Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]

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Shoopz_Whisper said:
[/SPOILER=What W0rm said]
[/SPOILER]

ok wow I got some attention

So I won't fight you on Simple because you are right, and that some more serious people may have to fight on ban/not ban.
So I apologize to mention my stance on that was, if I could, abstain.

I understand they aren't super comparable, Kyu-B and Mega Gyara, but their abilities and the chance to set-up-and-sweep seems like the same. Just one attacks specially and the other physically. I bet that if Simple is banned that M-Gyara will fall in viability. I mean I guess if Prankster + sub works and Galvanize Boomburst/Hyper Voice isn't a thing. Fantastical neutral STAB coverage?
View attachment 95166
huh

So I guess you make a compelling argument for Darkrai, and I completely agree. I will say though, for the record, that I generally think it's a bad idea to unban him. But everything you said makes sense, so I won't fight you here.

Ok ok why attack me like this? It was a suggestion. Sorta like, "hey if you could do this, great, if nah, then forgettaboutit".

Well, Blaziken, I would think has better STAB. It can practically hit anything neutrally. He's a Fire-Type Mega-Gyarados. Let's say though that I get unheard, also unban Mega-Blaziken. I mean, it's the same thing, no?
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I was just trying to make some jokes and have a laugh while making a point, I apologize for being dismissive/dickish, though I stand by my post otherwise.

To your other points, Blaziken isn't really comparable to M-Gyara as M-Gyara's claim to fame is specifically Mold Breaker. Blaziken may have an easy time boosting in this meta, but so many things do thanks to Simple, Contrary etc. I think it'd be an excellent mon, but I'm not sure if it would be broken. Extremely powerful against opposing offensive teams though no doubt.

Also I don't disagree that Darkrai could be overwhelming if unbanned, I just don't think that sleep is the primary concern.

Haakunite said:
I’m gonna have to echo what W0rm said about Mega Gyarados and Simple. It’s really hard to compare Mega Gyarados and Kyurem-Black directly, but not for the reasons you may think.

Kyurem-Black is a lethal weapon against stall while Mega Gyarados threatens just about every single archetype in the game. The fact that it’s a Dark type means that Prankster counterplay doesn’t exist, and it’s weakness to common priority can be patched up by Tapu Lele. Kyurem-Black is honestly very manageable against offensive teams as it’s speed is nothing to boast about at all, and unlike Mega Gyarados, Kyu-B has 0 ways to boost its Speed. My personal stance right now is that we should suspect test Mega Gyarados but I’d like to hear some more discussion before reaching a conclusion.

I don’t see the buzz behind Necrozma at all. It’s a pretty cool mon but is hurt by its typing, lack of offensive pressure and lackluster Speed stat. Prism Armor isn’t a very great ability, and just takes up a slot that could be used on Unaware or Regenerator as far as defensive abilities go. I’d have to see some replays where Necrozma was the contributing factor to a victory, but I just don’t see it right now.

Just my thoughts on some things. Here’s hoping for OMotM in February. ^^
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I know Necrozma sounds underwhelming on paper but in my experience Stored Power + Photon Geyser are just ridiculous in this meta because of Simple's prominence. Regardless of just how good you think it is, it absolutely deserves to be on the VR SOMEWHERE as one of the tier's best Stored Power/Simple abusers.

I think M-Gyara and Simple both deserve a suspect in their current state, but the two are so closely linked. I'd say suspect Simple first, if it's banned then give it some time before we suspect M-Gyara, if at all. If it's not banned, suspect M-Gyara immediately.
 
Haakunite said:
It’s intended. If Magic Guard is blocking damage from poison, then Poison Heal fails to heal.
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Should it really be that way? Poison Heal flavor text says "Restores HP if the Pokémon is poisoned." I understand that if the Pokémon is poisoned, it will restore HP, Magic Guard just protects you against the poison damage, but you're still poisoned.
 
The problem with any multi-ability meta is that GF has never had to program this for an actual game, so it's totally up to the plugin devs to determine how it works at runtime. Personally I agree that poison heal should always work 100% of the time if poisoned, even with Magic Guard.
 
that ivy guy said:
The problem with any multi-ability meta is that GF has never had to program this for an actual game, so it's totally up to the plugin devs to determine how it works at runtime. Personally I agree that poison heal should always work 100% of the time if poisoned, even with Magic Guard.
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That's true, if Poison Heal was based on damage, then it would grow with Toxic.
 
