Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets

I do believe that 5 scarfers in a randomly generated team is overkill... will you do something to prevent stuff like this?
We already do as much as we can. We have a long-term goal of lowering the frequency of choice item users as much as is feasible, but there's only so much we can push that, especially this gen. You can see our steps to reduce choice items in the upcoming update, especially marked as such.

We truly cannot put a hard limit on choice item users by any means whatsoever, and we can instead only reduce the distribution of choice items in the format as a whole. You got absurdly unlucky. It happens. We can't make it not happen.
 
"Support" Decidueye with HDB and Defog should always come with Roost. I've had at least 3 games where I got one without recovery and kept wishing it didn't get chipped to death trying to clear hazards.

Speaking of hazards, I feel they are way too good right now. Perhaps due to the combination of more mons having them, less HDB on mons that desperately need them (Eviolite Scyther yuck), mons with Defog/Rapid Spin often not rolling them.
 
"Support" Decidueye with HDB and Defog should always come with Roost. I've had at least 3 games where I got one without recovery and kept wishing it didn't get chipped to death trying to clear hazards.

Speaking of hazards, I feel they are way too good right now. Perhaps due to the combination of more mons having them, less HDB on mons that desperately need them (Eviolite Scyther yuck), mons with Defog/Rapid Spin often not rolling them.
Forcing Roost on Decidueye would make Defog significantly less common and would also delete AV and Boots from Decidueye entirely, and is therefore undesirable. No, we can't prevent those consequences on a technical level.

We have a long-term goal in many of our changes to increase the frequency of hazard removal and decrease the frequency of hazards. Eviolite Scyther only appears in the lead slot when it does not have U-turn and is therefore extremely uncommon.

You can see the progress we make in our long-term goals in the Changelog.
 
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Solar Power Charizard (teammate with sunny day) rolled Hurricane... which gets 50% accuracy in sun.
Moves occur before ability generation while sets are being created. As a result, we can't prevent Solar Power Charizard from getting Hurricane. Thus, there are only a few possible solutions:

-We could prevent Charizard from ever getting Solar Power and only ever get Blaze from now on, even if there is a teammate with sun. Thus, you will not feel like you want to have Charizard out in sun.

-We could give all Charizards Air Slash + Fire Blast instead of Hurricane + Flamethrower, despite the former combination being weaker in power and lacking a 100% accuracy move, solely so that in the ~0.3% of situations where you get a Charizard with a sun setter, it can use its flying move accurately.

-We could do nothing and let this fringe interaction continue to exist.

These are your only options, as these are our only options. Pick one.
 
Just want to throw out a few theoretical ideas (no promises on effectiveness):

- BU Ursaluna – SD seems like overkill given that you destroy most defensive mons at +1 (or even +0 to an extent) anyway and Ursaluna seems like it'd appreciate the longevity
- Gothitelle lacks Ursaluna's immediate power (and is probably getting forced out after KOing a mon anyway) so I don't see how CM is significantly better on it than NP
- NP/Calm Mind/Agility? Farigiraf as a setup option since it's decently bulky and apparently these are ran in standard metas
- Thunder Punch on setup Iron Hands as an additional option, trading the base power for increased longevity
- Trick on Scarf Indeedees? Not sure if they like giving up their item though/most of the time they have no problem wearing down their checks anyway
- Is Liquidation on SD Fireceus worth it? Extreme Speed seems more useful overall unless you run into Oricorio or something and Stone Edge also works vs Flyings in general
- Hydration Luvdisc instead/in addition to Swift Swim – it outspeeds, and gets 2HKOed by, 80% of offensive mons so it may be situationally more useful

May think of more later but that's all I have at the moment. I've gotten to 2300s this gen on randbats ladder (and made it to 2400s last gen) so I largely understand the general dynamics/playstyle of randbats. Thanks to the randbats team for a consistently fun randbats experience.
 
- BU Ursaluna – SD seems like overkill given that you destroy most defensive mons at +1 (or even +0 to an extent) anyway and Ursaluna seems like it'd appreciate the longevity
+1 Lvl 79 84 Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. Lvl 78 84 HP / 84 Def Ting-Lu: 297-349 (80.2 - 94.3%)


- Gothitelle lacks Ursaluna's immediate power (and is probably getting forced out after KOing a mon anyway) so I don't see how CM is significantly better on it than NP
That change is new, actually. Used to be plot, turned it to CM and gave it a bunch of teras with immunities to be a better trapper. If its winrate suffers as a result we'll revert the CM part.


