Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]

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Hey guys. I’d like to discuss something I’m sure you have noticed. Shared Power Monotype is an official meta on the Random Other Metas server. I decided to try and develop this. Haaku. can decide whether or not to take my ideas on.

Here are the bans and clauses I think are fitting.
  • Standard Shared Power clauses EXCEPT
  • Tinted Lens is unbanned. I decided to ban it on flying types. It doesn’t seem as broken on bug or poison teams, though haaku might be opposed to this complex ban.
  • Tapu Lele is banned. This should be self explanatory. I didn’t want to give anti priority and a boost to their stabs to psychic teams. Again, if haaku is opposed to this I will happily remove it.
Will post samples here.

Somethings I would like to look at.

Hustle. Durant, Doublade and Kartana available on the same team, this will probably need to be looked at.

Magic Guard: Looks like it may push fairy teams over the edge. We’ll see though.

Full ban on tinted: Sheer Force, Regen, Adaptability and Tinted on the same team (poison) w/ abusers of this combination like Muk-A and Salazzle may be a bit too much.

Again, if Haaku. says he won’t allow it, then I can’t go through with it. It seems fun though
Hello! Thanks for taking an interest in Monotype SP. being very involved with the Monotype community, I couldn’t help but taking an interest as well. I strongly suggest you check out this post on the Monotype OM megathread. I go over the format as well as some types that would be great.

Monotype SP, like every mono OM, follows the normal Monotype banlist. As a result, Tapu Lele is inherently banned here too as it’s banned in regular Monotype. I’ve actually spoken about this to Eien and the rest of the Monotype leadership about potential bans. The following abilities are banned in Shared Power Monotype (but not regular SP, obviously)

- Magic Guard
- Pressure
- Gale Wings

I’d also like to push for a Malamar and Inkay ban. Contrary is not broken in a Monotype enviroment, since the other users are Bug-, Grass-, and Rock- types. They don’t get access to things like Victini, Latios, and Hydreigon like how Malamar and Inkay does. Other bans that might be considered as well are Kyurem-Black, Adaptability, and others.

I’d like to end the post by saying I have a surprise for later today, so expect an important post soon!
 
On the speed clause:

Is there a way to implement a complex ban for Beast Boost? Because right now Monsters can get a speed boost from Beast Boost and I don't think that is ok, as we banned any other Speed Boosting ability from this tier.
 
On the speed clause:

Is there a way to implement a complex ban for Beast Boost? Because right now Monsters can get a speed boost from Beast Boost and I don't think that is ok, as we banned any other Speed Boosting ability from this tier.
as has been clarified repeatedly through this thread, the speed boosting clause effects abilities which exclusively boost speed. the only things getting speed beast boosts are more fast than anything else anyway.
also, the phrase complex ban means banning a combination of things, like regenerator+emergency exit in this meta (you can use one, or the other, but not both.)

also Haaku. the eexit+regen ban should be posted in the OP of the thread since right now it... isn't
 
as has been clarified repeatedly through this thread, the speed boosting clause effects abilities which exclusively boost speed. the only things getting speed beast boosts are more fast than anything else anyway.
also, the phrase complex ban means banning a combination of things, like regenerator+emergency exit in this meta (you can use one, or the other, but not both.)
Yes, and I honestly think that argumentation is flawed. You make it sound as if the Pokemon that get a Speed Boost by Beast Boost are incredibly fast anyway, and thus the Speed Boost does not matter, when in reality it DOES matter. Combined with Anti-priority you have no way to outspeed it (as even your common Scarfers are usually slower than the Mons that get a +1 in Speed from Beast Boost). I assume you want to say that these Pokemon are fast anyway and don't have high offensive stats. But when you combine these offensive stats with for example Adaptability/ Tough Claws/ Guts, you get a monster that cannot be dealt with. I really don't see why other speed bossing abilities are banned, when increasing Speed by Beast Boost is basically the same.

In addition, I actually mean complex ban, since you could technically implement a rule that in this tier Beast Boost would not increase the Speed, if it is the highest stat, but instead increase the 2nd highest stat.
 
Hey everyone, good afernoon! This is going to be my longest post in a while, so please bear with me! There's a lot to unpack here, so here goes:

Balancing Shared Power: Is It Possible?

Preface and Introduction
Saying it's been a crazy 2 weeks is an understatement. The poll on what path we should take for the future of the metagame is super close, and since the tiering decisions are beginning to get more difficult, I have decided to take action on this and address some things. If we, the community, get stuck on the thought that Shared Power will never be balanced, then it will surely stay that way. If we try hard to make this as fun of a metagame as possible while retaining enough interesting matchups to make it interesting, that will leave everyone happy. I understand that a metagame where every Pokemon has 6 abilities sounds tough to balance, but after removing the problematic abilities, the metagame will begin to undoubtedly diversify. I can't do that by myself, though. The concerns regarding the lack of activity in the existing Shared Power council has been heard loud and clear, and we have decided to take action.

Please welcome and congratulate the newest members of the Shared Power council!!

- SamHPL
- that ivy guy
- Kris

Their passion and contributions towards the tier have not gone unnoticed! They will help me with future tiering decisions as well as to review decisions already made. Let's get straight to business. The whole Magic Guard vs Multiscale ban situation has gone way out of hand. The division this has caused among the community has been unacceptable in my eyes, and we have to do something about it. Magic Guard is unbanned, and Multiscale is banned. After venturing into the ladder, Sturdy does the same thing as Multiscale and is what's enabling Magic Guard to still be broken. As a result, my current stance is to BAN Sturdy.