At the very least I think it should be edited to be consistent. Either have Poison Heal fail 100% of the time when used with Magic Guard, or have it work despite Magic Guard, the way it works now is confusing for players and I imagine it'll keep getting brought up by newcomers to the tier unless something is done.
 
working irrespective of magic guard seems far more sensible, given that preventing healing is a) not a standard behavior for the ability and b) does not occur with other types of passive healing (e.g. lefties)
 
Magic Guard: This Pokemon can only be damaged by direct attacks.

Poison Heal: This Pokemon is healed by 1/8 of its max HP each turn when poisoned; no HP loss.

Magic Guard doesn't stop you from being poisoned. It just stops HP loss from poison. Since Poison Heal is just like Leftovers or Black Sludge, I don't think that it should be blocked by Magic Guard.
 
I have seen many teams with:
Adaptability, Toxic Boost, Scrappy, Poison Heal, Guts, Quick Feet

140 x 1.3 = 182 x 1.5 = 273 x 1.5 = 409.5 x 1.5 (STAB) = 614.25 Base power Facade, Steels and Rock Types still take raw 307.125 Base power

Scrappy can be replaced, but I find it useful for negating the need for a Ghost coverage move, especially if one already uses Protect or Fake Out to stall for the Toxic Orb activation, on top of Facade, Quick Attack, Earthquake/Close Combat, etc.

But I guess the best counter is:
Marvel Scale, Multiscale, Poison Heal, Stamina, Simple, Beast Boost (try Defense).
Team is here:
Milotic @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Dragon Tail
- Mirror Coat
- Scald

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Roost
- Rock Polish

Dragonite @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Swoobat @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Air Slash
- Substitute

Blacephalon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Calm Mind

Mudsdale @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Substitute
Speaking of Simple

Simple, Stamina/Weak Armor, Defiant, Heart-Soul, Beast Boost, Moxie
Throw in Stored Power Swoobat, and Power Trip Krokodile, and suddenly everything becomes super powerful, super fast.

Take a hit get +4 Speed which turns Stored Power and Power Trip into 100 Base Power, or 150 with STAB, turn 1 with a Weak Armor Simple boost, but for consistently I like Stamina, as the move doesnt have to make contact.

Primeape is a boss, it has Reversal, Power Trip, and even Punishment which is perfect if the foe set up boosts on you. Defiant allows it to take advantage of Sticky Webs or Intimidate and a Jolly Nature makes it gain +2 Speed after Beast Boost.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-209521
 
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Level 1000 Weedle said:
Magic Guard: This Pokemon can only be damaged by direct attacks.

Poison Heal: This Pokemon is healed by 1/8 of its max HP each turn when poisoned; no HP loss.

Magic Guard doesn't stop you from being poisoned. It just stops HP loss from poison. Since Poison Heal is just like Leftovers or Black Sludge, I don't think that it should be blocked by Magic Guard.
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Poison Heal's job is to remove the HP loss and replace it with healing; Magic Guard's job is also to remove the HP loss. Poison Heal therefore gets confused if Magic Guard has already removed the HP loss, as it then has nothing to replace with healing.
Anyway, I've updated ROM to work around it, but I'll probably have forgotten when you win OMotM next month (that 's when you become eligible right?).
 
I'd like to announce that Simple is now banned from sharing. The reasoning behind Simple being allowed in the first stages of the metagame was that it came with the cost of using Swoobat or Bibarel. However, one subpar team option does not stop Pokemon like Mega Gyarados and Victini from becoming insanely ridiculous to deal with in the metagame. This has been made clear in my time playing Shared Power. Not only does Simple double the stat boosts that you get from setting up, but Beast Boost is effectively active twice and, in tandem with abilities like Weak Armor and Defiant, just calls for a very uncompetitive metagame where no risk is taken by adding a Simple user to one's team. Again, the initial thought was that Bibarel and Swoobat would be so bad that it would balance Simple out, but clearly that was a wrong thought. Tagging urkerab in order to implement this on ROM.