- Thunder Punch on setup Iron Hands as an additional option, trading the base power for increased longevity
Probably.

- Trick on Scarf Indeedees? Not sure if they like giving up their item though/most of the time they have no problem wearing down their checks anyway
i'll think about it but it makes healing wish annoying codewise

- Is Liquidation on SD Fireceus worth it? Extreme Speed seems more useful overall unless you run into Oricorio or something and Stone Edge also works vs Flyings in general
Water's a good Tera Type on it, Liquidation's a good alternative/complement to Earthquake to hit Fires/Rocks and add variety to the set.


- Hydration Luvdisc instead/in addition to Swift Swim – it outspeeds, and gets 2HKOed by, 80% of offensive mons so it may be situationally more useful
too much coding effort for something of little to no benefit to a hopeless pokemon
 
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In Gen 9 randbats, Gastrodon gets Earthquake but has no chance to get Earth Power.

In Gen 9 Scarlet and Violet and Gen 8 Sword and Shield, meta Gastrodon in 6v6 ran Earth Power instead of Earthquake. Because Gastrodon has a higher SpAtk instead of Atk, as well as Stormdrain to further increase it's SpAtk, I think it makes more sense to either remove Earthquake and replace it with Earth power or add Earth Power to the move pool.
 
First post on the forum. Personally I think that the burden that the 50/50 between Substitute and Sleep Powder on a mon like Vivillion with QD is not fun for anyone. I know this is the nature of Pokemon and randbats but I don't see why add that additional layer of unpredictability vs a set-up mon that can end the game on the spot. If I could give a suggestion, it'd be to make it always Sleep Powder (even though it's a very strong move). Too often you just get swept because you make a switch-in to get a mon put to sleep and they sub, or you stay in and they put you to sleep and proceed to get the key additional QD off.
 
First post on the forum. Personally I think that the burden that the 50/50 between Substitute and Sleep Powder on a mon like Vivillion with QD is not fun for anyone. I know this is the nature of Pokemon and randbats but I don't see why add that additional layer of unpredictability vs a set-up mon that can end the game on the spot. If I could give a suggestion, it'd be to make it always Sleep Powder (even though it's a very strong move). Too often you just get swept because you make a switch-in to get a mon put to sleep and they sub, or you stay in and they put you to sleep and proceed to get the key additional QD off.
Hi. We don't nerf Pokemon's sets on purpose to make them weaker. Please read our development principles, specifically those about not nerfing sets and desiring variety. Vivillon is not enough of a problem to be worth breaking these principles that we stand by.

However, we do also have a council now that can vote to break principles if they so wish. Your suggestion has been forwarded to them, but don't get hopeful.
 
Hi. We don't nerf Pokemon's sets on purpose to make them weaker. Please read our development principles, specifically those about not nerfing sets and desiring variety. Vivillon is not enough of a problem to be worth breaking these principles that we stand by.

However, we do also have a council now that can vote to break principles if they so wish. Your suggestion has been forwarded to them, but don't get hopeful.

I see I see, should have been more careful with the reading ahahah. Thank you though.
 
i find the updates to gothitelle really hurt the mon, i won't touch on nasty plot since someone already did but dropping shadow ball for dark pulse is a worse option imo. the only thing i think dark pulse is better for is h zoroark but that's 1 mon, shadow ball gives you pretty much the same coverage and it isn't resisted by fairies
 
i find the updates to gothitelle really hurt the mon, i won't touch on nasty plot since someone already did but dropping shadow ball for dark pulse is a worse option imo. the only thing i think dark pulse is better for is h zoroark but that's 1 mon, shadow ball gives you pretty much the same coverage and it isn't resisted by fairies
Dark Pulse hits the plethora of normal/psychics that we currently have; it actually hits more than shadow ball does for a Psychic type in current gen 9. This change occurred on Gothitelle, Mew, and Mewtwo after mathematical analysis of the entire format. Sure, you don't hit scream tail, medicham, gallade, hatterene, or gardevoir anymore. But now you hit oranguru, indeedees, farigiraf, girafarig, meloetta, and wyrdeer. That's more gain than loss. Count 'em.

It's also better as a move to lock into on scarf than shadow ball due to its flinch chance and lack of immunities, as well as the better tera stab.
 
