Metagame Scalemons

Kris

broken bricks
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I'm back!

Regarding Rain and Sun
:pelipper::barraskewda::mantine::vulpix::torkoal::darumaka:

Rain and sun teams have been dominating the meta for as long as its been playable on PS. The counterplay to these types of teams is minimal considering the lack of viable hail and sand setters and general lack of Air Lock/Cloud Nine users (only one that exists is Drampa). There is a never-ending amount of Pokemon that can utilize rain and sun in one way or another, be it from boosting coverage moves via accuracy or power, using an ability to boost Speed, etc. Scalemons is not a meta that focuses on complex bans, and banning the Pokemon that individually become broken from Drizzle and Drought would cause the banlist to become too long to handle. Because of this, Drizzle and Drought are banned.


Regarding Gastly
:gastly:

Once on the banlist back in the USM metagame, Gastly has once again proven itself to be too much for the metagame to handle. Although options to outspeed and KO it exist, most teams have resorted to running niche options and a ton of entry hazards to get around Gastly's many sets. From Focus Sash to Life Orb to even Choice Scarf, Gastly's extremely high Special Attack combined with multiple tools to further bolster its Speed as well as a very forgiving movepool are causing it to be banned.
 

Shedinja super jacked in this Meta.
Having the lowest HP and the 12th lowest BST (excluding identical BSTs), Shedinja has an amazing 229 Atk and 101 Spe.
Shedinja was also buffed the Gen in general thanks to HDB helping it against Hazards, and Hidden Power/Pursuit being removed.
The downsides are that Shedinja still has to choose between Goggles, Lum, Boots, and Focus Sash, since it can either only be immune to Sand or Hazards, or it can take 1 toxic or 1 super effective attack. Also, due to always dying in 1 hit and you can't pass subs, Shedinja's Def and SpD don't matter at all.
Shedinja @ (Any of the items I listed)
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Agility
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak/Shadow Claw
After 1 Agility, Shedinja is capable of outspeeding unboosted 251 Spe (I'm pretty sure only Feebas and Magikarp, which do not have coverage to harm Shedinja besides Toxic, and are bad anyways, can outspeed +2 Shedinja naturally), and outspeeds scarfed 151 always.
For fighting Bulkier teams, Shedinja can also use Sword Dance to boost its already amazing attack to have an attack in the 1,000s.
X-Scissor is Shedinja's strongest bug attack, tied with Leech Life, which has a useless effect and less PP.
For Shedinja's last moves, you can choose between Shadow Sneak for picking off Pokemon pre-agility, and if you think the opponent has a scarfer with a base 152+.
Shadow Claw naturally does way more damage and has a higher crit ratio, making bulkier teams easier to destroy.
There isn't much else to say besides kill sand/hail setters as soon as you can if you don't run Goggles, run multiple Hazard Control if you don't run Boots, and scout out for movesets.
 
I'm 4th rn on ladder and moody's such a problem. I got a moody mon on my team just so I don't get fucked by teams like that. Once more people catch on, they'll realize how dumb and broken it is.
 

Kris

broken bricks
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driveris a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
The following things are now banned.

Moody, Sunny Day, Rain Dance

The former was a broken strategy that I didn't ban initially because i wanted to see how the nerf to Moody fared in the metagame; still broken.

Sunny Day and Rain Dance are banned because despite the weather abilities already being banned, teams simply replaced the weather setters with Prankster + weather-setting moves, which was equally as broken.
 
anyone got a sample team they can pass? Meta looks fun, I just got no fuckin idea where to start
I already kinda wanted to post my team, so here you go.

Importable:
Ferroseed @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Linoone @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Seed Bomb

Ninjask @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Night Slash
- Defog

Pawniard @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Timburr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Facade

Explanation for some of my less common mons:

Linoone is incredibly good in this meta. A lot of the metagame is frailer offense, and full HP investment makes Linoone able to set up on a lot of things you wouldn’t think it could. Also, strong ESpeed is good even without Belly Drum.

Ninjask is one of the fastest unboosted mons, and has decent Atk in addition to Defog. Adamant lets it OHKO +1 Inkay and Butterfree and hit harder in general, and it already outspeeds everything so it doesn’t mind the speed loss.

Pelipper is surprisingly good even without rain. Hurricane and Hydro Pump misses and the decreased power is annoying, but it’s still quite strong and has impressive physical bulk.
 

Chazm

unspecified destination
is a Pre-Contributor
The following things are now banned.

Moody, Sunny Day, Rain Dance

The former was a broken strategy that I didn't ban initially because i wanted to see how the nerf to Moody fared in the metagame; still broken.

Sunny Day and Rain Dance are banned because despite the weather abilities already being banned, teams simply replaced the weather setters with Prankster + weather-setting moves, which was equally as broken.
I can agree with Moody, but there is no way in hell Rain Dance and Sunny Day are uncompetitive in the metagame. There are generally a lack of Speed boosting options that are actively threatening to defensive cores right now, especially those carrying Ferrothorn and Toxapex, and they are generally far harder to set up than their automatic counterparts. Furthermore, a lot of the rain and sun abusers are broken in their own right and I feel like they should be looked at instead.

Darmanitan

Darmanitan is an absolutely crazy Pokemon. It doesn't really have any reliable defensive counterplay outside of Quagsire, and that can easily get U-turn chipped, Taunted, inflicted with Toxic by Darmanitan only to make its goal to break through teams easier. Its decent speed tier of 125 doesn't really hold it back much in offensive matchups either as it is enough to get past important threats like Pawniard. Please consider this for a ban, it doesn't really have any good counterplay right now.