Next up is Skill Link. It is evident to me that banning Mega Beedrill was a mistake. Skill Link teams continue to dominate even with much less powerful options in Cincinno, Cloyster, and even Ambipom. The sign that this playstyle is still so dominant even with a crucial Pokemon gone is a telling sign that the Pokemon is not what enables the problem to exist, but rather, it's the ability. Skill Link is overshadowing many otherwise interesting playstyles from flourishing simply because it does so overwhelmingly well against opposing offensive teams. It's proven to also adapt to defensive counterplay. Stamina, an otherwise great countermeasure, is useless as the majority of Skill Link teams run Unaware to negate it. Because of this, my stance on this is to BAN Skill Link and UNBAN Mega Beedrill.

Lastly, there has been a lot of controversy concerning the Harvest ban. Harvest teams usually rely on fast Pokemon setting up Substitutes in order for them to activate a berry, usually Starf Berry, reliably. This same Subsitute + Prankster strategy also enables the use for a very dangerous playstyle that relies on PP stalling in tandem with Regenerator and other defensive abilities. Not even APS (anti-priority setup) can stop their presence, as they do not immunify their moves. Since complex bans are always reserved for extreme cases, my stance as of now is to UNBAN Harvest and BAN Substitute.


The Dilemma
Lastly, I want to go more into detail about the whole Magic Guard vs Multiscale situation. The community has deemed Magic Guard and Multiscale to be an obvious problem, but is unsure as to which approach. I will try to analyze both solutions, in an objective matter this time. Magic Guard is insanely good on its own- despite being obviously broken in tandem with Sturdy/Multiscale. It does a lot of things at once. Removing the need for recoil, removing the need for hazards, and removing any and all passive damage is a boon for just about any Pokemon, and it is obvious that Magic Guard is quite centralizing. But is this necessarily a bad thing? Magic Guard keeps many otherwise-broken strategies like Innards Out in check, and despite making certain playstyles like hazard stacking unviable, also makes other playstyles a lot better. An example of this is teams that utilize Solar Power. Sun teams are super fun to play and use and actually have a pretty decent matchup against a lot of the tier's archetype. The removal of Magic Guard would make such a playstyle unviable anymore. Conversely, the metagame doesn't really progress as much when Multiscale is on its own. Multiscale is what enables Regenerator to be so good, because it helps you regain your Multiscale every time you switch out. These infinite switching battles are toxic towards the development of the metagame, and keeping Multiscale does nothing but enhance this.

I've listened to a lot of good points made by Jrsmash9 and others who oppose a Magic Guard ban in Shared Power. Personally, it is my stance that Magic Bounce should not be banned (not right away) if Magic Guard is banned, as this would be a ban based on speculation. I want to thank E4 Flint for helping me realize this, and judging by his experience leading one of the most well-managed OMs on Showdown, it is advice worth listening to. That being said, after viewing both sides of the issue, my personal stance remains to keep Multiscale banned and to allow Magic Guard to remain in Shared Power. I will be open-minded about this during the coming days and listen to opposing opinions as well as keep an eye on the poll. Nobody likes it whenever the word "necessary evil" comes up, but in Magic Guard's case, I believe it is applicable. Despite being the clear best ability in the game, Magic Guard keeps playstyles from becoming out of control, and creates new playstyles on its own. This is worth the cost of the playstyles that Magic Guard does hinder (in my opinion). I'm going to pull up the tiering policy's definition of what "broken" is:

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

Magic Guard, while being good, is not too good relative to the rest of the metagame's abilities, and does not inhibit skillful play to a point where it is almost always rendered irrelevant. While Magic Guard's usage is heavily suggested on most teams, it is completely possible to build an effective team that does not utilize Magic Guard. In reality, the lack of hazards actually means that Magic Guard is intrinsically helping every single team that doesn't use it. It offers hazard protection even when it's not present on the team, due to the fact that hazards are seldom used. In my eyes, this is a sign that Magic Guard is healthy and enables variety in teambuilding. One last thing to note is that Magic Guard has three viable users in Alakazam, Clefable, and Reuniclus that all fit onto 3 distinct playstyles, limiting the lack of diversity that it is argued to place.

C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.

It does not take extraordinarily measures to beat Magic Guard teams. Magic Guard isn't an ability that makes Pokemon hit harder than they should or makes Pokemon harder to take down. What it does do is compress a lot of different things into one ability, similar to Landorus-T in OU. While yes, Landorus-T cannot perform all of its roles at once, Magic Guard performing all of its roles at once is not broken by the philosophy's definition and keeps the metagame stable in a similar way to Landorus-T, which is where the comparison draws from. This concludes my section on the argument. I know it's a lot to go through, but they're my full thoughts on this argument. I repeat, I am open minded about this and I hope you all can be too. This isn't me saying Multiscale is staying banned- this is me inviting you to disagree with me and formally discuss this. To conclude:

Potential For Balance
A metagame where 6 abilities are active at once is inherently going to be very hard to tier. However, if we take action against the abilities that are problematic and ban them, the metagame will be balanced. I understand the matchup-based nature of the metagame is inescapeable, but it is possible to minimize this aspect of Shared Power and allow for there to be enough interesting matchups to keep the metagame interesting. A lot of people seem to forget that the metagame is less than 2 months old, and that we haven't exactly been given time to help us balance things. It's appropriate to give up on a metagame's viability 4 or more months in, but with such a young metagame, I don't think it is. The plan with Shared Power has never been balance, but rather playability. I change my mind on this, and the end goal of my leadership in Shared Power is to have balance present in the metagame.