Also, something will be done about Mega Gyarados soon, so expect a post about this in the near future. For now though, I'd like to see how the metagame evolves with Simple bans. Some super quick VR changes:

130-m.png
A- --> S
528.png
B+ --> UR
400.png
B- --> UR
 
So I've been using a team with Kyurem-Black, Guts, Quick Feet, Adaptability, and Refrigerate. Sixth slot is currently Magic Guard (probably the best Ability in SP). I got counterteamed by Prankster Nature Power Mega Diancie, but besides that it's been really really dumb.

Another team I've been trying has been built around Choice Band Dragonite. Tough Claws, Adaptability, Aerilate, Magic Guard, and Grassy Surge (for breaking Psychic Surge). Extreme Speed snipes basically everything that doesn't resist it, and I have Return for wall-breaking and for Psychic Surge. Crawdaunt actually appreciates Aerilate, letting its Double-Edge blow up Grass-types that are trying to wall it. Pinsir comes with Stealth Rock and Mold Breaker pre-evo to guarantee Rocks. Barbaracle is pretty much just there for Tough Claws, while Tapu Bulu hits very hard with Wood Hammer and helps the team stay just a little healthier.
 
"Also, something will be done about Mega Gyarados soon, so expect a post about this in the near future. "

I hope it's not getting banned right away, things like Multiscale and Sturdy (+ Magic Guard) can be pretty annoying, and Gyarados-M is nice against those. At first I thought Stall would have no chance of succeeding, but the more I think about things like Stamina, Marvel Scale, Poison Heal, Unaware, etc and the bans (like Simple), the more I think Stall will have viable builds.
 
I'm completely against banning Mega Gyarados. The problem, if there is one, is not Mega Gyarados but rather Mold Breaker. The difference between an ability like Simple and Mega Gyarados is that Simple works even after you lose its user, and that it carries to all members. Swoobat may be bad, but all your other Pokémon now have Simple, so it's worth it. On the other hand, Mega Gyarados is a great Pokémon, but it can't support the rest of the team like Swoobat can. While its Dark typing helps against Prankster, I think that Prankster is just generally bad in this metagame due to the fact that it automatically loses to Dark types and to a Bruxish, Tapu Lele, or Tsareena.

Now, Mega Gyarados can bypass Unaware and sweep with Dragon Dance. But that's as much a threat here as in regular OU play. Gyarados has its checks and counters there, and they exist here too. Maybe we're just not using them enough.

Now, one ability that I don't think we've been looking into enough is Gale Wings. While this does get hard countered by Lele, Tsareena, and Bruxish, it can still work around them by using non flying moves. Magic Guard is basically a mandatory ability, and it works excellently with Talonflame. You take no damage from Brave Bird/Flare Blitz recoil damage, and you're always at full hp when you switch in. I've used a great Talonflame Staraptor Magic Guard team, and it works excellently. Unfortunately, you cannot use Gale Wings and Aerilate together and still get priority. Add some Hustle No Guard, Adaptability, and/or Tough Claws in and you're set.
 
I think with Simple being banned Mega-Gyarados will be slightly more manageable. That being said, I still think it has unique traits that make it a better Mold Breaker user than everything else in the tier. Kyu-B has to run Contrary/Weak Armor or Defiant to get the most mileage out of Mold Breaker/Teravolt. MGyara needs literally nothing other than Dragon Dance, yet benefits from Sheer Force (Which KyuB does as well, but not on it's most spammable move), tough claws, strong jaw, pretty much every offensive ability you can name, and has extremely good STAB coverage.

It's niche hasn't changed from OU, but Mold Breaker is just a fundamentally better ability in this tier than it is in OU thanks to options like Beast Boost/Moxie/Weak Armor/Defiant that make Gyarados a uniquely powerful set-up sweeper, and the fact that it can lend Moxie/Intimidate to it's team prior to mega-evolving gives it a level of team support that other Mold Breaker users can't boast.