Crawdaunt

Crawdaunt is another case to Darmanitan, but instead of being fast, it's a lot slower but stronger with priority to boot and access to Swords Dance. Even outside of rain, due to the lack of revenge killing Water resists, outside of Wingull, Crawdaunt generally has free reign over the endgame even if it isn't boosted due to its ridiculous Adaptability Aqua Jets. It is probably the mon I feel most for on this list.

Wingull

Wingull is a little interesting, but it's probably the mon that benefits the most from the Rain playstyle that was eventually banned. However, even outside of this Wingull still proves to be an extremely consistent threat due to its blistering 206 Speed, almost perfect STAB coverage and access to both Knock Off and U-turn as utility moves. Specs tends to get really hard to switch into as the game goes on even outside of rain due to multiple setup opportunities from its Ground immunity and ridiculous Speed. All of these threats combine to make Wingull potentially ferocious enough to consider getting the boot.

Other mons I feel are also pretty toxic to the metagame:

Pawniard

Pawniard is the 'other' Crawdaunt of this group in that it's a Dark type with ridiculously strong attributes that often result in it getting suspected. Most of the counterplay I have seen for Pawniard is using a Conkeldurr or Timburr to just take an Iron Head and Mach Punch to kill - which doesn't really sound too healthy for me. The scare of Body Press on new mons pushes it down for a bit but I still feel like it's problematic.

Darumaka / Darumaka-Galar

Baby darm. Still broken due to Hustle being a bad IntrepidSword, but currently out of the limelight due to its brother being in the metagame. If we took the above four out I would look to suspecting this next.
 
I can agree with Moody, but there is no way in hell Rain Dance and Sunny Day are uncompetitive in the metagame. There are generally a lack of Speed boosting options that are actively threatening to defensive cores right now, especially those carrying Ferrothorn and Toxapex, and they are generally far harder to set up than their automatic counterparts. Furthermore, a lot of the rain and sun abusers are broken in their own right and I feel like they should be looked at instead.
I agree with all of your nominations - all of these mons are difficult to deal with even with a defensive team, so the matchup against balance (and offense, in the case of Wingull) is incredibly skewed.

:sm/darmanitan::sm/darumaka::ss/darumaka-galar::sm/crawdaunt:
I've discussed with Kris about these mons, and we've come to a conclusion to ban Darmanitan, Darumaka (-Galar), and Crawdaunt, . The Immortal and also kris :I

Personally, I'm not so sure on Wingull and Pawniard - the former has trouble breaking through specially defensive walls like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Clefable, all of which either remove its Specs or 2HKO it outright, while Pawniard is, as you said, scared away by various Body Presses and Mach Punches (both of which are pretty common). As for weather, I'd like some more discussion on it because stuff like Krabby, Corphish, and Dewpider/Araquanid still exist.

Also, a team I'd like to share:
:ss/quagsire::ss/toxapex::ss/avalugg::ss/ferrothorn::ss/clefable::ss/sableye:
Basically when I first started Gen 8 Scalemons I remembered how last gen started all offensive and quickly turned into a stallfest, so I built stall and as it turns out, it's really good. Names are based off a pretty cool Spotify playlist I found when someone logged into my account.

1584830796018.png


Quagsire is great, pretty much walling any physical sweeper and also chipping like everyone with Scald + EQ. Standard set, not much to see here.

Toxapex is the first special wall, taking max 46% from Specs Haunter and KOing it with Knock Off. I used Wacan Berry during my run so I don't get surprised by a random Thunderbolt.

Avalugg is the second physical wall, and an incredibly formidable one. With staggering 95/221 bulk, it's a solid check to physical wallbreakers that Quagsire can't take on, such as Crawdaunt, Trapinch, and Drilbur. I passed Avalanche on it (doesn't really hit much anyway) to use Crunch, which surprises both Haunter and Shedinja, two common spinblockers. Body Press is great to heavily chip Ferroseed and Ferrothorn.

Ferrothorn is a great special wall and hazard setter. I chose it over Ferroseed because of the higher Attack, making it much less passive, and also because Ferrothorn actually has more bulk overall than Ferroseed. Otherwise, pretty standard set, use Iron Head over Knock Off if Fairies are annoying.

Clefable is the second setup check, eating hits from the likes of Sinistea/Polteageist, Hatterene, and Swoobat, while also providing very useful cleric and wishpassing roles. Protect also helps against choiced attackers like Darumaka and Haunter.

In my opinion, Sableye is criminally underrated and maybe the most useful member of the team. It can come in many non-Dark setup attackers and stop them in their tracks with Encore (very useful against Linoone, Excadrill/Drilbur, etc.). It's also a very good spinblocker, since most spinners don't have Fairy coverage and are also physical so Sableye just Prankster burns them. Knock Off also hits surprisingly hard.

While this is a really solid stall team, it does struggle quite a bit with Magic Guard Clefable. If it's a utility set (Moonblast and Fire coverage) Toxapex usually just PP stalls it, though if it has Psychic or Electric coverage you'll have to play around it a little more using your own Clefable, Toxapex, and Sableye's Encore.
 
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When the tier first was playable I was able to /data mid-game to get legit stats for the tier. Now its just providing default stats. Is there a problem with Showdown?
 

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