Furthermore, I have no plans at the moment to let this project of mine die at the end of the month. We have a very dedicated playerbase (shoutouts to DatHeatmor SamHPL Jrsmash9 Level 1000 Weedle Akumeoy W0rm and everyone who I missed) with side projects on it in the future. It's up to the rest of the community as to whether you want to bear with me or not during the coming days and months of this metagame's existence. Our ladder has been amazingly active right now, and I do believe SP has the potential to become something bigger than it currently is. But before any of that comes balance. With the bans listed above, I hope you can all understand the direction the metagame is headed in, and understand that it is an effort directed towards balance. Once again, you are free to disagree with anything and everything I just said, and you are more than welcome to voice your disagreements here. One last thing I wanted to get out of the way:
just fucking click gear grind lol
mega beedrill is banned rip
I really don't appreciate these one-liner posts that have come up in the thread. If you have a simple question, ask the OM room and you will get an answer in seconds. These types of posts do nothing but clutter the thread and make it an eyesore for anyone scrolling through pages, so I kindly ask that posts are put some amount of thought into. A recent example is that they've gotten in the way of the Magic Guard debate, and it actually hides some good points made by both sides. Just don't do it please. With that out of the way, I've said all that I needed to say about this.

To recap:

BAN Sturdy
BAN Skill Link
BAN Substitute
UNBAN Mega Beedrill
UNBAN Harvest


tl;dr: yes it is!
 
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Hey everyone, good afernoon! This is going to be my longest post in a while, so please bear with me! There's a lot to unpack here, so here goes:

Balancing Shared Power: Is It Possible?

Preface and Introduction
Saying it's been a crazy 2 weeks is an understatement. The poll on what path we should take for the future of the metagame is super close, and since the tiering decisions are beginning to get more difficult, I have decided to take action on this and address some things. If we, the community, get stuck on the thought that Shared Power will never be balanced, then it will surely stay that way. If we try hard to make this as fun of a metagame as possible while retaining enough interesting matchups to make it interesting, that will leave everyone happy. I understand that a metagame where every Pokemon has 6 abilities sounds tough to balance, but after removing the problematic abilities, the metagame will begin to undoubtedly diversify. I can't do that by myself, though. The concerns regarding the lack of activity in the existing Shared Power council has been heard loud and clear, and we have decided to take action.

Please welcome and congratulate the newest members of the Shared Power council!!

- SamHPL
- that ivy guy
- Kris

Their passion and contributions towards the tier have not gone unnoticed! They will help me with future tiering decisions as well as to review decisions already made. Let's get straight to business. The whole Magic Guard vs Multiscale ban situation has gone way out of hand. The division this has caused among the community has been unacceptable in my eyes, and we have to do something about it. Currently, Multiscale is unbanned, and Magic Guard is banned. After venturing into the ladder, Sturdy does the same thing as Multiscale and is what's enabling Magic Guard to still be broken. As a result, my current stance is to BAN Sturdy.

Next up is Skill Link. It is evident to me that banning Mega Beedrill was a mistake. Skill Link teams continue to dominate even with much less powerful options in Cincinno, Cloyster, and even Ambipom. The sign that this playstyle is still so dominant even with a crucial Pokemon gone is a telling sign that the Pokemon is not what enables the problem to exist, but rather, it's the ability. Skill Link is overshadowing many otherwise interesting playstyles from flourishing simply because it does so overwhelmingly well against opposing offensive teams. It's proven to also adapt to defensive counterplay. Stamina, an otherwise great countermeasure, is useless as the majority of Skill Link teams run Unaware to negate it. Because of this, my stance on this is to BAN Skill Link and UNBAN Mega Beedrill.

Lastly, there has been a lot of controversy concerning the Harvest ban. Harvest teams usually rely on fast Pokemon setting up Substitutes in order for them to activate a berry, usually Starf Berry, reliably. This same Subsitute + Prankster strategy also enables the use for a very dangerous playstyle that relies on PP stalling in tandem with Regenerator and other defensive abilities. Not even APS (anti-priority setup) can stop their presence, as they do not immunify their moves. Since complex bans are always reserved for extreme cases, my stance as of now is to UNBAN Harvest and BAN Substitute.


The Dilemma
Lastly, I want to go more into detail about the whole Magic Guard vs Multiscale situation. The community has deemed Magic Guard and Multiscale to be an obvious problem, but is unsure as to which approach. I will try to analyze both solutions, in an objective matter this time. Magic Guard is insanely good on its own- despite being obviously broken in tandem with Sturdy/Multiscale. It does a lot of things at once. Removing the need for recoil, removing the need for hazards, and removing any and all passive damage is a boon for just about any Pokemon, and it is obvious that Magic Guard is quite centralizing. But is this necessarily a bad thing? Magic Guard keeps many otherwise-broken strategies like Innards Out in check, and despite making certain playstyles like hazard stacking unviable, also makes other playstyles a lot better. An example of this is teams that utilize Solar Power. Sun teams are super fun to play and use and actually have a pretty decent matchup against a lot of the tier's archetype. The removal of Magic Guard would make such a playstyle unviable anymore. Conversely, the metagame doesn't really progress as much when Multiscale is on its own. Multiscale is what enables Regenerator to be so good, because it helps you regain your Multiscale every time you switch out. These infinite switching battles are toxic towards the development of the metagame, and keeping Multiscale does nothing but enhance this.

I've listened to a lot of good points made by Jrsmash9 and others who oppose a Magic Guard ban in Shared Power. Personally, it is my stance that Magic Bounce should not be banned (not right away) if Magic Guard is banned, as this would be a ban based on speculation. I want to thank E4 Flint for helping me realize this, and judging by his experience leading one of the most well-managed OMs on Showdown, it is advice worth listening to. That being said, after viewing both sides of the issue, my personal stance remains to keep Multiscale banned and to allow Magic Guard to remain in Shared Power. I will be open-minded about this during the coming days and listen to opposing opinions as well as keep an eye on the poll. Nobody likes it whenever the word "necessary evil" comes up, but in Magic Guard's case, I believe it is applicable. Despite being the clear best ability in the game, Magic Guard keeps playstyles from becoming out of control, and creates new playstyles on its own. This is worth the cost of the playstyles that Magic Guard does hinder (in my opinion). I'm going to pull up the tiering policy's definition of what "broken" is:

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

Magic Guard, while being good, is not too good relative to the rest of the metagame's abilities, and does not inhibit skillful play to a point where it is almost always rendered irrelevant. While Magic Guard's usage is heavily suggested on most teams, it is completely possible to build an effective team that does not utilize Magic Guard. In reality, the lack of hazards actually means that Magic Guard is intrinsically helping every single team that doesn't use it. It offers hazard protection even when it's not present on the team, due to the fact that hazards are seldom used. In my eyes, this is a sign that Magic Guard is healthy and enables variety in teambuilding. One last thing to note is that Magic Guard has three viable users in Alakazam, Clefable, and Reuniclus that all fit onto 3 distinct playstyles, limiting the lack of diversity that it is argued to place.

