Ability Sand Veil + Snow Cloak - Balanced now?

[Pata Hikari]

Dont think they should be used anyway because for example a garchomp could just use sub and hope for a miss then set up swords dance with his mega form and sweep. They could even just use sand storm themselves to keep sand veil going. So even though weather is harder to keep up, its still not a good enough reason to let the abilities be used.

Except that banning them is stupid and pointless. Who cares if Garchomp is trying to fish for a miss? 9 times out of ten that's just going to lead to a KO'd Garchomp. It's a bad strategy that will only get the occasional lucky win, and ladders and rankings are obviously able to handle the occasional lucky win.

 

[Mr. Degradation]

Except that banning them is stupid and pointless. Who cares if Garchomp is trying to fish for a miss? 9 times out of ten that's just going to lead to a KO'd Garchomp. It's a bad strategy that will only get the occasional lucky win, and ladders and rankings are obviously able to handle the occasional lucky win.

Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, the players at the top of the ladder at the time of the discussion made the ban on principal. Stage 1 evasion is negligible and Stage 2 evasion rarely matters, as you can witness from jumping into WiFi cart games. But, with that in mind- how stark does the rule need to be? The principal behind the decisions is that because of alternative abilities- all evasion should be removed from the competitive game. It's tougher to find players who try to keep you from accuracy buffing or crit buffing than it used to be, because the rules became frivolous when the game changed. But how does that extend to evasion?

If you open the proverbial flood gates- it's just a matter of time before the game becomes a difficult drudge to stalling finishes and the juncture where counterplay to evasion becomes a focal point that takes away from every other strategy available.

 

[N1ght123]

Except that banning them is stupid and pointless. Who cares if Garchomp is trying to fish for a miss? 9 times out of ten that's just going to lead to a KO'd Garchomp. It's a bad strategy that will only get the occasional lucky win, and ladders and rankings are obviously able to handle the occasional lucky win.

If I am not mistaken it is the fact that the 1 out of 10 exists here. It's the fact that 10% of the time, based on random chance, a Garchomp can sweep an entire team. The "lucky win" is what is trying to be avoided here. Simply saying "who cares?" does not invalidate the existence of the rule.

 

[Pata Hikari]

If you open the proverbial flood gates- it's just a matter of time before the game becomes a difficult drudge to stalling finishes and the juncture where counterplay to evasion becomes a focal point that takes away from every other strategy available.

This is a ridiculous slippery slope argument that really has no basis in reality. If you'll notice, none of Nintendo's formats have a problem with evasion spamming. If evasion was so powerful then every official tournament would be filled with evasion spammers and counters to evasion spammers.

If I am not mistaken it is the fact that the 1 out of 10 exists here. It's the fact that 10% of the time, based on random chance, a Garchomp can sweep an entire team. The "lucky win" is what is trying to be avoided here.

Why? A single match is completely unimportant. What matters is the long term, anybody to tries fishing for a miss to win is going to realize it's not going to get them a win most of the time and abandon it.

 

[Mr. Degradation]

This is a ridiculous slippery slope argument that really has no basis in reality. If you'll notice, none of Nintendo's formats have a problem with evasion spamming. If evasion was so powerful then every official tournament would be filled with evasion spammers and counters to evasion spammers.

The Nintendo format is 2v2, a format where evasion is not only weaker due to attacks often being focused- but one that is also considerably faster, where extensive setup strategies get squashed. There's no need to ban it in that format, because there isn't enough time to buy free turns with DT/Cloak/Veil/Min.

 

[N1ght123]

Why? A single match is completely unimportant. What matters is the long term, anybody to tries fishing for a miss to win is going to realize it's not going to get them a win most of the time and abandon it.

The single match is not completely unimportant. Things are banned because they are deemed too luck reliant or centralizing, with luck obviously being the culprit in this case.

Type A Banning: Reducing the Metagame's Skill-dependancy

Inconsistant. I had to say it. But also OHKO clause, Evasion clause, and Sleep Clause. I think it is inherent that this type of banning will often have to do with luck, but at a deeper source, it has to do with taking control of the game out of the player's hands, therefore removing the aspect of skill. That is why 4th Gen's wobb ban also probably has to do heavily with this type of ban. Inconsistant falls under here even without the luck aspect-- it takes the skill out of the game. Luck factors are not the only ones that can do this (sleep, Shadow Tag), but they are probably the most prominent.