Just got an Unburden Hawlucha that didn't have Acrobatics and randomly had Encore. Is this intentional? If so, it's bad

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Just got an Unburden Hawlucha that didn't have Acrobatics and randomly had Encore. Is this intentional? If so, it's bad

View attachment 529974
Hawlucha doesn't need Acrobatics in order to use Unburden. it still gains the Speed boost either way, and Brave Bird is both stronger and usable immediately. Encore is a new addition on the set to help it set up more frequently, because it usually doesn't need coverage outside of its STAB moves.

Keep in mind Hawlucha can still run acrobatics; it can run Acrobatics alongside Brave Bird, or it can run Acrobatics on its own with Stone Edge or Encore! Either way, Hawlucha keeps Unburden and White Herb.

We will not remove Encore and Brave Bird from Hawlucha because you said "it's bad". Please provide solid logical reasoning for why the moves are objectively not optimal to have as options if you wish for us to seriously consider your request.
 
Hawlucha doesn't need Acrobatics in order to use Unburden. it still gains the Speed boost either way, and Brave Bird is both stronger and usable immediately. Encore is a new addition on the set to help it set up more frequently, because it usually doesn't need coverage outside of its STAB moves.

Keep in mind Hawlucha can still run acrobatics; it can run Acrobatics alongside Brave Bird, or it can run Acrobatics on its own with Stone Edge or Encore! Either way, Hawlucha keeps Unburden and White Herb.

We will not remove Encore and Brave Bird from Hawlucha because you said "it's bad". Please provide solid logical reasoning for why the moves are objectively not optimal to have as options if you wish for us to seriously consider your request.

I think I want to argue to Tommaniacal’s point: if the Hawlucha has unburden, it’s probably best to give it a move which has good synergy with the ability. Brave bird is more immediately powerful, and even slightly more powerful than full throttle Acrobatics, but the recoil could be a problem for its spammability when trying to sweep; Hawlucha chips itself, making it more vulnerable to priority moves or just killing itself

I will say, as someone who has struggled with what to put in Hawlucha’s moveslots, I see nothing wrong with Encore as a method of setting up. However, I feel like Taunt might be similarly good or better: Hawlucha’s somewhat frail, and hates status moves, so I feel like there’s a smaller pool of moves that it benefits from encoring than that it benefits from taunting; that might just be me tho

Also, a bit of a crackpot idea: a set with power herb and Sky Attack gives Hawlucha a sort of one-time nuke, not just with marginally higher power than brave bird, but also high crit rate and a flinch chance, while still activating unburden. Then again, not sure if there’s anything worth replacing with Sky Attack, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I think I want to argue to Tommaniacal’s point: if the Hawlucha has unburden, it’s probably best to give it a move which has good synergy with the ability. Brave bird is more immediately powerful, and even slightly more powerful than full throttle Acrobatics, but the recoil could be a problem for its spammability when trying to sweep; Hawlucha chips itself, making it more vulnerable to priority moves or just killing itself
Yes, that's why it has both and can roll both at the same time. The power is useful. More useful than Sky Attack, certainly, because Sky Attack is single-use and can miss.

I will say, as someone who has struggled with what to put in Hawlucha’s moveslots, I see nothing wrong with Encore as a method of setting up. However, I feel like Taunt might be similarly good or better: Hawlucha’s somewhat frail, and hates status moves, so I feel like there’s a smaller pool of moves that it benefits from encoring than that it benefits from taunting; that might just be me tho
Fast Encore turns bulky Pokemon trying to set hazards or recover, or literally anything using a Bug, Dark, or Ground move, into free setup bait. Taunt can't do that. You're right; hawlucha is frail, and forcing the opponent to attack it doesn't seem like the best of ideas.


I know y'all are really angry that a hawlucha doesn't always have acrobatics, but rands is different from tiers. You don't see it running seeds, do you? It isn't trying to be bulky or survive for as long as possible, and it can't use Acro immediately like it can in tiers. It's trying to set up, KO a couple of mons, and then dip with its job being done. And sometimes, it can't even set up, and acrobatics isn't useful then. Brave Bird, however, is useful out the gate before and after setting up unburden, unlike both of its other flying move options.

Both of the format heads agree about this: Hawlucha will not have enforced Acrobatics, we will not under any circumstances remove Brave Bird, and we will not remove Encore unless its winrate drops from its recent addition.
 
Yes, that's why it has both and can roll both at the same time. The power is useful. More useful than Sky Attack, certainly, because Sky Attack is single-use and can miss.