C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.

It does not take extraordinarily measures to beat Magic Guard teams. Magic Guard isn't an ability that makes Pokemon hit harder than they should or makes Pokemon harder to take down. What it does do is compress a lot of different things into one ability, similar to Landorus-T in OU. While yes, Landorus-T cannot perform all of its roles at once, Magic Guard performing all of its roles at once is not broken by the philosophy's definition and keeps the metagame stable in a similar way to Landorus-T, which is where the comparison draws from. This concludes my section on the argument. I know it's a lot to go through, but they're my full thoughts on this argument. I repeat, I am open minded about this and I hope you all can be too. This isn't me saying Multiscale is staying banned- this is me inviting you to disagree with me and formally discuss this. To conclude:

Potential For Balance
A metagame where 6 abilities are active at once is inherently going to be very hard to tier. However, if we take action against the abilities that are problematic and ban them, the metagame will be balanced. I understand the matchup-based nature of the metagame is inescapeable, but it is possible to minimize this aspect of Shared Power and allow for there to be enough interesting matchups to keep the metagame interesting. A lot of people seem to forget that the metagame is less than 2 months old, and that we haven't exactly been given time to help us balance things. It's appropriate to give up on a metagame's viability 4 or more months in, but with such a young metagame, I don't think it is. The plan with Shared Power has never been balance, but rather playability. I change my mind on this, and the end goal of my leadership in Shared Power is to have balance present in the metagame.

Furthermore, I have no plans at the moment to let this project of mine die at the end of the month. We have a very dedicated playerbase (shoutouts to DatHeatmor SamHPL Jrsmash9 Level 1000 Weedle Akumeoy W0rm and everyone who I missed) with side projects on it in the future. It's up to the rest of the community as to whether you want to bear with me or not during the coming days and months of this metagame's existence. Our ladder has been amazingly active right now, and I do believe SP has the potential to become something bigger than it currently is. But before any of that comes balance. With the bans listed above, I hope you can all understand the direction the metagame is headed in, and understand that it is an effort directed towards balance. Once again, you are free to disagree with anything and everything I just said, and you are more than welcome to voice your disagreements here. One last thing I wanted to get out of the way:

I really don't appreciate these one-liner posts that have come up in the thread. If you have a simple question, ask the OM room and you will get an answer in seconds. These types of posts do nothing but clutter the thread and make it an eyesore for anyone scrolling through pages, so I kindly ask that posts are put some amount of thought into. A recent example is that they've gotten in the way of the Magic Guard debate, and it actually hides some good points made by both sides. Just don't do it please. With that out of the way, I've said all that I needed to say about this.

To recap:

BAN Sturdy
BAN Skill Link
BAN Substitute
UNBAN Mega Beedrill
UNBAN Harvest


tl;dr: yes
Don't agree on a Substitute ban. Feels like its sort of the easy man's escape route from the problem, but if it can't be helped, so be it. rest in pieces subpunch sets

On the brighter side, everything else there looks either great from my short experiences (Sturdy/Skill Link being gone, MBee returning) or me having no thoughts currently (Harvest unban). Sturdy wasn't fun to play against in the one battle I found it, and Skill Link I haven't run into but I've sure heard the voices of everyone louder than an Exploud's Boombirst.

And you actually are trying to clean up one liners which i see occasionally roaming around in other OM threads.

Good post, this only makes me want to go do more SP stuf.
 
I would still say that a Full team of sashes with Magic Guard wins against any offensive team, unless they have Skill Link. This is what I try to argue for. Yes, all those Mons lose their items in favor of a Focus Sash, but with this, you almost always win against any other offensive team that isn't fully sashed, since Skill Link is now banned. As long as the combination of Sash + Magic Guard is around, those teams essentially have 12 offensive Mons against other offensive Teams and (Hyper) Offense basically loses its variety.
 

Ivy

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For what it's worth, the only thing stopping a complex ban of Prankster ++ Substitute is the general reluctance to implement those besides extreme circumstances like the game-breaking level 1 Regenerator / Wimp Out. It's not impossible, but relatively unlikely without some resounding support.
 
Since apparently complex bans are smogon blasphemy, we're not going to be able to do bans like Substitute + Prankster or Magic Guard + Sturdy/Multiscale/Focus Sash. That forces us to just completely ban abilities that are balanced on their own. Because of this, I completely agree with Haaku's post. I believe that banning Magic Guard just cannot happen because of what it provides. Not only does it prevent Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin and Innards Out (which would be automatically banned if Mguard was ever banned), but it also helps so many other things, such as Mind Blown, Solar Power, Life Orb, Recoil Moves, High Jump Kick, and more. While Gale Wings teams are weak due to Bruxish etc, they would be totally unviable without Magic Guard, which gives them no recoil Brave Birds as well as immunity to hazards, which are Talonflame's bane. So banning Magic Guard is just impossible, and I think Haaku's comparison to Lando-T perfectly sums it up.