The luck factor Moody creates is highly detrimental to the Ubers metagame; it takes a significant amount of skill out of the game and turns the entire match into a dice roll. A Pokemon that can sweep any team after one turn of set up undeniably broken.

These are quotes showing why luck based things are banned in the first place. They take control out of the match, as stated in both quotes. The luck based ban is not completely focused on its centralization on the metagame. Arguing that something just is not that good will not do. It is obvious from looking at any thread that has to do with any luck based banning to see that luck is generally avoided at all costs. (for examples look up any of the threads discussing 0hkos, moody and evasion)

 

[Rickyticq]

Evasion itself has never been particularly powerful by itself- but it is banned because it is an oppressive mechanic that takes the focus of the game away from Rock-Paper-Shotgun by making moves like Vital Throw and Magic Leaf absolute necessary evils- and when the mons with those get sniped and stalling is setup, the effect reduces the ability to get back into the game (it's been a point of argument for a very long time, but the decision was simply that the evasion mechanic outright warps the focus of the game.) Before players often asked for "No DT/Mini"- games would outright end as early as the second or third mon down, because of a toxic stall that bought free turns on evasion in addition to the other stalling effects.

I don't think the caveat added last gen exists for real gamebreaking purposes- but as a matter of principle since banning evasion no longer outright bans certain mons. I don't necessarily agree with making rules based on principles of "making the game more skillful"- but the community made it's choice and when the discussion re-emerges, will make it's choice again. But the rule does have purpose in making the game far deeper than a parasitic mechanic like evasion allows it to be otherwise.

I don't really think people are gonna start running the BP 60 no-miss moves just because there are a few pokemon with evasion abilities out there; I know I certainly wont. But besides that point, we're trying to have a civil discussion as to whether or not an occasional miss against a select few pokemon under their respective weather is broken/unbalanced/uncompetitive/etc. And so we don't get caught up in opinions which could be thrown out all day, I'll lay down some facts:

• Every person who has a soul hates minimize/DT. I tried to defend evasion earlier at one point, I was a fool back then.
  
• The ability "Serene Grace" literally doubles hax. Not banned because it still takes an amount of skill to use
• The ability "Super Luck" (Doubles crit chance) not banned because it really doesn't make that much of a difference in the metagame
• Confusion mechanic not banned though based ENTIRELY on luck (smh at mass popularity of that motherfucking set-of-keys pokemon)
  
• Evasion abilities up evasion by 20%, so the equivalent of the accuracy difference between hydro-pump and surf
• Chance of that Magic Guard Alakazam using Life Orb vs. Focus Sash: 50%. Chance of my Garchomp's dual chop missing (because I want to break the possible sash): 10%

Look, if you haven't got it already, my point is that luck is an integral part of the game whether you like it or not, and there is a lot of it. And in my opinion, banning 2 niche abilities because something doesn't always go your way when you're against them, well that just seems childish to me (especially after the nerf this gen).

edit: And yes I know the point of banning this in the 1st place was to try to remove the luck factor as much as possible, but this isn't a meta-game changing mechanic. It's more of an occasional "get out of jail free" card ability. And this is besides the point, but you gotta admit it's a lot less OP than Magic Bounce, or any of the weather starting abilities in 5th gen for that matter

 

[farranpoison]

I'll point out that Tangled Feet is an ability that increases evasion under certain conditions and it is not banned.

As such, Snow Cloak/Sand Veil likely won't be as well.

What set them apart previously is the fact that the "certain conditions" were easy to make endless, but now that is no longer the case, so I bet that it will be another Tangled Feet situation.

Their situations are different in the sense of who gets each ability. Tangled Feet users include dangerous mons such as Pidgeot, Spinda, Chatot, and Dodrio. Sand Veil users include GARCHOMP.

I don't think they're the same.

 

[Cshadow]

There's also the fact that Tangled Feet requires you to be confused, wears off when you are no longer confused, and does not negate the whole "I might hit myself thing" that confusion causes.

They are absolutely nothing alike. That is a pretty weak comparison.

 

[ginganinja]

Locking this because its turning into a Luck / Critical Hits / Evasion Bitching thread, and judging from the first page, there are going to be no well written arguments here. Its a shame, since I think the OP did very well to remain neutral, but this has derailed and thus, im locking. Sorry OP, you tried.