unbanning double team or minimize because they can't possibly improve the metagame even in theory, much less in practice. It just brings in even more luck into the game than what already is.
 
Can I just say that the major difference between accuracy modifiers and evasion modifiers is that the opponent has control over the former? Unlike evasion modifiers, which affect the Pokemon using it, the Pokemon who is getting his accuracy reduced can simply switch out and reset the accuracy loss. The opponent's evasion gain, by contrast, is permanent until the opponent switches out, making it much more difficult to play around and, consequently, much more luck based, because you're literally sitting their twiddling your thumbs praying that you hit the opponent with something, anything, and with any Pokemon rather than being able to weigh your options and say "okay, so, I have lost --% accuracy on all of my moves against this Pokemon, basically, and I can either switch out to something that can also deal with it and then bring back the other thing in later should I fail, or stay in and toss the coin as to whether or not I hit it".

That is a huge difference.
 
I dislike evasion as much as the next person, but I honestly can't think of a GOOD reason to not allow these two abilities at the bare minimum. They are far from uncounterable, and they have a time limit. There are plenty of equally annoying strategies that are legal and not dominating. Paraflinch was one. Hazard phazing is another. It shouldn't be a forced ban if it's not necessary. At least even with Double Team you still have the potential of hitting them while they are setting up. Copycat Roar however was almost impossible to overcome with even fewer counters to it. There have always been means of countering evasion. Phazing, early Toxic, 100% accuracy moves, set up alongside them (they can boost evasion all they want because it's only going to take one +4 attack from me to take you out). Anything with Red Card. You can't say something is broken if your counter to it died during the match. You could say the same thing if your priority user is gone and you can't stop a sweep. Or if your weather setter died when there's is still alive. It means you got played around. No team is prepared for everything, and it's not fair to keep asking to ban the moves and abilities in general that you happen to struggle with. Something is only really broken when you CAN'T counter it.

Again, I would much rather NOT play with evasion. Certainly Double Team/Minimize. But I simply can't rationalize keeping, particularly, those two abilities banned. Not to mention what does it add, 10% evasion? That's WAY better than being paralyzed, confused, frozen, asleep, flinched, or even just using Fire Blast against ANYthing!
This is the only post people should be responding to.


This thread needs to stop derailing into a discussion about evasion in general, as I already made a thread about that ages ago and it got locked because it degenerated down to lunacy. If this thread is to stay open, it'll need to address THE TOPIC, which are the TWO ABILITIES IN QUESTION ONLY, not evasion in general.
 
Okay. Last post I'm making in this thread now. So here it is, everything that cures and causes evasion. Ready?

List of stuff that cares not about evasion:


Meanwhile the evasion causing stuff:


YEAH EVASION IS SUCH AN UNFAIR THING BAN IT ALL FOREVER
You forgot about Moody (can boost Accuracy/Evasion) but no one likes Moody so I can forgive that.

AAAAAANYWAY back on topic, I do believe that Snow Cloak/Sand Veil are fine now that Weather is nerfed. This would also allow mons like, say. Glaceon and Frosslass to finally have some presence in the metagame. (Hail sucks, I know, but hey.)
 
Something I feel I must point out: Evasion moves were actually legal in Ubers at the end of Gen 5. However, I rarely saw them being used and few people higher than 1500 rating were actually doing it because of its inconsistency. If you evaded all of your opponent's moves, you set up just fine, but if you took even one hit from a powerful Uber, you lost your Pokemon.

Now Ubers is obviously quite a bit different than OU (mostly because half of the metagame could run a perfectly accurate Thunder) and not everything good in Ubers is a good idea in OU (Arceus should definitely not be allowed, etc.), but I'm don't think anyone is seriously considering allowing Evasion MOVES into OU. These Abilities only work if a certain weather is up and you can't stack them. So we have to consider a couple things when banning them:

1. Is letting a Pokemon with these Abilities (Garchomp) get an extra hit off broken?
2. Are Sub+Sand Veil/Snow Cloak strategies actually worth using?
3. Should we ban these Abilities specifically when only one Pokemon (Garchomp) is actually broken with the Ability?

For the third one, we actually sort of did have that happen in Gen 5 because only Garchomp came back, though it did remove the ban on Snow Warning in UU.
 
I just want to be able to use my perfect shiny Glaceon from Gen 4 :(
Oh yeah that's actually another thing. Banning Sand Veil and Snow Cloak means that quite a few Pokemon can't use any Gen 3 or 4 exclusive moves. I don't think any of them miss out on anything particularly good, but it's still something to think about.
 
While Snow Cloak/ Sand Veil may be viable now, SubSalac or evasion spam Garchomp is not. It kills me to say this since Garchomp is my all time favorite Pokemon but if the Land Shark Pokemon gives up even one moveslot for Sub or Swords Dance, it will be horribly walled by Togekiss or Ferrothrorn. Garchomp now needs all of its moveslots to run Outrage or Dragon Claw/ EQ/ Stone Edge/ Fire Fang, Fire Blast, or Swords Dance. Because the combination of Stone Edge and Fire Fang/Blast is crucial for Garchomp, he can't really risk giving up a move to abuse the slight evasion boost.

To everyone who thinks this thread is about allowing Double Team or Minimize, shut up and read the OP or gtfo. We are not talking about letting plays get +6 evasion beind a sub (if that happens to you, you obviously can't play anyway) but about 2 abilities that at best will last 4-7 turns. The one Pokemon (Garchomp) that can abuse these abilities has more checks than ever before and has terrible defensive synergy with Ttar or Hippowdon that prevents it from 100% safely switching in right after sand is up.