Now, even though we can't do complex bans, I'd still like to suggest a few in case TI decides that we can have them. Some are just complete bans, others limit sharing to a pokemon or of the ability.

  • Prankster + Substitute (If you have Substitute Prankster does not share to you, even if you're the host of Prankster)
  • Magic Guard/Magic Bounce + Regenerator (Regenerator will not share and Magic Guard/Magic Bounce will not share to the mon with Regenerator)
  • Magic Guard/Magic Bounce + Multiscale/Sturdy/Focus Sash (Multiscale/Sturdy will not share and Magic Guard/Magic Bounce will not share to the mon with Multiscale/Sturdy)
  • Skill Link + Technician (You cannot have both on your team at the same time)
  • Mega Beedrill + Pin Missile + Skill Link/Technician (Mega Beedrill cannot have Pin Missile and receive the abilities Skill Link or Technician at the same time)
  • Cheek Pouch + Starf Berry + Harvest (If you hold a Starf Berry neither ability will share to you, even if you're the host)
  • Potentially make Magic Guard not share the immunity to hazards (I prefer banning it with Multiscale/Sturdy/Sash but this is an option)
  • Water Bubble only shares halving Fire and immunity to Burn
  • Poison Heal + Quick Feet (I don't mind the ban on speed boosting abilities, but if Quick Feet were unbanned this could help)
 
Hum... I'm surprised that we speak about banning skill link and sturdy, without mentionning other abilities. I think that skill link is that good because it's amazing to beat substitutes, sturdies / sashes (and multiscale). (And I guess that we are about to ask a sort of item clause for sashes or ban MG soon.)

So, on paper, with Sturdies and sashes/MG away, the power Skill link gives doesn't seem that much more broken than Guts+Toxic Boost.
(125 BP moves, with x1.3 from LO and x1.5 from technician -> 243 ;
110 BP move with x1.5 from Guts and x1.5 from TB -> 247,5 ;
- with Close Comat and Facade being 120 and 140, I feel this "110 BP" makes a relevant "overall" approximation).

I don't think that the obligation to run protect will makes such a difference (and this slot loss gives you other benefits compared to SL, like avoiding para / sleep, and being able to stall Trick room turns better). Thus I don't really understand why we are considering banning Skill Link without considering TB+Guts.
 
A short, additional announcement: aGroove has stepped down from the Shared Power council. He was responsible for helping me put everything together during the early days of the metagame, but recently, he hasn’t had the time he used to. Please thank him for everything he’s done for the tier!

I want the spotlight of the discussion to be the whole Multiscale vs Magic Guard ban situation. I do support a complex ban of Prankster + Substitute, but I have been personally told that it can’t happen. A Substitute ban hurts the meta a little less than a Prankster ban, so it is the option I personally stand on.
 
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 396-468 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 440-518 (137.9 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 365-430 (113 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 484-570 (122.8 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gliscor: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

rn the only thing i can see walling is flash fire, but even then shadow ball hits like a truck
ban magic guard pls
 
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 396-468 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 440-518 (137.9 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 365-430 (113 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 484-570 (122.8 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gliscor: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

rn the only thing i can see walling is flash fire, but even then shadow ball hits like a truck
ban magic guard pls
Sash spam everywhere basically destroys this, as do resists. For Dragonite you had to give it +2, completely negating that nice resist. Tyranitar doesn't seem super common, but it totally destroys Blacephalon.
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 122-144 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
And another staple on stall, Milotic, completely counters it as well.
252 SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Milotic: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now while Scarf does allow it to outspeed a lot of HO, it's still weak to faster scarf users. Scarf Durant, which is extremely common, outspeeds and kills with Stone Edge or Crunch. So do Scarf Kartana and Latios. Blaziken-Mega barely lives a Shadow Ball and kills with Flare Blitz, and it outspeeds non Scarf at +1 and beats Sturdy Blacephalon by outspeeding at +2. So while it's extremely good on paper, it loses to many things that are actually run. Besides, if it was deemed overpowered then banning Mind Blown would be the solution, not Magic Guard. And don't forget, many other recoil moves have the same power. High Jump Kick just becomes a 130 power 90% accuracy move. Head Smash is also 150 power, and Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, and the others have 120 power. Victini isn't broken and it gets a 180 power move AND boosts.
 
2 Things I want to mention right now:

1. There is the argument that banning Magic Guard will lead to a lot of people running Magic Bounce for their Sashes/ MS/ Sturdy instead, which is probably true. For that, most people will run Mold Breaker Excadrill just to set up Rocks, which would be too centralizing to some. I wanted to mention in regards to this that almost every team right now runs some form of Priority prevention (Lele/ Tsareena/ Bruxish) and when it comes to keeping their Sturdy, it is MG Alakazam/ Clefable. What I'm trying to say is: just because we are either directly or indirectly forced to use a specific Pokemon on every team of ours is not really an argument, since we are in this situation right now, too. And in the case of priority prevention I don't really see a way around this.

2. Why is Smogon generally so adamant about Complex Bans? I understand the point, that we could technically invent a plethora of Complex Bans, if we started with arguments like "Is LV75 Lugia balanced in OU?", "Isn't Blaze Blaziken innocent?", "Aegislash without King's Shield could totally be OU!", but this is clearly not what we aim for. We generally agree that we want to create a "balanced" Meta Game with the least amount of necessary Bans to make this happen. In some cases it is quite easy to spot the problem and remove it (here the abilities, that are problematic, cannot be shared), in other cases, it is quite difficult to spot them. On the whole Harvest issue, we generally agree that Sub + Prankster is the problem (we figured out Starf Berry and Harvest, but it turned out, that they were not the issue), so why not create a complex ban for this case? I mean, it is not like we would create some silly justifications just to play certain strategies in this tier, we just want to spot the problem and find the easiest possible solution to that. I understand that starting with stuff like "only 2 Mons are allowed to be sashed" etc. would become too complicated. But just implementing like 3 to 4 complex bans for a tier this massive in size doesn't really sound that bad in the long run.
 