I don't know if it's still going to be ban-worthy with Simple gone, and would rather it get suspected rather than quick banned, but to say that Mold Breaker is as much of a problem as M-Gyara itself doesn't make sense. Rampardos, Druddigon and Pangoro are to Gyara what Ninjask and Scolipede are to Blaziken, meaning while Speed Boost is what breaks Blaziken in the same way that Mold Breaker may break M-Gyara, the ability isn't broken on it's own merits. Just a perfect storm scenario.

(Also, MGyara went from what... B~B+ to S-Rank? I like how much development this meta has gone through in such a short amount of time)
 
Stamina / Weak Armor, Moxie, Soul Heart, Sturdy / Psychic Surge, Beast Boost, Defiant

In lieu of Simple, Sturdy / Dazzling could help as you sweep teams. In either case, Power Trip and Stored Power have a niche that isn’t completely gone, and room for Psychic Surge Boosts Stored Power to help make up for lack of Simple.

P.S. I noticed that Unburden in PiC and here don’t pass on to the partner, is this a glitch or coded correctly? Unburden acts as if only the original user can take advantage of it. Unburden can be more dangerous than Speed Boost and other speed abilities, especially if paired with a Surge and Seed item which allows for immediate consumption.
 
Posting to say Weavile deserves better than C-Rank or C+. It's the best flinchhax abuser in the tier by a country mile. I only have replays against the bot, which I understand doesn't speak much (if at all) to Weavile's effectiveness in practice, but I know a few people I've played against on ROM, and who have used Weavile against me as well, can attest to how annoying this can be if you're not prepared for it. One of it's main issues is that it relies heavily on (sometimes less than ideal) team composition, but under the right circumstances it's a devastating mon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-211268 (Stench/Serene Grace/Unburden/Beat Up shenanigans against the bots sun team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-211270 (Same thing, with Sniper over Unburden to take advantage of multi-hit moves higher crit chance, and Weavile holding a choice scarf, bit of a better team comp overall. Against bots weird offense team?)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-211272 (Same thing but Weavile holding a Razor Claw to take better advantage of Sniper, not that crits matter that much with this strat tbh. Excuse the dumb stuff after Weavile died, whipped the team up in 5 seconds and didn't EV anything other than Weavile lol)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-211276 (Tough Claws/Strong Jaw/Technician/Serene Grace/Bite, have to use some less than ideal mons but they all benefit from eachother to the point where they're not dead weight. Lycanroc-dusk is still a fantastic flinchhax abuser with Bite even if it doesn't get STAB thanks to it's fairly huge BP on this team. It also has better coverage thanks to a boosted Fire Fang, which is an even better option than Drill Run now. Bruxish hits hard but is probably the least useful mon here. Overall I think this is one of Weavile's better team options though)

I don't think it's an A~ rank mon, since pressure isn't incredibly useful on offensive builds and it lacks presence on it's own, but it's speed combined with it's specific offensive options means it fills a role that no other mon can fill with the same effectiveness. I think it belongs in B- at the very least.

Edit:

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-211480

Gastro Acid suppresses Magic Guard even if it's not the native ability. I'm not sure if that's intentional, but I honestly think it makes for a healthier metagame since it gives Stall a major weapon against Magic Guard. You can see from the (half of a) team I built here that Toxapex has a fantastic movepool to abuse this. I'm thinking that Tox + Salazzle on a harvest team would be a pretty solid combo.
 
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OM! said:
I noticed that Unburden in PiC and here don’t pass on to the partner, is this a glitch or coded correctly?
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I don't see why it shouldn't work, so I would have to try it out to see what's going on. (Replays won't help unfortunately.)
W0rm said:
Gastro Acid suppresses Magic Guard even if it's not the native ability.
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If I've read the code correctly, it works a bit like Mold Breaker, in that it affects native and shared abilities equally.
 
urkerab said:
I don't see why it shouldn't work, so I would have to try it out to see what's going on. (Replays won't help unfortunately.)

If I've read the code correctly, it works a bit like Mold Breaker, in that it affects native and shared abilities equally.
Click to expand...

Unburden is working fine for me. Might be interacting with another ability in an unintended way?

Also that's great, thanks!
 
If Gastro Acid suppresses all of the foe’s abilities, this can only mean that Core Enforcer does the same. Might be worth running on Zygarde since it’s a pretty anti meta mon rn that can beat Levitate teams as well as Pokemon like Dragonite.
 
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