Fast Encore turns bulky Pokemon trying to set hazards or recover, or literally anything using a Bug, Dark, or Ground move, into free setup bait. Taunt can't do that. You're right; hawlucha is frail, and forcing the opponent to attack it doesn't seem like the best of ideas.


I know y'all are really angry that a hawlucha doesn't always have acrobatics, but rands is different from tiers. You don't see it running seeds, do you? It isn't trying to be bulky or survive for as long as possible, and it can't use Acro immediately like it can in tiers. It's trying to set up, KO a couple of mons, and then dip with its job being done. And sometimes, it can't even set up, and acrobatics isn't useful then. Brave Bird, however, is useful out the gate before and after setting up unburden, unlike both of its other flying move options.

Both of the format heads agree about this: Hawlucha will not have enforced Acrobatics, we will not under any circumstances remove Brave Bird, and we will not remove Encore unless its winrate drops from its recent addition.

This all makes sense, also I didn’t know it could have either of bb or acro, my bad; thank you, and sorry if my post sounded aggro
 
In Gen 9 randbats, Gastrodon gets Earthquake but has no chance to get Earth Power.

In Gen 9 Scarlet and Violet and Gen 8 Sword and Shield, meta Gastrodon in 6v6 ran Earth Power instead of Earthquake. Because Gastrodon has a higher SpAtk instead of Atk, as well as Stormdrain to further increase it's SpAtk, I think it makes more sense to either remove Earthquake and replace it with Earth power or add Earth Power to the move pool.
Sorry, forgot to reply to this one! That's my bad.

We DID discuss this internally at length; ultimately, earthquake DOES do more damage than earth power in Rands to an equal-defenses target; it also allows Gastrodon to actually pressure Pokemon like Blissey and Goodra (though the latter has Power Whip sometimes, ofc). Earth Power, on the other hand, makes better use of storm drain and can hit some Steel-types better. Given it already has Surf, Earthquake is generally considered more valuable. I'm still letting it simmer on whether I want it to have both, though. We'll see.
 
I just had a Klefki with
Magnet Rise
T Wave
Dazzling Gleam
Play Rough

Ae the 2 fairy type moves not redundant? Spikes is guaranteed progress even if I can't damage my opponent's mon, but the two fairy moves don't seem like they serve a purpose on the same set
 
I just had a Klefki with
Magnet Rise
T Wave
Dazzling Gleam
Play Rough

Ae the 2 fairy type moves not redundant? Spikes is guaranteed progress even if I can't damage my opponent's mon, but the two fairy moves don't seem like they serve a purpose on the same set

Play rough and dazzling gleam reject each others so under normal circumstances you can't roll both of them on the same set. However, Spikes are also rejected from the pokemon set if you already have 2 other pokemons with Spikes in their movepool generated before Klefki. Since it doesn't have any other move, it will get the fairy type attack it rejected in the first place in order to generate with 4 moves. It's a bit unfortunate and it's quite rare, but it does happen
 
Play rough and dazzling gleam reject each others so under normal circumstances you can't roll both of them on the same set. However, Spikes are also rejected from the pokemon set if you already have 2 other pokemons with Spikes in their movepool generated before Klefki. Since it doesn't have any other move, it will get the fairy type attack it rejected in the first place in order to generate with 4 moves. It's a bit unfortunate and it's quite rare, but it does happen
Ahh, I see. I remember thinking I did have a lot of spikes on that team. Okay, thank you for the quick repsonse! Appreciate all the work you do for randbats
 
I just had a Klefki with
Magnet Rise
T Wave
Dazzling Gleam
Play Rough

Ae the 2 fairy type moves not redundant? Spikes is guaranteed progress even if I can't damage my opponent's mon, but the two fairy moves don't seem like they serve a purpose on the same set

after a bit of discussion, we have come to a solution to prevent this from happening again: klefki will have two sets, one with dgleam and one with play rough
 
I saw Barraskewda gets Waterfall over Liquidation now. Would be very curious to see if it prevents it from getting 2HKOs now (or even 1HKO), and if that's actually worth the 20% flinch instead of 20% def drop. Just a very quick look on the calc page shows me a lot of 2HKO/1HKO odds dropping significantly in a way (i.e by more than 40%) that isn't made up by a 20% flinch chance I feel like.

On another note, sometimes I so wish Palkia could get thunderbolt (or thunder) on choice sets since it compliments water/dragon/fire so well. But I'm well aware that this could result in getting water/dragon/electric on non-choice sets, which is far less optimal than water/dragon/fire. :(
 
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