This meta would never be balanced if we let 4 offensive abilities combo toguether. A balanced team would never be able to defend properly against something like hustle + no guard + adaptability + technichian, so their best strategy is hit faster and break focus sash/study, otherwise they need to rely on offense (and focus sashes) or stall. Recall that i just selected 4 random abilities, i could have selected aerialite, guts, tough claws, etc. Neither of those 4 abilities given are broken, but the combination of the four gives a X 3 multiplier on any weak physical stab attack, and that is just crazy.

My propose of solution for a balanced meta is allow abilities that can penalice those combos. One example (i am not asking for this, this is just an EXAMPLE) is the following one

-Unban fur coat and/or fluffy
-Unban Zekrom


With fluffy/fur coat unbanned most physical HO teams would be hindered to the point that any team with 1 of those abilities and a few bulky sweepers can just tank hits and clean everything. That will force those teams to run fluffy/fur coat for themselves and also some special attacker or a mold breaker (for that reason i add Zekrom). Also, offensive teams cannot rely just on fluffy/fur coat to check Kyurem-B/Zekrom. That just restrict a bit their teambuilding possibilities, preventing them for running the 4 abilities mentioned above at the same time and being competitive with just that.

Another example (again, i am not asking for this): Allow 1 batton passer per team (this will force most teams to run prankster and maybe unawere to avoid getting rekt by an extreme evo Kyurem B or some shell smasher).

Forcing abilities/pokemon to restric teambuilding, while may sound a bit unhealthy, is a good way to reduce the amount of abilities of those combos. That doesnt mean that every team would need to use that ability. Defensive teams do not need anti priority but in a offensive team that is something very important (some teams carry 1 or 2 priority moves to punish lack of anti priority, and that works).

This is my proposal. I am open to hear opinions and suggestions
 
I've listened to a lot of good points made by Jrsmash9 and others who oppose a Magic Guard ban in Shared Power.
Uhh, this is nitpicky, but Jrsmash9 has a post at the top of the last page advocating FOR a Magic Guard ban.

Anyway, the Skill Link ban and mega-bee unban, along with the sturdy ban, are much needed and I appreciate how swift you've been in trying to take action on things. That being said, the substitute ban is really weird to me and I'm not sure if it's the right approach vs a straight up harvest ban. Yes, substitute + prankster is irritating regardless of whether or not the opponent has harvest, but I really don't think it's broken without it. Either way, it doesn't have a hugely negative impact on the meta as you've said, so I think it can probably slide.
 
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This meta would never be balanced if we let 4 offensive abilities combo toguether. A balanced team would never be able to defend properly against something like hustle + no guard + adaptability + technichian, so their best strategy is hit faster and break focus sash/study, otherwise they need to rely on offense (and focus sashes) or stall. Recall that i just selected 4 random abilities, i could have selected aerialite, guts, tough claws, etc. Neither of those 4 abilities given are broken, but the combination of the four gives a X 3 multiplier on any weak physical stab attack, and that is just crazy.

My propose of solution for a balanced meta is allow abilities that can penalice those combos. One example (i am not asking for this, this is just an EXAMPLE) is the following one

-Unban fur coat and/or fluffy
-Unban Zekrom


With fluffy/fur coat unbanned most physical HO teams would be hindered to the point that any team with 1 of those abilities and a few bulky sweepers can just tank hits and clean everything. That will force those teams to run fluffy/fur coat for themselves and also some special attacker or a mold breaker (for that reason i add Zekrom). Also, offensive teams cannot rely just on fluffy/fur coat to check Kyurem-B/Zekrom. That just restrict a bit their teambuilding possibilities, preventing them for running the 4 abilities mentioned above at the same time and being competitive with just that.

Another example (again, i am not asking for this): Allow 1 batton passer per team (this will force most teams to run prankster and maybe unawere to avoid getting rekt by an extreme evo Kyurem B or some shell smasher).

Forcing abilities/pokemon to restric teambuilding, while may sound a bit unhealthy, is a good way to reduce the amount of abilities of those combos. That doesnt mean that every team would need to use that ability. Defensive teams do not need anti priority but in a offensive team that is something very important (some teams carry 1 or 2 priority moves to punish lack of anti priority, and that works).

This is my proposal. I am open to hear opinions and suggestions
First of all, if you've played the metagame you'd know that 4 hard hitting abilities aren't broken and lose to a lot of faster teams as well as some stall. You cannot fit 4 hard hitting abilities on a team while including Magic Guard and Unaware (for Stamina). And the 4 abilities you listed give a 3x boost to a 60 power physical move. Not really so impressive when you consider that it just becomes effectively 180 power, which pales in comparison to V-Create, boosted Mind Blown, Boomburst, Facade, and more. Yet those things do not destroy the metagame because of their speed checks. Bruxish and Lele prevent priority, and any mon that can take a hit (and many can) just beats these mons 1v1. Now, as for banning Zekrom, it's a horrible idea to introduce an even better Kyurem-Black. There is no lack of priority, and forcing teams to dedicate slots to counter broken strategies is unhealthy and limits diversity. I hope you realize that an unaware mon will not be able to stop Kyurem-Black, and Prankster Haze just loses to Clear Body, which I probably would run if we unbanned Baton Pass. Unbanning Fluffy and Fur Coat is a horrible idea when you consider the fact that the only abilities that bring physical attacks back up to neutral are Huge/Pure Power and Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Teravolt, which are all banned. from sharing.
 
First of all, if you've played the metagame you'd know that 4 hard hitting abilities aren't broken and lose to a lot of faster teams as well as some stall
I wrote that on my second line. Something broken is beaten by something more broken.