I personally do not like evasion moves, but I can't think of a good argument against Snow Cloak or Sand Veil. Everyone who thinks that its okay to argue about Double Tam or Minimize in OU needs to get their heads out of their asses and rest assured that it won't be in OU.

Now, onto the actual topic?
 
Even though they'll only last a limited amount of time it could still result in something like this:

Opponent is starting to set up a sub, then boosts its attack/anything else. You miss with your attack because of the abilities. And then you get swept, unless you have a fully in tact phazer that can withstand the incoming boosted hit.

Now even though the Sand/Hail was only there for a little bit it'll still matter so much and shits on your face.

Missing 100% accurate moves is hell. Bright Powder/Lax Incense is bad enough (I don't know why this haxy stuff is even allowed).

But then again... flinches and normal misses from moves without 100% accuracy, and secondary effects and basically everything is luck based as well... we come to the conclusion that Pokemon is just too much luck based and no matter what we do, it'll always be like that. Unless we ban 95 % of the game.

The only thing I want Sand Veil unbanned for is being able to use Cacturne in a Sand team since it won't take damage with it, but having to deal with such haxy stuff (there will be people trying to use it, since it can be so rewarding) would be so stupid/annoying/frustrating...
 
So, on topic, who would be the best abuser anyway? Imo it's Mamoswine because his STABs are better than chomps, and everyone has 2 or 3 pokemon that can handle a hit from garchomp, but mamoswine can just devestate almost anything. However, this requires having an Abomosnow on you're team...

I like the ban. Evasion is banned, Moody is banned, and sand/snow cloak is banned. It tells you right away what the culture is around here, and you know for sure that the only reason you will EVER miss is if your stupid ass chose an inaccurate move instead of the reliable one.
 
and you know for sure that the only reason you will EVER miss is if your stupid ass chose an inaccurate move instead of the reliable one.
Bright Powder isn't banned. I can't tell you how annoying it is to miss 100% accurate moves while your opponent Shell Smashes freely with his Cloyster and then sweeps your whole team, just because of something luck based like this, while it should be save to assume that 100% acc. moves would hit...
 
So, on topic, who would be the best abuser anyway?
While not the best, Froslass could use more use out of it than it's cursed body ability.

It would allow Froslass to set up spikes more easily on a hail team and maybe deal some damage. Since it would be in the hail most of the time, it could also run blizzard. Then when the hail stops, it could start using destiny bond since it would now be more vulnerable. It could be a valuable asset to hail teams.
 
AAAAAANYWAY back on topic, I do believe that Snow Cloak/Sand Veil are fine now that Weather is nerfed. This would also allow mons like, say. Glaceon and Frosslass to finally have some presence in the metagame. (Hail sucks, I know, but hey.)
It would be nice to see some actual variety in the game considering the amount of bans. The abilities by themselves are slightly infuriating, and it would take time for people to adjust to missing 10% of the time (Not even that much...), but there really isn't a valid reason for these two abilities being banned anymore.
 
Look, we all know how annoying double team and minimize are. I have to run roar on my Houndoom in wifi battles specifically because people don't have to follow Smogon rules on there. But as for evasion abilites? IMO, no, they're just not that broken anymore. If you really get into the mechanics of it (+1 evasion stat for 7 turns MAX if they're lucky enough to be in the perfect situation), you realize that they're just niches specific to a few pokemon like any other ability. Being able to force hax miss on somebody for a few turns is at this point, I feel, is a legitimate strategy. Just like being able to go hyper-offensive on a team for a few turns after somebody sets up rain is. Trolling evasion moves is one thing, and then having a temporary evasion boost in your ability is in a completely different league of strategies that rely on a small amount of luck. And btw, that league is in the same league as Para-hax, para-conf, and choosing to run moves like H-Pump and Focus Blast.
 
When this crap comes up there tend to be 2 camps that forget why things are the way they are. Cloak and Veil weren't banned until Hidden Abilities (Dream World Abilities) became a thing- because it means that banning evasion abilities isn't outright banning mons like Sandslash.

Evasion itself has never been particularly powerful by itself- but it is banned because it is an oppressive mechanic that takes the focus of the game away from Rock-Paper-Shotgun by making moves like Vital Throw and Magic Leaf absolute necessary evils- and when the mons with those get sniped and stalling is setup, the effect reduces the ability to get back into the game (it's been a point of argument for a very long time, but the decision was simply that the evasion mechanic outright warps the focus of the game.) Before players often asked for "No DT/Mini"- games would outright end as early as the second or third mon down, because of a toxic stall that bought free turns on evasion in addition to the other stalling effects.

I don't think the caveat added last gen exists for real gamebreaking purposes- but as a matter of principle since banning evasion no longer outright bans certain mons. I don't necessarily agree with making rules based on principles of "making the game more skillful"- but the community made it's choice and when the discussion re-emerges, will make it's choice again. But the rule does have purpose in making the game far deeper than a parasitic mechanic like evasion allows it to be otherwise.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Dont think they should be used anyway because for example a garchomp could just use sub and hope for a miss then set up swords dance with his mega form and sweep. They could even just use sand storm themselves to keep sand veil going. So even though weather is harder to keep up, its still not a good enough reason to let the abilities be used.
 
I'm really torn on this issue. On one side, Sand Veil was legal for all of Gen 4 and 90% of Gen 5 and was really only ever broken on Chomper. With the weather nerf I really doubt it would be broken at all, especially considering he has a perfect counter in Togekiss and his Mega-Forme doesn't even get Sand Veil. He can't spam Sub 4 times until he gets a miss like in the old days. Plus he can easily be phazed now thanks to Roar/Whirlwind buff.

But on the other hand, evasion is stupid as hell. So it's a toss-up for me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top