Not really so impressive when you consider that it just becomes effectively 180 power
brelom hiting just 3 bullet seed gives you a 225 BP attack. Forguet about technician, the other 3 abilities gives you a X2 multiplier on any physical stab attack, and also perfect accuaracy. Add though claws instead of technician and you got X2,66 multiplier on stab contact moves

Now, as for banning Zekrom, it's a horrible idea to introduce an even better Kyurem-Black. There is no lack of priority, and forcing teams to dedicate slots to counter broken strategies is unhealthy and limits diversity
As i said in my post, i am well aware that forcing teams to dedicate slots to counter something threatening may sound unhealty, but the whole thing is that it restricts the amount of abilities that can be chained togueter. Fur coat was an exageration, but Fluffy only works on contact moves, nobody will run 4 offensive abilities if they just got 1.33 multiplier. They will remove some of those abilities and they will add more special attackers or a good mold breaker. Alakazam/tapu lele can carry Hp fire to punish teams with lack of fire absorb, and then you have 2 defensive abilities that are neutering back contact stab moves on a No guard + gustle + adaptability combo, you are still weak to stone edge, earthquake, some multi hit moves, special attacks and mold breakers. And when you add defensive abilities, you are not choosing your opponents attacks, he can bypass those defenses if he has a balanced team, it is a different situation than when you are attacking (in other words, swords dance is a better move than iron defense).

and Prankster Haze just loses to Clear Body
You got me here, lol. Ok, allowing BP is a bad idea

I am not proposing those ideas, they are just examples, sure someone can came up with better ideas than mine, i hope so. For now, I dont think fluffy is THAT terrible, Zekrom doesnt like to get locked into attacks and is relatively slow, sure a 130 BP stab is a bit too much, but i think it can help teams against stall and it was put there as a compensation to fluffy.

Again, my proposal is simple: allow things that force teams to prepare for them, that will force teams to be more balanced defensively and ofensively. By punishing diversity we can stop a lot of broken combinations from emerging, and that is a price i think we need to pay to balance a crazy metagame like this. Assimetric games that give you one millon options to play with wont be balanced unless 99,99% of those options are unviable. I know someone can dislike my proposal, and i am not saying that you have to agree with me, but saying
forcing teams to dedicate slots to counter broken strategies is unhealthy and limits diversity
means you didnt understand what i was trying to say.

Something has to be done to balance the meta, baning 4 or 5 things is ok to reach near perfect balance, but no one want to make 20 bans/ complex bans. And if we start baning things because of being broken without thinking on the consecuences, then something broken will appear in the future because of the crazy nature of this meta.
 
I wrote that on my second line. Something broken is beaten by something more broken.



brelom hiting just 3 bullet seed gives you a 225 BP attack. Forguet about technician, the other 3 abilities gives you a X2 multiplier on any physical stab attack, and also perfect accuaracy. Add though claws instead of technician and you got X2,66 multiplier on stab contact moves



As i said in my post, i am well aware that forcing teams to dedicate slots to counter something threatening may sound unhealty, but the whole thing is that it restricts the amount of abilities that can be chained togueter. Fur coat was an exageration, but Fluffy only works on contact moves, nobody will run 4 offensive abilities if they just got 1.33 multiplier. They will remove some of those abilities and they will add more special attackers or a good mold breaker. Alakazam/tapu lele can carry Hp fire to punish teams with lack of fire absorb, and then you have 2 defensive abilities that are neutering back contact stab moves on a No guard + gustle + adaptability combo, you are still weak to stone edge, earthquake, some multi hit moves, special attacks and mold breakers. And when you add defensive abilities, you are not choosing your opponents attacks, he can bypass those defenses if he has a balanced team, it is a different situation than when you are attacking (in other words, swords dance is a better move than iron defense).


You got me here, lol. Ok, allowing BP is a bad idea

I am not proposing those ideas, they are just examples, sure someone can came up with better ideas than mine, i hope so. For now, I dont think fluffy is THAT terrible, Zekrom doesnt like to get locked into attacks and is relatively slow, sure a 130 BP stab is a bit too much, but i think it can help teams against stall and it was put there as a compensation to fluffy.

Again, my proposal is simple: allow things that force teams to prepare for them, that will force teams to be more balanced defensively and ofensively. By punishing diversity we can stop a lot of broken combinations from emerging, and that is a price i think we need to pay to balance a crazy metagame like this. Assimetric games that give you one millon options to play with wont be balanced unless 99,99% of those options are unviable. I know someone can dislike my proposal, and i am not saying that you have to agree with me, but saying

means you didnt understand what i was trying to say.

Something has to be done to balance the meta, baning 4 or 5 things is ok to reach near perfect balance, but no one want to make 20 bans/ complex bans. And if we start baning things because of being broken without thinking on the consecuences, then something broken will appear in the future because of the crazy nature of this meta.

Honestly, let's just let Shared Power stabilize a little bit. That's my view.

I haven't played since the
"
BAN Sturdy
BAN Skill Link
BAN Substitute
UNBAN Mega Beedrill
UNBAN Harvest"


from Haaku, but this looks pretty big. Sturdy and Skill link are huge, Harvest is back (but I don't suspect itll be used much without Subs to abuse Cheek Pouch), and Mega Bee is back. I can say myself that I'll be happy to click Refrigerate Returns and meme around like that, but then again I'm bad at nearly every OM sooooooo


I think we should experiment with what SP is gonna settle into over the next two, three, or more days, then go from there.
 
138 votes is far more than the amount I expected. As such, I am announcing that the poll closes in one hour. Please vote if you haven’t!

On a side note, are the news constraints already implemented on Showdown?
Those were my opinions on what we should ban at the time, but after consultation with the new Shared Power consult, this isn’t final. I’m making a post very soon (today or tomorrow) detailing the new bans.
 
So I just want to know why mega beedrill is banned when it is literally a one shot mon without sturdy. It's my favorite pokemon and I use it in literally every meta. you have things like magic guard, hustle, adaptability, no guard, dazzling, mega blaziken, in the meta but mega bee is banned why? because of technitian, skill link? there is literally no valid reason for mega beedrill being banned. Why are you allowing more broken things and banning a mon that isn't broken when it is the ability in itself that is the problem. Even things like bulky innards out teams with regen and counter etc which is literally impossible to beat. You either die to counter or suicide by killing the pokemon. I don't post to anything really but this is pissing me off. Fix what needs to be fixed for shit's sake and not ban a pokemon because of other pokemons abusive abilities. If that is the reason for banning mega bee then get rid of all the pokemon I can think of that are way worst ...
 
Shared Power Stage 2
Pray For Me
Due to the sheer amount of votes in the thread, I have decided that I might as well make this a formal Suspect Test. After a long discussion with the current council members, we believe that the results are satisfactory and that they will help towards balancing the metagame in the long con. Without further ado, here are the much-expected results of the decision that will change the meta:

Magic Guard

BAN: 80
DNB: 61

Even though a 57% majority is lower than that of the SP Stage 1 suspect, we believe it is enough to guide us in the direction the community wants us to take. After talking with SamHPL Kris that ivy guy and aGroove, I have personally changed my mind on what decision makes the most sense myself. While banning Magic Guard is a tough choice, it is essential towards the future of the metagame. Magic Guard enables abilities that are normally fine (like Sturdy) to be completely broken, and the overcentralization of this ability is something toxic towards the development of the metagame. It is unknown whether Magic Bounce or even Multiscale are broken without Magic Guard, but it is a safe assessment to make. The council will not be banning Multiscale and instead will ban Magic Guard. So, after a long time of discussion and mistakes, Magic Guard has been BANNED from sharing in Shared Power! Innards Out is also banned for obvious reasons.


Multiscale

BAN: 61
DNB: 80

Conversely, the rest of the community voted to ban Multiscale instead, but with only a 43% of players voting to ban it, it just wasn’t enough. Because of this. Multiscale has been UNBANNED from Shared Power. This ability may still be looked at in the future, but the council decided that it does not appear to be a huge probem at the moment, and we have decided to not base bans on a metagame that doesn’t exist yet. Because of this, Multiscale remains for now.


Magic Bounce

BAN: 36
DNB: 44

With less than half of the divided Magic Guard votes voting to ban Magic Bounce also, Magic Bounce remains UNBANNED. This may also become a problem later on. Currently, teams will feel the need to include a Mold Breaker Steath Rock Pokemon solely to bypass the fact that these teams are still immune to a large portion of passive damage. We will see if Magic Bounce proves to be an equally broken replacement for Magic Guard, but it remains unbanned for now. Lastly, the council has decided to move forward with some of the bans I proposed myself a couple of posts ago. Those are the following.

Now that the results from the suspect test are in, here are the council bans:

Skill Link
- Mega Beedrill has proven to not be the enabler of the ultimate problem- Skill Link. These teams only took a slight hit from Mega Beedrill’s loss and continue to invalidate many defensive and offensive archetypes alike. I believe I’ve said everything I have to say in the post earlier, but I’m just gonna conclude this with the news that Skill Link has been BANNED from sharing in Shared Power. Moving on to the next topic, but should be pretty obvious:

Mega Beedrill
- The sole factor making Mega Beedrill a broken Pokemon in Shared Power was Skill Link. Now that it is eliminated from the metagame, it’s my pleasure to announce to announce that Mega Beedrill has been UNBANNED from Shared Power. Free mega bee!!

Prankster + Substitute
- The combination of Prankster and Substitute allows for two broken elements of the metagame. The first one is the recently discovered Substitute + Prankster Pressure Stall, which is a defensive metagame almost impossible to break for certain playstyles. With Skill Link, one of the only ways to deal with this strategy, gone from the metagame, it has become an even bigger problem. Another playstyle that can Combat these Pressure stall teams is Triage, but it’s not feasible to expect every single team to run it and only enhances the matchup based nature of the metagame. The other abuser of this combination is Harvest teams. Harvest teams rely on setting up fast Substitutes in order to activate berries and sweep while the opponent cannot do anything back since they run APS. Banning the combination of Prankster + Substitute, despite being a very unwanted complex ban, kills two birds with one stone. Neither element is even the least broken here, but the combination of both is gamebreaking. It is for these reasons that the combination of any Pokemon with Prankster + any Pokemon with Substitute is now BANNED. One very last thing to get out of the way:

Harvest
- Harvest teams are a lot more difficult to pull off because of the ban above. While Starf Berry remains to be a pretty dumb element in Shared Power, it is not concerningly problematic at this point and that’s why Harvest has been UNBANNED from Shared Power.


I understand that this is an incredibly lot to digest, but those are the new Shared Power bans! If you haven’t already, I strongly suggest reading this post as it goes in-depth into our “mission” to balance the Shared Power metagame this month. While my stance at that time was to keep Magic Guard unbanned, the new council and I have come into an unanimous decision- one that will ultimately benefit the metagame. Shared Power is a very hard metagame to tier, and we’re doing everything within our abilities to do so. The decision to unban Magic Guard wasn’t an easy one. There was a legitimate argument for either side of the spectrum, and in the end, we let the community decide where we should take the metagame. In case anything was missed:

Magic Guard has been BANNED
Skill Link has been BANNED
Prankster + Substitute has been BANNED
Innards Out has been BANNED
Multiscale has been UNBANNED
Mega Beedrill has been UNBANNED
Harvest has been UNBANED

Tagging Kris to implement this on main!
So I just want to know why mega beedrill is banned
Good timing. Enjoy!
 
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